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Res Publica: A Quest of Ancient Rome

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Gaius Tyrannus said:
First off, love the quest. Just read the whole thing. My mind is exploded.

Secondly, this is the war with Mithridates? Then in a decade if the time line remains the same, we have The Third Servile War, which means Spartacus, which might mean Crassus.

Yay.
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Once more the slow, dumb years
Bring their avenging cycle round,
And, more than Hellas taught of old,
Our wiser lesson shall be told,
Of slaves uprising, freedom-crowned,
To break, not wield, the scourge wet with their blood and tears.

;)
 
Gaius Tyrannus said:
First off, love the quest. Just read the whole thing. My mind is exploded.

Secondly, this is the war with Mithridates? Then in a decade if the time line remains the same, we have The Third Servile War, which means Spartacus, which might mean Crassus.

Yay.
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The conspicuous point of departure in the timeline is that Marius the Elder doesn't die of natural causes in 86 BC. Just about anything up to that time (including the birth of Crassus and Spartacus) is likely to be roughly as historical. Anything after that time is apt to be increasingly butterflied.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Atticus is an acquaintance of ours and Cicero's. He knows so much about Greece and is such a Hellenophile that in Rome his cognomen is "Athenian" the same way ours is "Dark-Haired." Writing him is going to be great practice for learning Greek and Greek culture. Plus, he's a philosopher like Cicero, so while he might not be AS good for Intelligence XP or the like, he's likely to improve comparable skills. Since I gather the correspondence vote has been made independent of other votes, I want to choose him to see what happens.
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You make a pretty compelling argument. I'm going to go back and read some of the earlier updates to brush up on our relationship with him. I might be changing the plan to write to him instead, depending.

You're not wrong about the Marians being riskier than the other two choices, as the update specifically points out that Cinna is stamping down, it also mentions that some of her sources have already gone missing.

Telamon said:
Her spy networks have become harder and riskier to maintain, as Cinna has stamped down on anything he perceives as being traitorous or deceitful to the Marian cause. Servants who were too willing to talk have disappeared, replaced with more loyal ones who value their lives more than coin.
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I am curious why you'd prioritize the Catilinarians over the Sullans, though. The Sullans were specifically noted to be on the back foot, so it wouldn't carry much in the way of risk, and the Catilinarians are unlikely do to anything before the Sullans would.

I'm not very worried, regardless. Prosperina is very capable, and has been the family spymaster for as long as Atellus has been living. Informants might go missing, but even if Prosperina rolls poorly, I doubt Cinna would turn the mob against our family while we're fighting on his side, and have so much influence over the legion now that Sertorius is gone.

I'm prioritizing Res Publica over Study because I think we're most likely to be running into the rogue legion before dealing with Marius in any major capacity. Not sure if the following is saying that we're heading straight for the traitors, or linking of with Marius first, though.
Telamon said:
To quell the people's fury, Asiaticus has been given command of the VI legion and co-imperium over Asia with Marius. He will sail east, defeat the traitor Fimbria, and aid Marius in besting the Pontic King Mithridates Eupator.
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Solid points by you on the Consul vote @Japanime. I didn't leave him out to plot against him, but rather couldn't I find the space to fit the action in. Maybe swap out Res Publica for it? It'd push off our studying for a turn to make a better impression. Feels kind of odd to have one action to make the legion specifically loyal to us rather than him, and then also specify an action on him, though.
 
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Telamon said:
Once more the slow, dumb years
Bring their avenging cycle round,
And, more than Hellas taught of old,
Our wiser lesson shall be told,
Of slaves uprising, freedom-crowned,
To break, not wield, the scourge wet with their blood and tears.
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John Greenleaf Whittier, Anti Slavery Poem.

The Wars ahead will be brutal. We may not survive.

Edit: what doth the meowth meaneth?
 
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The wars ahead will be brutal, this war will be brutal. And we may very well die.

But the opportunities that lie within such wars make the risks acceptable.

For within these wars are riches and glory untold and more importantly than that, a chance to be a legend. One of the greats like Alexander before us or Ceaser after.

Lets go make our mark on history, shall we?
 
triumph8w said:
The wars ahead will be brutal, this war will be brutal. And we may very well die.

But the opportunities that lie within such wars make the risks acceptable.

For within these wars are riches and glory untold and more importantly than that, a chance to be a legend. One of the greats like Alexander before us or Ceaser after.

Lets go make our mark on history, shall we?
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A footnote in a text book, or a Library section devoted to us? Let's make it the later.
 
[X] Plan Scope Out The Territory

Writing Atticus instead of our mentor has the added benefit of not having our letter go through someone under the most intense of surveillance.
 
