williams1996
Alba gu bràth
- Location
- Scotland
Im just gonna sit this vote out since giving her and not giving her the press have advantages and i cant make my mind up.
The Game of Crusading Thrones, Self-Insert Edition (GoT CK2)
- Thread starter notbirdofprey
- Start date
- Fantasy
- Location
- UK
1. Yes, torture is normal, as is spying. Which is the reason why basically throwing a tantrum with the stormlands is stupid and self-defeating.
2. No, the printing press won't remain a secret. The maesters and others are already trying to figure it out. Woodcuts and engravings were common in Europe long before printing presses with movable type were invented. The idea of having the letters be separate from each other is actually a pretty logical next step. Added to that, the printing press with moveable type was actually invented completely independently in China hundreds of years earlier. It's not impossible to figure out something separately, even without having a massive incentive to do so.
Added to that, we know that other powers will want it and will make their own attempts. By not offering a diplomatic means of acquiring it, we'll also be leaving Argella no option but to use even more spies if she wants to get it. The printing press won't stop being useful, and sooner or later it will become public knowledge, and then she'll have it while we'll have made an enemy.
Lastly, as I said, once our own bureaucracy is built up we will likely be spreading the technology and making it public anyway, since it has the potential to help accelerate and precipitate enormous social, economic, and technological growth and development which would benefit us, and foster the kind of progress we want. As such, you're basically throwing a tantrum about something that we would eventually have shared anyway, which makes it even more pointless. There is genuinely no reason to self-sabotage like this.
3. Yes, we need to keep our own interests in mind, which is exactly why I'm suggesting sharing the Printing Press with her, because gaining an ally against Harren and Loren is vastly more important than keeping a temporary advantage which isn't even a strategic resource or military technology, like gunpowder or whatever. What you are suggesting will directly harm us.
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If I combine all the "Send a Printing Press" votes, which I think is fair, they win by 1.
1. And what will happen the next time Argella wants something, something we're not at all inclined to give to her?
2. No, it is not. We're spying on each other, and thank Dice we have the better spies so we know who's watching us. But, where we have the goodwill to pursue the alliance, she's trying to steal from us.
3. ... I'm not arguing to visit upon Argella what Tywin did to the Reynes. It was just an example of an eye for an eye that's popular in that kind of society. Calm down.
Have we voted to do that? Show me, please.
Ask Britain how Chamberlain's appeasement worked out for them, lol.
- Location
- UK
@Redhead222 @Seyum @Chacmon @The Way It Is @One Autumn Leaf @Fallout5368 @Elder Haman @Gingganz @Resonant
You guys are all voting for the same thing, but your votes are split, even though you actually have as many people backing your core option as the other two main options. I would really suggest that you harmonise and sort your votes out, maybe by approval voting for each other or something.
@Thule @Rui
You guys are voting for an option which only has two votes backing it in total, and which can't possibly win at this stage. You may wish to change your votes to back something else.
You guys are all voting for the same thing, but your votes are split, even though you actually have as many people backing your core option as the other two main options. I would really suggest that you harmonise and sort your votes out, maybe by approval voting for each other or something.
@Thule @Rui
You guys are voting for an option which only has two votes backing it in total, and which can't possibly win at this stage. You may wish to change your votes to back something else.
I'm not sure that's the case - one person is voting for two of those, so I think it adds up to 9. In other words, we're currently in a three way tie.
In that case I'll stick with the winning vote:
[X] Send her a printing press.
-[X] Claim it was a gift and an attempt to further the flow of knowledge
-[X] Request the copies of books in Storms End and the Stormlands to further this flow and better future relations.
-[X] The spies are not to be mentioned. At all. This is a gift.
Dude, Godwin's law. We are not dealing with Hitler.
QM has said the votes to send the press for books without revealing spies will be counted together, so actually, that is current winning vote.
- Location
- UK
The next time Argella wants something, she'll know to try asking first. And if we don't want to give it to her then we'll have advance warning that she might want to steal it. She'll also know that if she wants more of what we have in future, and if she wants our cooperation, then she won't try stealing, or else she'll miss out.
