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Even Further Beyond [Complete]

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I mean, if someone can provide a valid argument that negotiations with Zang can succeed, I guess I will change my vote?

And not because we will send our elven waifu to convince him ( and his granddaughter whose parents he murdered remember lol wtf )
What would be his reasons to accept the bargain?
Cuz the only argument I see for now is if we forge EFB Rain and basically threaten him that Suizhen will murder him real hard if he doesn't agree
Which
Eh
I'm not sure ZK can genuinely surrender?
Since his domain is all about growing and challenging things above his weight class again and again and again
 
@Rihaku

Can stack daecked form our father buff Suizhen power further?

I imagine we take the reality effect form our father and take control of fate across the empire and create stakdecked power that everyone in the empire will empower us.
 
Though it's not as up in the air as Zang Kong, it's worth considering what you intend to do with the Fates if they survive Suizhen's attack on them. Nigh-eternal torment as Baenlixnaire would like? Some other form of servitude (which must be appropriately horrible, but could be less senseless - if you want)? Or do you perhaps consider that their hand in the world might have been a good thing to some extent? That their constant revolutionizing at least lead to times of prosperity and peace, and prevented any truly monstrous tyrannies from persisting? Perhaps they deserve the cold relief of oblivion.
 
To argue explicitly for EFB Distillation, I think there is something valuable about being able to spread power as far and wide as seeding vampires allows. For a cost that is distinctly payable for us, we can create allies the likes of which the world has seen a scarce number of times before. While they wouldn't be particularly useful for either of the boss fights, being able to create an unfairly powerful force of loyal soldiers who we can disperse throughout the empire would be incredibly useful. The empire which, even once our life is no longer dependent on the age not passing, is also the single largest apparatus for gather, concentrating, moving, and distributing resources in the world, a tool which itself is valuable for ensuring Nameless's lifestyle, and for shaping the world as a whole into something more pleasing to him, and thus, something worth securing and reinforcing, something which I think an ever expanding group of extremely loyal, extremely powerful enforcers would be almost as if not more useful than a single mind-bogglingly powerful and wise regent would be. Particularly considering that we can still employ elves as administrators without empowering them all by putting them under our and Suizhen's aegis.
 
Rihaku said:
Though it's not as up in the air as Zang Kong, it's worth considering what you intend to do with the Fates if they survive Suizhen's attack on them. Nigh-eternal torment as Baenlixnaire would like? Some other form of servitude (which must be appropriately horrible, but could be less senseless - if you want)? Or do you perhaps consider that their hand in the world might have been a good thing to some extent? That their constant revolutionizing at least lead to times of prosperity and peace, and prevented any truly monstrous tyrannies from persisting? Perhaps they deserve the cold relief of oblivion.
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We'll make them binge-watch Santa Barbara for eternity, obviously
 
Wolfy said:
Rain takes our long term potential, takes it behind the shed and then shoots it in the face.
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tbh, with rain efb, the nameless and suizhen are so codependant that she might as well be his stand. the only way she could be more of a stand is if we used the stando create diagram on the armour.

[X] Rain
-[X] Go Even Further Beyond [10 BPs]
[x] Annihilation

Because turning Suizhen into our Stand is pretty great and she frankly deserves a lot better than what she's gotten from us.
 
Rihaku said:
Though it's not as up in the air as Zang Kong, it's worth considering what you intend to do with the Fates if they survive Suizhen's attack on them. Nigh-eternal torment as Baenlixnaire would like? Some other form of servitude (which must be appropriately horrible, but could be less senseless - if you want)? Or do you perhaps consider that their hand in the world might have been a good thing to some extent? That their constant revolutionizing at least lead to times of prosperity and peace, and prevented any truly monstrous tyrannies from persisting? Perhaps they deserve the cold relief of oblivion.
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Essence drain them into an Artifact, probably.
 
Maybe Nameless could invent Soulsteel or something, getting appropriately thorough revenge and more power through Artifice? But honestly, having come this far, there's no call for an eleventh hour change of heart where vengeance is concerned.
 
