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Even Further Beyond [Complete]

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Alectai said:
What it boils down to is that I feel if we're going to poke the Crows, we should use the Pearl ourselves. If we're going after Xyl, we should empower Suizen and see if her cheat-like power can give us a greater edge, while also securing her loyalty.
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Or we can greet the angry Lich and hit the Ravens one after another, with the increased movement speed from the Pearl hopefully giving us some leeway.

*Maybe if we get a nice artifact or spell from the angry Lich, we'd be able to safely confront the Sect leader!
 
Corripere said:
Or we can greet the angry Lich and hit the Ravens one after another, with the increased movement speed from the Pearl hopefully giving us some leeway.
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Isn't the primary bottleneck for our strategic speed our ability to cast?

And Soul Chrysalis doesn't augment that until you've broken through it.
 
Rihaku said:
Not worried about Zang Kong's schemes? The Monster of Utility wields foresight like a scythe; the Elder Beast of Reason nurtures plots within plots... wouldn't you sleep easier knowing Zang Kong has had no vector whatsoever by which to get his hooks into yourself or your lieutenants, no matter how unlikely?
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Or, maybe it's already too late. Maybe he's already got our bodyguard (and future concubine?) in his clutches, maybe he's peering at us through those azure orbs like Sauron at his Palantir, maybe if you stare too long into her eyes he stares back, maybe this is our last chance to gouge out those vile jellies and free both of us from his clutches.

...

A much more likely explanation is that it's just an advertisement, like that proverbial free first hit of heroin. "I have the best toys, come join me in my murder jungle for more of the good stuff."
 
[X] Save It
[X] Confront the Bleak Ravens

Using the pearl now is just wasteful. We just have to take a trip to a richer city after we finishes this adventure and then we can sell it and greatly accelerate our cultivation, not just for the next half stage, but for the half a dozen times we will likely go from early to peak Soul Chrysalis.

vali said:
Or, maybe it's already too late. Maybe he's already got our bodyguard (and future concubine?) in his clutches, maybe he's peering at us through those azure orbs like Sauron at his Palantir, maybe if you stare too long into her eyes he stares back, maybe this is our last chance to gouge out those vile jellies and free both of us from his clutches.

...

A much more likely explanation is that it's just an advertisement, like that proverbial free first hit of heroin. "I have the best toys, come join me in my murder jungle for more of the good stuff."
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Why even take the risk when we could just trade it for cultivation resources useful for Soul Chrysalis and Dao Seeking instead?
 
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Alectai said:
Isn't the primary bottleneck for our strategic speed our ability to cast?
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I remember Rihaku saying somewhere that the best way to increase strategic movement speed now would be to cultivate, since it enhances the speed between teleports. Nevertheless, I'm beginning to get keen on a plan that involves taking the angry Lich's notes/artifact diplomatically/forcefully and then using those to beat down the Sect Leader.
 
Alectai said:
What kind of Artifact could we make if we decided to expend the Pearl on forging one?

Like, admittedly, fighting at Combat Rank 4.75 means that we're basically invincible within Dao Cleaving and might be about to out-fight the master of the Crows if he's still hurting, but I'm not certain if we need 4.75 if we're going to fight someone who makes their primary focus an area that we can bitchslap thanks to our Force Diagram. At the very least, we're physically stronger than even a theoretical Further Beyond Might can match, his diagram magic is a non-issue to us, and while the Crown is potentially dangerous to us, if it fires zappy bolts of magic, it probably counts as something we can dispel and mitigate.

What it boils down to is that I feel if we're going to poke the Crows, we should use the Pearl ourselves. If we're going after Xyl, we should empower Suizen and see if her cheat-like power can give us a greater edge, while also securing her loyalty.
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Half power artifact suggests using it on something that doesn't affect our multipliers directly. I'd use it to get rid of Spoiled. Some banner or icon of Iron Discipline that brings up all the hard lessons our parents tried to instill in us while we weren't paying attention.

Also, a discipline artifact sounds pretty useful in case we end up with that Fell crown thingy that drives artificers extra-insane.
 
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vali said:
Or, maybe it's already too late. Maybe he's already got our bodyguard (and future concubine?) in his clutches, maybe he's peering at us through those azure orbs like Sauron at his Palantir, maybe if you stare too long into her eyes he stares back, maybe this is our last chance to gouge out those vile jellies and free both of us from his clutches.

...

A much more likely explanation is that it's just an advertisement, like that proverbial free first hit of heroin. "I have the best toys, come join me in my murder jungle for more of the good stuff."
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Yeah.