Dude, we'd totally have tried to steal from her and others if we knew they had revolutionary technological advances. The fact we haven't done so is simply because there's been no opportunity. It doesn't mean that were somehow morally superior here - did you forget that we literally have a bunch of professional assassins on our payroll?
Added to that, you're also making a big mistake by thinking that this means there's no "goodwill". It isn't malicious or personal in the slightest. It's great power politics and the realities of rule. As I have repeatedly said, allies do this kind of thing to each other all the time, and making a fuss, and missing out on the opportunity for an ally against Harren and Loren, is stupid.
Yes, an eye for an eye is popular, but you seemed to have missed the part about how that also inspires grudges and hostility. Just because it's normal doesn't mean it's something that won't cause a grudge.
That's basically your plan dude. It has an explicit risk of genuinely upsetting her and causing her to hold a grudge, and more broadly it will also lead to frostier relations, since killing people isn't exactly something that engenders warmth or encourages alliances. At the very least it will make negotiating any sort of agreement horrendously awkward, if nothing else.
That's a pretty ridiculous and dishonest comparison. Hitler had literally written a book that might as well have been entitled "I want to invade and conquer Eastern Europe", where he laid out all his political ideas in advance, and it was entirely predictable that he would renege.
If you want a genuine comparison, look at Germany's reaction to the news that the NSA had hacked her phone. Did she frostily break off relations? No, because that would have been idiotic and self-defeating, and would have actively harmed Germany's interests by worsening relations with the US, and getting in the ways of other areas where there could be positive and beneficial cooperation.
How will she know, if her intrigue check fails and she does not suspect that we traded the printing press for the books, because our spies knew she would attempt to steal it? What if the spies change the cipher? What if in the future she doesn't have anything else we would value, and attempts to steal our shit anyway?
Sure. But I'd feel bad about it cause she would be our ally. The point is, we didn't.
I don't want to make a fuss. I want to act as if we didn't uncover her complicity. I want her to fail.
I feel like I'm not being very clear. If we just repel/kill the thieves and go to the negotiating table acting like we don't know Argella sent them, how will that hurt relationships? No accusations. No blame. We don't intimate that she orchestrated it. She'll write it off as a bad investment.
One more time. Stop the theft, because the Starks are not incompetent morons, and act like we didn't discover who sent them so as not to damage diplomatic relations with the Stormlands.
And don't forget. She needs us more than we need her. Her father is off adventuring in Essos with their army and Harren is within spitting distance.
But the tally clearly shows which way the wind is blowing so... 🤷♂️
But... you are not voting for a stopping the theft subtly. You're voting to be blatant about it. The difference between the blatant and the subtle choice is that blatant means revealing we caught her spies. Subtle is trying to conceal we caught her spies.
Most of this nobles understand only the diplomacy from a strong position,they dont care about compromise and goodwill.They want to take as much as possible,without caring about others.Dont try to put 21 century values on an medieval world.
In books Hoster Tully refused to help the rebels if they dont marry his daughters,one of the rebels being the son of his previous ally(ned) and the other being older then him(jon).
Tully didnt care about the losses ned suffered or the age of jon,he only wanted power,no matter previous deals or his childrens lives or happines.
This is the world and mentality this quest is based on.It isnt 21 century were goodwill and moderation win the day.All of the lords are like Hitler or Stalin,they want only power and to conquer as much as possible.
And if in 8000 years they didnt ivent the printing press,they wouldnt inventing it right now.And working with a printing press and understanting how it works and it is build is something totally different.So no matter if they gain any worker,if they dont have the plans for it,they still are stuck.
Chinese printing press was different then the Gutemberg one,they used wood cilinders with characters on them,not moving letters.
We choose to give concret to the dustins(a very stupid decision) and they ignored our commands and teoretically they must obey us.So what make you believe that the stormlands wont use the printing press to gain an advantage?
