- Location
- US
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I need to sleep. I'll see you in the morning if I'm not lynched by then.
Nictis
Best Sidekick
- Location
- Ninja Dave's Cookies
- Pronouns
- Any
Honestly, No Lynch or no No Lynch is really more a matter ot opinion than alignment. Probably better to look at reasons for each.
Wiadi stated that he found Pawn's defense good enough not to lynch him. Rosen found Pawn's defense to not be enough. Narcotic claimed gut against Pawn but also that his gut said there was something wrong. Meso made no commentary as to suspicions and later claimed to have voted to ensure a hammer drop.
Wiadi stated that he found Pawn's defense good enough not to lynch him. Rosen found Pawn's defense to not be enough. Narcotic claimed gut against Pawn but also that his gut said there was something wrong. Meso made no commentary as to suspicions and later claimed to have voted to ensure a hammer drop.
CTRosen
Rock Man
- Location
- Northwest PA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Hmm.
I've done a bit of thread review and the theory I just stated I had doesn't hold as well as I would like. Vote still stands, though.
@Nictis Do you think meso is pushing Wiadi more here because he actually voted to no-lynch versus myself, who only entertained the idea at EoD? I feel like he would be pressing both of us on this principle if I'm gonna be honest.
I've done a bit of thread review and the theory I just stated I had doesn't hold as well as I would like. Vote still stands, though.
@Nictis Do you think meso is pushing Wiadi more here because he actually voted to no-lynch versus myself, who only entertained the idea at EoD? I feel like he would be pressing both of us on this principle if I'm gonna be honest.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Deathvon and Underling are my prefered options atm.
@vets, to what extent, is any, is checking behavior against past games as a core motive for a lynch frowned upon?
@vets, to what extent, is any, is checking behavior against past games as a core motive for a lynch frowned upon?
Nictis
Best Sidekick
- Location
- Ninja Dave's Cookies
- Pronouns
- Any
It's not really frowned upon to my knowledge, it's just also generally not done because it's often more of a pain than it's worth.
Anyways, I'm going to sleep now. Maybe.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
So, following up on that, I dug through what I think are the games 1K's played in. If there are mistakes, it's because I'm bad at checking my work, not because this is a super secret scum plot to convince everyone to kill someone. I'm not really willing to interrogate someone's personal life or claims of distraction, because that's just kinda scummy (in the IRL sense not the game one), but I do think when someone's made claims about their past play, that may be fair game, and @Nictis has suggested it isn't out of bounds. So:
So, this seems like a pretty solid point to me. But it's pretty easy to check a player's past games to see whether a claim is true. I think if 1K actually has a record of games where there's no QTs and very few with QTs, or no recent games with QTs, then this makes sense. If the reverse is true, then the claim starts to look a lot more like cover (albeit, I do think it can feel more common to have a tool to rely on like a QT, so it's hardly definitive either way. People often narrate how things feel rather than how they are.)
So, how well does this hold up? I've tried to spot all of 1K's games, and believe I've categorized them properly, but to err is human, so apologies to all (mostly 1K) if I messed this up and any double-checks would be greatly appreciated.
So, at a glance, it looks like 1K's played far more games without QTs than with. Arch-fiend was 1K's last game before this, and 1K did have a QT there (but also died N1), but Stormtrooper wasn't far before that where there was no QT. Before that was Dragonball and Game of Crowns with QT then before that Clown Academy without. So, this honestly doesn't strike me as a record of not having QTs in any recent games.
I might give this a pass. 3/4 of the most recent games had QTs; however:
1K cites having 2 games as scum and being relatively inexperienced as scum, adopting a defensive stance on people not really knowing how her scum play looks (please forgive me if I've misunderstood this, the thread is long and convoluted and its 3am). However, unless I've missed any, 1K has a total of 3 games with QTs, of which 2 were the same scum games 1K is minimizing above.
This rings alarm bells to me atm. 1K's QT games have mostly been as scum, yet, 1K is both defending herself on not having played much scum and on having played a lot with QTs recently, which is odd as these were mostly the same events.
That said, 1K's mentioned it's been hard to get engaged here, and I do think that explains a lot of 1K's behavior, so I'm not 100% sold on this. Either way:
[x] Kill 1KBestK
@1KBestK courtesy ping.
