The Wild Edge (Fantasy Border Outpost)

Nevill · Oct 12, 2018

inverted_helix said:
Note I converted the levy to a footman group but averaged their starting bonus with the current footman group, lowering effective combat rating on the one you had. This is reasonable in universe as just mixing the units together. Out of universe this quest is complex enough that I don't really want to track separate skill ratings too.

I am a bit sad about this decision. Tracking individual units would be very much welcome, as we are already differentiating between them. By morale, by casualties, and through other means (enhancements, experience, etc.) It has potential for specializing units (both units are footmen, but one is anti-infantry, and the other are good trackers or something), and a potential for a better story (the 2nd huntter unit's past haunting new arrivals and lowering morale permanently would have been a great touch).

In other words, to me it sounds better to treat combat units like we do named characters, with a separate entry for each. We are unlikely to get so many units that it becomes an issue.

But then, I am not the one doing the number-crunching.

inverted_helix said:
3. I'm not entirely clear what you're asking here? Going to make a guess. When you purchase advance supplies the 5% discount is applied, it won't be applied again if you have cause to use them, so it will be applied pre-discount to upkeep.

When do supplies get used? We have 350 Deniers worth of supplies, but what does it mean?

Right now I am not sure whether the amount we curently keep is decent or low. I would assume there is no spoilage mechanic?

veekie said:
Currently the economy limits us. We'd be skipping construction every other turn.

That isn't too bad? I mean, a construction crew can pay back its upkeep by working the Sawmill. So hiring another two crews would only be increasing the upkeep by 100 Denier during downtime, and additional 100 for when we need to rush some project or other.

Also, does the current plan suggest sending our units across the Overgrowth during the winter? And mostly ranged units, at that?
I am not sure how they will keep themselves warm in the absense of fires unless we come along with the enchantments. And maybe we should reinforce them with footmen? It's not like the orcs will be raiding much in winter, so why patrol the forests when we can keep a unit back to guard the base instead?

veekie · Oct 12, 2018

Nevill said:
Also, does the current plan suggest sending our units across the Overgrowth during the winter? And mostly ranged units, at that?
I am not sure how they will keep themselves warm in the absense of fires unless we come along with the enchantments. And maybe we should reinforce them with footmen? It's not like the orcs will be raiding much in winter, so why patrol the forests when we can keep a unit back to guard the base instead?

Its mainly a recon in force they're there to scout and if they get a chance, do some damage in winter when the orcs can least afford it.

inverted_helix · Oct 12, 2018

Nevill said:
I am a bit sad about this decision. Tracking individual units would be very much welcome, as we are already differentiating between them. By morale, by casualties, and through other means (enhancements, experience, etc.) It has potential for specializing units (both units are footmen, but one is anti-infantry, and the other are good trackers or something), and a potential for a better story (the 2nd huntter unit's past haunting new arrivals and lowering morale permanently would have been a great touch).

In other words, to me it sounds better to treat combat units like we do named characters, with a separate entry for each. We are unlikely to get so many units that it becomes an issue.

But then, I am not the one doing the number-crunching.

I could still separate it out. I'm just not sure because players would then have to specify which unit is doing what. Also I'm expecting your number of units to rather rapidly climb in the future since you've reached a stage where your income is climbing pretty well.

Nevill said:
When do supplies get used? We have 350 Deniers worth of supplies, but what does it mean?

Right now I am not sure whether the amount we curently keep is decent or low. I would assume there is no spoilage mechanic?

No spoilage mechanic because you use what's oldest first and have a lot of less-perishable sorts of stuff. The supplies get used all the time in the sense oldest is used first, but are restocked at same rate. The only time that it declines is if you can't pay your upkeep normally for some reason. Out of money or cut off from resupply (by weather or siege).

Nevill · Oct 12, 2018

inverted_helix said:
I'm just not sure because players would then have to specify which unit is doing what.

But we've been doing that all along? Remember those 'mauled hunter unit stands back and picks up flowers' actions?

inverted_helix said:
Out of money or cut off from resupply (by weather or siege).

In other words, we should strive to reach ~1500 if we want to be able to hold out for a season.

Zaratustra · Oct 12, 2018

Nevill said:
That isn't too bad? I mean, a construction crew can pay back its upkeep by working the Sawmill. So hiring another two crews would only be increasing the upkeep by 100 Denier during downtime, and additional 100 for when we need to rush some project or other.

