The Game of Crusading Thrones, Self-Insert Edition (GoT CK2)

Ptolemy said:

I don't actually think we have much to gain from keeping the fact we know about her spies and their code hidden. Unless they're atrociously incompetent, they'll change their cyphers and codes pretty frequently, so the fact we have one will only provide a temporary advantage at best.

On the other hand, revealing it has the potential to scare off future attention, as she might overestimate our abilities, since she wouldn't know we only cracked their cypher by luck. Moreover, a diplomatic and conciliatory response is also an invitation for her to genuinely trust without being blind or naive about it, since were our motives malevolent we could easily have acted with hostility, or attempted to maintain a deception.

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While true any half way decent spy group would change their codes semi-regularly. There would still be some repetition among the codes. We Humans are very good at remembering certain phrases and codes, but it takes time to change a cipher. It is also incredibly difficult to get new spies into advantageous positions when the network has been compromised. It would also set us back in knowing which spies report to which kingdom. In this case it is a the spy you know kind of situation.

[X] Send her a printing press...
-[X] For books. The library of Storm's End is probably about as old as the one in Winterfell, and Durradons of old warred with the Children of the Forest and perhaps other creatures and other gods as well. It would be a simple argument as well. (DC 10)

I don't really feel the need to dress it up, but I guess I don't really mind it either.

[X] Plan Plausable Deniability
-[X] Send her a printing press.
--[X] Claim it was a gift and an attempt to further the flow of knowledge
--[X] Request the copies of books in Storms End and the Stormlands to further this flow and better future relations.
--[X] The spies are not to be mentioned. At all. This is a gift.
---[X][Speech/Note] Storm's blessings upon you Lady Argella Durrandon,
It is often said that the North remembers, and House Stark remembers a time whereupon my great ancestor Brandon the Builder, Durran Godsgrief and the Children of the Forest bled together to raise one of the grand wonders of Westeros, your castle of Storm's End. In that spirit of cooperation, House Stark and the Kingdom of the North, would like to gift unto House Durrandon and the Kingdom of the Storm this brilliant instrument of enlightenment, so named the printing press, that our two realms may grow wise, prosper, and unite as allies once again! It is our hope that in return, our good faith's only reward be that of tomes and the lore of our new friends, such that we know you better, strengthen our bonds and become harmonious during these strange times. Winter has Come.
Signed, Torrhen Stark, King in the North, Warden of Winterfell

Reposting my vote with the updated speech.

Also @Ptolemy I'd actually think it's better Argella underestimates rather than we reveal our hand. Even if they change their cypher, we don't want to show our capabilities. On the other hand, a simple gift with diplomatic overtures & speech sets the tone of "Honorably Naive Starks" instead of being competent at playing intrigue as well, making Argella cautious/wary. She's supposed to be one of the best, breaking a cypher that easily might spook her, even if we say "hey we're cool n fine you did that."

OR it might instead send the message that "hey we're naive to reveal ourselves in a gesture of good faith" when someone with proper intrigue chops knows deniability is the name of the game.

The Starks do not have a reputation for being naive. Honorable to an extent, some might say foolish or primitive, but they have a reputation for being very fierce and savage. Remember, Theon Stark is the reason there are no Andals left in Andalos.

Fallout5368 said:

While true any half way decent spy group would change their codes semi-regularly. There would still be some repetition among the codes. We Humans are very good at remembering certain phrases and codes, but it takes time to change a cipher. It is also incredibly difficult to get new spies into advantageous positions when the network has been compromised. It would also set us back in knowing which spies report to which kingdom. In this case it is a the spy you know kind of situation.

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Actually, codes and cyphers won't necessarily be similar at all. And some repitition or similarities wouldn't assist us much at all, since cryptography is an area where our own spies are clearly pretty deficient. While we obviously hope they'll improve, we can't count on them doing so anytime in the foreseeable future, and old codes wouldn't really be of any use to them at all.

And yes, she may well send new spies, and we'll have to watch out for them. However, in the meantime she'll also be prompted to essentially reform her entire spy network since it has been compromised by us, and she'll also likely be dissuaded from attempting anything like this in future.

Added to that, I think it's pretty clear that she'd be able to read between the lines and guess that we had cracked her code, since offering to send her a printing press is just too much of a coincidence for it to be otherwise.

In this situation, I really think that honesty is the best policy to try and build meaningful trust, by revealing what we know and demonstrating through our words and actions that we don't hold a grudge and are friendly.

