Even Further Beyond [Complete]

[X] I will face myself
[X] Strategic Complexion
[X] Amplification
[X] Open the Way

I feel like diligent will only be a temporary thing, take this update for example, Nameless can easily do a lot more but this is what he can motivate himself to do.
 
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I mean, we need to reinforce the Empire while either mastering the Necromancer for a protracted anti-Heroine offensive suite (we don't have enough time to FB relevant esoteric Diagrams) or get True Incarnation for the Fated Love Immunity before Heroine wakes up or she'll get shunted into 5000 year training or make us love her.
Ah. I feel like we should prioritize dealing with Spoiled over the empire. If the empire collapses, we're more likely to be forced into doing something by the Doom, and thus more likely to be able to drop it before the Heroine pops up, as I see it. Additionally, I feel like getting rid of Spoiled will increase our productivity over the next ten months, hopefully enough that we can get in at least one more of these even while being useful.

Thus I'm hoping we can drop Spoiled and pick up True Incarnation now, and go on to master the Scepter with our new and improved work ethic, then Cultivate, doing whatever we are forced to to prevent a complete collapse of the Empire so we can trigger All Paths by losing time when it really matters. Incarnation plus Cultivation should let us survive the first encounter with the Heroine, and we can try to use the Scepter to kill her then and there. If that fails, we should at least be able to drain her base, and hopefully that will get us enough time to build up what we need to finish her off.
 
Ah. I feel like we should prioritize dealing with Spoiled over the empire. If the empire collapses, we're more likely to be forced into doing something by the Doom, and thus more likely to be able to drop it before the Heroine pops up, as I see it. Additionally, I feel like getting rid of Spoiled will increase our productivity over the next ten months, hopefully enough that we can get in at least one more of these even while being useful.

Thus I'm hoping we can drop Spoiled and pick up True Incarnation now, and go on to master the Scepter with our new and improved work ethic, then Cultivate, doing whatever we are forced to to prevent a complete collapse of the Empire so we can trigger All Paths by losing time when it really matters. Incarnation plus Cultivation should let us survive the first encounter with the Heroine, and we can try to use the Scepter to kill her then and there. If that fails, we should at least be able to drain her base, and hopefully that will get us enough time to build up what we need to finish her off.
The Empire contains our family, Suizhen's family, Xiaoling's family, etc.

I'd rather not have it collapse, and I want to meet Yong Shen to gain relevant strategic knowledge on Empire and know what the fuck his plan is so we do not mess up his plan and start shit.

I also think that deliberately waiting out the death of the billions in the Empire merely to liberate oneself of a Drawback is monstrous in way that people want to avoid with Nameless.
 
The Empire contains our family, Suizhen's family, Xiaoling's family, etc.

I'd rather not have it collapse, and I want to meet Yong Shen to gain relevant strategic knowledge on Empire and know what the fuck his plan is so we do not mess up his plan and start shit.

I also think that deliberately waiting out the death of the billions in the Empire merely to liberate oneself of a Drawback is monstrous in way that people want to avoid with Nameless.
I don't actually want to have the Empire collapse, just get near enough that we're actually forced to act to prevent it. On the other hand, you may have noticed I'm relatively good at amoral plans, so discarding this as yet another one may be reasonable, if you want.
 
Ah. I feel like we should prioritize dealing with Spoiled over the empire. If the empire collapses, we're more likely to be forced into doing something by the Doom, and thus more likely to be able to drop it before the Heroine pops up, as I see it. Additionally, I feel like getting rid of Spoiled will increase our productivity over the next ten months, hopefully enough that we can get in at least one more of these even while being useful.
The QM's taken a fairly even hand to Spoiled so far. We've been able to mitigate it consistently by using Xiaoling's money when ours isn't enough. Do you think that won't be enough in the future?

If the empire starts falling apart, we'll likely lose our lines of credit. Then we'll be in prime position to get rid of Spoiled - through All Paths, because it'll be a real drawback.
 
Depending on farming the overgrowth is too risky, if for someone it does not work we will have no way to go for immortal awakening in a timely manner. Amplification gives us a a fallback plan. It's not a good idea putting all our eggs in a single basket.

Form of Balance merely increases our bodily action, seriously, we have enough power, we need estoric now, this does nothing for that.

Might or even amplification is a far superior choice.
Adhoc vote count started by DkArthas on May 8, 2018 at 10:06 PM, finished with 242 posts and 68 votes.
 
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The QM's taken a fairly even hand to Spoiled so far. We've been able to mitigate it consistently by using Xiaoling's money when ours isn't enough. Do you think that won't be enough in the future?

If the empire starts falling apart, we'll likely lose our lines of credit. Then we'll be in prime position to get rid of Spoiled - through All Paths, because it'll be a real drawback.
I'm pretty sure Spoiled isn't a Drawback, it's just our personality — Heroic Passions is a Drawback. Either way, though, I expect we'll keep the personality trait, even if it doesn't erupt in six weeks of uselessness like it did that time.

