0. Quest Mechanics and Details
0
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                         NOTICES
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Cacophonous Interlude is NOT active
  (the QMPC does NOT hear what you write right now)
Next story update : Sometime in July would be nice
Next vote closing : TBD
Progress toward next update : 3,146 words
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Anything I post that's not in text blocks or in spoilers
may be understood to be said by the QMPC, with the
exception of the Collaboration Post
  (see Collaboration Post for details on itself)
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Players do not need to use code blocks or spoilers
outside of cacophonous interludes

If you use code blocks, please limit yourself to 32 lines
and your lines to 57 characters, so that people on mobile
can read them without scrolling within the code block
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This is not meant to be Plagiarism Quest.

You're not discouraged from using outside reference
material or quoting other sources.  When you do, please
cite your sources in spoilers or a code box.
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 I have added some players who contributed a fair amount
the last two times as thread collaborators who can update
   the collaboration post. If you'd like to update the
collaboration post too, contact me by PM and we'll talk
                        about it.




Check the Collaboration Post and read the latest story post in the Threadmarks to get a rough idea of where things are at.

If you're not already involved in the game, portions of either of these may be difficult to follow. But you can skip to the line that says "B R E A K" in the latest threadmarked story post and skim from there to get an idea of what's going on.

If there's no corresponding Closing The Vote post in the Informational threadmarks for the latest story post in (normal?) Threadmarks, then the game is in a cacophonous interlude and the QMPC will hear what you post, unless you do so with spoilers or code boxes. The NOTICES portion at the top of this post should also tell you if the game is in a cacophonous interlude.

So you can engage with other players, make suggestions, ask questions, and propose plans and you can compose a message to the QMPC all whether or not the game is in a cacophonous interlude. And once it is, you can vote and/or send a message to the QMPC by creating a post in the thread.

If you want to vote, simply do so as you would in other quests on this board. You may look at other players' votes to see how yours should be formatted. And you may check the tally to see that yours are counted as you intend them.

If you want to send a message to the QMPC, though, keep in mind that they are a creature of their time. They may not understand what you mean if you don't take the time to make it clear. This game rewards and demands work from its players. When a player wants to introduce a concept or tool or technology to the QMPC, that player will probably need to expend effort to explain it carefully, and take into consideration the limits of the QMPC's understanding of the world.

I think this is similar enough to Graeber's 'interpretive labor' that we can use the term colloquially to describe what is being asked of players. Put yourself in the mind of the QMPC and ask yourself how such a person can be made to understand what you want to tell them.

The QMPC has different values than we do. They have different assumptions about the world and objects and forces within it. Their goals may not align directly with number-go-up or color-get-big gaming agendas. But they want something, and will listen most attentively to players that tell them how to get more of or closer to what they want.
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                    Collaboration Post!
  1. The Quest Master posts story updates that have 3 parts.
    • Quest Master Player Character responses to player posts made during the last cacophonous interlude
    • An update by the QMPC following a break of varying length but usually some number of years, covering what the character believes is worth mentioning
    • Requests by the QMPC for direction on a number of issues, which the players will provide in the form of votes
  2. Following each story update, players posts are audible to the QMPC until voting is closed.
    This is the cacophonous interlude.
    • Players may convey any information they can represent in text.
    • No images, sounds, or hyperlinks will get through (this is my limitation, not a limitation of the game, so please do not try to transcend it with clever protocol tricks).
    • Players may use spoilers or code blocks to communicate with each other without doing so in ways the QMPC can hear.
  3. When votes are tallied, the QM collects player posts so that it may be known what the QMPC heard.
    • Votes are tallied in the conventional fashion. So only votes in the most recent post by each player are counted. [X] marks what the player is voting. And only identical write-ins accumulate.
    • Some votes are querying the players for their preference, in which case the only suboptimal answer is that which does not accurately reflect the preference of the players who nonetheless chose it (I don't think these kinds of misunderstandings can be helped).
    • Other votes are intended as puzzles where there is a choice the QM believes would best meet what they believe to be the goals of the players.
      • However, in these sorts of votes the QM has in mind a choice that would provide the players with what the QM thinks they most want, but which is not listed in the available votes.
      • In this way, clever write-ins are encouraged.
  4. QM reads player posts, researches their suggestions, checks notes for precedent, determines what the QMPC thinks they already know on the topic, what they're right or wrong about, how likely they are to engage with the topic, how likely the QMPC's followers are to follow-through in the matter, and finally what the result is going to be later on.
  5. QM composes QMPC's responses to player posts made during the cacophonous interlude and updates their notes.
  6. When narrative benefits from uncertainty and chance, QM devises tests for QMPC or other characters and makes those tests using die rolls on a post made just for that purpose.
    • Skill or attribute tests will be made with a largely undocumented homebrew modification of the Burning Wheel system, mangled to suit the format of this game. (The Burning Wheelis a good system and I encourage you to check it out.)
      • Tests may be a contest between two characters or against a static target with tiered results.
      • The rules being used and followed will be described in each post in which tests are made by die rolls.
      • Normal mortals count 7s and better as successes.
      • Heroic characters and characters who are otherwise innately magical count 6s and better as successes.
      • Demigod characters and characters who otherwise possess some spark of divinity count 5s and better as successes.
      • New gods and characters who have otherwise stolen the power of Old Gods count 4s and better as successes.
      • Old Gods count 3s and better as successes.
      • Sorcery and other magic skills lower the threshold of success by 1 to a minimum of 3 only when they are the skill being tested, not when they provide a bonus to other skills. Players may note that Old Gods' threshold of success does not improve when they use magic.
      • Bonus dice provided by Kahl's Warhorses and any incendiary devices more complicated than a burning arrow reroll 9s & 10s and keeps successes. These same bonus dice cancels successes on 1s & 2s, rerolls those, and additional 1s & 2s cancel additional successes. More 1s, 2, 9, or 10s mean more rerolling and more successes or cancelations, but only in the manner of the original die. That is, a 1 or 2 that comes up when a 9 on a bonus die is rerolled don't cancel successes or lead to further rerolling.
    • Research project results are determined by percentile dice with results falling into 5 tiers.
      • Uh oh: something has gone horribly wrong
      • Nuh uh: failure, but the boring kind
      • Huh: partial success
      • Uh huh: full success
      • Whoa: superior special case success
    • When players expect a test to be coming up -- for example if they vote for an invasion or to send a diplomat to manipulate a foreign leader -- they can improve the odds of the test turning out the way they want by providing the QMPC with advice specific to that matter. If the advice is not mistaken or outright bad, there will be at least a chance it will help. That is, decent advice adds dice.
  7. QM composes the QMPC's post-break update, player vote questions, and player vote options.
  8. GOTO 1
The QMPC is intended to be the only character the players will interact with in this game. (It's kind of possible that the players could maneuver the QMPC to surrender control of the Astute Cacophony to another character, but unlikely.)

