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You Are: A sector admiral of a strained imperium.

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I feel like people voting Demand A Lot More + Infrastructure & Surrender are being unrealistic with their expectations. We know we can pretty much singlehandedly give her the Empire, but the problem is convincing her of that. And with Diplomacy 7, potentially plus a small modifier, I don't see us convincing her all the way. Demand More feels like a comfortable balance. Although being obviously a client of her house doesn't feel right to me. If it were possible to do a mix-and-match, I'd want overall strategic command, a share now, and then the rest later, once we're obviously helping them and thus giving shares won't tip anyone off early. Of course, again, that doesn't feel like something Diplomacy 7 Reinhard could achieve.

Frankly, I'm not comfortable with any of the options yet, I'll need a bit of swaying. I think the only things I'm hard against are Infrastructure & Surrender (I think she's close enough to the mark that if we're going to have a war, it needs to be now, when they're not consolidated yet), Demand A Lot More (It'd be nice, but I don't see us being able to secure that kind of deal without three sixes), Arrest Her (As has been said before, we simply don't have the proof, and I don't think the Imperial House could afford to seriously back us when they're in such dire straits. Moreover, the Imperial side isn't the winning side here. Their backing won't amount to anything in the long run), or Refuse (The most passive option, and this isn't a situation we can afford to be passive in. We've got to commit to one side or another, or at least act like we are. The Imperial House will be even less inclined to shelter us, I feel, as we haven't arrested the traitor. And as before, the Imperials are pretty firmly the losing side in my mind).

Everything else is on the table.

I feel like some of this wasn't as well-reasoned as it should be. It is, however, 2 AM. So that'd probably be why.
 
Fezzes said:
I feel like people voting Demand A Lot More + Infrastructure & Surrender are being unrealistic with their expectations. We know we can pretty much singlehandedly give her the Empire, but the problem is convincing her of that. And with Diplomacy 7, potentially plus a small modifier, I don't see us convincing her all the way. Demand More feels like a comfortable balance. Although being obviously a client of her house doesn't feel right to me. If it were possible to do a mix-and-match, I'd want overall strategic command, a share now, and then the rest later, once we're obviously helping them and thus giving shares won't tip anyone off early. Of course, again, that doesn't feel like something Diplomacy 7 Reinhard could achieve.

Frankly, I'm not comfortable with any of the options yet, I'll need a bit of swaying. I think the only things I'm hard against are Infrastructure & Surrender (I think she's close enough to the mark that if we're going to have a war, it needs to be now, when they're not consolidated yet), Demand A Lot More (It'd be nice, but I don't see us being able to secure that kind of deal without three sixes), Arrest Her (As has been said before, we simply don't have the proof, and I don't think the Imperial House could afford to seriously back us when they're in such dire straits. Moreover, the Imperial side isn't the winning side here. Their backing won't amount to anything in the long run), or Refuse (The most passive option, and this isn't a situation we can afford to be passive in. We've got to commit to one side or another, or at least act like we are. The Imperial House will be even less inclined to shelter us, I feel, as we haven't arrested the traitor. And as before, the Imperials are pretty firmly the losing side in my mind).

Everything else is on the table.

I feel like some of this wasn't as well-reasoned as it should be. It is, however, 2 AM. So that'd probably be why.
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I think what people are thinking here is to start high and have her bargain us down to something higher than merely accepting
 
[X] Refuse
-[X] "I have no interest in the words of a mouthpiece with no understanding of the situation before her. Upon this Sector and more the NASP can be broken, not in battle, but by their very nature. I will not endanger the Imperium, regardless of who rules it, by giving them unity in a moment of our weakness. You will obey my orders, aid in the execution of this plan, and then we will return to the sector capital. You know that what is said here will not be recorded by my implants and I have no interest in attempting to bring you down when I have no proof. You will suffer in the court of your peers for your conduct today. That is enough."
 