Meep said:
Solid points by you on the Consul vote @Japanime. I didn't leave him out to plot against him, but rather couldn't I find the space to fit the action in. Maybe swap out Res Publica for it? It'd push off our studying for a turn to make a better impression. Feels kind of odd to have one action to make the legion specifically loyal to us rather than him, and then also specify an action on him, though.
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I think the Res Publica action can afford to be taken later as I don't think that we'll immediately find ourselves facing off against Fimbria and his band of traitors, likely as we will have to find them and dig them out from where they are holed up.

As for taking the Gather Support Action and speaking to the Consul, I don't necessarily see it as being odd, especially as we can frame it in a better way than making the Legion loyal to us. I think Asiaticus knows that the Legion is currently having doubts, morale issues, over their leadership, and his track record gives them no reason to be confident, especially if his poor showing during the Social War is anything to go by, something I'm sure men like Mercator will know all about. By taking the Consul action we can at the very least explain ourselves by telling him that we are simply trying to bolster the Legion's morale in the best way we know how, by calling back to our own actions and built up reputation with them, rather than trying to appeal to the superfluous lineage of the Consul. Considering how the Legion we will soon be fighting was originally lost due to their belief in the incompetence of their commander, at the very least this should show the Consul that we are trying to keep the Legion stable.
 
Telamon said:
Correspondence: As part of your efforts to stay on top of events in Rome, you write to one of your contacts elsewhere in the Republic. With such long travel times, anything you write will take a long time to arrive. However, that does not mean you cannot write. You write to... (response will arrive in 2-3 turns)
--[] Scaevola
--[] Cicero
--[] Atticus
--[] Proserpina
--[] Catiline
--[] Volero
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All right, here's the new 'Correspondence' action.

I've already stated my position: Cicero is the only source we've found for 'Intelligence' XP, the most valuable commodity in this quest (related: we should really consider saving our 'banked XP' from discussion/reaction posts for the high-tier stats, that are hardest to upgrade). We should prioritize letters to Cicero, if only to ensure we start plugging away (slow-and-steady style) at that long-term project.
Telamon said:
Your second correspondent takes far longer to respond, and it is just when you think Cicero's forgotten that a sheaf of papers as thick as your wrist arrives in camp. You are baffled, and it takes you a few minutes of reading to realize that this is all one letter. Those pages contain anything and everything, from ruminations on legal developments to topics as mundane as the rumors and scandals of Rome --a Senator's daughter was caught in bed with five centurions half a week ago-- and as abstract as a long tangent on the inherent selfishness of many of the Greek philosophies, to which Cicero half-jokingly attributes the moral decay of Roman culture. It takes you almost a week to read, but no matter the topic, it is almost always pleasurable reading.

At first, you do not think you can match the erudition and wit of such a letter, but as you begin to draft out your response, you find yourself answering him in kind. Cicero wrote about his experiences, so you write about your own. You tell him of the scandals and troubles of the legion, from the petty to the grim, and of the fierce, unbending resistance of the Samnites. You write of your own near-admiration for their tenacity and determination, of your own successes at Aeclanum and elsewhere, and of the growing responsibilities --and glories-- heaped upon you by Sertorius. You match Cicero wit for wit and wordplay for wordplay, and when you are finished, you have a stack of papers to rival Cicero's own. You have Rufus look it over, then pay the Legion's fastest messenger fifteen denarii to see it to Rome as quickly as possible. In the weeks to come, you quickly strike up a correspondence with the young lawyer, and his letters to you come to provide a welcome break from the stifling strictures of the legion.

390 XP to Intelligence!

400 XP to Education!

...

Letters to Cicero: 1d20 +4 (Renowned Intelligence) +2 (Accomplished Education) +1 (Gift of Minerva) = 19
Needed: 15
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It's also worth pointing out that our attempts to correspond with Scaevola and Prosperina gave us no real benefit -- our initial letters to Scaevola gave us a bit of info on Rome, but no XP, while we were too incompetent at Subterfuge to even read the letters from our spymistress. (At least now we have Subterfuge 8, so it probably won't happen again, but still...).

Telamon said:
Aside from this, however, your duties have become a routine and ordered part of your life, leaving you some small free time for your own matters. For the first time in the months since the campaign began, your thoughts can turn at last to Rome, and the friends and family you left there. You write first to Proserpina, who responds almost immediately. She has been keeping herself apprised of the well-being of your family and estate — both your sisters are doing well, she says, though the eldest is receiving many callers and suitors from all walks of life. You will have your hands full with them when you return to Rome, she warns.

Other messages follow this first, written in a special cipher your father invented for just this purpose back in Spain. You are a mite rusty with it, but when you recall the gist of it —the first ninety-four words of Scipio Africanus' memoirs correspond to the letters of the alphabet, backwards — you can puzzle out the messages, though it takes you a bit longer than you'd like. You can't escape the nagging feeling you've missed something, but the letters are largely decipherable, at least.

(Needed 8 Subterfuge)
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On the other hand, this means that the benefits of letter-writing are not automatic 'send letter, get XP'. Since we know correspondence with Cicero does give XP, that's the safest bet; we can try out other correspondents (especially Atticus) during the 2-3 turns we're waiting for a response.