The QMPC is a small, evil woman who knows magic and has not died, despite looking like she probably should have at some point. She goes by the name Bianca the Undying. Her early life took place in the Paleolithic, in which she has said that she traveled around quite a bit and came to understand the malleable nature of populations of people and animals and even the land itself. At some point she was trapped underground, to her displeasure. She remained trapped for a very long time.

When Bianca got out, she found her way to a community of eight tribes living pastoral and agrarian lifestyles in the local Copper Age. She made these people hers and they relied on her for magically enriching their fields so that they did not need to slash, burn, and move around a bit, unlike their neighbors. Bianca and her followers formalized their relationships into the Eight Ways Pact. Later, another tribe joined Bianca's followers bringing small horses and the Bronze Age and their pact was updated with a ninth directive.

Bianca has an agenda that requires her to have more power than she does right now. She believes that achieving divinity will get her that power.
 
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Perhaps I am indeed confused o ancient one, after all, I am but a voice which bears no name!
But indeed it is more wholesome for a name to be attached to a voice, for that purpose you may call me Sheep, or the voice that is confused if you so like o undying one.


It bodes well that your command of the spirits and the elements is so great, but it is strange that time has so escaped your grasp.

Does not the unceasing river have pretenders and petty lords upon it currents? Have none tried to swim in it? Are there none amongst the divines and the spirits who hold a claim to echos of its might?

But I digress, allow me to inquire as to the old gods.
They where made of the primordial stuff of creation, of the void that is all and naught?
Where they born with time or in time? Or do they preceed it? What manner of being is a divine? Is it shackled to passion or mantle in absolutes, or is it but a mortal mind given godhood?

And what of the world ? All things are matter and all things have distinct properties, but do they have a substance? That is, a soul or spirit of sort or a quality that is not of the material realm?


And lastly, amongst the spirits and the elements, I presume that there are hierarchies of station, power and significance. That there exists spirits so meek and meagre that any with a pretense to skill can sway them, and that there exists spirits of such might and pride that lay at the cusp of divinity.

If such is the case, then surely the spirits and the elements must have their own fueds and rivalries.
Whould a spirit of flame not relish at the thought of unleashing its hunger upon a forest? Would a lord of the winds not cackle with glee at the mayhem his gusts would dance to? Would the Kings of the earth that sleeps and the courts of regrowth and decay not delight at woodland turned ash and cinder, from which a new forest would spring all the mightier?
Would a master of the rains and hail not delight at the havoc his involvement will bring in such chaos?

I say if that be the case, then let the tribes gather in full, let then witness your might as you cajole, command or bargain with the forces of nature to do your bidding.

And then let the tribes be let loose upon what remains of the forest people. Let that be a tale worthy of song, a monument to your might unrivalled.


If that be not the case, then I say let them gather in full and accompany them in their war.
Let the blood shed and stalled build new and greater oaths, let obligations of honour flourish across the nine, and let them see what bloodsoaked glory and bounty they can reap when striking as a tide with purpose.



[X] [Cacophony] maximillian
[X] Write in: Elemental destruction.
 
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I'll likely get into the innovations, social, artistic and material, more useful to a tribal society later on. And perhaps into metaphysics if the occult follows similar principles.
Things like poetic structure, drum meters, cadence, honour and prestige structures, pre urban tactics and organisation, selective breeding/planting, husbandry and agriculture methodology and techniques, tanning and curing methods, bone and wood works... Etc
 
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There are cities in her world, she is so outclassed that it's not funny. She needs to reform, not more honour and poets.
 
The absolute dominance of the city is a very recent phenomenon historically speaking.

Much of the history of cities and the empires they begat, is a history of attempting to fend off the tide of "barbarian" tribes.

Unless the cities and urban polities of this world are similar to our own of the early modern period, then they are as Bianca says, mere concentrations of plunder.