So, this seems like a pretty solid point to me. But it's pretty easy to check a player's past games to see whether a claim is true. I think if 1K actually has a record of games where there's no QTs and very few with QTs, or no recent games with QTs, then this makes sense. If the reverse is true, then the claim starts to look a lot more like cover (albeit, I do think it can feel more common to have a tool to rely on like a QT, so it's hardly definitive either way. People often narrate how things feel rather than how they are.)
So, how well does this hold up? I've tried to spot all of 1K's games, and believe I've categorized them properly, but to err is human, so apologies to all (mostly 1K) if I messed this up and any double-checks would be greatly appreciated.
No QT
Stormtrooper: Storm Trooper Mafia
Congregation of Despair: Congregation of Despair (Mafia - Second Attempt)
Arch-demon 3: Arch-Demon's Eternal Game 3: Weren't We Just Here? (Mafia)
Arch-demon 2: Arch-Demon's Eternal Game 2 Eternal Boogaloo
Mesozoic: Mesozoic Mafia
Clown: Clown Academy (Mafia)
QT:
Dragonball: Dragon Ball M(afia)
Game of Crowns: A Game of Crowns (Mafia)
Arch-fiend Arch-Fiend's Eternal Game (or, Arch-Demon's Eternal Game 4.0 aka more Mafia)
Stormtrooper: Storm Trooper Mafia
Congregation of Despair: Congregation of Despair (Mafia - Second Attempt)
Arch-demon 3: Arch-Demon's Eternal Game 3: Weren't We Just Here? (Mafia)
Arch-demon 2: Arch-Demon's Eternal Game 2 Eternal Boogaloo
Mesozoic: Mesozoic Mafia
Clown: Clown Academy (Mafia)
QT:
Dragonball: Dragon Ball M(afia)
Game of Crowns: A Game of Crowns (Mafia)
Arch-fiend Arch-Fiend's Eternal Game (or, Arch-Demon's Eternal Game 4.0 aka more Mafia)
So, at a glance, it looks like 1K's played far more games without QTs than with. Arch-fiend was 1K's last game before this, and 1K did have a QT there (but also died N1), but Stormtrooper wasn't far before that where there was no QT. Before that was Dragonball and Game of Crowns with QT then before that Clown Academy without. So, this honestly doesn't strike me as a record of not having QTs in any recent games.
I might give this a pass. 3/4 of the most recent games had QTs; however:
1K cites having 2 games as scum and being relatively inexperienced as scum, adopting a defensive stance on people not really knowing how her scum play looks (please forgive me if I've misunderstood this, the thread is long and convoluted and its 3am). However, unless I've missed any, 1K has a total of 3 games with QTs, of which 2 were the same scum games 1K is minimizing above.
This rings alarm bells to me atm. 1K's QT games have mostly been as scum, yet, 1K is both defending herself on not having played much scum and on having played a lot with QTs recently, which is odd as these were mostly the same events.
That said, 1K's mentioned it's been hard to get engaged here, and I do think that explains a lot of 1K's behavior, so I'm not 100% sold on this. Either way:
[x] Kill 1KBestK
@1KBestK courtesy ping.
CTRosen
Rock Man
- Location
- Northwest PA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yeah I just have a big personal distaste for explicit meta arguments tbh
- Location
- US
- Pronouns
- He/Him
ondine
Pretty Princess of the Shadow Cabal
- Location
- A helluva town
- Pronouns
- She/her/hers
Did y'all read her post?
First off, we all use info from other games. People are constantly talking about what happened in prior games. Shadell happened to not be there for most of them so she took the time to look up some basic pieces of information on them. And then she used that combined with posts from this game to make an argument.
Saying you don't even want to read the post, which frankly isn't long and that you meso have nothing to say since it's all EOD2 stuff.. except apparently for the stuff you don't want to engage in. And the fact that if you're town your job is to find scum, not protect yourself so it really shouldn't matter what other people say, you could move the conversation in the direction of someone you suspect.
Y'all are all on m suspect list.
Also, @QTesseract let's talk souls soon ja? I got some ideas and questions possibly based on what you've got to tell.
CTRosen
Rock Man
- Location
- Northwest PA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
There's a difference between using intuition on past experiences with a player and literally bringing information from past games into a current one as evidence for someone being a certain alignment.
Shadell's post far transcends the "this doesn't feel like x's Town game" so I find it generally inadmissible.