And if she thinks that we didnt catch her spies,next time may try an assasination,or to incite rebelion or who knows what she may think of bc she thinks that her spies were secure
And then how will react?
In books Hoster Tully refused to help the rebels if they dont marry his daughters,one of the rebels being the son of his previous ally(ned) and the other being older then him(jon).
Tully didnt care about the losses ned suffered or the age of jon,he only wanted power,no matter previous deals or his childrens lives or happines.
This is the world and mentality this quest is based on.It isnt 21 century were goodwill and moderation win the day.All of the lords are like Hitler or Stalin,they want only power and to conquer as much as possible.
And if in 8000 years they didnt ivent the printing press,they wouldnt inventing it right now.And working with a printing press and understanting how it works and it is build is something totally different.So no matter if they gain any worker,if they dont have the plans for it,they still are stuck.
Chinese printing press was different then the Gutemberg one,they used wood cilinders with characters on them,not moving letters.
We choose to give concret to the dustins(a very stupid decision) and they ignored our commands and teoretically they must obey us.So what make you believe that the stormlands wont use the printing press to gain an advantage?
And if she thinks that we didnt catch her spies,next time may try an assasination,or to incite rebelion or who knows what she may think of bc she thinks that her spies were secure
And then how will react?
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If we are honest giving argella the press is rewarding bad behaviour, all it signals is yeah send spies to steal from me and I will give you what you want . It shows we are a weak king.
By stopping the theft we can push for better trade concessions from the stormlands in exchange or do the same as we are doing to the citadel and copy their books for them.
By stopping the theft we can push for better trade concessions from the stormlands in exchange or do the same as we are doing to the citadel and copy their books for them.
If she doesn't realize you know about her spies, then the message is that you are willing to trade and are fairly reasonable.
If she does realize you know about the spies, then the message would vary somewhat depending on how she interprets it.
If she does realize you know about the spies, then the message would vary somewhat depending on how she interprets it.
- Location
- Tarn-Vedra
[X] Plan: Friendly Reveal
Inserted tally. Vote closed, I flipped a coin to decide the winter.
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Currently tied 10 in favor of sending a printing press and revealing that we know about her spies and her plan to steal the press, and 10 in favor of sending the printing press, but presenting it as a gift and not revealing that we know about her spies.
I encourage people to vote for not revealing that we know about her spies, because if we pass the 50 DC check we will be able to read their mail and know about what she is doing in our Kingdom.
I encourage people to vote for not revealing that we know about her spies, because if we pass the 50 DC check we will be able to read their mail and know about what she is doing in our Kingdom.
- Location
- United States
If we do get the subtle approach can we use the speech @One Autumn Leaf and I made or will that have to be thrown out?
Special Vote Results
With your wife's help, you spend several hours carefully crafting a missive, working long into the night. Your first attempt is discarded as too lecturing, the second as too whiny. Your third and fourth attempts are no better, but after several hours your sixth attempt is satisfactory.
(The Letter: 1d100+20 (Jeyne's Diplomacy) = 115. 1d100+15 = 113. 1d100+13 = 77)
It's more than satisfactory actually...it's brilliant. The two of you begin working together on a level better than ever. While Jeyne is leaping ahead, pouncing on ideas like a wolf on a blamed deer, you follow along behind, stitching her work together and smoothing out the wrinkles. As she finishes, she comes back to help you, finding several things you missed. The two of you work for far longer than you originally planned, eventually collapsing into bed together, too exhausted to even bother getting undressed. You awaken early the next morning, easily navigating the dark chamber as you hold up the letter and begin to read it once more.
You begin with the standard polite greetings of one monarch to another, but use the age of your house as a very light bludgeon in them, and you continue using that bit of prestige almost to subtly to be noticed. You acknowledge the lure of a printing press, and increased knowledge in general, and note that there are many who would oppose its spread. After all, the maester's prestige would be threatened if anyone could make books...but you dismiss that line of thought with irony so thick it could be translated into Valyrian and still come across as clear as Myrish glass.