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[X] Arrest Her. She is attempting conspiracy to treason, broadcast to all ships that she is a traitor then board the Fafnir and take her captive.
 
kaeim said:
I think what people are thinking here is to start high and have her bargain us down to something higher than merely accepting
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I can see why people would want to try that, but I'd like to point something out. There's always a risk with that in pushing too hard and devaluing the entire conversation because they feel insulted. And as I feel I should stress again, Reinhard doesn't have the negotiation chops to handle that right without a lot of luck on his part. Not if we're asking for literally everything as our first offer. If she straight up walks then, records of the conversation will be self-incriminating, because we'll be handing over evidence that yes, we actually are willing to betray the Imperial house. Even if it's for a very high price, that kind of confirmation that 'yes, he will turn on you' could really hamper our prospects if we try to make the Imperials the winning team.
 
[X] Demand More. Agree to her proposal in return for five shares, sufficient to make you a baron, along with assurance of strategic command when you openly move to the side of her family in future. This will make it obvious that you are a client of House Arslan, people take note of that level of share transfer. You would be asking for the value of a pair of battlecruisers with screening fast ships or a flotilla of light cruisers, a significant investment even for a rich ducal house.
[X] Infrastructure & Surrender. You will limit bombardment of Chuang Mu to infrastructure and take the monitor's surrender. You will seek to provoke the war another way.

In addition to the risks involved in failing to convince her that we're worth the cost, I think it's worth noting that if we're angling to join Arslan(or at least exploit them for our own gain), pulling a bunch of their resources to us might not be the most productive course of action. Giving ourselves a future fleet handicap because we were too greedy now would be pretty embarrassing. In terms of fighting the NASP, we can probably figure out a way to incite war soon if we can get confirmation that the NASP is engaged in a huge armament program(and it's about to finish), and she isn't just talking it up to try and get us on side. I would wish we could express some flexibility on this- if she seems inclined to accept our costs, but really pushes for bombarding Chuang Mu, then it's evidence that there really is a clock ticking down and we should go for it. The best case really is that there is a huge armament program, but that it is not nearly as close to completion as she is presenting. In that case, our play to cause internal issues for the NASP would be even more effective.​
 
[X] Arrest Her. She is attempting conspiracy to treason, broadcast to all ships that she is a traitor then board the Fafnir and take her captive.

I don't really like this option, but the other leading vote puts us on the viscountess' side. I'd rather prop up the weak Imperial house until it's time to take over, because if we do succeed in puling off a coup for House Arslan they won't need us once they're in power. We'd have to pull another coup, and that just opens the door to even more coup attempts from other great Houses. Plus, the current empress is female IIRC, so if we really want to do the Napolean thing and marry into royalty there is a much more direct route available. :V
 
I wonder if we can scam her into coming aboard to discuss things and then arrest her there where she's not like surrounded by loyal marines and aides.
 
me.me.here said:
[X] Arrest Her. She is attempting conspiracy to treason, broadcast to all ships that she is a traitor then board the Fafnir and take her captive.

I don't really like this option, but the other leading vote puts us on the viscountess' side. I'd rather prop up the weak Imperial house until it's time to take over, because if we do succeed in puling off a coup for House Arslan they won't need us once they're in power. We'd have to pull another coup, and that just opens the door to even more coup attempts from other great Houses. Plus, the current empress is female IIRC, so if we really want to do the Napolean thing and marry into royalty there is a much more direct route available. :V
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Arresting her means angering all the noble houses, especially since we have no proof of her treason...