I don't care that much about the episodes, though, they're just a month and a bit of time lost, and while that's relevant it's not the most significant part. The real problem I have is that Nameless isn't as motivated as he could be. Right now he isn't lacking in time to do all these things, he's just lacking the motivation, and getting rid of Spoiled is how we would go about changing that.
 
Man, this vote would be way easier if not for the implications of the Empire destabilizing; The very existence of Strategic Complexion implies that interfering would be at least a relatively worthwhile development, and given the dissolution of all known empires is our most vulnerable weakness thus far, stopping this from becoming a general failure cascade is worthwhile. However, doing this is going to necessarily delay at least some of our Goals; I prefer combining it with Extra Diligence for it still allows us to exploit the Overgrowth and it is at least some action against Spoiled. I'll Face Myself would leave us with neither the necromantic mastery nor True Diagrams when voted in combination, so it's the worst in a strategical sense. I understand voting for it even despite this though.

While I'm here, let me shill Amplification too. People have very liberal interpretations on what constitutes a "bodily action", and I legitimately don't know why it is being chosen. We certainly have enough combat power, and Scepter training has been shown as mostly meditative in this update, and any Diagram research would be as well. Is it just to look even prettier? I'm sure Aurelia loves us just the way we are.

Comparatively, Amplification is either a good future investment thanks to Chronoreactor, and/or may allow us to supercharge our stages, with may be relevant both in combat and outside of it; depending on how the bonus manifests itself, it may either a numerical boost or an enhancement to the benefits of the stages, like more casting power or more blood potency. It also saves us BP, something quite scarce at the moment and something we should not take for granted. It's our most economical option by far.

I feel like the easy option, at least in character, is to not change. It's presumably easier to keep doing what you're doing, and ignore the fact that you should be reworking how you think, even if it's not the right thing to do. On the other hand, people could easily disagree with me here.

I mean, only one of the options has no effort on Nameless's part whatsoever. It may be the best option in a long term sense even, just not one of internal victory, which I think is important. Do we need Aurelia besides us to police our every vice and mode of thought, or can we actually gain some self-control and learn to restrain ourselves independently? It sets a bad precedent, especially because she doesn't even want this. We can't put Aurelia over our shoulder forever.

I wanted independence back when it was an option. Now that it really isn't, and we're bound to Aurelia forever, I want to take advantage of that. We know she's loyal to us, we invested our Oath artifact (plus a BP which we would have gotten otherwise) and a significant bonus — one which would have been worth a BP wherever it was applied, at least roughly — in making our relationship as strong as it can be. We've invested quite a lot in it, let's at least reap some of the reward from that investment.

Aurelia's competency and the mastery of her Ring are already quite the reward for me, annoyed as I am at the Oath winning, trusting her with our very cognition is something I find unnecessary. This kind of seems sunk-cost fallacy to me.

We didn't since her loyalty was 5, not 8 iirc.

Goddammit, I am now positively miffed.
 
[X] Strategic Complexion
[X] I'll Face Myself
[X] Open the Way
[X] Beyond Palimpsest - Form of Balance


In short, I wanna go talk to Grandpa and get titan lessons from him. To maximize these, we get our wife to condition some practicality into us and boost our physical competence as much as possible. Friction between teacher and student reduces efficiency, and Yong Shen is holistic and physical-oriented. Open the Way is to help us with our sales pitch: we can effectively be anywhere at any time, so whatever's going on can be our problem Right Now. Immediate solutions are a hell of a drug.
 
Aurelia's competency and the mastery of her Ring are already quite the reward for me, annoyed as I am at the Oath winning, trusting her with our very cognition is something I find unnecessary. This kind of seems sunk-cost fallacy to me.
The thing is, we haven't gains anything we wouldn't have gotten from not swearing the Oath. That sort of unshakeable trust has its costs, but we've committed to it now. It also has benefits, though, and if we want to change our personality, a therapist who we will always trust, who we know has the best in mind, and who is impossibly charismatic is the best we could ask for. Therapy is a thing, and we have everything set up for it — use that!
 
Mhm, I have no idea how long our spoiled episodes would have lasted if Liefang didn't cut us off.

We are far more powerful now.
 
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[X] Extra Diligent
[X] Strategic Complexion
[X] Amplification
[X] Open the Way

Might as well give Amplification a boost. After all, FB/EFB Palimpsest were Half/Full Elf based, and we have a stupidly strong in with them at this point, so we might want to save up some more Beyond Points before commiting to Palimpsest anyway.
 
[X] Extra Diligent
[X] Strategic Complexion
[X] Amplification
[X] Open the Way
 
[X] Extra Diligent
[X] Strategic Complexion
[X] Amplification
[X] Open the Way
Adhoc vote count started by Conjured Blade on May 8, 2018 at 10:20 PM, finished with 244 posts and 68 votes.
 
