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You Are: A sector admiral of a strained imperium.
- Thread starter Packrat
- Start date
- Original Sci-Fi
- Location
- Somewhere in the stacks
- Pronouns
- She/Her
If we DO raid Chuang Mu, we need to pull in our patrol cutters because we're gonna need all the recce we can get in this very sticky situation.
- Location
- New York
Yes, there are on going expenses. I never argued that. But the fact is that prizes/raiding are better for wealth/PC generation than everything else. That is the core point of my argument. Spending wealth on our personal capital ship is not a waste. You have probably forgotten, but our original Battlecrusier was taken away at the start. So having a very strong ship that can't be taken away like that is important. For the reason of getting prizes/raiding.
More ships=more secure. If the person after us fails, that isn't our problem. If we are put in charge of multiple sectors, we can address the budget then. Having more ships directly makes the sector more secure and allows more opportunities for raiding/prizes.
His policies are insane and so are yours for the fact you don't want a Battlecrusier. You want to cripple our ability just for the lols. You also ignore how we are looked down on for not having a Share and the benefits that come with one. We only need one Share at the moment for political cover. In fact there is a strong argument to be made that investing in a Share now, would save a lot more PC in the long run.
After the disaster of raiding the last planetary system, it clearly isn't as worthwhile as capturing a Capital Ship. The Monitor isn't coming out from the planetary defenses. That leaves the 3 ships over Imhotep. That is the ballsy play with the most return, to try and take those Capital ships. Again you talk about wasting PC for the Sector Budget, when it won't pay for itself for years when we could buy ships instead for a much more immediate impact. Also there is no guarantee that investing PC will lead to an increase in the budget, we still have to roll for it, I believe.
You want ships to raid, but you want to invest in the budget. You can't have both and ships are clearly the superior option to investing, since we can use them to capture things. If any investment, we should invest our personal wealth, but even that has a very long time period until we get paid back.
We can't push much further against NASP directly, not without getting a war on our hands. And raiding Chuang Mu in force could get us stuck in that tar pit of planetary defence for weeks, while their fleet rampages across our relatively undefended systems which are rife with dissidents.
Not to mention turning Rana salient into a wedge in our space instead of an isolated packet.
While taking out that fleet would limit PC loss due to almost losing a planet instead of doing it outright without even contesting it, get us more immediate Wealth and PC by the way of fleet battle, and allow us to raid Chuang Mu a little time later - or, for example, pressuring the Rana salient.
Strauss is built for fleet battles; Why should we avoid one?
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Satar
Xetares, Third Redeemer; World Drinker
- Location
- Sesh
No because it's all about immediate gratification at future expense. There are postings that don't need Battlecruisers or Battleships that are nonetheless great for our prospects in the medium to long term. E.g., that fleet theater posting that Packrat mentioned or, say, being the Commandant of a the most prestigious Naval Academy in the Empire-- these are the postings that would allow us to grow our strategy/tactics, recruit promising coworkers or subordinates, and earn a bonanza of PC. But if we need to pay full price just to retain the battlecruiser or battleship, the majority will balk and you know it.
I don't think that the task ahead of us is fundamentally impossible to accomplish with our current forces and that is why I'm hesitant to spend any more than we need to.
Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
- Location
- Wordcats
That's quite enough. Debate is one thing, insults are quite another.
Please refrain from the latter.
Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
- Location
- Wordcats
Hmm. That's fair.
I think I'm going to have to see how much the BC comes in at in terms of cost before I make up my mind, but I do appreciate your position. Thanks for making it clear.
Fiscal responsibility isn't insane. Your policies are stupid. Mine ensures we have a private and public fleet we can sustainably support without the risk of going into debt.
What do you think a private battlecruiser is and how do you think it is purchased? With Wealth not Political Capital. You still ignore half of what I say and ignore the quotes by the QM. That is extremely frustrating and it is why I stopped posting.
More ships doesn't mean more secure if they leave the moment we're transferred. It is going to be our problem upon review when we leave the next person with an under-strength fleet that can't secure the sector.
Where the fuck did I argue against raiding for prize money? Ever? That has nothing to do with it.
I lost my patience when I had to argue with three people at once and it doesn't help who two of them were.
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Yeah, the histrionics are starting to grate.
Which is a shame, because people are also making good points.
In my view getting the Sword of Democracy at a discount and smacking up the BBs over Imhotep like loot pinatas is the highest return path we can take. People are making interesting arguments for hitting Chuang Mu again, but after the time it took to look Chuang Mu last time and the middling return we got, I'm not convinced it offers as good a payoff.
If we don't want to keep the SoD, we can easily give it to Adald and let him get transferred away, or let our hero Wison get it and let her get transferred away.
(I am pretty sure we'd get PC out of giving either a sweet ride.)
fasquardon
Which is a shame, because people are also making good points.
In my view getting the Sword of Democracy at a discount and smacking up the BBs over Imhotep like loot pinatas is the highest return path we can take. People are making interesting arguments for hitting Chuang Mu again, but after the time it took to look Chuang Mu last time and the middling return we got, I'm not convinced it offers as good a payoff.