Actualy there is no Upkeep since any units we request will have all expenses paid for the foreseable future in enchange for the healing fruits.

Wich raise the question @veekie, @Void Stalker, @Varder can any of you explain why you are wasting so muych potential be requesting a single specialist ? And why doing half progress on the armor instead of making another grove ? Do you people hate money and progres or something ?

Nevill said:
In other words, we should strive to reach ~1500 if we want to be able to hold out for a season.

More like 1125 since supplies brought in advance cost 75%.

veekie · Oct 12, 2018

Zaratustra said:
Actualy there is no Upkeep since any units we request will have all expenses paid for the foreseable future in enchange for the healing fruits.

Wich raise the question @veekie, @Void Stalker, @Varder can any of you explain why you are wasting so muych potential be requesting a single specialist ? And why doing half progress on the armor instead of making another grove ? Do you people hate money and progres or something ?

Because we want to get the potions going as early as possible and we can get everything else with that money/favor drip.
The specialist is sure to be good.

Also planting another grove in winter seems ill advised. Nerissa goes to sleep then. Plant in spring. Spend winter on finishing our debt, because you can bet he'd be here by Summer latest

Nevill · Oct 12, 2018

inverted_helix said:
It's what counts as paying the upkeep on the units you requisition.

Did you mean 'cost' instead of 'upkeep'? Cost is the money we pay upfront, upkeep is the money we pay to keep the units functioning (feeding them, arming them, paying their salary etc.)?

My understanding was that we get them for free, but still pay for their services.

Zaratustra said:
More like 1125 since supplies brought in advance cost 75%.

Is there any quote about it?

inverted_helix said:
255 starting -1178 upkeep this turn +0.95*(-250 construction -50 enchanting -350 advance supplies) -100 recruitment +600 season payment +400 sawmill +200 Wood Workshop +200 charcoal +400 herb sales = 159

I am only seeing the regular 0.95 modifier applied.

Edit:

veekie said:
Also planting another grove in winter seems ill advised. Nerissa goes to sleep then.

She doesn't hibernate unless the winters get extreme, but the logic is sound. Winter is not the planting season.

Varder · Oct 12, 2018

Zaratustra said:
Wich raise the question @veekie, @Void Stalker, @Varder can any of you explain why you are wasting so muych potential be requesting a single specialist ? And why doing half progress on the armor instead of making another grove ? Do you people hate money and progres or something ?

veekie said:
Because we want to get the potions going as early as possible and we can get everything else with that money/favor drip.
The specialist is sure to be good.

This.

The armor thing - our country also needs magic fruits more than it needs Kaleb, sadly. And Kaleb won't need his armor during winter so we can finish it during spring - so he'll have to survive only one season without it. I say it's acceptable risk for getting fruits going now.

Zaratustra · Oct 12, 2018

veekie said:
Because we want to get the potions going as early as possible and we can get everything else with that money/favor drip.
The specialist is sure to be good.

Okay, explain this again to me, how is getting more people to get things going suposed to slow things down ?
Also what money/favor drip you are talking about ? The only thing we will get from the fruits anytime soon is the stuff we request this time.

Nevill said:
My understanding was that we get them for free, but still pay for their services.

inverted_helix said:
2. Well I was originally going to have him paying their upkeep as part of it (at least for a little while). Though if you'd just like the initial hiring cost paid you can do that as well.

Nevill said:
Is there any quote about it?

inverted_helix said:
You can choose to pay for upkeep cost for future seasons in advance now to represent picking up supplies for cheaper here than they will be at the destination. Pay 75% of upkeep for future seasons.

Nevill said:
She doesn't hibernate unless the winters get extreme, but the logic is sound. Winter is not the planting season.

veekie said:
Also planting another grove in winter seems ill advised. Nerissa goes to sleep then. Plant in spring. Spend winter on finishing our debt, because you can bet he'd be here by Summer latest

People this is magical florest called literaly the Overgrowth and we have a driad, there is a reason our herb production is unaffected be winter, short of a century storm it doesn't matter much when we try to plant stuff.

Void Stalker · Oct 12, 2018

We have done 1.5 of 3 seasons work on the armor. Another half action and we can finish it in the spring or summer dependent on research needs.

Zaratustra · Oct 12, 2018

Varder said:
The armor thing - our country also needs magic fruits more than it needs Kaleb, sadly. And Kaleb won't need his armor during winter so we can finish it during spring - so he'll have to survive only one season without it. I say it's acceptable risk for getting fruits going now.

