Now You Feel Like Number None [Bleach Arrancar Quest]

Phigment said:

Something is clearly going on with all the old calaveras. Maybe they've all got the same potential as Jackalton, just much less extreme, and now that the hive mind is broken, they're able to start becoming independent? Or, the hive mind isn't broken, it just lost the smartest, most dominant personality. Or, they're still somehow connected to Jack, and they're working off his subconscious or something. Or Ichimaru Gin is doing something. Or the double-ghost of Ruddborne is haunting Nemo from beyond the double-grave.

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I rather suspect that they've become empty vessels, waiting to be filled. Unfortunately, there's no shortage of things around to fill them.

As to the vote...

[X] Refuse. Nothing is worth the moral hazard of working on this project, or the dangers of Szayel's laboratory. You will offend the Espada, who might not even understand why you're letting go of such an opportunity, but Style will let you do so smoothly enough that he won't hold a grudge.

I get why people are voting for Nothing, and I'm less contemptuous of it as a morally cowardly option than I was on first seeing it. I get why people are voting for Healing, and I'll admit it's tempting. But this shit is wrong. We can't stop Szayel's horror show, but we can refuse to play along. Yes, we might alleviate Yammy's suffering if we pitched in... but that would make us complicit in what's been done to him; it would. be an acceptance of it, it would force Nemo to be party to this mutilation. I don't think that's worth it, and I don't think that it's unethical to avoid dirtying our hands in such a fashion by leaving him to Szayel's lack of mercy. To turn over the secrets of La Marana to this monster would be to sully them, to taint Alphonse's tutelage and to irrevocably defile the art that is so integral to Nemo's way of life.

It's not worth it.

[X] Refuse. Nothing is worth the moral hazard of working on this project, or the dangers of Szayel's laboratory. You will offend the Espada, who might not even understand why you're letting go of such an opportunity, but Style will let you do so smoothly enough that he won't hold a grudge.

Vote change.

...I'm glad to see there's no real 'good' answer morally. Because I have to admit, I was wanting to somehow have our cake and eat it. To refuse Szayel AND to somehow soften the impact of that dreadnaught-suit Yammy's gonna get crammed into. But of the two...
Given the concerns the thread has recently raised about Yammy just blowing up whatever? On the one hand...We could help Yammy, eating the perversion of Nemo's art, placing that ideal state she spoke of to Luppi as beyond even her own hands, to try to help someone one last time, before the method of La Marena becomes perverted as well, revealed to be the Hollow art it always was.

Or we could refuse. We could write off that suit as something beyond our reach, that our La Marena is not capable of affecting something mechanical like that, and thus put the lid back on the cookie jar, so to speak. We could have the ability to keep Luppi under wraps, to prevent him from enraging half of Las Noches with his trolling. Maybe also open a space in our schedule for the Gran Rey Cero lesson...

I'm going to say...
[X] Refuse.
We could improve the suit, both in empowering Yammy and even make it less unpleasant. We could learn of Szayel's ways and refine our own with them. But frankly the time investment, the thought of Luppi having more free reign to twist the Opera into a pile of trolling and the fact that Nemo's time is further occupied with Gran Rey lessons... It feels too much like trying to work on this suit has too high a price for too nebulous a reward.

[X] Refuse. Nothing is worth the moral hazard of working on this project, or the dangers of Szayel's laboratory. You will offend the Espada, who might not even understand why you're letting go of such an opportunity, but Style will let you do so smoothly enough that he won't hold a grudge.

Zaealix said:

We could improve the suit, both in empowering Yammy and even make it less unpleasant. We could learn of Szayel's ways and refine our own with them. But frankly the time investment, the thought of Luppi having more free reign to twist the Opera into a pile of trolling and the fact that Nemo's time is further occupied with Gran Rey lessons... It feels too much like trying to work on this suit has too high a price for too nebulous a reward.

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I'll point out that the Refuse voters have been entirely brushing over the fact that Refuse has its own significant cost. It will offend Szayel, and even if he won't - barely - hold a grudge thanks to Style, that's still a large opportunity cost. Las Noches is a society of monsters, and though she might not like it, Szayel is the best ally among the Espada that Cirucci has.

Remember - in canon, Szayel was the one who was collecting the dead Privarons and generally is a very dangerous man. He is entirely willing to bump off people on the same team as him given the slightest excuse so he can do Science on them.

Cirucci needs allies. She's in a lonely position now - top of the non-vasto lorde Espada, over-ranked for her actual talent, and she's irritated Aizen in the past. She's on the top of the mountain, and that means she's trying to balance on a very thin pinnacle.

