On the Road to Elspar [Book 1] (Dryad Mercenary Schoolgirl Quest)

Kei said:

I suspect it's too late to arrest the forward momentum here, but I would certainly like to ask what you consider superior alternatives to your concerns.

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One thing that can mitigate some of the negatives here - certainly the pressure against vote-splitting, which we're already seeing - is allowing people to vote for multiple plans at once.

If people can both vote for a plan and for a less popular or newer variant of that plan, you get less tactical voting, and less chance of the two least popular plans accidentally becoming the lead two and no one willing to switch their vote away from second-worst lest the worst win.

[X] Plan The Littlest Leader
-[X] Strategy and Logistics
-[X] Tactics and Command
-[X] Buster Swordx2
-[X] Advanced Unarmed Combat
-[X] Social Time

I don't necessarily like the unarmed combat but I understand its worth. Kinda think getting started learning to use a close range or support weapon would be good though, but unarmed would help in many situations so...okay.

Lazy Minx said:

[ ] Plan The Littlest Leader

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Swap a buster sword for a staff and I'm in.

Lazy Minx said:

It has just about the same draws and drawbacks that the Buster Sword has

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This seems to be completely ignoring the reason someone takes a staff, which is heal/buff/debuff magic. Sure if you are just going to hit someone with a staff it's reach and stances are going to be like a buster sword (synergy!) but that's missing the point.

anowack said:

If magic... my main problem with Staff is just the visual of "buster sword plus staff" makes no sense to me.

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I'm hopeful on 2 options. First, the staffs are of the sort that could be incorporated or sheathed into the buster sword. (Like a pipe instead of a solid shaft for the handle.) Or second, that the staffs are shorter and anime enough that it's about as long as an arm and can be strapped to a Beck without impending movement too much. Or sheathed like a side-sword? Idk. Three options.

Kei said:

I am relatively inexperienced in this front - I've only ever written two quests of any appreciable length - so I do apologize for stepping into what you consider to be a common pitfall. I suspect it's too late to arrest the forward momentum here, but I would certainly like to ask what you consider superior alternatives to your concerns. If nothing else, as mentioned, I will try to provide an appreciable amount of time for this vote to be carefully discussed and considered.

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With the caveat that I have no experience running any quests and only moderate experience participating: particularly given that this is a narrative quest and a narrative vote, splitting this choice into multiple independent votes for some "categories" of options might have worked better. For instance, separate votes for what secondary weapon to pick and what other classes to take would probably involve less heartache over "I actually would prefer A/Y, but the two leading plans are A/X and B/Y." type issues. The impulse to give us a lot of freedom to set Neianne's training plan is admirable, but we were never very likely to pick five different weapons or not pick any.

I would probably have removed the option to spend multiple slots on the same thing; in the absence of a mechanical framework to nail the effects down, it just makes things more complex without much real benefit. (For instance, as a narrative matter I think everyone is agreed that the buster sword in Neianne's primary weapon and she should keep training with it; is anything gained by voters splitting hairs over whether Buster Sword x2 is worth it?)

As @Candesce suggests, approval voting can be a useful tool for generating consensus from otherwise contentious votes and reducing tactical voting. (Just skimming the thread briefly, I found at least a half-dozen plans that I'd personally approval vote for, most of which only actually got 1 or 2 votes.) Another option I've seen used effectively for complex votes can be multiple rounds of voting with one freeform round like this and then a second round between only the top 2-4 plans from the first round. (I've also seen where the first "round" is just proposing and discussing plans without voting, and the QM the generates the voting options from that discussion.)

I dunno, like I said I have no actual experience as a QM so take this armchair theorizing with the many grains of salt it deserves.

[X] Plan Reinforcing Strengths

Unlike the people who have posted before me, I lack the ability to properly articulate why I disagree with them despite their well worded arguments.

There was always going to be a vote on what the second weapon was. That is what this is.

And, you are right it should be a no brainer that we would vote for Buster Sword again, but, the ability to put on extra training on it appeals to me as well.

The current voting system is not perfect but it is fine.

Can Neianne suplex someone with her height?

AnonymousRabbit said:

Can Neianne suplex someone with her height?

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I...Hrrm. I didn't think a suplex had a height restriction to it but then again...Hrrm.
Either way, I'm more just thinking that double Buster Sword will mean being better with it, and possibly stronger physically as a baseline. Possibly getting to the point of being silly (casually moving fully stocked wardrobes and whatnot.)

[X] Plan The Littlest Leader

because fuck me I'm not around to argue during the day and we've hit 4 more pages and I guess we're already in strategic voting time

Unarmed is there to add kicks and elbows better to Neianne's repertoire while wielding the Buster Sword as well as be hilarious when the sword itself is impractical (also it helps tackle elves in the wilderness and aseri maids uh I mean)

Next year splash Healing Magic to round things out (and also to hang out with Vesna more)

I fully support healing magic next year.