You continue your musings on the value of knowledge, using metaphor to disguise what you are really talking about now: spies. You set clear boundaries here, while letting the threats remain vague. She has seen enough of your strength to be aware of the fury of the North. And the Durrandons are more than half-Andal. She likely grew up hearing scary stories about the Hungry Wolf. You make sure to send her a book describing his and some other conquests of the Kings of Winter. Princess Argella will get the hint, but it is not so blatant she could claim offense over it, not without looking weak before her bannermen.
At last, you leave aside the innuendos and metaphors and speak plainly, offering a few fair bargains: a trade of knowledge, a trade of information, and a possibility for a closer alliance.
On the third, you receive a generally positive but noncommittal response. You judge that while she may be in favor of it, some of her more powerful bannermen are not. Though you suspect that will change one way or another after the war against Harren. On the first, you receive a cautious agreement, with a note that it will take some time. The second you do not receive a formal acknowledgment of, but for some reason, the Storm Watchers in the North begin delivering messages discussing Harren in great detail, along with providing some information about the Reach. She has less about the Westerlands unfortunately.
(Catching the Change: 1d100+19 (Snow's Intrigue) +10 (Counterintelligence Bonus) + 15 (Compromised Network) = 53)
She also changes her ciphers, using a different set of goods and completely different symbols. However, luck favors you when one of her Watchers trips and falls into a ditch, allowing an urchin working for Snow to steal his supplies. The Watcher eventually recovers them from the "fence" the urchin sold them too, for a sufficiently normal price to make him suspect nothing more than bad luck
Sorry for being so slow, my muse got sidetracked by a story idea and I have been working on that a lot.
(The Letter: 1d100+20 (Jeyne's Diplomacy) = 115. 1d100+15 = 113. 1d100+13 = 77)
It's more than satisfactory actually...it's brilliant. The two of you begin working together on a level better than ever. While Jeyne is leaping ahead, pouncing on ideas like a wolf on a blamed deer, you follow along behind, stitching her work together and smoothing out the wrinkles. As she finishes, she comes back to help you, finding several things you missed. The two of you work for far longer than you originally planned, eventually collapsing into bed together, too exhausted to even bother getting undressed. You awaken early the next morning, easily navigating the dark chamber as you hold up the letter and begin to read it once more.
You begin with the standard polite greetings of one monarch to another, but use the age of your house as a very light bludgeon in them, and you continue using that bit of prestige almost to subtly to be noticed. You acknowledge the lure of a printing press, and increased knowledge in general, and note that there are many who would oppose its spread. After all, the maester's prestige would be threatened if anyone could make books...but you dismiss that line of thought with irony so thick it could be translated into Valyrian and still come across as clear as Myrish glass.
You continue your musings on the value of knowledge, using metaphor to disguise what you are really talking about now: spies. You set clear boundaries here, while letting the threats remain vague. She has seen enough of your strength to be aware of the fury of the North. And the Durrandons are more than half-Andal. She likely grew up hearing scary stories about the Hungry Wolf. You make sure to send her a book describing his and some other conquests of the Kings of Winter. Princess Argella will get the hint, but it is not so blatant she could claim offense over it, not without looking weak before her bannermen.
At last, you leave aside the innuendos and metaphors and speak plainly, offering a few fair bargains: a trade of knowledge, a trade of information, and a possibility for a closer alliance.
On the third, you receive a generally positive but noncommittal response. You judge that while she may be in favor of it, some of her more powerful bannermen are not. Though you suspect that will change one way or another after the war against Harren. On the first, you receive a cautious agreement, with a note that it will take some time. The second you do not receive a formal acknowledgment of, but for some reason, the Storm Watchers in the North begin delivering messages discussing Harren in great detail, along with providing some information about the Reach. She has less about the Westerlands unfortunately.