Like, Suizen getting it isn't a serious risk--because if anyone's getting tracked anyway, it's her. Anyone else it's a potential hook from the Titan of Foresight.

As I said, Suizen getting it is a very good option at making our Lackeys increasingly relevant (Half Soul Chrysalis + Eyes of Kong probably now generating Combat Power bonuses), but if we plan to hit the Ravens, we should take it for ourselves--it should let us fight the Reality Forming expert at that point (Especially if he's hurting and freshly broken through) and shit on his Dao Cleaving buddies in the meantime.

So if we're going to poke the mobile oppression palace, I would say we use it on Suizen, because it makes her stronger, improves her loyalty, and gets us the mystery box that is the Eyes of Kong upgraded (And it's probably her cheat power anyway)

If we're going to poke the Ravens, we use it ourselves or hang onto it as leverage. Certainly, if he's just using this place to recover, we could get him to fuck off with something that would probably immediately complete his recovery, in exchange for having a monopoly on this site--which we can leverage to get the Lich inside the Vault indebted to us--or if nobody's in there, a monopoly on any legacies left within.

This thing here is a lever we can use to move many, many things if used wisely, outside of the immediate personal gains. We could even make Suizen a Fine Blade!
 
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UBR said:
We should probably be at the peak of our stage when we forge that one. That is a very important artifact.

Doing it this way does mean that we will have to do a lot of cultivating for the next few artifacts, but fortunately we just got something which we could sell for an immense amount of cultivation resources useful for our stage. If only people were willing to vote on saving it...
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Okay, what about Tyranshal's Potentiation? And would a Mid-Grand Solipsism tier Quickening Artifact be enough or would we want to wait for True Alchemist?
Rask said:
Half power artifact suggests using it on something that doesn't affect our multipliers directly. I'd use it to get rid of Spoiled. Some banner or icon of Iron Discipline that brings up all the hard lessons our parents tried to instill in us while we weren't paying attention.

Also, a discipline artifact sounds pretty useful in case we end up with that Fell crown thingy that drives artificers extra-insane.
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Why wouldn't we want to affect our multipliers? I think we will end up with more multipliers than we make full strength Artifacts, and once we break through to Dao Cleaving then Artifacts will take even longer.
We need to speed up our cultivation!
 
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Since we have knowledge on the other sects planning to attack, we have a degree of leverage over the Raven leader. We also know the arch-terrorist is really desperate right now given his use of that artifact and his use of all his resources at once, so that's also a good source of leverage.

I'd also prefer just saving BP for the spells and enhancing our power directly with the Pearl. Whatever option we choose that isn't the diplomatic one, we're going to need immediate power to capitalize on the opportunity and the BP points to enhance one of those extremely good spells even in their base form, if we happen to find one.

EDIT:*But that's a good point: the Pearl may allow the Sect Leader to repair his foundation, which would be a good trade for getting out of our vault, and it's not strictly necessary for confronting the arch-terrorist. We're also protected from betrayal by virtue of our family name. So a Pass/Arch-Terrorist -> Diplomatic Confrontation could also work just as well.
 
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Yeah, Pass + Negotiate is a powerful choice. Suizen + Arch-Terrorist is a solid one, as while he's a significant threat, we're basically as close as it gets to being a hard counter to his build, and Assault + Use Yourself maximizes our chances of winning the ensuing fight.

Those are the three viable combinations I've come up. I don't know which one would be best right now, I'll have to sleep on it.
 
George said:
Okay, what about Tyranshal's Potentiation? And would a Mid-Grand Solipsism tier Quickening Artifact be enough or would we want to wait for True Alchemist?
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Potentiation and the next cultivation boosting artifact are also both very important. An artifact to boost Refining maybe (less important since we haven't gone beyond for that spell).

While even more powerful artifacts would be nice for Quickening etc., cultivation just takes too long after the Soul Chrysalis stage. Even dropping down from peak Soul Chrysalis enough times to forge the most important artifacts will take quite some time, so I don't think waiting even longer than that is viable.
 
Option analysis incoming:

[ ] Save It
Fairly straightforward - its effect is greater when used later than when used now. It's also worth a lot of money.

[ ] Consume Personally
Consuming personally has been clarified not to profit from the Phial, so it's not immediately better than using it on a companion. Also "regains" the time spent on scamming, as we are at a similar point as if we had Cultivated during that time. Immediate combat power at the cost of not saving the Pearl for a more beneficial boost later, or a half-strength artifact. Or both, if artifact is made after the combat-heavy operations. Personal preference: artifact to get rid of Spoiled.

[ ] Give to Xiaoling
Helpful in the short term, but she'll catch up eventually due to her Lieutenant position.