Rihaku said:
It's close, folks! Certainly within argument / omake range!
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I'll give it a shot at least.

When I look at this vote I'm reminded strongly of the vote we had earlier between Immortal and Philosopher King (and Sage but who cares about Sage) where we had the choice of abandoning our childish roots and trying to better the world or tripling down on the path of the Xianxia protag and gunning for maximum power. Power which might I add that we might not even go for now if we're going to avoid Immortal Awakening out of fear of Tribulation.

Now we have the choice between picking between yet greater Might or diversifying in order to empower others. This is especially egregious since picking Might turns the world into even more a hellhole as those who witness and covet the ring are warped by it. There's a case to be made for the Distillation in that it could allow us to empower a clique of elves to run the world for us but that carries its own issues and I personally don't care for it. What I care for is Rain for the implications it has for Nameless as a character and for the scrubs people who will live in a world where Nameless is victorious.

Once more we have the choice between gross power and putting a supernaturally talented leader in control of the world. Anyone who regrets Philosopher King losing or dislikes the idea of Nameless being unleashed on the multiverse with nothing except Aurelia as an ethical fetter should view this as an opportunity. By placing Suizhen in control of the Labyrinth Empire Nameless avoids doing any of the hard work he hates and ensures proper prosperous governance. But these are arguments which are readily apparently, what I haven't seen anyone mention so far are the effects that picking Rain has on Nameless's personality.

By forging Rain Nameless forsakes offensive creations with his Artifice and permanently binds himself to Suizhen at Loyalty 10. This establishes an unbreakable tie with the person who is most invested with ensuring that those without power live safe and happy lives. It gives him grounding to someone who is devoted to the common people regardless of how far Nameless might escalate using the might of the Thrice Great. Moreover Nameless would be motivated strongly to do things which make his friend happy even should she not ask for it. In this way Nameless would be incentivized to use the Diagram and Artifice to improve the world...when he isn't too busy snorting celestial cocaine at least.

If anyone is worried about the idea of a spoiled man with little care for others being handed unlimited power this is your chance to keep Nameless a benevolent force in the eternity to come.

Remember mindrape is a feature not a bug.
 
I think that depend on fate personality.


I don't think they are idealism when lady winter value her position than vengeance.


We drain their essence and do whatever that give us most BP form our vengeance trait.
 
Da Boyz said:
I'll give it a shot at least.

When I look at this vote I'm reminded strongly of the vote we had earlier between Immortal and Philosopher King (and Sage but who cares about Sage) where we had the choice of abandoning our childish roots and trying to better the world or tripling down on the path of the Xianxia protag and gunning for maximum power. Power which might I add that we might not even go for now if we're going to avoid Immortal Awakening out of fear of Tribulation.

Now we have the choice between picking between yet greater Might or diversifying in order to empower others. This is especially egregious since picking Might turns the world into even more a hellhole as those who witness and covet the ring are warped by it. There's a case to be made for the Distillation in that it could allow us to empower a clique of elves to run the world for us but that carries its own issues and I personally don't care for it. What I care for is Rain for the implications it has for Nameless as a character and for the scrubs people who will live in a world where Nameless is victorious.

Once more we have the choice between gross power and putting a supernaturally talented leader in control of the world. Anyone who regrets Philosopher King losing or dislikes the idea of Nameless being unleashed on the multiverse with nothing except Aurelia as an ethical fetter should view this as an opportunity. By placing Suizhen in control of the Labyrinth Empire Nameless avoids doing any of the hard work he hates and ensures proper prosperous governance. But these are arguments which are readily apparently, what I haven't seen anyone mention so far are the effects that picking Rain has on Nameless's personality.

