Even Further Beyond [Complete]

We shouldn't have picked the Verminlord as a mentor then.
You are free to plan to manipulate enemies, political opponents, non-friends, etc. It's better not to try such tactics on friends tho. Being conversant in manipulation is not a reason, or an obligation, or an excuse to use it to emotionally destabilise friends for personal gain.

Just like knowing how to steal money from bank accounts doesn't mean you do it to rich friends, for example.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by Wolfy on Mar 25, 2018 at 9:18 AM, finished with 11129 posts and 33 votes.
 
In ways that make him stronger than other millennia old Diagram super mages? It's not like we are looking for one specific slot to fill out.

Being stronger at fighting multiple mid level cultivators using resources he's stockpiled for thousands of years isn't particularly useful for us. Being able to control very large armies of constructs, for example, isn't that useful for us, as we can't afford the time to make them.

The things that make you good at killing cities in Southern Vane probably aren't the things that make you good at Cultivation.

Of course, the exception could be if his abilities here reflect that he has an amazing Stone Grand Diagram that allows mass scale transmutation of a grade well above Greater Refining (Xylitemmeral's Greatest Refining?). That could be something that was very valuable to us and well worth the trip and the risk.

If we're hoping to get something like that though, we'd be much better off using the Pearl on ourselves. Without it we're probably just not tall enough to ride this attraction.

We were at low Dao Cleaving effectiveness even without Beyond Ego Barrier of any kind merely with Archsmith option though?

We aren't. We're at low Spiritual Chrysalis, with an across the board half stage upgrade to mid Spiritual Chrysalis thanks to the improved Beyond Ego Barrier. It's the Heart Rune's extra bonus (described as against Cultivators) that gets us the extra three quarter stage bonus to reach mid Dao Cleaving. It's the artifacts that we made as part of the Archsmith option that give us that bonus 1.25 rank.
 
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Still saying the best uses for the pearl when using it for ourselves is through Artificing or waiting for a full stage skip to Peak Soul Chrysalis.
 
This was not worth 0.4 Beyond Points & several objective weeks of time.

[X] Consume Personally
[X] Investigate Xylitemmerral
 
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This was not worth 0.4 Beyond Points & several objective weeks.

Two objective weeks. That has also apparently gained us knowledge of an extra lich, which we might be able to use to get something. It also gave us information that we might be able to combine with the knowledge we gained to continue with the original plan from last update, but that's so far behind in votes that it's basically impossible.

But no, it doesn't appear that Priceless Treasures, even on a good roll, are particularly relevant to us, or that Mastermind Point expenditure is worthwhile. That's useful to us, as it tells us that dungeon diving is probably pointless, as is most scamming. We can use this to inform future votes.
 
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I feel my point on how we can go from Beyond Peak Organ Refinement to Peak Soul Chrysalis with ease is being ignored.
 
Underestimating any of the liches, most definitely an 'archterrorist', just because we have some relevant immunities and a fancy way of talking is a bad idea!

People seem to be banking a lot on blue text but we really have no idea what it does to liches. As I've said before, Baenlixnaire could do it and he seemed more a pariah than an overlich.

As for immunity to Diagram Spells- as the old saying goes, being immune to direct telekinesis doesn't protect you from falling rocks. Liches are canny old bastards, assuming they can be beaten easily by a single trick or two is a very dangerous gamble.

Any fight we get into will be much safer with the strongest member of our group even stronger. This in turn lets us grab more materials relevant to leveling our subordinates up further. The fact our lieutenant mechanics drag our companions up with us anyway is icing on the cake.
 
I'll note again - if you guys are primarily interested in Cultivation multiplier spells, it is likely that Xylitemmerral will be a relatively poor source of those compared to the average lich, as he's much more kitted out for full combat. He may have spells useful in warfare or spells that present exotic attack vectors, but you haven't even learned Llewyn's yet! Trying to get both Xylite and the lich here could well be too greedy, so consider which one you value more. This is not a small decision. It may be theoretically possible for you guys to get both, but you should definitely not bank on it. The time cost of traveling to and from Xylitemmerral's siege is also not insignificant; you have already spent two weeks scamming and gathering information. Most of the information you've gathered has been on the Bleak Ravens, but most of it is also time-sensitive in one way or another.

More relevantly, even if you do manage to get to both Xylite and the Bleak Ravens lich before they are extinguished, you do not really have the BP to Beyond many spells, so the marginal benefit could end up low for what you've invested.