We will become Neianne the Undying.

...can we even heal ourself or is that not allowed in the magic handbook?

I'm hesitant about having the staff as our main secondary. The 2 handed sword by its nature is not a very flexible or versatile weapon - And the buster sword takes that 1 step further, gaining raw overwhelming power in exchange for being even more unwieldy. It can't be half-sworded to reduce some of its close range weaknesses either. It's one of those weapons where a smaller sidearm would be really beneficial.

Mmm, planting our buster sword in battle to draw our staff is going to be quite unwieldy, so it's likely to be used pre or post battle. It's support benefits will be useful definitely, but in-battle healing or buffing would be Neianne temporarily dropping her attacking role to support... Something to consider. Can we get good enough to cast without a staff? Is self-buffs / healing a thing? A buffed up Neianne would be a terror.

Now, about advanced unarmed. It's not a good substitute for a proper secondary weapon. As people have pointed out, its reach and damage can't really match a proper weapon esp. against armoured opponents. (Though if our unarmed gets good enough to crumple armor...) But it's still a useful skill to have. Its strikes can be used to catch people off guard and since the usual way of dealing with Neianne's buster sword for melee fighters is closing in quickly while Neianne is overextended after a swing, reach and range is less of an issue — We're not aiming to run up and punch people.

However, what I feel has more potential is its grappling and takedown aspects. While Neianne probably can't suplex someone, trips, leg grabs, locks, etc are very much on the table. And many weapons, bar the dagger, are pretty much impossible to use if Neianne can grapple someone and better yet, bring them to the ground. Now it can be tricky to pull off but the surprise factor of dropping our sword to jump on someone could help in a crucial battle. It'd be even better if we land a surprise kick / elbow strike first before following up or if there are terrain factors like mud and slush.

My firm opinion here is that both the staff and daggers are choices that are, quite simply, incoherent. And I consider having a coherent and thematic fighting style more important than covering for weaknesses or minmaxing.

The buster sword is an overwheming, brutal weapon. It's slow and and heavy, and fighting effectively with it relies on using the reach and sheer force of the weapon to control the engagement distance and prevent opponents from exploiting openings. Neianne with a buster sword is slow enough that she can't react to an enemy's movements and so has to use her weapons to preempt their actions. It's a weapon built for killing monsters and crowd control.

Daggers? Light and fast, easily concealable, with almost no raw power, relying on quick, fast movements to strike before the enemy can react. Fighting on them is reliant on being able to get within the enemy's guard and exploit weak points in armour. It's literally diametrically opposed to our main weapon, and requires a fighting style that looks completely different from the one we've been learning. Like I said, it leads to thematic incoherency.

Even from an IC perspective, it would force Neianne to learn 2 entirely different sets of fighting styles and the instincts and muscle memory for each, which are going to very possibly conflict with each other.

If you want a sidearm that's more fitting, I'd go for a mace or something similar. Both are weapons based on hitting hard with a lot of force behind the blow, but a mace is better suited for confines where a giant sword would be unwieldy and better suited to dealing with armour because it concentrates the force a lot more.

Neianne dual classing into a healer is not a thing that uh... really makes much sense either.

[X] Plan The Littlest Leader
-[X] Strategy and Logistics
-[X] Tactics and Command
-[X] Buster Swordx2
-[X] Advanced Unarmed Combat
-[X] Social Time

I don't particularly like Stealth or Bestiary Studies. Don't get me wrong, Neianne sneaking around with a buster sword sound hilarious. But, it's not really a direction I'm interested in taking her character. Frankly, I would take just about any of the other possible options before I went for those two courses.

Hrm, so all the choices at once and I'm way behind. Still, an effort should be made!

I want to have Neianne explore the coarser sides of warfare. While the bustersword is going to be our main weapon, we've been learning a lot, and experiencing first hand, the shadier side of war. Our first Conversation with Ravenhill had her imply assassination for fucks sake, and Neianne never really confronted that. With the attack by the squirrels, Neianne has been caught in the duality of 'they're in a war trying their best to stop us from killing them back' and 'this was wrong and reckless, and I hate them for it.' Instead of just leaving us in that limbo, I want to learn more about the thinking about that aspect of warfare, and if it's something that can only be as horrible as it seems, or if you can be a good person even when doing those 'necessary' things.

I don't know if we're going to want to do that, but if we learn all we can and decide not to, we can be counter-intrusion specialist instead. With a big fucking sword.



[x] Plan Face the Darkness
-[x] Espionage
-[x] Sabotage and Trapping
-[x] Tactics and Command
-[x] Buster Sword
-[x] Dual Daggers
-[x] Social Time


So my plan has Buster sword because it is going to be our main weapon, but Dual Daggers lets us be subtle and have a close-in weapon. It's not a typical Dryad weapon, which I think is also good. Neianne may protest, but she's never been a 'standard' of anything.

