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Even Further Beyond [Complete]

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I am suddenly realizing that it is perhaps more accurate that Lady Winter had Thrice-Great. Lady Spring likely has the same equivelent that the Overlord of Spring would be allowed. Similarly Lord Fall likely has the Throne of Stars equivelent when he was destroying the Age of Summer.

All the Fates of the equiv of Thrice-Great for their age, they just win always because:

1. Their powers counter the previous age's. Diagram > Lore, Cultivation > Diagram, etc.
2. Fates.
3. Overlords not having literal aeons of experience at defending Ages.
 
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Shard said:
I am suddenly realizing that it is perhaps more accurate that Lady Winter had Thrice-Great. Lady Spring likely has the same equivelent that the Overlord of Spring would be allowed. Similarly Lord Fall likely has the Throne of Stars equivelent when he was destroying the Age of Summer.

All the Fates of the equiv of Thrice-Great for their age, they just win always because:

1. Their powers counter the previous age's. Diagram > Lore, Cultivation > Diagram, etc.
2. Fates.
3. Overlords not having literal aeons of experience at defending Ages.
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So what would counter cultivation? What if by not taking an actual universe like Jotunheim and Elysium we've given the fates the option of just targeting the Thriesis.
 
Changing vote.

[X] I'll Face Myself
[X] Strategic Complexion
[X] Open the Way
[X] Deliberation

I've been persuaded by the arguments that waiting on Truth and Palimpsest may be a better idea. And Strategic Complexion is the most interesting of the remaining options, involving as it does an adventure..

(Edit: Further changed for a strategic vote.)
 
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RedV said:
Does anyone remember a scene where Vengeful affected Nameless significantly? I remember we risked a Vengeful outbreak with Titanomachy, but nothing happened for Vengeful after that didn't happen.

Is it on the verge of an outbreak, like we had a outbreak of Spoiled after training? I'm not sure how it's affecting us so far- at least it is affecting Nameless' anti-Fate / Heroine agenda and all, but thanks to us not visiting the Exclusion Zone or the Court, we didn't get a chance to see it.

Should we attempt to get a BP via Vengeful by smashing the Vanes to see how it works? Or we could resurrect Atrius Vane and work out Vengeful on him. That could be pretty nice- information on how it works would be of use in mitigating it, and I'd like to see more of Nameless as the Avenger which seems to have been abandoned for this arc.
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Right now, it's causing Nameless to actually go through with the plan to have Aurelia sandpaper his personality just so he could spite Lich.
 
It will take Nameless an entire year with Suizhen to even have a good chance to get Truth diagrams. If we don't try to get more Truth stuff during this timeskip, than the chances of geting True incarnation or Azure Flare before the Heroine awakens become quite low.
 
I think that Diligence + Truth feels too passive. Grand Solipsist beasts are screwing up the Empire en masse to create an opportunity for the Heroine, most likely. Just accepting that feels like we are giving up the initiative here.

I mean, we do need both True Incarnation and Necromancer mastery to face the Heroine with degree of confidence, but it doesn't feel right to let our Empire fallow in the grip of nature. Why isn't Shen doing anything? Is he saving his forces for the final confrontation with Spring according to a plot plotted by Numair?

It is probably a good idea to let it lie if someone like Shen can ignore it, but why is he even ignoring it? I'm confused now. Is he already compromised?

Shard said:
I am suddenly realizing that it is perhaps more accurate that Lady Winter had Thrice-Great. Lady Spring likely has the same equivelent that the Overlord of Spring would be allowed. Similarly Lord Fall likely has the Throne of Stars equivelent when he was destroying the Age of Summer.

All the Fates of the equiv of Thrice-Great for their age, they just win always because:

1. Their powers counter the previous age's. Diagram > Lore, Cultivation > Diagram, etc.
2. Fates.
3. Overlords not having literal aeons of experience at defending Ages.
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Numair was quite a scrub Thrice Great if she really needed Dao Cleaving Yong Shen to kill the Overlord for her and couldn't kill him by respiring in his general direction. After all, there were no major breakthroughs in Diagram multipliers between end of Age of Truth and now that would cause her progress to be that slow that Diagram in general was a legit threat to her. Maybe Elvegekere had some mean FBs, I suppose, but she had two EFBs.

I think Numair was a pure Binary Magic practitioner because Thrice Great would be way too OP for Diagram civilisation in my mind. They'd fall before dedicated early Reality Formers, though perhaps Elvegekere was different due to his Throne of Stars.
 