[ ] Give to Suizhen
Helpful in the short term, but she'll catch up eventually due to being a fated heroine. Awakening her Eyes of Kong could provide immediate benefits though.

[ ] Confront the Bleak Ravens
Given combined rumors - Raven Leader fleeing after combat, has damaged Cultivation - it sounds as if his assassination attempt went poorly and someone crippled his Cultivation with forbidden techniques. He might be willing to trade for assistance. If he plans to become a power in the region, then he would want to be in good standing with the scions of the Yong and Ming clans too.
If not consumed, the Pearl could be an excellent bargaining tool here.

[ ] Assault the Bleak Ravens
Use the Ravens' enemies against them to slip into the Lich Vault. Fairly safe option, but likely to make an enemy out of the Reality-Forming Leader. Allies don't participate, so aren't in need of a Pearl-based buff.


[ ] Investigate Xylitemmerral
Upside: it's a Lich. Downside: it's a very, very angry Lich who isn't here for talking. It's certainly an opportunity to speak in blue, though, and magic immunity makes this safer for us than for most. Which isn't very safe at all, since minions and constructs don't care about our magic immunity. If we manage to stop or loot him though, the loot would be good. I imagine Suizhen would be pleased about protecting the Empire, too.
 
Alratan said:
On the Pearl, why don't we keep it until we've mastered Greater Refining and then consume it?
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That would be my plan, seeing how I usually go for long-term gain, but we're under a lot of pressure to take advantage of the opportunities in front of us. We were lucky enough to get information on another Lich through intercepted messages, and we lack both serious negotiation leverage and enough firepower to simply blow them away. The Pearl was honestly a godsend for us in how well it synergizes with the choices in front of us. If we successfully navigate through these choices, we'll end up with multipliers and bonuses that I suspect will be far better than just waiting.

I'm also not certain Refining would work on it given that our Phial doesn't boost the Pearl.
 
UBR said:
Potentiation and the next cultivation boosting artifact are also both very important. An artifact to boost Refining maybe (less important since we haven't gone beyond for that spell).

While even more powerful artifacts would be nice for Quickening etc., cultivation just takes too long after the Soul Chrysalis stage. Even dropping down from peak Soul Chrysalis enough times to forge the most important artifacts will take quite some time, so I don't think waiting even longer than that is viable.
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Making any Artifact on a spell we haven't gone Beyond on is a waste.

I don't think we even have the time to do it the number of times necessary to complete your plans!

Rask said:
Because we can't make artifacts that do the same thing multiple times without suffering consequences and diminishing returns. Making a half-strength artifact for a multiplier means not making a full-strength artifact for that multiplier.
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What if not making a half-strength means not making one for it at all? Time is always burning!

And for that matter, what about Artifacts we could make once we're a bona-fide Philosopher-King! Surely we shouldn't use up those slots... right?
 
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George said:
I don't think we even have the time to do it the number of times necessary to complete your plans!
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We almost certainly have enough time if we don't make stupid choices. It currently takes less than 5 months to go from early to peak for Soul Chrysalis (less since Potentiation also boosted Refining in addition to Quickening) if we have plenty of cultivation resources.

We have 41.5 months left and given Rihaku's previous comments it is reasonable to assume that more than 30 of them will be timeskips. That is enough to potentially forge more than 6 such artifacts and we can do much better than that by first forging ones which increase our multipliers.

For example, if we assume that the cultivation artifact doubles our cultivation speed and that both the Quickening artifact and the Potentiation artifact increase our cultivation speed by 50% each (rather modest assumptions for total cultivation acceleration given the effects of previous artifacts), then doing the following
  1. Cultivation artifact
  2. Quickening artifact
  3. Potentiation artifact
  4. Cultivate back up to peak Soul Chrysalis
Would (assuming plentiful cultivation resources) take less than 5 + 5/2 + 5/(2*1.5) + 5/(2*1.5*1.5) = 10.3 months.
 
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[X] Give to Suizhen

The Pearl seems to be the best fit for Suizhen (it even has the same color!), plus I'm curious just what kind of innate abilities she'll awaken. And if there's some kind of hack included? It will be on her and her Fate to deal with it. Still, I wouldn't mind consuming it personally too much, be it for a Cultivation base increase or to forge a Battle Artifact. We might need it fairly soon.

As for the second choice, this one is even more difficult, but-
Hmm. The idea has just occurred to me, but we've been viewing the Ravens and the lich as separate entities, be it as allies or enemies. I don't really know enough about what is and isn't possible with magic in the setting, especially when it starts to interact with Cultivation, but this sentence:
The Bleak Raven Leader critically damaged his personal foundation when breaking through to Reality Forming. Something about the dungeon he is inhabiting allows him to stabilize his foundation, and he is slowly repairing the injury
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Reminds me of possession stories in xianxia.