Resonant said:

X] Send her a printing press.
-[X] Claim it was a gift and an attempt to further the flow of knowledge
-[X] Request the copies of books in Storms End and the Stormlands to further this flow and better future relations.
-[X] The spies are not to be mentioned. At all. This is a gift.
--[X][Speech/Note] Storm's blessings upon you Lady Argella Durrandon,
It is often said that the North remembers, and House Stark remembers a time whereupon my great ancestor Brandon the Builder, Durran Godsgrief and the Children of the Forest bled together to raise one of the great wonders of Westeros, the castle of Storm's End. In that spirit of cooperation, House Stark and the Kingdom of the North, would gift unto House Durrandon and the Kingdom of the Storm this brilliant instrument of enlightenment, so named the printing press, that our two realms may grow wise, prosper, and unite as allies once more! It is our hope that in return, our good faith's only reward be that of tomes and the lore of our new friends, such that we know them better, strengthen our bonds and become harmonious during these strange times. Winter has Come.
Signed, Torrhen Stark, King in the North, Warden of Winterfell

Reposting my vote with the updated speech.

Also @Ptolemy I'd actually think it's better Argella underestimates rather than we reveal our hand. Even if they change their cypher, we don't want to show our capabilities. On the other hand, a simple gift with diplomatic overtures & speech sets the tone of "Honorably Naive Starks" instead of being competent at playing intrigue as well, making Argella cautious/wary. She's supposed to be one of the best, breaking a cypher that easily might spook her instead.

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The thing is that if Argella is cautious then that also serves as a deterrent against future hostile acts of espionage, particularly if we make clear that we won't tolerate or forgive them in future. Moreover, as I've said, it's also an opportunity to try and build genuine trust, and to demonstrate that we are both capable and magnanimous.

I don't think it matters much whether she realizes we cracked her code or not. Nor do I think we need to tell her, she'll probably figure it out.

But sending the press ought to at least make her consider making requests in the future instead of thefts.

Well, IMO guilt-shaming Argella for trying to steal by paying in books, warning her against trying again is NOT a good bedrock for future diplomacy. It sounds Too Righteous when we're clearly angling for a deal. It makes the whole relationship transactional instead.

Resonant said:

Well, IMO guilt-shaming Argella for trying to steal by paying in books, warning her against trying again is NOT a good bedrock for future diplomacy. It sounds Too Righteous when we're clearly angling for a deal. It makes the whole relationship transactional instead.

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I'm afraid that I don't really agree. We're at most gently criticising her for jumping to espionage rather than attempting diplomacy, and for rejecting the option of cooperating with us, particularly since there are many ways in which we could help each other, and in which our interests align.

And as for it being too "transactional", if you think that's something that will offend her, I don't think you've payed any attention to her behaviour just now. She's demonstrated very clearly that she isn't at all sentimental or concerned with diplomatic niceties, as if she were then she wouldn't have committed hostile espionage against us.

And at its core diplomacy between great powers is largely transactional anyway, as we both have things that we want and which motivate us. Being honest about the fact, and inviting cooperation, is actually far more honest and trustworthy than the alternative, which is essentially lying and pretending that we don't have any ulterior motives, when in fact we do, and she knows that.

Basically, we're telling her that the stick won't work, so she ought to try the carrot instead, and that if she does then she can get even more than what she wanted in the first place. It's an invitation to her to attempt actual and meaningful diplomacy, rather than resorting to hostile espionage.

Ptolemy said:

I'm afraid that I don't really agree. We're at most gently criticising her for jumping to espionage rather than attempting diplomacy, and for rejecting the option of cooperating with us, particularly since there are many ways in which we could help each other, and in which our interests align.

And as for it being too "transactional", if you think that's something that will offend her, I don't think you've payed any attention to her behaviour just know. She's demonstrated very clearly that she isn't at all sentimental or concerned with diplomatic niceties, as if she were then she wouldn't have committed hostile espionage against us.

And at its core diplomacy between great powers is largely transactional anyway, as we both have things that we want and which motivate us. Being honest about the fact, and inviting cooperation, is actually far more honest and trustworthy than the alternative, which is essentially lying and pretending that we don't have any ulterior motives, when in fact we do, and she knows that.

Basically, we're telling her that the stick won't work, so she ought to try the carrot instead, and that if she does then she can get even more than what she wanted in the first place. It's an invitation to her to attempt actual and meaningful diplomacy, rather than resorting to hostile espionage.

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This all may be true. But that does not necessitate being explicit about it. Letting her figure it out on her own is a more gracious way of communicating the idea. And grace matters a lot in a feudal society.