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What is the additional Truth Diagram used for in that plan? I might be simply too tired atm, but I'm not seeing a qualitative addition. Unless you're saying we should craft a Magnum Opus with our additional essence?..
 
Also, Overgrowth farming is actually non-trivial, and we've seen how much Nameless with Spoiled hates spending time Cultivating. If you aren't Facing Yourself, how do you plan to get around that?
 
Wolfy said:
It involves Suizhen!
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But it ignores Xiaoling! :p

We're going to bring Suizhen with us one way or another, it's not like we're not going to drag her along after going to her ancestral lands.

UDwarf said:
Also, Overgrowth farming is actually non-trivial, and we've seen how much Nameless with Spoiled hates spending time Cultivating. If you aren't Facing Yourself, how do you plan to get around that?
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Like with everything else that doesn't involve Cultivation, Pinky, by increasing the Veil of Maya and making killing monsters fun!
 
UDwarf said:
Also, Overgrowth farming is actually non-trivial, and we've seen how much Nameless with Spoiled hates spending time Cultivating. If you aren't Facing Yourself, how do you plan to get around that?
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Where did we see that?

As Rihaku has previously clarified, Nameless doesn't have a terrible work ethic even when Spoiled is taken into consideration. He just isn't extremely diligent.

Nameless' doesn't need to spend ~80 hours a week on it like he did for some of his previous most intense activity. Also traveling around at what for him is could be a leisurely pace hardly qualifies as hard work.
 
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UBR said:
Where did we see that?

As Rihaku has previously clarified, Nameless doesn't have a terrible work ethic even when Spoiled is taken into consideration. He just isn't extremely diligent.

Nameless' doesn't need to spend ~80 hours a week on it like he did for some of his previous most intense activity. Also traveling around at what for him is could be a leisurely pace hardly qualifies as hard work.
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I was going by this bit:
Rihaku said:
Well, if you're looking at the example I posted above, there is a very high chance Nameless will proc Spoiled (or just burn out from working too hard) if he Cultivates / forges at that pace relentlessly.
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However, that was discussing three years of devoted work, and I guess we would only be putting in two. On the other other hand, Titanomachy triggered Spoiled after a year (less?) of devoted Cultivating, and I would expect dealing with Overgrowth beasts to be at least as annoying as typical Cultivating. And, of course, with Veil always active Spoiled is somewhat worse. So while I'm not sure about it, I wouldn't rely on not losing multiple weeks to Spoiled in the middle of a ten month training time, especially if we plan to turn up Veil of Maya to make ourselves more interested in it.
 
UDwarf said:
I was going by this bit:

However, that was discussing three years of devoted work, and I guess we would only be putting in two. On the other other hand, Titanomachy triggered Spoiled after a year (less?) of devoted Cultivating, and I would expect dealing with Overgrowth beasts to be at least as annoying as typical Cultivating. And, of course, with Veil always active Spoiled is somewhat worse. So while I'm not sure about it, I wouldn't rely on not losing multiple weeks to Spoiled in the middle of a ten month training time, especially if we plan to turn up Veil of Maya to make ourselves more interested in it.
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That is not a good example to use. It is not just a question of whether it was two or three years. That example had Nameless work at a very high pace. Far more so than a conventional full time job.

Why would you expect dealing with Overgrowth beasts to be as annoying as cultivating? Nameless can probably win such fights in less than a millisecond. The vast majority of time would be spent strolling around keeping a look out for beasts to absorb (if that wasn't the case, we would progress at a ridiculous pace and most likely wouldn't need to spend much time on it).
 
Considering that Overgrowth allowed Zang Kong to advance so far, it is entirely possible that there are Titanic beasts in its depths. Mastery of space should not be understimated. Overgrowth can be far more greater than even the entire empire.
 
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DkArthas said:
Considering that Overgrowth allowed Zang Kong to advance so far, it is entirely possible that there are Titanic beasts in its depths. Mastery of space should not be understimated
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Beasts of basic titanic strength would also be trivial for Nameless to defeat and stronger beasts would also mean more essence to drain (and thus less time needed to spend on it), so that might just be a good thing.

Where was it said that it was specifically the Overgrowth which allowed him to advance that far?
 
Mhm. I might be wrong. I am assuming that he was at least Titanic level when he created the overgrowth to get the cultivation materials to advance further.
 
UBR said:
That is not a good example to use. It is not just a question of whether it was two or three years. That example had Nameless work at a very high pace. Far more so than a conventional full time job.