A sufficiently sophisticated/large or determined tribal host is a force of apocalyptic proportions. Indeed settled civilisation wrote of them as such, for they caused the death of the city.
 
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The absolute dominance of the city is a very recent phenomenon historically speaking.

Much of the history of cities and the empires they begat, is a history of attempting to fend off the tide of "barbarian" tribes.

Unless the cities and urban polities of this world are similar to our own in the early modern period, then they are as Bianca says, mere concentrations of plunder.

A sufficiently sophisticated/large or determined tribal host is a force of apocalyptic proportions. Indeed settled civilisation wrote of them as such, for they caused the death of the city.

Then Voices shall strongly IC disagree. This is not my goal.
 
Worry not compatriots, I shall endeavor to persuade Bianca of the written words value and allay her concerns. Please focus upon the actual teaching, or more specifically, upon the process by which she may invent her own writing system, to take into account the nature of the local language.

Watch this space.
I'm already gonna be taking care of that. I called dibs comma dammit.
 
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Bianca "rules" herd of wild cats, illusion not "power". Anyway... WHAT WE SHOULD DO WITH THIS IDIOTIC WAR?
 
My singers make songs of the words of my will, so that my words are more easily recalled.

This was an interesting point. Songs, rhymes, and meters all work as linguistic checksums to prevent degradation of the message.
E.g., the main reason plays like Shakespeare's used iambic pentameter was to help the actors memorize their lines.

[X] [Cacophony] maximillian
[X] Write in: Elemental destruction.
 
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You are very polite Bianca, thank you for that. Manners maketh man, or woman in this case.
Now firstly I'd like to ask, for the sake of thoroughness, what your current agricultural methods are, to clarify in case you do not know that word, I mean how your people cultivate plants and raise livestock, as well as what metals you are aware of, what you know of alloys, that is mixing metals to produce stronger metals or ones with different properties, as well as common building materials for houses, common weaponry and armour and other such details. This should help us help you by informing us what we need to inform you of and what you already know and thus we do not need to inform you of, as well as any corrections to incorrect information or presumptions you currently hold. Best to get a good idea of current resources in detail before we make any erroneous assumptions.

In addition the an and ca in your name would be spelt a-n, as an is a a sound followed by an n sound, and c-a, as ca is a c sound followed by an a sound, however some alphabets have additional symbols for such sounds, the one presented to you should not be assumed to be the best one, merely a well known and spread one.
However it may not be wise, if you choose to construct an alphabet, to have a symbol for every sound as, while it seems logical, such an alphabet would get very complicated very quickly, as such it would be best to use mixed symbols as demonstrated above.
Unless you want the language to be overly complicated to prevent easy access by the average citizen?
Oh and you may call me Rom, good luck.
 
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This was an interesting point. Songs, rhymes, and meters all work as linguistic checksums to prevent degradation of the message.
E.g., the main reason plays like Shakespeare's used iambic pentameter was to help the actors memorize their lines.

[X] [Cacophony] maximillian
[X] Write in: Elemental destruction.


indeed! The developments of poetry are fascinating, more so its implications!
The Arabs developed their 16 peotic meters to match exactly the major traditions of instrumental play at the time. Resulting in each meter following a distinct melody, theme, choice of words and intent.
For example, war meters, cautionary meters, adventure meters, love meters, lament...etc.
The interplay between the two creating a fascinatingly complex web of meaning and symbolism to every tune, instrument and word.

And of course, made it damn easy to memorise entire books, gave a means to identify and preserve tribal kinship across great time and distances and created a whole avenue of honour and glory competitions and of peacekeeping and warmaking
 
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Hail, Bianca of the Nine Nations, Undying!

You may refer to me as The Burning One.

I shall speak of language, writing, and graven records.

Your chief objection to the notion of graven records is that it may be used to question you, due to apparent inconsistency between current and previous pronouncements. The people are as children, lacking understanding. They seek to make sense of the world. When a father allows his child to frolic in a certain area sees a wolf and thereafter forbids the child from venturing into the area for a certain time, is the child not curious, seeking to make sense of the world? If the father explains to the child the sighting of the wolf, does not the child understand better the world?

So long as your decisions and their alterations do not stem from caprice or whim, writing is a potent means of conveying wisdom and knowledge.

Similarly, if your previous pronouncements are questioned due to inconsistency, do the people truly discern inconsistency, or merely your judgments which have changed due to changing circumstances? Consider that for every question raised regarding your edicts and judgments, many others ask the same question silently in their hearts. Thus the seeds of doubt are sown.

Rather explain in this graven record the reasoning behind your decisions, and the change in circumstances which has prompted such. The people may recall that you have altered your edicts, but here too the shortness of memory arises: they may not recall clearly the circumstances which led to the initial judgment. This recorded reasoning can quell their doubts and questions. If the people can consult records of your reasoning, they need not bother you with questions. Thus can you convey your wisdom to your people. Additionally, if they may understand your previous judgments, they can come to trust your current judgments. Why do your people trust the wisdom of their elders? Because they have earned that trust through previous actions and deeds. You who are older than all have a far greater history of deeds and judgments to support your wisdom. But the shortness of human memory does not allow your people to truly appreciate the scope of your experience. Maintaining records in this way allows them to do so.