Also the Empress is old and has no heir. And she would not marry a commoner, I think you'd likely have to have Hapsburg level of noble inbreeding to have a shot at that
 
Artificial Girl said:
I wonder if we can scam her into coming aboard to discuss things and then arrest her there where she's not like surrounded by loyal marines and aides.
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Is there another reason we'd want her aboard though? She should only be willing to have this conversation via implants since we presumably could record her if we spoke in person.
Adhoc vote count started by George on Sep 11, 2018 at 4:57 PM, finished with 130 posts and 47 votes.
  • [X] Arrest Her. She is attempting conspiracy to treason, broadcast to all ships that she is a traitor then board the Fafnir and take her captive.
    [X] Infrastructure & Surrender. You will limit bombardment of Chuang Mu to infrastructure and take the monitor's surrender. You will seek to provoke the war another way.
    [X] Demand A Lot More. Agree to her proposal only if she will make you a baron immediately, with another five shares to follow and a guarantee that you will be given strategic command when you openly move to her families' side in the future. Given people will know where the shares come from, this is going to make it obvious that you are a client of House Arslan, but also a terrifyingly valued one. You would be asking for the value of a planet or nearly two squadrons of capital ships, enough to build up House Arslan's navy by at least a fifth and probably a quarter instead.
    [X] Demand More. Agree to her proposal in return for five shares, sufficient to make you a baron, along with assurance of strategic command when you openly move to the side of her family in future. This will make it obvious that you are a client of House Arslan, people take note of that level of share transfer. You would be asking for the value of a pair of battlecruisers with screening fast ships or a flotilla of light cruisers, a significant investment even for a rich ducal house.
    [X] No. You let her go along with her original plan of genocide and refusing surrender to create an atrocity, be it her plan or her fathers.
    [X] Refuse. You will have no part of what is, ultimately, treason and genocide.
    [X] Accept Surrender.
    [X] Accept Her Proposal. Agree with her proposal, you are being healthily bribed and a single share from somebody as influential and rich as her could be construed as her being genuinely grateful for your assistance and skill in battle, a noble gesture from a mentee to a mentor and attempt to influence you rather than outright patronage from her house.
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Fezzes said:
I can see why people would want to try that, but I'd like to point something out. There's always a risk with that in pushing too hard and devaluing the entire conversation because they feel insulted. And as I feel I should stress again, Reinhard doesn't have the negotiation chops to handle that right without a lot of luck on his part. Not if we're asking for literally everything as our first offer. If she straight up walks then, records of the conversation will be self-incriminating, because we'll be handing over evidence that yes, we actually are willing to betray the Imperial house. Even if it's for a very high price, that kind of confirmation that 'yes, he will turn on you' could really hamper our prospects if we try to make the Imperials the winning team.
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The thing is most won't care. Either we get the cake or we murder her (sorry "arrest" her). Thats the two options chosen at the moment. I think most people who chose the "give me the goods option" are either waiting to be haggled down or alternatively use arrest as second option. Because we can always arrest her if she does not bow to our demands.
 
me.me.here said:
I don't really like this option, but the other leading vote puts us on the viscountess' side. I'd rather prop up the weak Imperial house until it's time to take over, because if we do succeed in puling off a coup for House Arslan they won't need us once they're in power. We'd have to pull another coup, and that just opens the door to even more coup attempts from other great Houses. Plus, the current empress is female IIRC, so if we really want to do the Napolean thing and marry into royalty there is a much more direct route available. :V
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could you explain why you think arslan has more incentive to betray us after victory than the imperial house does?

From where i'm looking, at the point we've won we'll have an elite, loyal force under us, the empire will be at once greatly expanded and greatly weakened, the arslan heir will have more to worry about from her own family trying to take her place in the succession than us. All of which combines to incentivize her to make sure our loyalty is secure and that we are wedded to her cause, possibly literally.

If you intend to start a coup anyways, then that still requires a broad collaboration with other forces, because otherwise we're too outmatched for even us to win and we risk a threesided civil war.

Even if you intend to stay apparently loyal until your sudden, yet inevitable betrayal, we've already seen that distrust and oppression of commoners is ramping up because of imhotep. The empire will definitely keep a sharp eye on it's commoner officers, especially since we know that having a single battlecruiser with an elite crew was scary enough to strip our crew away and let us languish once they had no immediate need of us.
 