This fells contradictory.

inverted_helix said:
Also planning that the saints blood trees require 2-3 season growth before providing fruit,

Wouldn't it mae more sense then to plant a second grove now and work on the armor latter since the fruit has priority ?

Varder · Oct 12, 2018

Zaratustra said:
This fells contradictory.

I think he can survive one season without armor so I'll take the risk, but I'm not comfortable with him going without armor for two seasons. So if this was spring we're planning for, I'd vote for finishing armor.

Is this better?

Zaratustra · Oct 12, 2018

Varder said:
I think he can survive one season without armor so I'll take the risk, but I'm not comfortable with him going without armor for two seasons. So if this was spring we're planning for, I'd vote for finishing armor.

Is this better?

Not realy, you do know he does have good armor and is super combatant right ? He isn't fighting naked because his overenginered masterwork was delayed.

Also while we are at it can someone explain why people are requesting so little ?

inverted_helix · Oct 12, 2018

Nevill said:
But we've been doing that all along? Remember those 'mauled hunter unit stands back and picks up flowers' actions?

You've raised a fair point. I've split them out for now. We'll see how it goes.

At some point as your company expands it's going to be necessary to consolidate, but I don't mind humoring you on it a while longer.

Nevill said:
In other words, we should strive to reach ~1500 if we want to be able to hold out for a season.

Pretty much.

Zaratustra said:
More like 1125 since supplies brought in advance cost 75%.

Nevill said:
Is there any quote about it?
I am only seeing the regular 0.95 modifier applied.

That was a different mechanic. Basically at the start of the quest I was letting you cut some middle men out of the process and drag the supplies back yourself at a discount. But it's a false comparison. That was basically paying in action slots to reduce your monetary cost. I abandoned it later for scaling reasons. (OC because it scaled too well in value to action cost, IC because once your upkeep reached a certain level you hauling it around wasn't that easy.)

Nevill said:
Did you mean 'cost' instead of 'upkeep'? Cost is the money we pay upfront, upkeep is the money we pay to keep the units functioning (feeding them, arming them, paying their salary etc.)?

My understanding was that we get them for free, but still pay for their services.

He's willing to effectively pay both cost and upkeep. But there is a running tally of what he's paying that will be calculated out of "fair value" of goods later when he isn't trying to win a war. Does that make sense?

veekie said:
Also planting another grove in winter seems ill advised. Nerissa goes to sleep then. Plant in spring. Spend winter on finishing our debt, because you can bet he'd be here by Summer latest

Nevill said:
She doesn't hibernate unless the winters get extreme, but the logic is sound. Winter is not the planting season.

She doesn't hibernate unless you get very severe winter weather. Most winters she stays awake through.

Zaratustra said:
People this is magical florest called literaly the Overgrowth and we have a driad, there is a reason our herb production is unaffected be winter, short of a century storm it doesn't matter much when we try to plant stuff.

It's not completely accurate to say it doesn't matter, since winter weather will give a malus, but it's normally fairly insignificant. Because yeah this is a magical forest and your plants are supported by a dryad.

Varder said:
The armor thing - our country also needs magic fruits more than it needs Kaleb, sadly. And Kaleb won't need his armor during winter so we can finish it during spring - so he'll have to survive only one season without it. I say it's acceptable risk for getting fruits going now.

Zaratustra said:
Not realy, you do know he does have good armor and is super combatant right ? He isn't fighting naked because his overenginered masterwork was delayed.

It's worth noting that he is just using his spare armor right now. Of course he has a second set, because normally armor gets damaged in combat, and Kaleb isn't always willing to wait for repairs.

I am very glad to see all the discussion.

Varder · Oct 12, 2018

Zaratustra said:
Not realy, you do know he does have good armor and is super combatant right ? He isn't fighting naked because his overenginered masterwork was delayed.

??? What is the point you are trying to make? Do you want to delay armor even further?

And laws of ironic drama totally mean that if Kaleb doesn't have our armor he'll die in the war.

megrisvernin · Oct 12, 2018

I thought this was one of our better updates, and with a lot of character scenes. Nerissa given emphais as the fruit had top billing and was I thought especially adorable. Hope player feedback shows they agred it too.

Zaratustra · Oct 12, 2018

Varder said:
??? What is the point you are trying to make? Do you want to delay armor even further?