The stone laws of which you speak will also allow your people to settle disputes among themselves or guide a headman in making a decision; they may consult not only the currently living wise men and elders, but also those of generations before. You moderate the disputes of your people, but you certainly do not moderate all disputes, as most fall beneath your notice, surely. As your people grow more prosperous and more populous, the number of disputes brought before you will be of weightier things, leaving unanswered disputes which you previously had time to render judgment on. The stone laws allow you to render wisdom to the people as methods to resolve their disputes in the manner you yourself would render judgment. It is a means of making your will known even when you or your singers are absent. Nor are the stone laws eternal; merely being engraved does not mean that they cannot be overturned and replaced should you see fit.

You are by your own admission not infallible. You admit that you may be deceived. You have instantly and correctly seen the utility of graven numbers. These can indeed be used to record harvests and herds and tribute. Suppose then that one of your subjects has cheated you of your just tribute. He tells you that he has presented the whole of what is owed, but he has in secret removed one part in ten from it. Your representative may be deceived; the cheat may convince him that he has misremembered the amount owed. With written records of herds, harvests, and tribute, your representative may discern the deception. Another example: Merchants quarrel over the agreed-upon price for their wares. They are not well-known to each other, and so record the numbers they have agreed on. They further inscribe the nature of the items and their promise of exchange, and each mark with a personal sign. This creates a record of their agreed transaction, so that one cannot later contest the matter without contradicting the written record.

Do not see written records of your edicts as a cage to bind you and enable others to demonstrate apparent contradictions. See it instead as a teaching opportunity, to enable your people to learn and grow, to share your wisdom with them, so long as your decisions make sense and are not capricious. For one of your subjects, it may be like a cage, but do not forget your position of power; the questions asked of you might topple a lesser ruler, but to you, they are ultimately an annoyance. Further, consider that even if matters are written, very few among the population will be able to dedicate the time to learn to read and write them.

You ask us for advice. We perceive the benefits of writing far outweigh its negatives. Such is our advice.

I would also briefly clarify the notion of the alphabet previously discussed. The sounds associated with this alphabet are names assigned to particular characters. These characters are but one of many systems usable to record words and deeds, and is merely one known to us that can be used for our current mode of speech. Truly, constructing your own system of writing would be more advantageous, rather than attempting to convey one to you. Select a number of easily-distinguished signs which may be easily engraved. Assign to each a sound. In some cases, similar sounds may be associated with the same character, allowing context to determine which is correct.

[X] [Cacophony] Valarauko

What do you think? Too much?
 
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Certainly not too much, use this IC. What, by the way, do you think about my attempt?
 
I meant more in terms of convincing her. Not sure it properly addresses her concerns. Also, by your attempt, what do you mean?
 
My attempt at adressing her concerns in regard to writing. Stuff about power and fear, maybe too much.
 
[X] [Cacophony] Ciber
[X] All the Nine Nations should go to war against the Forest People and Bianca should join them.
[X] Bianca should take up writing because it is a tool for improving the ability to think.

All of you miss entirely the point of writing. Or at least the reason that Bianca should learn and promote it's spread. Yes it can be use to spread knowledge to the far corners of​
the earth and the annals of time, but that is not the reason we need Bianca and her people to learn the ways of the written word.

She must learn this skill because the process of transforming ideas into symbols is the first step on the path of strengthening the mind. Through the detailed observation of​
numerous peoples over many years, perhaps more than currently populate the Nine Tribes, we have discovered some measure of the workings of the mind. I tell you now that the mind of mortals arise from the complex interactions of the smallest components that make up the brain. Now the whole of the brain participates in some aspect thought or bodily control, with the more primitive and vital functions such as the beating of the heart or ability to recognize faces being near the stem of the brain. But we (or at least I) say that the mind is housed within the outermost layer of the brain, concentrated near the forehead. This is the portion most associated with active thinking, self control, and the ability to understand others intentions.

I have left something out. My explanation is lacking the most obvious, most important aspect of the human mind. Storytelling. Pay attention to the mortals and I'm sure​
you've seen, the live their lives within a story of their own making. Constantly they are creating stories "why does my toe hurt, oh I must have kicked that rock", "Why am I looking at that bush, did I see something move?", "Why am I angry at that man? He looked at me wrong". You see, the rest of the brain is always taking actions without informing the mind, and the mind is always making up stories about why it did things that were never under its control in the first place. Look, you will find people constantly taking actions and then coming up with explanations for why they did it only after the fact.

This must happen, this process where much of the work of noticing threats, controlling muscles, and regulating the body must take place without the minds supervision​
because the mind is limited. The mind is specialized in solving problems and making plans and determining when to override the rest of the brain. Consider swimming, the mind must constantly overrule the brains desire to breath. Or consider confronting a predator, the mind has created a plan to defeat the beast, but must override the brains desire to fight or flee in order to lure it into a trap.

Part of the process which makes the mind so good at problem solving the division of ideas into discrete pieces before comparing, combining, or splitting them. We call this​
process "Chunking". Through our work we have determined that most people may deal with between five and seven chunks at a time. Those who have put great effort into thinking about and investigating the nature of the world have at times managed ten. One simple exercise for understanding chunking is to visualize the movement of a point, then another, moving differently. As you add points, you will eventually notice that, beyond your control, some points start moving as though connected. This is chunking in action. Your mind consolidates two small ideas of movement into one slightly more complex method of movement.