By forging Rain Nameless forsakes offensive creations with his Artifice and permanently binds himself to Suizhen at Loyalty 10. This establishes an unbreakable tie with the person who is most invested with ensuring that those without power live safe and happy lives. It gives him grounding to someone who is devoted to the common people regardless of how far Nameless might escalate using the might of the Thrice Great. Moreover Nameless would be motivated strongly to do things which make his friend happy even should she not ask for it. In this way Nameless would be incentivized to use the Diagram and Artifice to improve the world...when he isn't too busy snorting celestial cocaine at least.

If anyone is worried about the idea of a spoiled man with little care for others being handed unlimited power this is your chance to keep Nameless a benevolent force in the eternity to come.

Remember mindrape is a feature not a bug.
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First of all, Sage was kick-ass, just less kick-ass than being Immortal (which honestly I hope Nameless has to go through with, despite fearing Tribulation, in particular during the fight with the Fates for either a truly dramatic final scene or an extremely xianxia-y mid-fight power-up).

Secondly, to a degree, this also serves as an argument against Norn for everyone who wanted to go Immortal, since if we grab Ring of Might, it's reasonably likely that Nameless will never attempt Immortal Awakening, which IMO is just a scene (regardless of where and when it happens) that I really want to be part of the story.

Thirdly, I feel like you are maybe overestimating the Suizhen's power to do good, even with an EFB dao like Swordmaiden. It is true that her personal skills for rulership will be enhanced, but what does that do on a broader scale? Do her reality effects warp to aid with rulership? Is she able to sense where her direct application is needed? Is she able to supernaturally persist in the minds of people, even those at the fringes of the empire? Does it let her be in many places at once? Ultimately, even with superhuman mental and physical abilities, in a world as impossibly huge as this one, a single perfect administrator may simple not be enough to create or maintain something as ponderous as the Winter Labyrinth.
 
Rihaku said:
That vengeance will be taken if Suizhen prevails is not in doubt. Its exact form, however, is in question.
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Turn them into mitigation batteries? Force them to revive the gods they had cast down and let those have their vengeance? Enjoy all of Heaven's luxuries while they can do naught but watch?
 
Aabcehmu said:
First of all, Sage was kick-ass, just less kick-ass than being Immortal (which honestly I hope Nameless has to go through with, despite fearing Tribulation, in particular during the fight with the Fates for either a truly dramatic final scene or an extremely xianxia-y mid-fight power-up).

Secondly, to a degree, this also serves as an argument against Norn for everyone who wanted to go Immortal, since if we grab Ring of Might, it's reasonably likely that Nameless will never attempt Immortal Awakening, which IMO is just a scene (regardless of where and when it happens) that I really want to be part of the story.

Thirdly, I feel like you are maybe overestimating the Suizhen's power to do good, even with an EFB dao like Swordmaiden. It is true that her personal skills for rulership will be enhanced, but what does that do on a broader scale? Do her reality effects warp to aid with rulership? Is she able to sense where her direct application is needed? Is she able to supernaturally persist in the minds of people, even those at the fringes of the empire? Does it let her be in many places at once? Ultimately, even with superhuman mental and physical abilities, in a world as impossibly huge as this one, a single perfect administrator may simple not be enough to create or maintain something as ponderous as the Winter Labyrinth.
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It's that her bullshit combat intuition is realigned to include "Good Governance" and "Rulership Skills" in it, where before it was only good at fite good.

And I'm going to be honest, one of the superpowers a good ruler has is D E L E G A T I O N

At least to good subordinates, which there should be no small number of if we've done a properly thorough job cleaning house.

Most importantly, this basically lets us mop up the Labyrinth Empire part by breaking the Fates over our knee (Even if they're Immortals like we want to be, being Immortal is not immunity to having violence visited upon you, it just means it doesn't stick in the long term--and clearing the table of their ability to interfere with us (Plus, you know, opening up Heaven as a place we can do our Tribulation in), is still enough to completely change the scope of the game--after all, a True Immortal can't get "You die now" from something as banal as a curse, not when it explicitly requires a "Cycle of Ages" bent to that Immortal's demise. It means when they recongeal, Nameless is beyond their ability to easily fuck with.