...Actually, @Telamon, can you confirm whether sending letters at this point would give us future XP? The turn where we sent letters to Scaevola and Proserpina don't quite fit the pattern -- they were our first round of letters, so had you just not finalized that mechanic? Or is XP gains limited to certain correspondents, while others would give other kinds of benefits like information or connections?

Simon_Jester said:
Atticus is an acquaintance of ours and Cicero's. He knows so much about Greece and is such a Hellenophile that in Rome his cognomen is "Athenian" the same way ours is "Dark-Haired." Writing him is going to be great practice for learning Greek and Greek culture. Plus, he's a philosopher like Cicero, so while he might not be AS good for Intelligence XP or the like, he's likely to improve comparable skills. Since I gather the correspondence vote has been made independent of other votes, I want to choose him to see what happens.
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Simon_Jester said:
I bet Atticus is good for Philosophy/Education/Intelligence XP, which I suspect would have second-order benefits if we could level it up. It's also a 'wild card' option precisely because it's less likely to be chosen any given time; we might get interestingly different results from it. Atticus is due to move (as per his name) to Athens at some point in the nearish future, and we may get exposure to Greek philosophical concepts. It'd be interesting to learn what we can get from that.
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I definitely agree with @Simon_Jester that we should try sending a letter to Atticus, and fingers-crossed it will give similar benefits as Cicero. And given the timeliness argument (get information on Greece from the Graeco-phile) there's an argument for sending the letter to Atticus first. But I'm leery of any reason to delay the letter to Cicero -- boosting intelligence is going to be a long-term project, emphasize on the long, so minimizing delays is crucial to making sure we actually level up that stat. There will always be a reason to write to someone else, to ask Scaevola for networking help, to get updates from Proserpina about goings-on in Rome, etc. What we need is the proper Roman virtue of discipline: that every time we receive a letter from Cicero, we respond in kind as soon as we can.

My goal is to 'level up' our Intelligence from 'Renowned' (16) to 'Epic' (18) by the end of our ten-year tribunate.

It'll take a lot of XP, but as long as we're consistent, we should have the time to make it a reality, and 'Epic' intelligence will be worth it. If I'm reading the 'mechanics' post correctly, that would give +6 to every roll, compared to the +4 we get from our current 'Renowned' Intelligence. That +2 bonus represents +10% better odds for nearly every action we take, including every single training roll in this quest.
 
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[X] Plan prepare for War
[x] The Sullans: You tell Proserpina to keep an eye on the activities of the Sullan partisans still in Rome. Though greatly diminished in power, they still have enough influence to make plays that could upset the delicate balance of power in Rome. (-7 Talents)

[x] Gather Support: Sertorius may be gone, but you are still here. You reassure the men's worries and fears, and promise that if nothing else, you yourself will lead them to glory and wealth in the hills of Asia.

Correspondence: As part of your efforts to stay on top of events in Rome, you write to one of your contacts elsewhere in the Republic. With such long travel times, anything you write will take a long time to arrive. However, that does not mean you cannot write. You write to... (response will arrive in 2-3 turns)
--[x] Scaevola

[x] Si Vis Pacem: You begin brushing up on your Greek, in ancticipation of subjugating Greek towns and villages in Asia.
[x] Para Bellum: You begin studying the campaigns against the Macedonians and the Greeks over a century ago, hoping to learn more about Greek tactics, that you might counter them better.
[x] Res Publica: You study the formations of your own legions, the way Romans fight. After all, you may soon be doing war with Romans -- and what is more Roman than that?

Ok this plan does both of the tactic options because I believe we will be fighting Greeks and romans sooner than later. Meeting with the Counsul did not interesting me even thou in history he was Cicero father in law. Really can't help us too much with leveling since while he was good but not Cicero great. I am writing our mentor because he was famous and popular in Asia if he does not have some pull we can use I would be surprised.
 
I've been flip-flopping on the choices in my head, but we might be able to fit our various studying actions in next turn, while still getting full use of them.

I'm thinking about changing [] Preparing for Asia to include The Consul instead of Res Publica. I'm also swapping the correspondence to speak with Atticus instead of Scaevola. What do you two think? @Crimson Alchemis @Gumiho
 
Meep said:
You make a pretty compelling argument. I'm going to go back and read some of the earlier updates to brush up on our relationship with him. I might be changing the plan to write to him instead, depending.
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Scaevola is also a good choice, in all fairness. I've been wanting to write to Atticus for a long time, though. And frankly, I can count on Scaevola to tell us a very specifically slanted version of events in Rome; I want more perspectives. And I want Atticus as a friend.

My ideal letter-writing sequence looks something like, oh...

Atticus->Proserpina->Cicero->Scaevola->Cicero->...

You're not wrong about the Marians being riskier than the other two choices, as the update specifically points out that Cinna is stamping down, it also mentions that some of her sources have already gone missing.