Becoming a better thinker is not about increasing your available "Chunks" as much as using what you have to more effect. Through practice you can compress several related​
ideas into a single chunk. And finally we return to writing. Each symbol may stand for a sound, and many symbols together may be a word, and idea. And many words together form a sentence. Many sentences a paragraph. Many paragraphs a page. And so on and so forth. The process of reading and writing is the process of combining and splitting chunks, and it is excellent practice. And eventually your mind "solves" writing and passes the solution onto your brain, and it gets to the point where you can read and understand faster that were someone to speak the word to you.

The greatest way to get better at solving problems, is to try and solve some problems.​
 
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I normally wouldn't doublepost, but spoilers make it hard to perceive edits and I feel this is really worth saying: We should consider asking after some of the finer detail of how Bianca intends to achieve apotheosis. It is likely that she simply intends to strengthen her holdings so as to have more resources to work with, but truly strengthening a country requires great personal investment, arguably tying oneself to the place, and it seems likely that with her great age and considerable time in a tomb she could be getting into a bit of a rut.

Wait.

Wait some more.

Exercise patience. Solve problem. Continue.

Or it could be that she continues studies in spare time, and in some way harvests some degree of power from the passing of the witches and so on, but still. The point is, it seems important to try and get a better idea of what exactly she getting out of the tribes.
 
Ciber, I'm pretty sure that your explanation is kind of too advanced and even mine "truly powerful ruler can change laws" is better suited for her mentality... brain functions, well......
Adhoc vote count started by liberty90 on Mar 7, 2019 at 11:29 AM, finished with 27 posts and 8 votes.

  • [X] Write in: Elemental destruction.
    [X] [Cacophony] liberty90
    [X] All the Nine Nations should go to war against the Forest People and Bianca should join them.
    [X] Bianca should take up writing because it is a tool for improving the ability to think.
    [X] The Nine Nations are not required to join in the war against the Forest People and Bianca should not join any war that occurs, so that engagements are limited and losses minimal
    [X] [Cacophony] maximillian
    [X] [Cacophony] Random Member
    [X] [Cacophony] Valarauko
    [X] [Cacophony] Ciber
 
Ciber, I'm pretty sure that your explanation is kind of too advanced and even mine "truly powerful ruler can change laws" is better suited for her mentality... brain functions, well......
I have explained to her why writing is a tool to make herself more intelligent. As she is already more intelligent then you, I would not expect you to understand.
 
As she is already more intelligent then you, I would not expect you to understand.

I use non-native language and thus can sound much dumber than I'm, but probably she is indeed more intelligent than me, QM certainly is. Still, "I would not expect you to understand", slightly strong words, I try to keep open and rational mindset, even if my - for example - math ability is pretty s****y. Remember, though, that she knows literally nothing about human body and there is, for now, no evidence that could support your claims in her eyes. Our mindset is scientific, her whole culture and mindset pre-scientific. I can sound very arrogant at times, when I'm pretty sure that I'm right, sorry for that.
Adhoc vote count started by liberty90 on Mar 7, 2019 at 9:55 AM, finished with 26 posts and 8 votes.

  • [X] The Nine Nations are not required to join in the war against the Forest People and Bianca should not join any war that occurs, so that engagements are limited and losses minimal
    [X] [Cacophony] liberty90
    [X] Write in: Elemental destruction.
    [X] All the Nine Nations should go to war against the Forest People and Bianca should join them.
    [X] Bianca should take up writing because it is a tool for improving the ability to think.
    [X] [Cacophony] maximillian
    [X] [Cacophony] Random Member
    [X] [Cacophony] Valarauko
    [X] [Cacophony] Ciber

Adhoc vote count started by liberty90 on Mar 7, 2019 at 10:13 AM, finished with 26 posts and 8 votes.

  • [X] Write in: Elemental destruction.
    [X] [Cacophony] liberty90
    [X] All the Nine Nations should go to war against the Forest People and Bianca should join them.
    [X] Bianca should take up writing because it is a tool for improving the ability to think.
    [X] The Nine Nations are not required to join in the war against the Forest People and Bianca should not join any war that occurs, so that engagements are limited and losses minimal
    [X] [Cacophony] maximillian
    [X] [Cacophony] Random Member
    [X] [Cacophony] Valarauko
    [X] [Cacophony] Ciber
 
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I do not need to provide proof. We are an authoratitive source. If we are forced to justify every statement we make, the our time table will go from centuries to millennia. We are the wise oldyoung ones. If the listener does not, then we would sooner choose anew than make waste of ourmy time
 
3.a. Closing the Vote for Wrath of Sleomjash
3a
Code:
At this time there are only two 'tasks' on
which there maybe voting in any given
episode: boosting of voices within the
cacophony and that episode's vote. If you
want to use write in votes to exhort
action from Bianca outside of the question
she puts to a vote, you cannot also vote
for one of the options she offers. Each
of you get only one vote per task.
 
In this case, I'm counting those two
double-votes for the offered response to
the episode's vote.
 
Very clever, though. I do like it when
people explore and invent new ways to
achieve their goals.
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Who spoke
3 boosts: liberty90
2 boosts: maximillian
1 boost: Random Member
1 boost: Ciber
1 boost: Valarauko
0 boosts: Azerick01
Few posts: no cutoff
Your Divine Majesty, would you prefer to be called "Great Undying One", as your people say? According to my customs "Your Divine Majesty", when used, shows much more respect, but I shall obey your wish.