(Catching the Change: 1d100+19 (Snow's Intrigue) +10 (Counterintelligence Bonus) + 15 (Compromised Network) = 53)
She also changes her ciphers, using a different set of goods and completely different symbols. However, luck favors you when one of her Watchers trips and falls into a ditch, allowing an urchin working for Snow to steal his supplies. The Watcher eventually recovers them from the "fence" the urchin sold them too, for a sufficiently normal price to make him suspect nothing more than bad luck
Sorry for being so slow, my muse got sidetracked by a story idea and I have been working on that a lot.
@notbirdofprey
Treasury: 5660 gold
Income: 1105 gold (taxes) + 1550 gold (trade) + 400 gold (farming) + 100 gold (fur) + 25 gold (wool) + 420 gold (mines) + 100 gold (paper) + 50 gold (logging)
Expenditures: -20 gold (signal towers), -10 gold (stables), -10 gold (scouts), - 75 gold (various tariff/tax reductions for houses), -15 gold (Snowcloaks), -500 gold(Kingly things), - 10 gold (civil service), - 25 gold (Wardens)
Net Income: 3605 gold
Food Supply: Medium+
I feel that our income,expecially our taxes is to low,will the income from our trading and other various things is to highy.Also that 500 gold for kingly things is way to exageratet,when the taxes from our vassals is only a little over 1100 gold.So we basicaly spend half of our tax income(our main source of income) on frivoulous things,when our whole culture is against spending money if you dont need to bc you need to be better prepared for winter.
Also the income from farming and other things is way to highy considering it is only from our lands and the income from farming,furs and others should either be a tax income or a trade income,not separate.
Also the income from trading from only our lands is way to highy.
Seriously 1500 gold in trade only from our lands when the taxes from the whole north is 1100 is exagerated.I mean the manderlays have silver mines and the only port in the north,the boltons are the third richest house in the north and we gain a paltry sum of gold as taxes but we make double in trade and various other things?
Also the expenses for our various military and civil is way to low.We spend 500 gold on kigly things and we spend 100 gold on military and other thing(we dont have an expense for our winterfell guard which is odd).So either the expense for military is way to low or something else bc it doesnt make any sense at all.
Treasury: 5660 gold
Income: 1105 gold (taxes) + 1550 gold (trade) + 400 gold (farming) + 100 gold (fur) + 25 gold (wool) + 420 gold (mines) + 100 gold (paper) + 50 gold (logging)
Expenditures: -20 gold (signal towers), -10 gold (stables), -10 gold (scouts), - 75 gold (various tariff/tax reductions for houses), -15 gold (Snowcloaks), -500 gold(Kingly things), - 10 gold (civil service), - 25 gold (Wardens)
Net Income: 3605 gold
Food Supply: Medium+
I feel that our income,expecially our taxes is to low,will the income from our trading and other various things is to highy.Also that 500 gold for kingly things is way to exageratet,when the taxes from our vassals is only a little over 1100 gold.So we basicaly spend half of our tax income(our main source of income) on frivoulous things,when our whole culture is against spending money if you dont need to bc you need to be better prepared for winter.
Also the income from farming and other things is way to highy considering it is only from our lands and the income from farming,furs and others should either be a tax income or a trade income,not separate.
Also the income from trading from only our lands is way to highy.
Seriously 1500 gold in trade only from our lands when the taxes from the whole north is 1100 is exagerated.I mean the manderlays have silver mines and the only port in the north,the boltons are the third richest house in the north and we gain a paltry sum of gold as taxes but we make double in trade and various other things?
Also the expenses for our various military and civil is way to low.We spend 500 gold on kigly things and we spend 100 gold on military and other thing(we dont have an expense for our winterfell guard which is odd).So either the expense for military is way to low or something else bc it doesnt make any sense at all.
- Location
- ?????????
Excellent. We got everything out of it, including the new Ciphers she sent. Truly that was a lot of good luck
- Pronouns
- She/Her
A 95, a 98, and 64 respectively on our letter rolls, friggin' amazing.
And with the cypher switch...we rolled a 9 and still succeeded. brb dying.
- Location
- United States
Just out of curiosity what skill would we need for this. I'm asking because it doesn't seem to be something that martial skill would be all that useful.