I am curious why you'd prioritize the Catilinarians over the Sullans, though. The Sullans were specifically noted to be on the back foot, so it wouldn't carry much in the way of risk, and the Catilinarians are unlikely do to anything before the Sullans would.
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Remember Pompey's conspiracy. That wasn't among the older, established Sullans like Scaevola. It was among the younger optimates- I wouldn't be surprised if some of the same men who were part of Pompey's conspiracy were also part of the Catilinarians.

I'm not very worried, regardless. Prosperina is very capable, and has been the family spymaster for as long as Atellus has been living. Informants might go missing, but even if Prosperina rolls poorly, I doubt Cinna would turn the mob against our family while we're fighting on his side, and have so much influence over the legion now that Sertorius is gone.
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Well the thing is, "come on, what's the worst that could happen" isn't the most convincing argument. ;P

More to the point, it's not clear on me what we're gaining in exchange for the increased expense in talents (note that the difference between four and ten talents is a big deal at our current level of wealth). We have a rough idea in broad what the Marians are up to, we know how they're likely to react to things that might happen in Rome. The only way that investment pays off is if we crit and get some kind of actionable important secret like "the Marians are negotiating with Pompey and he wants your head as a cost of his allegiance." We don't even know if such a secret exists, let alone whether we can hope to find it.

Intel on the Marians is really only worth the price, in my opinion, if we're planning to flip to Sulla and preparing towards that end. Because Sulla, being an outlaw whose contacts in Rome are being closely watched by the Marians, probably needs all the intel we can get.

I'm prioritizing Res Publica over Study because I think we're most likely to be running into the rogue legion before dealing with Marius in any major capacity. Not sure if the following is saying that we're heading straight for the traitors, or linking of with Marius first, though.
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That seems like an unjustified assumption. Marius would be unwise to leave his forces divided if he could help it, especially when the reinforcement legion is commanded by men of no extraordinary merit- men like Asiaticus and boys like Atellus, as opposed to someone like Sertorius.

We may end up fighting the renegade Romans right away, but it's not an automatic certainty.

Solid points by you on the Consul vote @Japanime. I didn't leave him out to plot against him, but rather couldn't I find the space to fit the action in. Maybe swap out Res Publica for it? It'd push off our studying for a turn to make a better impression. Feels kind of odd to have one action to make the legion specifically loyal to us rather than him, and then also specify an action on him, though.
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We want to meet him so we know who and what he is. Does he have an excessive overconfidence in his own limited abilities? Does he have a realistic appreciation of his strengths and weaknesses? Is he willing to agree to trust us and delegate authority to us, or is he going to see any attempt on our part to assert ourselves as a form of betrayal? Can we work with him, and is he an active threat to the legion, or an opportunity for Atellus to stretch his legs and continue to gain experience with command?

racnor said:
Writing Atticus instead of our mentor has the added benefit of not having our letter go through someone under the most intense of surveillance.
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That's a good point, and was dancing around in my mind.

Asiaticus is definitely politically savvy, and like Cinna probably regards Scaevola as a threat. With Scaevola being spied on at home, and with our own legate wanting to know what we're up to, writing to Scaevola means a high risk that our outbound letter will be read (probably safe enough) and a very high risk that our inbound letter will be read (which could be bad since Scaevola will predictably complain about how bad the situation in Rome under Marian rule is).

We can write Atticus or Cicero without looking like a potential optimates-Sullan mole in Marius' literal camp. Writing Scaevola is riskier in that regard. Sertorius, who was closer to home and more secure against the threats of betrayal and of attack by Sulla, was unlikely to worry about that so much.

Publicola said:
It'll take a lot of XP, but as long as we're consistent, we should have the time to make it a reality, and 'Epic' intelligence will be worth it. If I'm reading the 'mechanics' post correctly, that would give +6 to every roll, compared to the +4 we get from our current 'Renowned' Intelligence. That +2 bonus represents +10% better odds for every single action we take.
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Uh, @Publicola ...

I hate to break this to you, but if you look at the campaign so far, we don't actually get +4 to every roll from our Intelligence stat. Most combat actions involve rolls whose bonus comes from our Military stat (i.e. Cicero probably has towering Intelligence but mediocre or low Military). Winning people over has historically called on our Charisma stat. And so on.

So we're looking at +10% odds on certain specific rolls, plus (I think) enhanced XP gain. Don't get me wrong, I think it'll be quite rewarding, but I'm not sure it's worth the opportunity cost to mono-focus on it in the early years of Atellus' life.

Nurgle said:
[] Plan prepare for War
[] The Sullans: You tell Proserpina to keep an eye on the activities of the Sullan partisans still in Rome. Though greatly diminished in power, they still have enough influence to make plays that could upset the delicate balance of power in Rome. (-7 Talents)

[] Gather Support: Sertorius may be gone, but you are still here. You reassure the men's worries and fears, and promise that if nothing else, you yourself will lead them to glory and wealth in the hills of Asia.