First of all, I apologize Your Divine Majesty. It's sometimes difficult for me to pronounce some sounds properly. Obviously, proper alphabet should include symbols for all short sounds that are common in your language, so that all words can be expressed properly. But you can understand this easily enough, concerns about proper power over people are more important.

Your Divine Majesty, powerful ruler can change laws as he or she wishes, even when people know that laws were changed. Even mortal kings of the faraway cities can do that! People should respect when something much more powerful and greater than them decides to change laws, this means that there are very good and wise reasons for that. When there are changes in the world, laws need to change. Merely being engraved does not mean that rules cannot be replaced should you see fit.

You shouldn't claim that laws and customs are eternal. You should claim the power to change laws and make people respect said power because there is much more power and wisdom in you than in mortal people. Because there are good reasons.

Evidently, you need to explain this to your people, if this is not obvious. They should fear you enough to respect you regardless, and be grateful enough for your protection to respect your decisions and changes. Fear and respect, fear and love both.

Make them fear you and love you properly, with both punishments of offenders and safety for good servants of your will.

Power of many mortal kings over their cities, where writing exist, is great.

Your people, on the other hand, can start a war without your orders. Sounds like a herd of wild cats, not properly obedient mortal servants.

Cities are sources of great wealth and great numbers of mortals that could serve you, and you wouldn't be able to have proper cities and power without writing, not in the long term. You simply couldn't have 30 000 people in a city, supplied with grain from many villages, without writing about wheat production, trade, written and sometimes changed laws, etc. Nor you will be able to fight against such opponents in the future without adopting their methods and improving on these methods.

But I can, Your Divine Majesty, teach you also other things, if you are so skeptical about writing for now. I can teach you how to grow more food for your people, and more food means more warriors, more power.

A secret of the black soil, also known as the "terra preta". You can create fertile, good for growing plants soil by adding a mixture of charcoal, bones, broken pottery, compost, and manure to the otherwise relatively infertile soil. To create compost, you need a heap of wet organic matter (also called green waste), such as leaves, grass, and food scraps, and wait for the materials to break down after a period of months. You need to overturn compost pile from time to time. After a year or so there shouldn't be any too dangerous to health things in the waste, things are broken to simpler stuff good for plants. Human waste must not be used directly to help plants but is safe to use after sufficient composting. Charcoal is very important.


I can share with you also another secret. A secret of sterilization. If you want more people to survive minor wounds, then rags or other things used to stop bleeding, protect a wound or for sewing wound should be first boiled in water, preferably for a long while. Then these things should be used when no longer too hot. This may sound weird, but should truly work so that not all but more wounded survive. Useful, given that there may be that stupid war now. There are animals smaller than worms, so small that people cannot see these animals - germs. Germs are bad for wounds, and very hot water kills most of the germs.

There is also a simpler secret of hygiene: when possible, people should wash their hands in clean water before touching wounds and eating, also because of dangers that come from the germs. Maybe a comparison of germs to worms so small that you cannot see them would be better than comparison to animals, though both comparisons are not fully true. Even cold water can wash away some of these creatures.

You fear changes, Your Divine Majesty, but without changes, cities will destroy your people, even if many generations from now. The world will change with you or without you, you need to tame this "Change" beast instead. With proper changes, you could rule over these great settlements yourself.

In regards to greed, this emotion also will be needed to compete with cities and to create wealthy cities. Because cities will slowly start to dominate the next hundreds of years. Cities mean enormous numbers of people, power and wealth. Some people will be jealous, but inequality of wealth between mortals is another thing that you will find as impossible to avoid if you desire true power.

You need to learn more about distant cities, Your Divine Majesty. These cities are distant only now, in the future there will be more cities. The faster we start working on this great issue, the better, because this is the great danger of the next few hundreds of years.

In regards to the recent war, I consider this war as rather idiotic, but we probably should stand together with our people, so that you could show that you care about your mortal servants.

Your Divine Majesty, thank you for considering my words.


[X] [Cacophony] liberty90

[X] All the Nine Nations should go to war against the Forest People and Bianca should join them.

[X] Bianca should take up writing because it is a tool for improving the ability to think.
Perhaps I am indeed confused o ancient one, after all, I am but a voice which bears no name!
But indeed it is more wholesome for a name to be attached to a voice, for that purpose you may call me Sheep, or the voice that is confused if you so like o undying one.


It bodes well that your command of the spirits and the elements is so great, but it is strange that time has so escaped your grasp.

Does not the unceasing river have pretenders and petty lords upon it currents? Have none tried to swim in it? Are there none amongst the divines and the spirits who hold a claim to echos of its might?

But I digress, allow me to inquire as to the old gods.
They where made of the primordial stuff of creation, of the void that is all and naught?
Where they born with time or in time? Or do they preceed it? What manner of being is a divine? Is it shackled to passion or mantle in absolutes, or is it but a mortal mind given godhood?

And what of the world ? All things are matter and all things have distinct properties, but do they have a substance? That is, a soul or spirit of sort or a quality that is not of the material realm?


And lastly, amongst the spirits and the elements, I presume that there are hierarchies of station, power and significance. That there exists spirits so meek and meagre that any with a pretense to skill can sway them, and that there exists spirits of such might and pride that lay at the cusp of divinity.

If such is the case, then surely the spirits and the elements must have their own fueds and rivalries.
Whould a spirit of flame not relish at the thought of unleashing its hunger upon a forest? Would a lord of the winds not cackle with glee at the mayhem his gusts would dance to? Would the Kings of the earth that sleeps and the courts of regrowth and decay not delight at woodland turned ash and cinder, from which a new forest would spring all the mightier?
Would a master of the rains and hail not delight at the havoc his involvement will bring in such chaos?