[X] Demand A Lot More. Agree to her proposal only if she will make you a baron immediately, with another five shares to follow and a guarantee that you will be given strategic command when you openly move to her families' side in the future. Given people will know where the shares come from, this is going to make it obvious that you are a client of House Arslan, but also a terrifyingly valued one. You would be asking for the value of a planet or nearly two squadrons of capital ships, enough to build up House Arslan's navy by at least a fifth and probably a quarter instead.
[X] Infrastructure & Surrender. You will limit bombardment of Chuang Mu to infrastructure and take the monitor's surrender. You will seek to provoke the war another way.
 
[X] Demand A Lot More. Agree to her proposal only if she will make you a baron immediately, with another five shares to follow and a guarantee that you will be given strategic command when you openly move to her families' side in the future. Given people will know where the shares come from, this is going to make it obvious that you are a client of House Arslan, but also a terrifyingly valued one. You would be asking for the value of a planet or nearly two squadrons of capital ships, enough to build up House Arslan's navy by at least a fifth and probably a quarter instead.
[X] Infrastructure & Surrender. You will limit bombardment of Chuang Mu to infrastructure and take the monitor's surrender. You will seek to provoke the war another way.
 
[X] Demand More. Agree to her proposal in return for five shares, sufficient to make you a baron, along with assurance of strategic command when you openly move to the side of her family in future. This will make it obvious that you are a client of House Arslan, people take note of that level of share transfer. You would be asking for the value of a pair of battlecruisers with screening fast ships or a flotilla of light cruisers, a significant investment even for a rich ducal house.
[X] No. You let her go along with her original plan of genocide and refusing surrender to create an atrocity, be it her plan or her fathers.
 
If you guys want to accept the deal, the only thing that we should try to get out of the viscountess aside from the deal she proposed is that we only bombard the infrastructure and to accept the monitor's surrender, as getting too greedy here might not be a good thing, depending on whether or not our exchange with her still benefits from the +5 to diplo from political capital (reminder that changes in diplo seem to occur at a one turn delay... remember when we changed our lifestyle, and we didn't imediately get the diplo bonus? it is possible that the same principle applies here)
 
Go big or go home imho. On the other hand...

[X] Demand More. Agree to her proposal in return for five shares, sufficient to make you a baron, along with assurance of strategic command when you openly move to the side of her family in future. This will make it obvious that you are a client of House Arslan, people take note of that level of share transfer. You would be asking for the value of a pair of battlecruisers with screening fast ships or a flotilla of light cruisers, a significant investment even for a rich ducal house.
[X] Infrastructure & Surrender. You will limit bombardment of Chuang Mu to infrastructure and take the monitor's surrender. You will seek to provoke the war another way.
 
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[X] Arrest Her. She is attempting conspiracy to treason, broadcast to all ships that she is a traitor then board the Fafnir and take her captive
 
[X] Arrest Her. She is attempting conspiracy to treason, broadcast to all ships that she is a traitor then board the Fafnir and take her captive.
 
[X] Arrest Her. She is attempting conspiracy to treason, broadcast to all ships that she is a traitor then board the Fafnir and take her captive.
 
[X] Arrest Her. She is attempting conspiracy to treason, broadcast to all ships that she is a traitor then board the Fafnir and take her captive
 
[X] Demand More. Agree to her proposal in return for five shares, sufficient to make you a baron, along with assurance of strategic command when you openly move to the side of her family in future. This will make it obvious that you are a client of House Arslan, people take note of that level of share transfer. You would be asking for the value of a pair of battlecruisers with screening fast ships or a flotilla of light cruisers, a significant investment even for a rich ducal house.
[X] Infrastructure & Surrender. You will limit bombardment of Chuang Mu to infrastructure and take the monitor's surrender. You will seek to provoke the war another way.
 
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