[X] Prevent the theft
-[X] Just be blatant about it. If she wanted a press, she could have damn well asked! This will be nearly impossible to mess up since you will know the plan, but it has a small risk of upsetting her if some of her best men are killed or wounded.

Ptolemy said:

Added to that, I think it's pretty clear that she'd be able to read between the lines and guess that we had cracked her code, since offering to send her a printing press is just too much of a coincidence for it to be otherwise.

The thing is that if Argella is cautious then that also serves as a deterrent against future hostile acts of espionage, particularly if we make clear that we won't tolerate or forgive them in future. Moreover, as I've said, it's also an opportunity to try and build genuine trust, and to demonstrate that we are both capable and magnanimous.

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Ptolemy said:

I'm afraid that I don't really agree. We're at most gently criticising her for jumping to espionage rather than attempting diplomacy, and for rejecting the option of cooperating with us, particularly since there are many ways in which we could help each other, and in which our interests align.

And as for it being too "transactional", if you think that's something that will offend her, I don't think you've payed any attention to her behaviour just know. She's demonstrated very clearly that she isn't at all sentimental or concerned with diplomatic niceties, as if she were then she wouldn't have committed hostile espionage against us.

And at its core diplomacy between great powers is largely transactional anyway, as we both have things that we want and which motivate us. Being honest about the fact, and inviting cooperation, is actually far more honest and trustworthy than the alternative, which is essentially lying and pretending that we don't have any ulterior motives, when in fact we do, and she knows that.

Basically, we're telling her that the stick won't work, so she ought to try the carrot instead, and that if she does then she can get even more than what she wanted in the first place. It's an invitation to her to attempt actual and meaningful diplomacy, rather than resorting to hostile espionage.

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Tbh, I don't blame Argella for not considering diplomacy first based on how tightly a state secret the printing press is. Yes, it's better to ask instead of steal, I just meant it's her usual modus operandi so you can't say she rejected an opportunity, there wasn't one to begin with for the printing press.

Also, I do see your point of diplomacy being transactional anyways, so just acknowledge what's happened up front. However, I'd point out revealing ourselves is not the only path to preventing another occurrence. Once we get develop close ties with the Stormlands, Argella will be disincentivized to try things like stealing anyways, because the cost & risk outweights the benefits once that's happened.
It's not the only option.

Not saying one method is better than the other, I just have a personal preference to keep the cards closer to my chest. It doesn't help that coming clean means she'll replace her entire spy network whereas there is a chance she won't if we keep quiet, and we don't have to keep an eye out for new replacements.

However, I will dispute it when you say Argella "will know we have ulterior motives" or "reading between the lines when we send her the press." That's not what QM said:

notbirdofprey said:

You can try that, there would be a DC 50 Intrigue roll to try and persuade her of that though.

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It will be a roll, but if we succeed it means Argella will be persuaded, just like we conned the Targaryens with our fake prophecy. It just requires one to take the chance.

[X] Plan: Friendly Reveal

Btw, it feels like the vote's a bit scattered due to the earlier speech-making. So, to clarify for those voting for the previous "Gifting for Books, Keep Quiet about Spies" plan, I consolidated my version under the name:
[] Plan Plausible Deniability

[X] Plan: Friendly Reveal

[X] Prevent the theft
-[X] Just be blatant about it. If she wanted a press, she could have damn well asked! This will be nearly impossible to mess up since you will know the plan, but it has a small risk of upsetting her if some of her best men are killed or wounded.

[X] Prevent the theft
-[X] Just be blatant about it. If she wanted a press, she could have damn well asked! This will be nearly impossible to mess up since you will know the plan, but it has a small risk of upsetting her if some of her best men are killed or wounded.

[X] Send her a printing press.
-[X] Claim it was a gift and an attempt to further the flow of knowledge
-[X] Request the copies of books in Storms End and the Stormlands to further this flow and better future relations.
-[X] The spies are not to be mentioned. At all. This is a gift.

[X] Plan: Friendly Reveal

One concern, @Ptolemy -- does Argella share our concern/antipathy for Loren? I know she does for Harren, but I don't remember seeing the same for the Westerlands.

[X] Send her a printing press.
-[X] Claim it was a gift and an attempt to further the flow of knowledge
-[X] Request the copies of books in Storms End and the Stormlands to further this flow and better future relations.
-[X] The spies are not to be mentioned. At all. This is a gift.