Dual Daggers also fits with the espionage and sabotage lessons. In truth, there are more options to learn for 'sneaky' stuff, but those seemed the best method for learning about this sort of things.

Tactics and command I feel is needed, because we are squad leader and need to at least get a grounding of it. And social time because Nieanne loves social.

Other options I wouldn't mind taking is: Strategy and Logistics, Stealth, and maaaybe Scouting and Tracking. If someone can make a good case for swapping out Espionage or Sabotage and Trapping on my plan, feel free to advise. I don't plan to overload or lock in Neianne with this plan, so depending on year three we can still focus on upfront battles, or specialize more into a knight/spy hybrid.

But I want to confront how Neianne feels about the non-heroic and non-logistics side of warfare, she's been effected by it, and I think she'll want to learn more about the whys and hows that these things happen.

I know that this build doesn't have a lot of min/maxing synergy, but that's because I don't want to just be good at one role, which I think doesn't play to our natural strengths of being a nice shy polite girl with lots of friends and never says a bad thing about anyone being able to cut throats or plan a sabotage. People look at Neianne and are likely to think she's a front line fighter with her buster sword, big into battles and direct strength, but I think we can be a lot more then that.

Kinruush said:

[X] Plan The Littlest Leader
-[X] Strategy and Logistics
-[X] Tactics and Command
-[X] Buster Swordx2
-[X] Advanced Unarmed Combat
-[X] Social Time

I don't particularly like Stealth or Bestiary Studies. Don't get me wrong, Neianne sneaking around with a buster sword sound hilarious. But, it's not really a direction I'm interested in taking her character. Frankly, I would take just about any of the other possible options before I went for those two courses.

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It's hilarious in the same way that a character suddenly acting wildly OOC is hilarious.

It's funny because it completely breaks the expectations we had. Unfortunately that also leads to incoherency, which is not a good thing.

RubberBandMan said:

*snip*

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...

[X] Literally anything but this

So many choices... and I can only pick six of them

[X] Plan The Littlest Leader

Muramasa said:

So many choices... and I can only pick six of them

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CQC. Let the small Dryad suplex. Suplex Elizabeth if she's mean. Suplex Steph to not be mysterious. Suplex Sieglinde so she can be friendly.


We'll make Zangief proud.

AnonymousRabbit said:

CQC. Let the small Dryad suplex. Suplex Elizabeth if she's mean. Suplex Steph to not be mysterious. Suplex Sieglinde so she can be friendly.


We'll make Zangief proud.

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OOOOR, we can carry Elizabeth around everywhere like a mobile magic weapons platform.

Lazy Minx said:

OOOOR, we can carry Elizabeth around everywhere like a mobile magic weapons platform.

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Or we can be a mobile magic weapons platform that can pack a punch. Liz should invest in giving us some sort of frost armor then we can act as her Mecha.

Candesce said:

One thing that can mitigate some of the negatives here - certainly the pressure against vote-splitting, which we're already seeing - is allowing people to vote for multiple plans at once.

If people can both vote for a plan and for a less popular or newer variant of that plan, you get less tactical voting, and less chance of the two least popular plans accidentally becoming the lead two and no one willing to switch their vote away from second-worst lest the worst win.

Click to expand...

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anowack said:

As @Candesce suggests, approval voting can be a useful tool for generating consensus from otherwise contentious votes and reducing tactical voting. (Just skimming the thread briefly, I found at least a half-dozen plans that I'd personally approval vote for, most of which only actually got 1 or 2 votes.) Another option I've seen used effectively for complex votes can be multiple rounds of voting with one freeform round like this and then a second round between only the top 2-4 plans from the first round. (I've also seen where the first "round" is just proposing and discussing plans without voting, and the QM the generates the voting options from that discussion.)

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People who were around for Stand and Watch Them Fall know that I've done this kind of voting scheme before, am considering this possibility very seriously, and may implement it (unless there is widespread objections), where you can vote with your heart but also have a backup vote for tactical voting if you really insist. I will also take your suggestions into further consideration for year three; I am worried at this point that major changes to how this particular vote is handled is probably a bit too late.

AnonymousRabbit said:

Or we can be a mobile magic weapons platform that can pack a punch. Liz should invest in giving us some sort of frost armor then we can act as her Mecha.

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One day it's a dress the next it's full metal plate armor.

You know she likes to spoil her prey.

Lazy Minx said:

One day it's a dress the next it's full metal plate armor.

You know she likes to spoil her prey.

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Nothing is scarier than a fully armored small Dryad swinging a door around while carrying a maniacal mage elf as a railgun.

So while I think double buster sword is potentially very powerful? It may end up making Neianne a bit too inflexible. So how about some stealth to broaden her horizons a bit?


[x] Plan A Sneaky Adorable Leader
-[x] Strategy and Logistics
-[x] Tactics and Command
-[x] Stealth
-[x] Buster Sword
-[x] Advanced Unarmed Combat
[x] Social Time

[X] Plan Reinforcing Strengths