Correspondence: As part of your efforts to stay on top of events in Rome, you write to one of your contacts elsewhere in the Republic. With such long travel times, anything you write will take a long time to arrive. However, that does not mean you cannot write. You write to... (response will arrive in 2-3 turns)
--[] Scaevola

[] Si Vis Pacem: You begin brushing up on your Greek, in ancticipation of subjugating Greek towns and villages in Asia.
[] Para Bellum: You begin studying the campaigns against the Macedonians and the Greeks over a century ago, hoping to learn more about Greek tactics, that you might counter them better.
[] Res Publica: You study the formations of your own legions, the way Romans fight. After all, you may soon be doing war with Romans -- and what is more Roman than that?

Ok this plan does both of the tactic options because I believe we will be fighting Greeks and romans sooner than later. Meeting with the Counsul did not interesting me even thou in history he was Cicero father in law. Really can't help us too much with leveling since while he was good but not Cicero great. I am writing our mentor because he was famous and popular in Asia if he does not have some pull we can use I would be surprised.
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Your plan formatting is, um. Could you format it like a regular plan?

I'm not sure it's a good idea to monofocus on the tactics options. Right now we have HUGE X-factors in terms of how our own legion will react to the situation. Our own officers' inclinations and loyalties are uncertain. Asiaticus' abilities and personality are uncertain- is he a vainglorious fool who will get us all killed if we obey him, a sensible politician who just happens to know that he's not a great military leader and is willing to delegate, is he suspicious of us or trusting of us, what does he already know about us, and so on.

Basically, grinding our study actions in pursuit of better combat rolls may be a good idea, but good combat rolls only get us so far if the legion is riven by internal dissension, if the officers don't trust the commander, or if the commander is an erratic fool and we haven't taken steps to keep his tendencies under control.
 
Simon_Jester said:
So we're looking at +10% odds on certain specific rolls, plus (I think) enhanced XP gain.
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You're right that Intelligence doesn't factor into every combat roll -- I'll correct that now -- but if I'm remembering correcting, it applies to the vast majority of rolls we've seen, including quite a few military-based rolls that involved Atellus planning or in some way using his head. Plus, it does apply to every training roll I've seen, regardless of the skill; between that and the enhanced XP gain, Intelligence is the God Stat of this quest.

I agree with all of your other points, and really like your plan. I'd prefer letters to Cicero then to Atticus, but either way works, just so long as we get to Cicero next turn. On the other hand, it sounds like you and a few other folks want to reach out to Scaevola next for his connections in Asia Minor, which means we wouldn't get to Cicero until Turn 3, which represents one whole 'write letter > wait for reply' cycle. I'm saying we should start the cycle with Cicero now, and use the 2-3 turns while we wait to take care of other business.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Remember Pompey's conspiracy. That wasn't among the older, established Sullans like Scaevola. It was among the younger optimates- I wouldn't be surprised if some of the same men who were part of Pompey's conspiracy were also part of the Catilinarians.

Well the thing is, "come on, what's the worst that could happen" isn't the most convincing argument. ;P
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Pompey's conspiracy was found out because Pompey told the wrong person, Atellus, who then told Scaevola. Not because of any spies we had.

And it's less 'What's the worst that could happen?' and more that I don't think Prosperina is likely to mess up, and if she does, then I don't expect the consequences to be immediately lethal, though I acknowledge they could be. She could also theoretically get caught spying on the Catilinarians, which could have poor consequences, but that's not viewed as a problem because the Catilinarians don't matter. They might be rich, young, and impulsive, but they aren't Pompey, who had the support of the legions. Missing out on their conspiracy, assuming they even have one, is unlikely to matter to us directly. Meanwhile, the Marians were noted to be kinda paranoid, a lot of people with ties to the optimates are dying, which is why knowing what they're planning might very well save Scaevola's or even our own family's life. I think the risk is worth the reward in the case of spying on the Marians, while I don't see spying on the Catilinarians to have much of a reward at all.

I agree that the Consul is likely more impactful than Res Publica though, and I'm waiting on some responses before I change it. I think the minor risk of fighting another legion next turn is worth taking to extend an olive branch to our new commander. I've already swapped the correspondence to Atticus.

Humorously, our plans would end up the same with the sole difference being who we spy on.
 
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Publicola said:
You're right that Intelligence doesn't factor into every combat roll -- I'll correct that now -- but if I'm remembering correcting, it applies to the vast majority of rolls we've seen, including quite a few military-based rolls that involved Atellus planning or in some way using his head. Plus, it does apply to every training roll I've seen, regardless of the skill; between that and the enhanced XP gain, Intelligence is the God Stat of this quest.
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Well... demigod stat. It's like, I'm pretty sure the various Gifts we voted on at quest start were actually fairly well balanced. Things like the Gift of Bellona making us a terrifying hand-to-hand warrior, or the Gift of Apollo making us an oratorical prodigy, versus the Gift of Mars giving us a flat +5 to all war rolls, versus the Gift of Minerva making us capital-S Smart, versus the Gift of Venus making us the darling of every woman and every not-entirely-hetero man in Rome.