It also lets us dunk the Heroine for good measure.
 
Alectai said:
It's that her bullshit combat intuition is realigned to include "Good Governance" and "Rulership Skills" in it, where before it was only good at fite good.

And I'm going to be honest, one of the superpowers a good ruler has is D E L E G A T I O N

At least to good subordinates, which there should be no small number of if we've done a properly thorough job cleaning house.

Most importantly, this basically lets us mop up the Labyrinth Empire part by breaking the Fates over our knee (Even if they're Immortals like we want to be, being Immortal is not immunity to having violence visited upon you, it just means it doesn't stick in the long term--and clearing the table of their ability to interfere with us (Plus, you know, opening up Heaven as a place we can do our Tribulation in), is still enough to completely change the scope of the game--after all, a True Immortal can't get "You die now" from something as banal as a curse, not when it explicitly requires a "Cycle of Ages" bent to that Immortal's demise. It means when they recongeal, Nameless is beyond their ability to easily fuck with.

It also lets us dunk the Heroine for good measure.
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It's true that there will probably be a surplus of people who are good at the tasks of administration. Good ol' Dad might even be part of them depending on how he changes his once all the empires fall apart. At the same time, though, the world is still absolutely massive, and while at stage 18 Suizhen while naturally be able to traverse with ease, there will probably still be a limit to the number of places she can be at once, and unless the Swordmaiden's reality effects or extrusion exert some kind of inherently stabilizing influence across the empire (which, isn't impossible but also isn't mentioned anywhere), there isn't a limit to the number of places Trouble can be, and as the Age of Might continues to stretch across time, the number of people who can trouble Suizhen's chosen adminstrators before she has time to abandon whatever job she's doing and punch their shit in will almost certainly increase, and as the tasks of rulership consume more of her time, she will have less to give to training and cultivation (and the chances of Nameless continuing to cultivate almost nil once he's free from responsibility), which introduces the tiny but non-zero chance that someone will luck into the sequence events they need to actually reach power equivalent to stage 18. KZ is apparently almost reaching stage 17 after a mere 5000-ish years, and without the cycle there to move things along (or even if it just slows down to be equivalent to other seasons, since Winter's age have been previously described as particularly short), it's possible that Suizhen will have to rule for much, much longer than that.
 
[X] Tyranshal's Distillation [Blood, Battle]
-[X] Go Even Further Beyond [10 BPs]
[X] Negotiation

I don't mind Rain at all, but the Ring of Might is extremely unappealing in a number of ways. One that I haven't seen mentioned yet is that it's a Fate diagram. Now the description text talks about commanding fate rather than the reverse, but given that the way it manifests is as a Ring - and the Elves with their three Rings haven't been able to do much against the Fates - I don't find it entirely trustworthy. At the very least, not trustworthy enough to sink 10 Beyond Points into at the cost of serious drawbacks.

Ultimately, it's also once again a choice between two interesting and thematic options for more power, and one option that just gives more power and that's it, and I'm really disappointed that once again the just-more-power option seems to be ahead.

As to Zang Kong, my feelings are rather mixed.
 
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Aabcehmu said:
It's true that there will probably be a surplus of people who are good at the tasks of administration. Good ol' Dad might even be part of them depending on how he changes his once all the empires fall apart. At the same time, though, the world is still absolutely massive, and while at stage 18 Suizhen while naturally be able to traverse with ease, there will probably still be a limit to the number of places she can be at once, and unless the Swordmaiden's reality effects or extrusion exert some kind of inherently stabilizing influence across the empire (which, isn't impossible but also isn't mentioned anywhere), there isn't a limit to the number of places Trouble can be, and as the Age of Might continues to stretch across time, the number of people who can trouble Suizhen's chosen adminstrators before she has time to abandon whatever job she's doing and punch their shit in will almost certainly increase, and as the tasks of rulership consume more of her time, she will have less to give to training and cultivation (and the chances of Nameless continuing to cultivate almost nil once he's free from responsibility), which introduces the tiny but non-zero chance that someone will luck into the sequence events they need to actually reach power equivalent to stage 18. KZ is apparently almost reaching stage 17 after a mere 5000-ish years, and without the cycle there to move things along (or even if it just slows down to be equivalent to other seasons, since Winter's age have been previously described as particularly short), it's possible that Suizhen will have to rule for much, much longer than that.
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Yong Liefang--based on what we've read? Would absolutely back a Suzhen Empress to the god damn hilt.