If we don't want to keep the SoD, we can easily give it to Adald and let him get transferred away, or let our hero Wison get it and let her get transferred away.
(I am pretty sure we'd get PC out of giving either a sweet ride.)
fasquardon
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If people could avoid insults and vehement argument that would be great, I mean I love to see debate here but would appreciate it keeping a civil tone.
Right now the decision is over your initial pitch strategy wise, discussion over what to do with wealth/political capital and your time relevant options can come afterwards - you will have 1-2 in character weeks before being able to take any real kind of action.
Right now the decision is over your initial pitch strategy wise, discussion over what to do with wealth/political capital and your time relevant options can come afterwards - you will have 1-2 in character weeks before being able to take any real kind of action.
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
@PeliusAnar Dude. We do need to raise the budget enough to maintain our ships, period. It's irresponsible not to do so. I would argue that not raising the budget to cover debt absolution is fine because, per Packrat, our obscene Strategy and the fact that we're a "winning" commodore who's making all the crews filthy rich is enough to keep them loyal. But we should raise it enough to keep all our ships sufficiently funded and not play too fast and loose. Gunman's quotes indicate that us turning over the sector in the best shape possible when our 3 years is up is beneficial. Expect at least some PC to refund to us. Your strategy of just buying ships and funding them from prizes makes us very dependent on rolls and if peace suddenly hits we are up shit creek without funding.
We do have insane stats, but those only help so much against 3 capital ships when we have zero. They get double multi-attacker penalties, for example, which means that two battleships vs our Endeavor get +8 to the roll which basically wipes out our Tactics advantage. And the fucking Scale problem.
As for PC, looking at the quest backlog real fast it seems that it's actually easier to get PC than wealth. We have significantly more PC than wealth after all, despite spending a lot more of it (or being penalized for it) and we have options to increase rate of PC gain. We've barely spent Wealth at all, except on investments and lifestyle, and we have far less. Given clarification from Packrat, maintaining a PC-bought capital ship and keeping it with us is a lot more viable.
Eh, I doubt it's going to more than 150 total and we almost have that. Certainly will if we succeed here AND if we get Captain Wilson the opportunity to look good (put her in the Endeavor for this attack). I don't think anyone in this quest is against us grabbing a share as soon as we possibly can, either, so that won't be a problem.
Those defenses are meant to deal with people who aren't Strouss. We can pump the Strat check to insane levels. Look at how we destroyed the outer system defenses in a single day. With more ships and support I doubt that the inner defenses will hold much longer.
The NASP is calling them rogue actors and is not supporting them here at all. This is the classic "why does Treason always prosper? Because if it prospers, none dare call it treason." The NASP is absolutely furious about this, no doubt, but if the Chuangers succeed in hurting us and breaking Imhotep loose they'll support the Chuangers. But if we bust up the Chuang fleet and crack their defenses, they'll wash their hands of them and likely sue for peace.
We do have insane stats, but those only help so much against 3 capital ships when we have zero. They get double multi-attacker penalties, for example, which means that two battleships vs our Endeavor get +8 to the roll which basically wipes out our Tactics advantage. And the fucking Scale problem.
As for PC, looking at the quest backlog real fast it seems that it's actually easier to get PC than wealth. We have significantly more PC than wealth after all, despite spending a lot more of it (or being penalized for it) and we have options to increase rate of PC gain. We've barely spent Wealth at all, except on investments and lifestyle, and we have far less. Given clarification from Packrat, maintaining a PC-bought capital ship and keeping it with us is a lot more viable.
Eh, I doubt it's going to more than 150 total and we almost have that. Certainly will if we succeed here AND if we get Captain Wilson the opportunity to look good (put her in the Endeavor for this attack). I don't think anyone in this quest is against us grabbing a share as soon as we possibly can, either, so that won't be a problem.
Those defenses are meant to deal with people who aren't Strouss. We can pump the Strat check to insane levels. Look at how we destroyed the outer system defenses in a single day. With more ships and support I doubt that the inner defenses will hold much longer.
The NASP is calling them rogue actors and is not supporting them here at all. This is the classic "why does Treason always prosper? Because if it prospers, none dare call it treason." The NASP is absolutely furious about this, no doubt, but if the Chuangers succeed in hurting us and breaking Imhotep loose they'll support the Chuangers. But if we bust up the Chuang fleet and crack their defenses, they'll wash their hands of them and likely sue for peace.
Satar
Xetares, Third Redeemer; World Drinker
- Location
- Sesh
I think you're forgetting to delineate between NASP sector command and the local commanders who jumped the gun on this one. Yes, NASP sector command would definitely take advantage of a troop pullback to wreak havoc in our systems, but we're not dealing with NASP sector command. We're dealing with a bunch of local commanders who've recklessly launched an offensive to massage their wounded pride.