Shadell's post far transcends the "this doesn't feel like x's Town game" so I find it generally inadmissible.
- Location
- Academy City
- Pronouns
- They
- Location
- Hell
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Yeah, on meso, the hammer thing is sus but also theoretically believable. I understand voting for them with that angle. There's also their play being more aggressive. I don't know if I'll vote for them but it's an ok option.
Also, if we're making the meta argument, why in the world would I be inactive as scum when that would be so sus? I'm apparently good at keeping myself consistent. Why would I change things up and make myself more vulnerable? I don't really know if the meta arguments are worthwhile at all, but if we're taking into account past play, there seems to be no reason for scum!1k to actually want to go inactive.
This is what I was responding to.
Also, if we're making the meta argument, why in the world would I be inactive as scum when that would be so sus? I'm apparently good at keeping myself consistent. Why would I change things up and make myself more vulnerable? I don't really know if the meta arguments are worthwhile at all, but if we're taking into account past play, there seems to be no reason for scum!1k to actually want to go inactive.
- Location
- The UK
Shadell, I don't see your logic. Are you saying that if most of their games didn't have QTs they'd be more likely to point out that there was no QT? Doesn't it make more sense to say there's no QT if every game so far has had one?
- Location
- Academy City
- Pronouns
- They
Man I gotta say, this constant usage of QT as an acronym makes this convo way harder to follow 
- Location
- The UK
Man I gotta say, this constant usage of QT as an acronym makes this convo way harder to follow
Yeah, made me confused the first time they were brought up this game.
QuickTopic doesn't take that much longer to type, does it? Let's say that from now on.
Alright, so here's my case why I think Meso is scum. I'm afraid it's gonna be a bit larger with lots of quotes.
Pre-Edit, Post-writing: I'm sorry, at some points I think I went a bit too aggressive/too snarky. Feels like I got needlessly antagonistic at some points. No offense meant to you Meso.
Additionally it mostly concentrates on D1 and D2.
So, guess what. We start with D1.
Summary:
Nictis and Meso were the main force behind the Nanook lynch. The lynch and Nictis' reasoning were very weak, with Nanook's hostility being a main factor. Yet when I pressed Meso for his reasons for supporting the lynch, he played down his own hostility (he at least mentioned) and pointed at "the reasoning". He went on to make some other strange calls like comparing Byz' and Nanook's skill levels in favor of Byz, downplaying his obviously affected reasoning again.
Normally I'd expect Meso to see how weak the scum read was and act accordingly. Here he supported it. Additionally he (less) and Nictis (far more) needlessly reheated and in my opinion worsened and prolongated the hostilities. While I definitely don't like Nictis play, it was his usual bulldogging taken to the extreme. (Eh, let's be honest. It was worse.) But Meso's act makes me rather more suspicious right now.
About the bolded part: Now it was a policy lynch, alright.
Feels havily like denigrating Nictis.
I won't handle EoD, most has been already told.
Summary:
Reads mostly like denigrating Nictis. Sorry, I know the last summary was a bit more fleshed out.
Sorry, I stop my reasoning here. I worked on this stuff for quite a while now and I'm seriously tired. For D3 I'd say that Meso was trying to lynch Byzantine for being the SK. Please take this with a grain of salt right now. It's at least how I remember ist.
So in conclusion Meso has a nasty habbit this game to drive bad lynches. He was a major force behind the Nanook lynch D1, tried to get Nictis killed D2 and is trying to get Byz killed for the wrong reasons D3. If he flips scum, which I'm 95% sure by now, it looks rather bad for Shadell. IIRC her timing was terribly off. Quite when the suspicion on Meso started, she suggested to concentrate on low activity players. It's not a bad call but an easy call to divert attention off a teammate. And sadly nothing was gained from it.
[x] Lynch mesonoxian
Courtesy Ping @mesonoxian
Pre-Edit, Post-writing: I'm sorry, at some points I think I went a bit too aggressive/too snarky. Feels like I got needlessly antagonistic at some points. No offense meant to you Meso.
Additionally it mostly concentrates on D1 and D2.
So, guess what. We start with D1.
Most of Meso's stuff is rather unimportant for the first few hours(?). Then we get this
Nope, I'm not bloating this stuff even more than it's already gonna be. If you want more proof for the hostility that evolved from that, read the next few pages after my last quote.
The only productive thing in this mess is Nictis' reasoning for the Nanook lynch.