Like, an old ghost possesses cultivator, but has to recuperate because the process has damaged him too much. That the dungeon helps him stabilize his foundations is also hella suspicious, so perhaps it doesn't necessarily have much to do with the location itself, but with distance? Remember how we had certain range constraints regarding our phylactery before we decided to Go (Further) Beyond. Might not apply to other liches, of course, but it makes one wonder.

There are some things speaking against the theory, like the fact that the Bleak Ravens are still listening to him, but perhaps they don't care who exactly the Patriarch is as long as he's strong enough or don't have a choice in the matter.

So, in light of that:

[X] Assault the Bleak Ravens

Whatever is going on there, I don't want to give them even more time.
 
I'd feel much better assaulting them with 4.75 battle power (with 6x speed) + 3.25 stage team than with 4.25 (x6 speed) battle power + 3.5 stage team.

He is, after all, a Reality Forming Cultivator, no matter how weak his foundation is.
 
George said:
Making any Artifact on a spell we haven't gone Beyond on is a waste.
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That's very likely not true. The way multipliers work it's most effective boosting our lowest multipliers.

For example, it's vastly more powerful to add a single extra +x1 to the multiplier from Master Gerater Refining than to Quickening. The first makes us Cultivate 50% faster, the second makes us 17% faster. It's obvious which is better.
 
UBR said:
Potentiation and the next cultivation boosting artifact are also both very important. An artifact to boost Refining maybe (less important since we haven't gone beyond for that spell).
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We already have an Artifact to boost Refining, I think. The Auroium Phial multiplies value of resources, which Refining also multiplies.
 
We'd better hope that our minions start proving more useful soon. All they're currently looking like is resource sinks.

And no, finding out about another lich when we're pursuing a lead isn't a serious advantage. It's just a distraction. More options becomes a cost past a quite low threshold, due to them consuming cognitive bandwidth and causing analysis paralysis.

Rask said:
Because we can't make artifacts that do the same thing multiple times without suffering consequences and diminishing returns. Making a half-strength artifact for a multiplier means not making a full-strength artifact for that multiplier.
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That's not true, as far as we know. We can't make artifacts that do the same thing sequentially. That's it. As long as we make other artifact in between it's apparently fine.

People keep saying this and I don't know where they got it from

RedV said:
We already have an Artifact to boost Refining, I think. The Auroium Phial multiplies value of resources, which Refining also multiplies.
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We don't. Auroim Phial does nothing to make casting Greater Refining itself better. It just allows better absorbtion of what you consume. Greater Refining makes what you find higher quality. They should multiply together nicely.
 
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Alratan said:
That's very likely not true. The way multipliers work it's most effective boosting our lowest multipliers.

For example, it's vastly more powerful to add a single extra +x1 to the multiplier from Master Gerater Refining than to Quickening. The first makes us Cultivate 50% faster, the second makes us 17% faster. It's obvious which is better.
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Sure, except that what multiplier we get changes if it's gone Beyond, just like with our Philosopher King stuff.
UBR said:
We almost certainly have enough time if we don't make stupid choices. It currently takes less than 5 months to go from early to peak for Soul Chrysalis (less since Potentiation also boosted Refining in addition to Quickening) if we have plenty of cultivation resources.

We have 41.5 months left and given Rihaku's previous comments it is reasonable to assume that more than 30 of them will be timeskips. That is enough to potentially forge more than 6 such artifacts and we can do much better than that by first forging ones which increase our multipliers.

For example, if we assume that the cultivation artifact doubles our cultivation speed and that both the Quickening artifact and the Potentiation artifact increase our cultivation speed by 50% each (rather modest assumptions for total cultivation acceleration given the effects of previous artifacts), then doing the following
  1. Cultivation artifact
  2. Quickening artifact
  3. Potentiation artifact
  4. Cultivate back up to peak Soul Chrysalis
Would (assuming plentiful cultivation resources) take less than 5 + 5/2 + 5/(2*1.5) + 5/(2*1.5*1.5) = 10.3 months.
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We're 2 weeks into our adventure and Peak Soul Chrysalis already wouldn't really be strong enough for the challenges we are facing and you want to cultivate to it 6 times? Hard pass there. Any argument that says making an Artifact at 3.5 isn't good enough also applies to the difference between a Dao Cleaving tier Artifact and a Soul Chrysalis tier Artifact.
 
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