Putting it simply, for them the marginal gain of ransacking Imhotep or even the entire sector is going to pale next to the loss of Chaung Mu. To use a chess analogy, they can't focus on taking rooks, bishops, and knights when their king is in check. We don't even have to make any headway against the planetary defenses or win a victory; that would be a nice bonus, but we just need appear enough of a threat. And if we do win, the threat of us launching fusion salvos at the undefended planet ought to be enough to bring the local commanders to the negotiating table. Basically it doesn't matter if they have the gun pointed at our fingers if we have a gun pointed to their heads. Our gun doesn't even need to have a bullet in the chamber; worst case scenario, we lure them back to their system and jump out, leaving it to NASP sector command to drill some sense in their men.
And I appreciate you, @Snowfire. It's good to be in the same quest again.
As I've mentioned above, victory doesn't necessarily mean crushing their three capital ships in battle. Victory could be taking Chaung Mu hostage and forcing them to jump back to system and negotiate an end to the crisis.
I agree that PC was easier to earn than Wealth in the early parts of this quest, but our circumstances have changed. Privateers and piracy is ebbing. We have the military capacity to launch raids now. From hereon out it seems to me that wealth will be easier to garner than PC, especially since increasing in rank and prominence means making more powerful enemies when our actions disrupt the status quo.
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[X] Harass. If you combine your ships with those of the newly arrived heavy cruiser squadron then you can try to pick apart the rogue fleet over Imhotep.
I just see greater political capital and wealth gain via taking the Battleships, while minimizing the damage done to the Sector itself. It also seems reasonable that we're not actually going to destroy or capture every ship above Imhotep, and that they're going to flee. One of the most likely places given what they've just done is to Chuan-Mu, so there's nothing saying we can't follow them back there, and likely there would be PC incentives to do just that via command.
Not raiding Chuang-Mu right now doesn't mean we automatically lose the chance.
I just see greater political capital and wealth gain via taking the Battleships, while minimizing the damage done to the Sector itself. It also seems reasonable that we're not actually going to destroy or capture every ship above Imhotep, and that they're going to flee. One of the most likely places given what they've just done is to Chuan-Mu, so there's nothing saying we can't follow them back there, and likely there would be PC incentives to do just that via command.
Not raiding Chuang-Mu right now doesn't mean we automatically lose the chance.
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- Location
- The United States
[X] Raid Chuang Mu, Again. You can force these battleships off Imhotep if you threaten their home system in greater force.
May this raid bring us eternal glory!
Also, I figure that if we are able to bring the system to heel before their fleet returns we can take their BCs for ourselves completely unscathed. I figure that they would be willing to stand down if they see that the lives of their families are at risk. It would be glorious!
May this raid bring us eternal glory!
Also, I figure that if we are able to bring the system to heel before their fleet returns we can take their BCs for ourselves completely unscathed. I figure that they would be willing to stand down if they see that the lives of their families are at risk. It would be glorious!
Chimeraguard
We do deserve to exist.
BBs. Chuang Mu has Battleships, not Battlecruisers.
About two weeks to prepare a raid. Week in transit. Some weeks reducing Chaung Mu defences - they're extensive, after all. A week for news to reach ships over Imhotep, and likely more.
A lot of time. Possibly enough for NASP reinforcements to reach Chaung Mu.
Remember, it is a loyal NASP member (Officially); It's a fleet over Imhotep that is a rogue actor.
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- Location
- The United States
Oops, my bad, my good sir.
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Oddly enough, when we raided those two CLs away from Chuang Mu we got 17 Wealth, but 26 PC. If we had Extravagant active that would've been 31 PC, almost double the wealth gain. When we captured the corvette and skiff and destroyed the other two, we got 15 Wealth but 17 PC (should be 20). When we captured the Sword, we ended up making 55 PC (same as our Wealth return, if the ships that helped us take it hadn't been temporarily captured we would've only gotten 37.5 wealth) and made out with another 34 PC due to killing the admiral, a strike cruiser, and two cutters. Even the smuggling stuff last turn earned us 32 PC but 22 wealth. The one time we've gotten major wealth but no PC was just now, when we looted a world, and we had options to get PC if we really wanted to. I think you're wrong here, especially once you take the 20% multiplier from Extravagant into account.
I don't think they'll be negotiating with us much, though. We can't really do much other than threaten planetary bombardment if those BBs show up; unless we had a capital ship and significant fleet of our own, they would almost certainly have the weight of fire to reasonably believe that they could destroy us and lift the siege. We would need some capital leverage in order to force their hand.
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- Location
- Somewhere in the stacks
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Satar
Xetares, Third Redeemer; World Drinker
- Location
- Sesh
That is....not a bad point, since I'd forgotten about the multipliers. Good catch! But I wonder if PC can react a point of saturation. It makes sense, doesn't it? If you keep winning victories you can earn more influence up to a point, but there are avenues of influence generation that would remain forever closed to you. Or otherwise going for the highest standard of living and winning will break the game even more than we've done already.
I may be mis-characterizing @Satar but I believe his argument is that we can threaten to ruin Chuang Mu. In return for regaining what is now a ruined world, they end up with one of their most wealthy and developed worlds in a similar or worse state. Launching some nukes and targeting the best spots to ruin the biosphere or kill as many as possible is going to be done faster than a conventional siege.