The thing is, we haven't gains anything we wouldn't have gotten from not swearing the Oath. That sort of unshakeable trust has its costs, but we've committed to it now. It also has benefits, though, and if we want to change our personality, a therapist who we will always trust, who we know has the best in mind, and who is impossibly charismatic is the best we could ask for. Therapy is a thing, and we have everything set up for it — use that!

I mean, I can't see why therapy sessions would be Oath-exclusive; It's quite possible the Oath and Lovey-Dovey had literally no mechanical benefit. Can't commit to something that hasn't even changed anything. Therapy is indeed a very helpful and healthy thing and it's already a good step that Nameless recognizes part of his issues, but is it the analogy that is most applicable here? Therapists don't have access to the level of persuasion and positive reinforcement that Aurelia has, something that reaches preternatural capabilities despite their natural origins. As Aurelia herself said, the most important part is for Nameless himself to believe that his changes are true and decisive, not merely the change in of itself. He doesn't need to just change, he needs the mental fortitude to change and keep changing; to do otherwise is basically outsourcing our moral compass to Aurelia, which I think is a disservice to both of them.
 
If the empire starts falling apart, we'll likely lose our lines of credit. Then we'll be in prime position to get rid of Spoiled - through All Paths, because it'll be a real drawback.

You have Aurelia's money. She is your sugar mommy...

[X] Extra Diligent
[X] Strategic Complexion
[X] Amplification
[X] Open the Way

Might as well give Amplification a boost. After all, FB/EFB Palimpsest were Half/Full Elf based, and we have a stupidly strong in with them at this point, so we might want to save up some more Beyond Points before commiting to Palimpsest anyway.

Hm, I don't think the voters will be inclined to spend BP on FB Palimpsest, but there are always plenty of good places to put BP, since you're a Diagram Mage!
 
Hmm. Palimpsest or no, we need to look into ways to either ditch or fully subvert the Eyes at some future point - else they're probably multiple stages worth of detriment against Kong. Subvert would be nicer of course, since we get to keep the benefits and can potentially share our insights with Suizhen.

By the same token though, she's reasonably likely to pick up some anti-subversion measures just on the strength of her narrative, so we want to hold off on commiting too much down that path at the moment - the Heroine's a more immediate threat anyway.
 
I mean, I can't see why therapy sessions would be Oath-exclusive; It's quite possible the Oath and Lovey-Dovey had literally no mechanical benefit. Can't commit to something that hasn't even changed anything. Therapy is indeed a very helpful and healthy thing and it's already a good step that Nameless recognizes part of his issues, but is it the analogy that is most applicable here? Therapists don't have access to the level of persuasion and positive reinforcement that Aurelia has, something that reaches preternatural capabilities despite their natural origins. As Aurelia herself said, the most important part is for Nameless himself to believe that his changes are true and decisive, not merely the change in of itself. He doesn't need to just change, he needs the mental fortitude to change and keep changing; to do otherwise is basically outsourcing our moral compass to Aurelia, which I think is a disservice to both of them.
Therapy isn't Oath-exclusive, but it definitely gains from Oath (and thus is probably a relatively efficient action, because the Oath is something we've effectively sunk 2 BP into and is therefore probably reasonably beneficial when it's beneficial) --- having a stronger and unbendable bond makes for some pretty strong leverage for a therapist. I don't feel like the fact that Aurelia, with her charisma, is really good at therapy makes it unfair for her to do it, and I think Nameless can figure out when to change. In fact, here we're seeing him decide to change. The problem is that actually changing your habits of mind is hard, and it's especially hard when the habit in question is something which is undeniably attractive like Spoiled, and only worse when the habit is one which makes it hard to exert significant amounts of effort at once, again like Spoiled.

I think the mental fortitude to change on his own is something Nameless can only learn from managing to do it, and seeing the rewards, convincing himself that yes, changes really can be good. As it is now, he hasn't really managed to shift his personality except the jump between worlds, and that was a pretty solidly positive shift. If we want to be able to be motivated to change in the future, we need examples of doing it successfully and valuably now. Facing ourself is the only way I can see to actually do that, rather than just exploiting our flaws to put off the problems farther into the future.

(Of course, I'll Face Myself is far enough behind it doesn't really matter, but I will continue to argue for it regardless.)
 
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Don't be like that, man! Argument strength is a big deal, and our two forerunners don't have that much in-depth support.
Argument strength is nice and all, but it's not going to outweigh 17 votes, and that's the current difference between I'll Face Myself and the current second place, Pursuit of the Truth. 19 votes to hit the top, Extra Diligent. Unless we get some really strong devil's advocation, and I really don't expect much there, there's just no chance. I'll keep arguing, but I very much doubt it'll get anywhere.
Adhoc vote count started by UDwarf on May 8, 2018 at 11:06 PM, finished with 253 posts and 70 votes.
 
[X] Pursuit of the Truth
[x]Strategic Complexion

[X] Open the Way
[X] Amplification

Adhoc vote count started by Conjured Blade on May 8, 2018 at 11:21 PM, finished with 256 posts and 72 votes.
 
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