Why would you expect dealing with Overgrowth beasts to be as annoying as cultivating? Nameless can probably win such fights in less than a millisecond. The vast majority of time would be spent strolling around keeping a look out for beasts to absorb (if that wasn't the case, we would progress at a ridiculous pace and most likely wouldn't need to spend much time on it).
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I don't actually think you're right about the Cultivation pace, but even if you are, again, look at Titanomachy as a corresponding example where we devoted time to something and then Spoiled blew up on us.

The effort... This may be correct, fair. Hadn't considered that. I doubt eating Essence is going to be a simple procedure, though — I would expect (for balance reasons) it to take time and likely effort. Not sure of that, though.
 
UBR said:
Where was it said that it was specifically the Overgrowth which allowed him to advance that far?
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I don't remember any direct evidence - would have to go through the index to find if there is any - but these parts support the idea at least indirectly?
Rihaku said:
The border fortress of Yongshan is not so cosmopolitan as Yonghai, but it serves a role just as crucial - policing the Great Overgrowth of Eastern Kong. Zang Kong has seen fit to render the vast majority of his territory an overrun wilderness, teeming with all manner of horrific and mythological monstrosity. He hopes to find a creature he can render into materials useful for his Cultivation...
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Rihaku said:
As my creation of the Overgrowth was Fated, giving them the excuse they required to declare an end to this Age. But even though my 'choice' was limited, I do not regret my actions. I cannot be anything other than what I am
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Now, how did he actually create the overgrowth? Were we ever told?

Through space? He opened a portal or something to another place? Or was it the effect of his emantation.
 
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UDwarf said:
I don't actually think you're right about the Cultivation pace, but even if you are, again, look at Titanomachy as a corresponding example where we devoted time to something and then Spoiled blew up on us.

The effort... This may be correct, fair. Hadn't considered that. I doubt eating Essence is going to be a simple procedure, though — I would expect (for balance reasons) it to take time and likely effort. Not sure of that, though.
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That example was pointed out as being high paced and Nameless have consistently been spending a lot of time working before that (as can be seen in the quote below). Titanomancy also had him working at a high pace.

The balancing factor for absorption is the need for a target to steal from as well as the immense cost of getting that power (an EFB, a ridiculously powerful artifact and a Truth spell slot!). We already had the means to slowly gather energy.
Rihaku said:
He's not lazy, he's just not supernaturally motivated. Nameless has been working 80+ hour weeks for 5+ subjective years. Yeah, he doesn't need to sleep, but work is mentally exhausting.
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Unelemental said:
I don't remember any direct evidence - would have to go through the index to find if there is any - but these parts support the idea at least indirectly?
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Well, Kong doing it in the hope that it would help with his cultivation is a very different statement from it being the main reason that he managed to reach that high. It does not at all seem implausible to me that Kong would create the Overgrowth even if he only thought that there was a small chance that he would be able to use it to increase his cultivation.
 
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DkArthas said:
Now, how did he actually create the overgrowth? Were we ever told?

Through space? He opened a portal or something to another place? Or was it the effect of his emantation.
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I reckon it was some unusual interaction of manifesting his Endless Sky within the real world, so yes, it might have been his Emanation/Extrusion/Incarnation. He wouldn't have done this if he could have just generated monsters in his inner worlds - he's reasonable and efficient, not actively malicious.

UBR said:
Well, Kong doing it in the hope that it would help with his cultivation is a very different statement from it being the main reason that he managed to reach that high. It does not at all seem implausible to me that Kong would create the Overgrowth even if he only thought that there was a small chance that he would be able to use it to increase his cultivation.
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Note that creating the Overgrowth gave the Fates free reign to end the Age and send the Heroine, so I don't think he would have done it just for a small chance.
 
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Unelemental said:
Note that creating the Overgrowth gave the Fates free reign to end the Age and send the Heroine, so I don't think he would have done it just for a small chance.
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Did he even know that before making that decision? Even if he did know, did his dao allow him to make any other choice ("though my 'choice' was limited, I do not regret my actions. I cannot be anything other than what I am")?

Also, while he might have had reason to think that creating the Overgrowth would come with a risk of intervention from the Fates, limiting himself to only morally upstanding means would also be risky, since that could slow his growth and since the Fates might eventually get some other excuse to intervene.
 
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It's pretty clear that the Overgrowth is substantially similar to Coldbriar.

Expecting it to be exponentially larger than the interior of East Kong would not be unwise.
 
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