And laws of ironic drama totally mean that if Kaleb doesn't have our armor he'll die in the war.

Yes, I want to delay armore some to focus on the magical healin fruit this turn, also this is a quest rulled be dice instead of drama, a larg fruit supply should help keep him alive enought to finish armor, may even help him more than the armor since he has a high atrition problem.

Nevill · Oct 12, 2018

inverted_helix said:
My only regret with this update is I didn't come up with a non-plan vote for it. I feel like there probably would be a place for it and I just missed it.

It would be amusing if we had an option to side with one of the experts on the importance of their trade, and gain unique bonuses and/or penalties as a result. Even as it is there was a mention of how we require a skilled potioneer to make the most out of what we have (thus we have reasons to value one of those over others), but probably some arguments could be made in favor of the healer as well.

I understand Tristan's desire for not touching any of that and just staying out of discussion, but given the argument and that he is a bit of a scholar himself this just felt like a natural point for an interjection.

Instead he did the Tristan thing and scared them out of their wits.

veekie · Oct 12, 2018

Zaratustra said:
Not realy, you do know he does have good armor and is super combatant right ? He isn't fighting naked because his overenginered masterwork was delayed.

And we owe him a debt, so should endeavor to clear said debt as fast as possible. When Winter is the worst season to do planting stuff in. Might as well not risk wasting actions, do the forging in winter and come spring we convert our groves to magic fruit.

Zaratustra said:
Also while we are at it can someone explain why people are requesting so little ?

Considering the cost of recruiting specialists its not requesting little at all. We got a 100->97 reward, if we ask for potion expert, we're getting the best that can be spared rather than the equivalent of our current unremarkable herbalist.

Zaratustra · Oct 12, 2018

veekie said:
And we owe him a debt, so should endeavor to clear said debt as fast as possible. When Winter is the worst season to do planting stuff in. Might as well not risk wasting actions, do the forging in winter and come spring we convert our groves to magic fruit.

Per word Of QM the extra difficulty is pretty insignificant. So there is no risk planting in winter.

inverted_helix said:
It's not completely accurate to say it doesn't matter, since winter weather will give a malus, but it's normally fairly insignificant. Because yeah this is a magical forest and your plants are supported by a dryad.

veekie said:
Considering the cost of recruiting specialists its not requesting little at all. We got a 100->97 reward, if we ask for potion expert, we're getting the best that can be spared rather than the equivalent of our current unremarkable herbalist.

Lets ask then @inverted_helix @megrisvernin could either of you clarify if asking for only one specialist means we get a better unit than if we asked for multiple or it doesn't matter and the quality of what we get will be constant ?

Nevill · Oct 12, 2018

As far as I understand it...

The value of our latest invention is high. Say, it's 1500 Denier, or +600 Denier/month (our herbs are +400. and this is more valuable), or something along these lines.

We can take some of it upfront if we justify it. Since the game follows the 'get the advantage at the earliest juncture so you could snowball it', as most strategies do, there is an incentive to request more now rather than have it paid later (and we don't know how the war will go and whether they will have anything left to pay us with).

So for balancing reasons I'd prefer it if caching in early gave us less than waiting for it to be properly assessed. Even then I'd probably vote for a bigger initial request.

hcvquizibo · Oct 12, 2018

[X][Request] A potioneer or healer to help you refine the effect into a more stable form.
[X] Plan Recon In Force

butchock · Oct 12, 2018

for our boon, aside from a Master Potioneer or Healer, I suggest a Hero Hunter or Ranger, another named character if possible. Someone that is quite skilled in woodlore that he ambushes animals instead of our current situation

megrisvernin · Oct 12, 2018

Zaratustra said:
Per word Of QM the extra difficulty is pretty insignificant. So there is no risk planting in winter.

Lets ask then @inverted_helix @megrisvernin could either of you clarify if asking for only one specialist means we get a better unit than if we asked for multiple or it doesn't matter and the quality of what we get will be constant ?

Quality is constant I think. Remember the more you ask, the more your father expects. You can ask for more experts, just keep in mind your father will expect you to provide more. Remember that the assistance you request is in effect 'payment' for more of the healing potion at least till the War is over.

wingstrike96 · Oct 12, 2018

[X][Request] A potioneer or healer to help you refine the effect into a more stable form.
[X] Plan Recon In Force

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