He's an idealist, putting the Perfect Idealist as a master would get him in our camp.

Beyond that? Well, her base Dao was already going to be something that was good at timespace warping shit--if only to counter it. We already know EFB Rain means that she can bodyguard Nameless even when they're nowhere near anyone. She might not be everywhere at once, but she can almost certainly be precisely where she needs to be at any given moment.
 
Aabcehmu said:
Thirdly, I feel like you are maybe overestimating the Suizhen's power to do good, even with an EFB dao like Swordmaiden. It is true that her personal skills for rulership will be enhanced, but what does that do on a broader scale? Do her reality effects warp to aid with rulership? Is she able to sense where her direct application is needed? Is she able to supernaturally persist in the minds of people, even those at the fringes of the empire? Does it let her be in many places at once? Ultimately, even with superhuman mental and physical abilities, in a world as impossibly huge as this one, a single perfect administrator may simple not be enough to create or maintain something as ponderous as the Winter Labyrinth.
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I trust Suizhen to be able to take care of the day to day running of everything and then whenever an issue which she can't handle crops up/she wants to improve things beyond her means she contacts Nameless. Because being BFF's with god has its perks and at Loyalty 10 Nameless would be happy to make her happy so long as it doesn't drastically cut into his decadence time.
 
Alectai said:
Yong Liefang--based on what we've read? Would absolutely back a Suzhen Empress to the god damn hilt.

He's an idealist, putting the Perfect Idealist as a master would get him in our camp.

Beyond that? Well, her base Dao was already going to be something that was good at timespace warping shit--if only to counter it. We already know EFB Rain means that she can bodyguard Nameless even when they're nowhere near anyone. She might not be everywhere at once, but she can almost certainly be precisely where she needs to be at any given moment.
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Oh, sorry, I was unclear. Liefang would definitely, for sure, 100% back a Suizhen empire. We agree on that. I just don't know whether his current...management style? Would be appropriate for the empire as it would become. Particularly since its seems like he's probably gotten most of his experience tearing down bad systems, rather than building up good ones.

And, that's fair, it's possible that Swordmaiden will give her the leeway to always be where Nameless needs her, even when it comes to matters of state rather than personal danger. But the lack of multiposition is really what I'm trying to hit home. Trouble does show up in one place at a time, and even with stage 18 rulership I suspect that there will be problems that Suizhen needs at least amount of time it takes speak a few words to solve, since there won't be people who are conveniently wrong enough to deserve righteous face-punching. And when there are twenty trillion problems that require talking, even if Suizhen can just blip from one to the other, there may well be enough time for more trouble to start elsewhere, especially if something or someone is actively sowing discord. Such a force of chaos would probably need to avoid places Suizhen's visited recently, since such high-tier rulership will probably inspire devotion in those she speaks to, but the empire is big, and that means there's a lot of room for trouble.

e-

Da Boyz said:
I trust Suizhen to be able to take care of the day to day running of everything and then whenever an issue which she can't handle crops up/she wants to improve things beyond her means she contacts Nameless. Because being BFF's with god has its perks and at Loyalty 10 Nameless would be happy to make her happy so long as it doesn't drastically cut into his decadence time.
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This is fair, but, like, what problems is Nameless the Layabout going to be able solve that Suizhen wouldn't? He would be weaker than her, less skilled at rulership than her, less invested in social wellbeing than her, etc. So at best, he would let Suizhen be in two places at once rather than one, which IMO may still not be enough?
 
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