[X] Prevent the theft
-[X] Just be blatant about it. If she wanted a press, she could have damn well asked! This will be nearly impossible to mess up since you will know the plan, but it has a small risk of upsetting her if some of her best men are killed or wounded.

We shouldn't act like a basket to be tossed about just because we like somone. Kill tha agents and send them home as a warning, we aren't toothless idiots just because we enjoy being friendly.

[X] Prevent the theft
-[X] Just be blatant about it. If she wanted a press, she could have damn well asked! This will be nearly impossible to mess up since you will know the plan, but it has a small risk of upsetting her if some of her best men are killed or wounded.
We would look like fools,who are ready to do anything and forgive any slight from anyone if we send her a printing press.Dont forget the lannister behavior before twyn and the rains of castamere as a consequence.
This is not the modern world,where we share the knowledge,this is a worse version of the medieval world,where every person and family try to gain an advantage over the others,where today ally is tomorrow enemy.And we arent even part of the same kingdom,we are separate so any advantage we give to someone else will be used against us.
To send this type of invention outside of our family when we didnt have a monopoly on this type of trade is to shot ourselves in the foot,to loose a source of income.If they sent spies to steal it means that they understand what they could do with something like this and we may loose an important source of income and influence.
And if we are trully allies,she shouldnt try something like this.You may spy for general information but tehnology theft is an enemy action not an ally.
For storm books we can offer to make copy of any book she want for free if either we can keep a copy for ourselves or we receive other book of our choice to copy.

[X] Plan: Friendly Reveal

Cgce said:

[X] Prevent the theft
-[X] Just be blatant about it. If she wanted a press, she could have damn well asked! This will be nearly impossible to mess up since you will know the plan, but it has a small risk of upsetting her if some of her best men are killed or wounded.
We would look like fools,who are ready to do anything and forgive any slight from anyone if we send her a printing press.Dont forget the lannister behavior before twyn and the rains of castamere as a consequence.
This is not the modern world,where we share the knowledge,this is a worse version of the medieval world,where every person and family try to gain an advantage over the others,where today ally is tomorrow enemy.And we arent even part of the same kingdom,we are separate so any advantage we give to someone else will be used against us.
To send this type of invention outside of our family when we didnt have a monopoly on this type of trade is to shot ourselves in the foot,to loose a source of income.If they sent spies to steal it means that they understand what they could do with something like this and we may loose an important source of income and influence.
And if we are trully allies,she shouldnt try something like this.You may spy for general information but tehnology theft is an enemy action not an ally.
For storm books we can offer to make copy of any book she want for free if either we can keep a copy for ourselves or we receive other book of our choice to copy.

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My main problem with your argument is that you are thinking that we are allies. But we just allies of convenience, while similar are two exceedingly different things. Also allies steal from each other all the time. Just because you're allied with someone doesn't mean you will give them your tech just because they asked. We are giving the Argella the Press because it allows us to gain double agents in her spy network. Plus being too blatant can result in us being seen as insulting Argella which can severely hurt our political relations with them.
@notbirdofprey how high is the dc for @Ptolemy plan?

[X] Prevent the theft
-[X] Just be blatant about it. If she wanted a press, she could have damn well asked! This will be nearly impossible to mess up since you will know the plan, but it has a small risk of upsetting her if some of her best men are killed or wounded.

One Autumn Leaf said:

--[X] [Speech/Note] To the Honorable Princess Argella Durrandon, Daughter to the Storm King, Regent of the Stormlands I, King Torrhen Stark King in the North, would freely give unto the Kingdom of the Stormlands the invention of the printing press in the hopes of furthering ties between our two kingdoms and to further spread knowledge throughout both our realms. All we ask in return is knowledge and tomes from throughout your kingdom so as to both preserve and spread the knowledge and histories of the realm as well as to prepare for any threats that may be coming in these strange times which have befallen our kingdoms. I hope for this gift to be the start of a long and prospering relationship between our two kingdoms. Sincerely King Torrhen Stark, King in the North

Is this ideal?

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You might want to remove the "X" here, since it's overruling your previous vote.

Marlowe310811 said:

[X] Plan: Friendly Reveal

One concern, @Ptolemy -- does Argella share our concern/antipathy for Loren? I know she does for Harren, but I don't remember seeing the same for the Westerlands.

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I think she does. Partly it's down to the fact that the Stormlands is also benefitting from the magic of the First Men/Age of Heroes, and partly it's because Loren is volatile, irrational, and aggressive, and if he wants to launch a crusade then that threatens the balance of power. Even if the Stormlands wasn't the target, its position would still be undermined by the Westerlands growing in power.