I say if that be the case, then let the tribes gather in full, let then witness your might as you cajole, command or bargain with the forces of nature to do your bidding.

And then let the tribes be let loose upon what remains of the forest people. Let that be a tale worthy of song, a monument to your might unrivalled.


If that be not the case, then I say let them gather in full and accompany them in their war.
Let the blood shed and stalled build new and greater oaths, let obligations of honour flourish across the nine, and let them see what bloodsoaked glory and bounty they can reap when striking as a tide with purpose.



[X] [Cacophony] maximillian
[X] Write in: Elemental destruction.
What might the Nine Nations gain from this war, should they somehow win? I'm seeing alot of risk and loss in such a war, but not much in the way of gains. The Forest People's territory? I think they are difficult to drive out of their lands, very difficult indeed. The costs of such an attempt would be immense if you want a chance of winning, and even then it's only a chance. It might be a victory you would dearly regret.

Your own assistance is not required for mere raids. The spoils of a few raids would not make up for the time you'd lose on other projects. "Time is wealth", as the saying goes.

That aside, how much do you actually know about the Forest People? Who leads them? What are their beliefs, their customs? Do any of your people speak their language?

[X] The Nine Nations are not required to join in the war against the Forest People and Bianca should not join any war that occurs, so that engagements are limited and losses minimal
[X] [Cacophony] Random Member
[X] [Cacophony] Ciber
[X] All the Nine Nations should go to war against the Forest People and Bianca should join them.

[X] Bianca should take up writing because it is a tool for improving the ability to think.

All of you miss entirely the point of writing. Or at least the reason that Bianca should learn and promote it's spread. Yes it can be use to spread knowledge to the far corners of
the earth and the annals of time, but that is not the reason we need Bianca and her people to learn the ways of the written word.

She must learn this skill because the process of transforming ideas into symbols is the first step on the path of strengthening the mind. Through the detailed observation of
numerous peoples over many years, perhaps more than currently populate the Nine Tribes, we have discovered some measure of the workings of the mind. I tell you now that the mind of mortals arise from the complex interactions of the smallest components that make up the brain. Now the whole of the brain participates in some aspect thought or bodily control, with the more primitive and vital functions such as the beating of the heart or ability to recognize faces being near the stem of the brain. But we (or at least I) say that the mind is housed within the outermost layer of the brain, concentrated near the forehead. This is the portion most associated with active thinking, self control, and the ability to understand others intentions.

I have left something out. My explanation is lacking the most obvious, most important aspect of the human mind. Storytelling. Pay attention to the mortals and I'm sure
you've seen, the live their lives within a story of their own making. Constantly they are creating stories "why does my toe hurt, oh I must have kicked that rock", "Why am I looking at that bush, did I see something move?", "Why am I angry at that man? He looked at me wrong". You see, the rest of the brain is always taking actions without informing the mind, and the mind is always making up stories about why it did things that were never under its control in the first place. Look, you will find people constantly taking actions and then coming up with explanations for why they did it only after the fact.

This must happen, this process where much of the work of noticing threats, controlling muscles, and regulating the body must take place without the minds supervision
because the mind is limited. The mind is specialized in solving problems and making plans and determining when to override the rest of the brain. Consider swimming, the mind must constantly overrule the brains desire to breath. Or consider confronting a predator, the mind has created a plan to defeat the beast, but must override the brains desire to fight or flee in order to lure it into a trap.

Part of the process which makes the mind so good at problem solving the division of ideas into discrete pieces before comparing, combining, or splitting them. We call this
process "Chunking". Through our work we have determined that most people may deal with between five and seven chunks at a time. Those who have put great effort into thinking about and investigating the nature of the world have at times managed ten. One simple exercise for understanding chunking is to visualize the movement of a point, then another, moving differently. As you add points, you will eventually notice that, beyond your control, some points start moving as though connected. This is chunking in action. Your mind consolidates two small ideas of movement into one slightly more complex method of movement.

Becoming a better thinker is not about increasing your available "Chunks" as much as using what you have to more effect. Through practice you can compress several related
ideas into a single chunk. And finally we return to writing. Each symbol may stand for a sound, and many symbols together may be a word, and idea. And many words together form a sentence. Many sentences a paragraph. Many paragraphs a page. And so on and so forth. The process of reading and writing is the process of combining and splitting chunks, and it is excellent practice. And eventually your mind "solves" writing and passes the solution onto your brain, and it gets to the point where you can read and understand faster that were someone to speak the word to you.

The greatest way to get better at solving problems, is to try and solve some problems.
Hail, Bianca of the Nine Nations, Undying!

You may refer to me as The Burning One.

I shall speak of language, writing, and graven records.

Your chief objection to the notion of graven records is that it may be used to question you, due to apparent inconsistency between current and previous pronouncements. The people are as children, lacking understanding. They seek to make sense of the world. When a father allows his child to frolic in a certain area sees a wolf and thereafter forbids the child from venturing into the area for a certain time, is the child not curious, seeking to make sense of the world? If the father explains to the child the sighting of the wolf, does not the child understand better the world?

So long as your decisions and their alterations do not stem from caprice or whim, writing is a potent means of conveying wisdom and knowledge.