I mean, SV, so of course we voted Minerva, but that doesn't mean that was the only way to do well. Having excellence in other stats might well have been leveraged to greater successes (more XP gain) or more helpful instructive allies (more XP gain) or to just not needing the XP in the first place because we're kicking ass in the relevant areas right out of character generation.

But you're not wrong and I support your basic notion of grinding Intelligence through letter-writing. And also if we get any other intellectual opportunities, such as conversing with Greek philosophers.

I agree with all of your other points, and really like your plan. I'd prefer letters to Cicero then to Atticus, but either way works, just so long as we get to Cicero next turn. On the other hand, it sounds like you and a few other folks want to reach out to Scaevola next for his connections in Asia Minor, which means we wouldn't get to Cicero until Turn 3, which represents one whole 'write letter > wait for reply' cycle. I'm saying we should start the cycle with Cicero now, and use the 2-3 turns while we wait to take care of other business.
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I consider Atticus to be a compromise solution. There's a good chance that we'll get benefits LIKE Cicero's*, because Atticus is like Cicero in that he's a very educated and intelligent young Roman, someone Cicero regards as a peer even if we today view him as a lesser luminary. And there's also a good chance that we'll get benefits to our efforts to learn Greek and to learn about Greece.
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*(It occurs to me that which stats and skills gain XP from a given letter-writer may be semi-random. For instance, it would be in-character for XP from Scaevola's letters could plausibly apply to Law, Oratory, Philosophy, Administration, or theoretically even Education or Subterfuge if he cared to instruct us in those areas).

Meep said:
Pompey's conspiracy was found out because Pompey told the wrong person, Atellus, who then told Scaevola. Not because of any spies we had.
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Well sort of; from a different point of view the plan was found out because of the only spy we had- ourselves. :p

More seriously,

And it's less 'What's the worst that could happen?' and more that I don't think Prosperina is likely to mess up, and if she does, then I don't expect the consequences to be immediately lethal, though I acknowledge they could be. She could also theoretically get caught spying on the Catilinarians, which could have poor consequences, but that's not viewed as a problem because the Catilinarians don't matter. They might be rich, young, and impulsive, but they aren't Pompey, who had the support of the legions. Missing out on their conspiracy, assuming they even have one, is unlikely to matter to us directly.
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I don't know. Again, they might well be associated with Pompey themselves- in which case there's a fair chance that if Pompey is engaged in conspiracy in Rome, the Catilinarians are aware of it. This is even more likely given that Catulus, the Catilinarians' patron, has a very strong grudge against the Marians and Gratidianus in particular for driving his father to suicide.

OTL, Catiline brutally tortured Gratidianus to death in a ritualized killing during Sulla's proscriptions, and we have reason to think Catulus put him up to it.

These guys are capable of some pretty appalling and extreme things. And they're definitely tied to at least one, maybe more, prominent Romans who have reason to try and disrupt the Marians' hold on power if they can find a way to do so. And by the same token, they represent a potential weak link in other people's conspiracies. Lots of slaves, lots of parties, lots of drunkenness, and so on. It'd probably be a lot easier to find out about a plot to assassinate Cinna, or about Pompey hypothetically getting a brainwave about marching on Rome, from Catiline gossiping abut it at a party, than to find out about it by spying on Pompey directly.

Meanwhile, the Marians were noted to be kinda paranoid, a lot of people with ties to the optimates are dying, which is why knowing what they're planning might very well save Scaevola's or even our own family's life. I think the risk is worth the reward in the case of spying on the Marians
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The flip side of this is that if we're caught, or if the Marians figure out we intervened against them, they have the power to make us regret it.

I'd rather not take on extra risk ourselves, just to learn more about the relatively predictable actions of the Marians.

I agree that the Consul is likely more impactful than Res Publica though, and I'm waiting on some responses before I change it. I think the minor risk of fighting another legion next turn is worth taking to extend an olive branch to our new commander. I've already swapped the correspondence to Atticus.

Humorously, our plans would end up the same with the sole difference being who we spy on.
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It's been known to happen...
 
[X] Making Educated Guesses
-[X] The Catilinarians (-4 Talents)
-[X] Theo
-[X] Gather Support
-[X] Correspondence
--[X] Atticus
-[X] Si Vis Pacem
-[X] The Consul
-[X] Study

I remain of the position that we can always social later, but soon we'll have more pressing concerns than studying. I acquiesce that we should talk to the man nominally entrusted with the lives of our men.

Overall this should provide a lot of synergy when we want to bring back Roman control over her own territories since we'll be learning Greek, hopefully getting some insight into the Greek character and learn how greater generals worked in this scenario.