P1. So we are running under the assumption here that Byz and Nanook are scum. And Nanook is heavily trying to protect Byz AND getting himself lynched in his place. So that Byz survives a night...
Under those assumptions not even a Neon sign "PR" would be more obvious. And you should always try to kill a scum PR before a scum goon. So yes, indeed, it makes a difference.
P2. Not really since we are running on Nictis' proclaimed connection that was weak as f*.
P4. Especially the last part. Sorry but that just earns a deadpan. Not to be offensive to you, @Byzantine but:
- Byz played two games in total, effectively only one.
- Where he mostly argued for the wrong lynches and got one scum lynched for the wrong reasons.
- Got heavily sheeped.
Against:
- An unknown player that was in champions (although he himself plays that down). I doubt they let every last idiot play in that.
- Was recruited by Pawn. I think he wouldn't recruit a total beginner off-side.
Yeah, so you're effectively making a really bad call here. It is either tinged by your own hostility, which you heavily downplayed, or by intent.
So, what we have here is Nanook doing a kind of reaction test. Throw in some bogus statement and watch what people will make out of it. It's true that his attitude wasn't really helping much but that's not really a good reason to lynch someone. So we start off with a lynch for a snippy attitude and a reaction test. Just checked it up and it's not the first reaction test Meso was confronted with. -Rosen did a way worse one in DB Mafia, which Meso played in (first game/second game?). So he might have recognized the drive here.
Nope, I'm not bloating this stuff even more than it's already gonna be. If you want more proof for the hostility that evolved from that, read the next few pages after my last quote.
Here to mark the point when Nictis is taking over the lynch. Before we had Meso arguing with Nanook, a bit of ondine being upset and Wiadi chiming in with a lynch somewhere.
Policy lynch inc.
Wanna say that goes both way here or rather will be between two/three people in the future.
Early apology here, will not matter...
See.
Still a it abrasive but another attempt at disengaging.
Early townread on Shadell. Just included since there's a high chance of a Meso/Shadell team by now.
Nanook's just warning here that such deep dives should be treated with care since they can be confirmation biased. Which is a valid point. He's not really disencouraging it but says you shouldn't make it your one and only centerpiece for a lynch. Why it is important?
That's why. Cause that post started to be the lynchpin for the bad Nanook lynch and the Byz/Nanook/Rosen connection we somehow still deal with in parts.
Now we are coming to the part where Meso's gonna ride shotgun, letting Nictis do the lynching.
Reads to me kinda hostile.
Needless talk is needless. Really guys, 30 posts mostly about stupid semantics? (Included to show that in large part Meso and Nanook argue about pointless shit.)
Mind Nictis hasn't presented his case yet. He stated his connection and vanished without the reasoning for this connection.
Even says so himself.
And another wonderful round of "What the fuck guys" begins.
80-something posts mostly wasted with semantics, needless hostility between Nictis and Nanook. Which could have been resolved so damn easily. And mostly boiled down to a difference in playstyle between those two.
The only productive thing in this mess is Nictis' reasoning for the Nanook lynch.
Please show me if I'm wrong but you haven't really made any reads either. Except your scumread on Nanook. Might be my own memory though. I'm already sitting on this s*... stuff for a while now.
That post is bad on so many levels.
P1. So we are running under the assumption here that Byz and Nanook are scum. And Nanook is heavily trying to protect Byz AND getting himself lynched in his place. So that Byz survives a night...
Under those assumptions not even a Neon sign "PR" would be more obvious. And you should always try to kill a scum PR before a scum goon. So yes, indeed, it makes a difference.
P2. Not really since we are running on Nictis' proclaimed connection that was weak as f*.
P4. Especially the last part. Sorry but that just earns a deadpan. Not to be offensive to you, @Byzantine but:
- Byz played two games in total, effectively only one.
- Where he mostly argued for the wrong lynches and got one scum lynched for the wrong reasons.
- Got heavily sheeped.
Against:
- An unknown player that was in champions (although he himself plays that down). I doubt they let every last idiot play in that.
- Was recruited by Pawn. I think he wouldn't recruit a total beginner off-side.
Yeah, so you're effectively making a really bad call here. It is either tinged by your own hostility, which you heavily downplayed, or by intent.
Just throwing in for good measure.
Will mention it in the summary, so it's better to write it down.