Similarly, if your previous pronouncements are questioned due to inconsistency, do the people truly discern inconsistency, or merely your judgments which have changed due to changing circumstances? Consider that for every question raised regarding your edicts and judgments, many others ask the same question silently in their hearts. Thus the seeds of doubt are sown.

Rather explain in this graven record the reasoning behind your decisions, and the change in circumstances which has prompted such. The people may recall that you have altered your edicts, but here too the shortness of memory arises: they may not recall clearly the circumstances which led to the initial judgment. This recorded reasoning can quell their doubts and questions. If the people can consult records of your reasoning, they need not bother you with questions. Thus can you convey your wisdom to your people. Additionally, if they may understand your previous judgments, they can come to trust your current judgments. Why do your people trust the wisdom of their elders? Because they have earned that trust through previous actions and deeds. You who are older than all have a far greater history of deeds and judgments to support your wisdom. But the shortness of human memory does not allow your people to truly appreciate the scope of your experience. Maintaining records in this way allows them to do so.

The stone laws of which you speak will also allow your people to settle disputes among themselves or guide a headman in making a decision; they may consult not only the currently living wise men and elders, but also those of generations before. You moderate the disputes of your people, but you certainly do not moderate all disputes, as most fall beneath your notice, surely. As your people grow more prosperous and more populous, the number of disputes brought before you will be of weightier things, leaving unanswered disputes which you previously had time to render judgment on. The stone laws allow you to render wisdom to the people as methods to resolve their disputes in the manner you yourself would render judgment. It is a means of making your will known even when you or your singers are absent. Nor are the stone laws eternal; merely being engraved does not mean that they cannot be overturned and replaced should you see fit.

You are by your own admission not infallible. You admit that you may be deceived. You have instantly and correctly seen the utility of graven numbers. These can indeed be used to record harvests and herds and tribute. Suppose then that one of your subjects has cheated you of your just tribute. He tells you that he has presented the whole of what is owed, but he has in secret removed one part in ten from it. Your representative may be deceived; the cheat may convince him that he has misremembered the amount owed. With written records of herds, harvests, and tribute, your representative may discern the deception. Another example: Merchants quarrel over the agreed-upon price for their wares. They are not well-known to each other, and so record the numbers they have agreed on. They further inscribe the nature of the items and their promise of exchange, and each mark with a personal sign. This creates a record of their agreed transaction, so that one cannot later contest the matter without contradicting the written record.

Do not see written records of your edicts as a cage to bind you and enable others to demonstrate apparent contradictions. See it instead as a teaching opportunity, to enable your people to learn and grow, to share your wisdom with them, so long as your decisions make sense and are not capricious. For one of your subjects, it may be like a cage, but do not forget your position of power; the questions asked of you might topple a lesser ruler, but to you, they are ultimately an annoyance. Further, consider that even if matters are written, very few among the population will be able to dedicate the time to learn to read and write them.

You ask us for advice. We perceive the benefits of writing far outweigh its negatives. Such is our advice.

I would also briefly clarify the notion of the alphabet previously discussed. The sounds associated with this alphabet are names assigned to particular characters. These characters are but one of many systems usable to record words and deeds, and is merely one known to us that can be used for our current mode of speech. Truly, constructing your own system of writing would be more advantageous, rather than attempting to convey one to you. Select a number of easily-distinguished signs which may be easily engraved. Assign to each a sound. In some cases, similar sounds may be associated with the same character, allowing context to determine which is correct.

[X] [Cacophony] Valarauko

What do you think? Too much?
You are very polite Bianca, thank you for that. Manners maketh man, or woman in this case.
Now firstly I'd like to ask, for the sake of thoroughness, what your current agricultural methods are, to clarify in case you do not know that word, I mean how your people cultivate plants and raise livestock, as well as what metals you are aware of, what you know of alloys, that is mixing metals to produce stronger metals or ones with different properties, as well as common building materials for houses, common weaponry and armour and other such details. This should help us help you by informing us what we need to inform you of and what you already know and thus we do not need to inform you of, as well as any corrections to incorrect information or presumptions you currently hold. Best to get a good idea of current resources in detail before we make any erroneous assumptions.

In addition the an and ca in your name would be spelt a-n, as an is a a sound followed by an n sound, and c-a, as ca is a c sound followed by an a sound, however some alphabets have additional symbols for such sounds, the one presented to you should not be assumed to be the best one, merely a well known and spread one.
However it may not be wise, if you choose to construct an alphabet, to have a symbol for every sound as, while it seems logical, such an alphabet would get very complicated very quickly, as such it would be best to use mixed symbols as demonstrated above.
Unless you want the language to be overly complicated to prevent easy access by the average citizen?
Oh and you may call me Rom, good luck.
Adhoc vote count started by LoserThree on Mar 7, 2019 at 1:01 PM, finished with 27 posts and 8 votes.

  • [X] Write in: Elemental destruction.
    [X] [Cacophony] liberty90
    [X] All the Nine Nations should go to war against the Forest People and Bianca should join them.
    [X] Bianca should take up writing because it is a tool for improving the ability to think.
    [X] The Nine Nations are not required to join in the war against the Forest People and Bianca should not join any war that occurs, so that engagements are limited and losses minimal
    [X] [Cacophony] maximillian
    [X] [Cacophony] Random Member
    [X] [Cacophony] Valarauko
    [X] [Cacophony] Ciber
 
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