I'm still loathe to leave out the rest of the study options.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Atticus is an acquaintance of ours and Cicero's. He knows so much about Greece and is such a Hellenophile that in Rome his cognomen is "Athenian" the same way ours is "Dark-Haired."
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I will note that we are not going to Greece proper, and Atticus's cognomen is indeed "Athenian", not "Ephesian" or anything else Asia-related. There's a lot of connections between Greece and Asia Minor, but they are very definitely not the same thing. So if we want information on Asia, there isn't anyone better to write than our patron, and that's even leaving aside possible contacts he may offer us here that Atticus would obviously unable to do. And like I said earlier, all that, I think, is important to achieve sooner than later.

Anyhow, my plan.
[X] Plan Asian Connections
-[] The Marians: You wish to know if Cinna or his allies are planning anything before they do it, and to receive updates on their moves and strategies, that you might better plan your own actions in accordance with what they might do.(-10 Talents)
-[] Theo: A young Greek with happy eyes, Theo was a slave, then a gladiator until he lost use of his right arm. Useless as a fighter or a worker, he was tossed aside to die, but instead came to your father's attention due to his particular skill with people. To put it simply, one cannot help but be charmed by him, from the shine of his teeth to the twinkle in his eye. Your father would send him to the markets to buy a cartful of grain, and the Greek would return grinning with ten for the same price. The servants skip to do his word, if only because disappointing him would be like pissing in the eye of the sun itself, and he is capable of winning a smile from even the most dour and grim-faced of men.
-[] Gather Support: Sertorius may be gone, but you are still here. You reassure the men's worries and fears, and promise that if nothing else, you yourself will lead them to glory and wealth in the hills of Asia.
-[] Correspondence: As part of your efforts to stay on top of events in Rome, you write to one of your contacts elsewhere in the Republic. With such long travel times, anything you write will take a long time to arrive. However, that does not mean you cannot write. You write to... (response will arrive in 2-3 turns)
--[] Scaevola
-[] The Consul: You attempt to strike up a conversation with the new-made Consul, Scipio Asiaticus. Famed back in Rome as an orator and a jurist, he may well provide good conversation, though you are under no illusions about making as deep a connection as you did with Sertorius, who loved your father.
-[] Si Vis Pacem: You begin brushing up on your Greek, in ancticipation of subjugating Greek towns and villages in Asia.
-[] Fortune's Favor: After camp is made for the night, several of the officers, including Carcellus, Pompolussa, and Mercator, gather to gamble and game. They have extended you an invitation.

It is the same plan I argued before, only with one difference - I decided to replace Res Publica with Fortune's Favor. Just because we're landing next turn doesn't mean we'll be fighting legions next turn, so we might still have have time to do it, and if not, establishing connections with highest officers in the legion is extremely important for our goal of having as our power base. More so than fighting battles a bit better.
 
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[X] Making Educated Guesses

I agree with Study>Fortune's Favor, especially since I feel it makes sense to wait until after we talked to the Consul. Then, once we made up our mind about him and know more about the situation on the ground in the east, we can start our push to get the officers firmly on our side.

@Telamon Have you though about approval Plan voting? You said you were going to consider it? I would really prefer to vote for a number of plans.
 
Spacegnom said:
I agree with Study>Fortune's Favor, especially since I feel it makes sense to wait until after we talked to the Consul. Then, once we made up our mind about him and know more about the situation on the ground in the east, we can start our push to get the officers firmly on our side.
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Fortune's favor also lets us better understand the leanings of the officers. It's asmuch a part of the situation on the ground as talking with our superiors.
 
Simon_Jester said:
I don't know. Again, they might well be associated with Pompey themselves- in which case there's a fair chance that if Pompey is engaged in conspiracy in Rome, the Catilinarians are aware of it. This is even more likely given that Catulus, the Catilinarians' patron, has a very strong grudge against the Marians and Gratidianus in particular for driving his father to suicide.

OTL, Catiline brutally tortured Gratidianus to death in a ritualized killing during Sulla's proscriptions, and we have reason to think Catulus put him up to it.

These guys are capable of some pretty appalling and extreme things. And they're definitely tied to at least one, maybe more, prominent Romans who have reason to try and disrupt the Marians' hold on power if they can find a way to do so. And by the same token, they represent a potential weak link in other people's conspiracies. Lots of slaves, lots of parties, lots of drunkenness, and so on. It'd probably be a lot easier to find out about a plot to assassinate Cinna, or about Pompey hypothetically getting a brainwave about marching on Rome, from Catiline gossiping abut it at a party, than to find out about it by spying on Pompey directly.
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Regarding Catiline: Holy hell. I was not aware of that.

I imagine that Pompey and everyone else involved in that conspiracy are being extremely closely watched, so if they are involved, then by extension the Catilinarians are being extremely closely watched. Which means the Marians would likely have it under control. If powerful players aren't involved, then the Catilinarians may have motive, but they're lacking the ability to do anything.