Whatever resolution occurs with the Bleak Ravens without your assistance might see the Lich consumed or destroyed in one form or another. You simply don't know since all you have is rumor and hearsay.

As for Consume Personally vs Give to Suizhen or Xiaoling, consider that you have a personal x6 multiplier while they only have x4 multipliers. Even without your world-striding talent they would cultivate slower than you. If you are committed to investing in your lieutenants - as you already have with Xiaoling - then the extra Loyalty the option gives is valuable as well. If you pick up more multipliers, consuming the Orb now could well very only buy you a few weeks of subjective time as your Cultivation speed ramps up again.

You could also split the difference and sell it to cultivate everyone's growth down the line.
 
[X] Save It
[X] Confront the Bleak Ravens

Convinced by Rihaku!

Offensive Diagram really isn't useful for us, what we want from Diagram, are:

1. Multipliers.
2. Esoteric Effects.
3. FINDING THE HEROINE.
 
[X] Save It
[X] Confront the Bleak Ravens

My preferred vote anyway.

I'll note again - if you guys are primarily interested in Cultivation multiplier spells, it is likely that Xylitemmerral will be a relatively poor source of those compared to the average lich, as he's much more kitted out for full combat.

I suspect that much of the player base doesn't really want to cultivate or be a 'muscle wizard', and instead wants to go all in on Diagram Magic. If Diagram Magic is an end in itself and the primary form of magic that Nameless uses, then going after direct attack spells is pretty essential for them. It's a bet that (Further) Beyond versions are transformatively potent enough that they overcome the usual power limitations of Diagram magic.
 
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[X] Confront the Bleak Ravens
[X] Consume Personally

Rihaku makes a point about the relevant specialties of the liches involved. If the Bleak Ravens are colluding with the lich, or even going after it for treasure, or seeking to stabilize their patriarch with it's assistance or the help of some artifact it'll benefit us also.
 
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Diagram Magic is so much cooler can cultivation. Too bad it's not a viable route to win with.

[X] Save It
[X] Confront the Bleak Ravens
 
Diagram Magic is so much cooler can cultivation. Too bad it's not a viable route to win with.

I suspect that's largely because Cultivation has had approximately no screen time and very few votes about what direction to take it, as opposed to the multiple choices relating to Diagram Magic, so we know very little about what we can do with it.

As seen by the Bleak Ravens, there seem to be all sorts of nifty tricks that we can develop from it at higher Cultivation stages, and those nifty tricks are likely to be far more powerful than a Diagram Mage's equivilent - for example I suspect that the Bleak Raven's Reality Forming sect Master may be a better diviner and teleporter than any diagram magus that has ever lived. Cultivators may get a fewer tricks each, but their tricks are transcendently more powerful.
 
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Wondering about what would have happened if we'd also taken Trebly-Bound+Reincarnation.

Might've been quite interesting, the ultimate greediest build, with the horrific anti-synergy between being a Half-Elf and Heroic Passions, but ultimately hilarious amounts of potential (Thrice-Great+Reincarnation).
 
This was not worth 0.4 Beyond Points & several objective weeks of time.

[X] Consume Personally
[X] Investigate Xylitemmerral

I'll also note, the last vote was very close, if there had been moderately more arguments for the other side that could well have tipped the scales since it had more omake power. Given the benefits and drawbacks enumerated in the vote options, you guys could well have easily predicted the outcome if you are unhappy with it. Valuable information, and some resources, were gained at the cost of time. It is unfortunate that you guys rolled unspectacularly for the most important Treasure check (the first one), but you were lucky enough to gain a decent Treasure nonetheless.

I informed everyone the state of arguments and which vote was in the lead; discussion had wound down and I had time, so the vote was closed. Any single debater could have altered the outcome.

[X] Save It
[X] Confront the Bleak Ravens

Convinced by Rihaku!

Offensive Diagram really isn't useful for us, what we want from Diagram, are:

1. Multipliers.
2. Esoteric Effects.
3. FINDING THE HEROINE.

Well, Xylite can almost definitely help you get 2), he's just not as great for 1). If you are looking for souped-up Diagram spells to Go Beyond with and employ to help make sure your killing of the Heroine sticks, he might be your guy. If you're looking for Cultivation speed boosts, he probably won't have as many of those.
 
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