That's just a cheap jab, you're better than this.
Summary:
Nictis and Meso were the main force behind the Nanook lynch. The lynch and Nictis' reasoning were very weak, with Nanook's hostility being a main factor. Yet when I pressed Meso for his reasons for supporting the lynch, he played down his own hostility (he at least mentioned) and pointed at "the reasoning". He went on to make some other strange calls like comparing Byz' and Nanook's skill levels in favor of Byz, downplaying his obviously affected reasoning again.
Normally I'd expect Meso to see how weak the scum read was and act accordingly. Here he supported it. Additionally he (less) and Nictis (far more) needlessly reheated and in my opinion worsened and prolongated the hostilities. While I definitely don't like Nictis play, it was his usual bulldogging taken to the extreme. (Eh, let's be honest. It was worse.) But Meso's act makes me rather more suspicious right now.
Moving off his earlier suspicions yet throwing around the Byz=SK idea around. (As a joke this time around)Well, it tells me just about all my reads are very likely wrong.
Before EoD I thought we had most of the scum pinned down. But most of my reads were based on how scummy Nanook came off. I'm genuinely amazed he was town and I have no idea what he was doing.
So I am a lot less hung ho about lynching Byz or Rosen. I still would like an explanation from @Byzantine about that rapid jumping on and off the lynch at EoD.
I suppose it is a good thing that we seem to have only one scum kill. But it kind of worries me. Because the soul mechanic is much more helpful to town, and having only one scum faction, balance suggests either an unusually large scum team or one with a lot of power roles.
(Or Byzantine is the SK and whoever blocked them saved us from an extra nightkill)
"Byz and -Rosen are probably not scum."
Only a part of the convo. Reads like slightly discrediting Nictis. And we will get a repeat of this somewhere D2 or D3.
About the bolded part: Now it was a policy lynch, alright.
Definitely throwing suspicion on Nictis.
End to that earlier convo.
Small issue but might still be important. I'm coming up with a small suspicion on someone and ask two people to countercheck. Yeah, I wasn't giving any real leads that moment but look at the reactions. We have Meso that dismisses my ghosts and does nothing. Then we have ondine who might find other things suspicious than me but puts effort into actual scum hunting. One of both is known town by now...
Hard suspicion on Nictis. Plays you don't understand are always scum, as seen with Nanook.
See above.
Beginning and End of the rehashed convo re:"Rosen might be scum".
Feels havily like denigrating Nictis.
Sorry but that's always an easy call. Mind it gets repeated by Shadell later on.
Sorry, that is a bit nested in and I didn't realize it at that time. When and for what did your Shadell read change from town to scum?
I won't handle EoD, most has been already told.
Summary:
Reads mostly like denigrating Nictis. Sorry, I know the last summary was a bit more fleshed out.
Sorry, I stop my reasoning here. I worked on this stuff for quite a while now and I'm seriously tired. For D3 I'd say that Meso was trying to lynch Byzantine for being the SK. Please take this with a grain of salt right now. It's at least how I remember ist.
So in conclusion Meso has a nasty habbit this game to drive bad lynches. He was a major force behind the Nanook lynch D1, tried to get Nictis killed D2 and is trying to get Byz killed for the wrong reasons D3. If he flips scum, which I'm 95% sure by now, it looks rather bad for Shadell. IIRC her timing was terribly off. Quite when the suspicion on Meso started, she suggested to concentrate on low activity players. It's not a bad call but an easy call to divert attention off a teammate. And sadly nothing was gained from it.
[x] Lynch mesonoxian
Courtesy Ping @mesonoxian
Nictis
Best Sidekick
- Location
- Ninja Dave's Cookies
- Pronouns
- Any
Honestly, this just looks like fact checking to me? I don't think anyone's really sold on this, but this is just Shadell checking some of 1K's statements to see if they match up. Personally I'm trying to remember if 1K had done the whole "I have no QT routine" back in Crowns but don't really feel like going back to check.
It's not really so much a meta argument as just... checking what 1K has said, and there barely being anything else to look at.
This is a good post.
ondine
Pretty Princess of the Shadow Cabal
- Location
- A helluva town
- Pronouns
- She/her/hers
Hmmm how sure of this are you? Because I have an idea. I'm not certain about it. And it would involve info bleed like you wouldn't believe to discuss, but info bleed no one could do anything about. Thoughts?