You make a interesting argument about Catiline possibly being a weak link in anothers plot though, while that still means the Marians would still likely know of it, it might be useful information for us to personally be aware of.

Simon_Jester said:
The flip side of this is that if we're caught, or if the Marians figure out we intervened against them, they have the power to make us regret it.
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True, but I think that's a reasonable risk. Bringing down the hammer while Atellus is in a leading position of a legion is a risky move. More likely they'd wait to respond until Marius' victory was more sure, giving time for Prosperina to realize something is up.

Also, if the Catilinarians are in a position to overthrow Rome, then spying on them carries the same risks as spying on the Marians, so it's not actually any safer.

Spacegnom said:
@Telamon Have you though about approval Plan voting? You said you were going to consider it? I would really prefer to vote for a number of plans.
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This would be pretty convenient. The only difference between agumentic's plan and my own, for example, is who we're writing to, which isn't a huge deal. While the only difference between Simon_Jester's plan and mine is who we're spying on, arguably more important.

Edit: I've made like 12 edits to clarify things or fix typos. I'm going to sleep, but I'll try to rejoin the conversation tomorrow night.
 
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racnor said:
Fortune's favor also lets us better understand the leanings of the officers. It's asmuch a part of the situation on the ground as talking with our superiors.
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Yeah, but I feel knowing the political leanings of the officiers can wait a turn and even profit from knowing more about the Legate first.
Meanwhile, I expect our arrival in Asia Minor next turn to trigger a vote on which Grand Strategy we would like to pursue. If we want to be prepared for that, then reading up on Marius campaign in North Africa is our best option. Basically, I feel that Study is more urgent than Fortune's Favor. While the former will be less valuable once we are locked into a campaign strategy, the latter should improve as we get to know the abilities and goals of the consul.

Edit: My preference between the two is relatively minor though. That's why I also asked about approval plan voting.
 
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Thyreus said:
I remain of the position that we can always social later, but soon we'll have more pressing concerns than studying.
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I would argue the opposite. Knowing the basic footing and mindset that other officers in the legion are approaching Asiaticus with is going to be very important to how we deal with anything in the coming turns.

Under Sertorius, we didn't need to worry about this. We were in tutorial mode; the legion loved Sertorius, Sertorius commanded them to obey us, so they did. It just... worked. Now things are more complicated, and understanding the personalities involved will be critical to our ability to exercise command.

Soldiers and officers aren't just interchangeable cogs in a military machine, especially not in an era as driven by personalities as Rome.


Meep said:
I imagine that Pompey and everyone else involved in that conspiracy are being extremely closely watched, so if they are involved, then by extension the Catilinarians are being extremely closely watched. Which means the Marians would likely have it under control...
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I mean, they would, except the Marians don't KNOW about Pompey's conspiracy. If they did, Cinna and Marius would have done everything in their power to crush Pompey at all costs, and we'd likely have been tribune of a legion off fighting Pompey. Remember that we outed Pompey's conspiracy not to the Marians, but to the other Sullans- to Scaevola, and to some of his buddies, who quashed it quietly before the Marian authorities could become involved.

That ended the immediate danger of a Pompeian coup attempt, but it didn't change the underlying situation- there are a LOT of young, fiery optimates types, they have wealth and resources, they're more reckless than the older generation, and they're hostile to the Marians.

They may not seem like the biggest thing we have to keep track of. They're not powerful, so it's easy to assume that their instability, unpredictability, and willingness to do extreme things aren't really important. But then, who could have predicted that a random Serbian unification group would be the ones to touch off World War One?

You make a interesting argument about Catiline possibly being a weak link in anothers plot though, while that still means the Marians would still likely know of it, it might be useful information for us to personally be aware of.
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Right. Especially since our interests don't reliably align wit hthe Marians.

True, but I think that's a reasonable risk. Bringing down the hammer while Atellus is in a leading position of a legion is a risky move. More likely they'd wait to respond until Marius' victory was more sure, giving time for Prosperina to realize something is up.

Also, if the Catilinarians are in a position to overthrow Rome, then spying on them carries the same risks as spying on the Marians, so it's not actually any safer.
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Uh... not really? To extend the analogy I gave earlier, think of the Catilinarians as the Black Hand compared to the Marians being, say, the Austro-Hungarian government in 1913.

The Black Hand is much smaller and weaker, and will never realistically be as big a threat to someone personally living in, say, Vienna, compared to his own government. And yet by acting recklessly and striking in a disruptive fashion, the Black Hand can set in motion vast events beyond its power to control.

With the Catilinarians, there isn't this kind of danger of the faction (small as it is) overthrowing Rome. The danger is in how destabilizing they might be. Well, that plus wanting to get information on the activities of others in our age bracket, people who will be active in politics 20-30 years from now and not just today.
 
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