How much is "keeping clean hands" worth? How much are you willing to pay - and how much danger are you willing to expose both Nemo and Cirucci to - by casting aside unpalatable allies? Because in Las Noches, all your allies are unpalatable to some extent. We've lost the chance to have a Privaron ally heading up the secret police. We keep on making waves. Grimmjow is an inferiority complex wrapped up in a catsuit and he's not going to be happy having been leapfrogged. Uliquorra holds the Nemorucci cute gay romance in contempt.

This is the cost of being a Fraccion - in return for privilege and status over the common Numeros, you're snarled up in these political manners and have to consider what statements your actions make both for you and your lord. Szayel is a dangerous madman, yes, but he's the closest that Cirucci has to being an ally among the Espada. Yes, in a sense it is cowardice to try to placate him and avoid offending him - but if you fight every battle like it's your last and never consider the enemies circling around you, then some day it will be your last.

If it's moral cowardice, then it's dirtying your hands to try to protect your love. It's give and take.

But think about it, a morally adjusted version of the suit would be Gamagoori's Three Star uniform isn't it?

[x] Work with Szayel. In exchange you will ask for…
-[x] Healing your crippling injuries. With the Quinta as your mistress, there is no risk of him offending her by turning you into a freaky mutant, but letting Szayel play around with your insides might still have consequences, even - especially - if he believes he's helping you doing so. Then again, these consequences could be positive…

[x] Work with Szayel. In exchange you will ask for…
-[x] Healing your crippling injuries. With the Quinta as your mistress, there is no risk of him offending her by turning you into a freaky mutant, but letting Szayel play around with your insides might still have consequences, even - especially - if he believes he's helping you doing so. Then again, these consequences could be positive…

[X] Work with Szayel. In exchange you will ask for…
-[X] Nothing. By feigning pure scientific interest in his work and an eagerness to help him, you will please him greatly and make him less likely to scrutinize your work, putting you in a better position to make the Sacrophagus less inhumane, and perhaps giving you the opportunity to pilfer Szayel's notes on other subjects for your own use.

Changing vote

[X] Work with Szayel. In exchange you will askfor…
-[X] Healing your crippling injuries. With the Quinta as your mistress, there is no risk of him offending her by turning you into a freaky mutant, but letting Szayel play around with your insides might still have consequences, even - especially - if he believes he's helping you doing so. Then again, these consequences could be positive…

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For a split second I read it as "Work with Senpai"...

[X] Work with Szayel. In exchange you will ask for…
-[X] Healing your crippling injuries. With the Quinta as your mistress, there is no risk of him offending her by turning you into a freaky mutant, but letting Szayel play around with your insides might still have consequences, even - especially - if he believes he's helping you doing so. Then again, these consequences could be positive…

[X] Work with Szayel. In exchange you will ask for…
-[X] Nothing. By feigning pure scientific interest in his work and an eagerness to help him, you will please him greatly and make him less likely to scrutinize your work, putting you in a better position to make the Sacrophagus less inhumane, and perhaps giving you the opportunity to pilfer Szayel's notes on other subjects for your own use.

I'm entirely satisfied with healing winning, but this is my preference. Given part of the suit's purpose is to keep Yammy un-killed by the damn thing, we could plausibly pilfer info for making our own outfit that counters our current health deficit.

[X] Work with Szayel. In exchange you will ask for…
-[X] Nothing. By feigning pure scientific interest in his work and an eagerness to help him, you will please him greatly and make him less likely to scrutinize your work, putting you in a better position to make the Sacrophagus less inhumane, and perhaps giving you the opportunity to pilfer Szayel's notes on other subjects for your own use.

[X] Refuse. Nothing is worth the moral hazard of working on this project, or the dangers of Szayel's laboratory. You will offend the Espada, who might not even understand why you're letting go of such an opportunity, but Style will let you do so smoothly enough that he won't hold a grudge.

Andres convinced me.

Aleph said:

To turn over the secrets of La Marana to this monster would be to sully them, to taint Alphonse's tutelage and to irrevocably defile the art that is so integral to Nemo's way of life.

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Preach! Alphonse appreciates people remembering he exists!

EarthScorpion said:

How much is "keeping clean hands" worth?

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How much is our dignity worth? How much is our conscience worth?

We might not be a paragon of virtue but we can draw a line in the sand and say no more. This is disgustingly beyond that line. It's not worth it.

Well, to a certain degree I feel we owe it to... ourselves, I guess, to face the consequences of aiding our mistress's ambition. Tweaking the works to gentle the big guy's fate some minuscule amount doesn't absolve us of any guilt, but it's the kind of thing I'd prefer to do if it isn't too costly. Here, I don't think it is. Coincidentally, it's also the path of cooperation that (probably) lacks hidden costs. But perhaps not! Our friendly scientist is a mite unpredictable.

[X] Refuse. Nothing is worth the moral hazard of working on this project, or the dangers of Szayel's laboratory. You will offend the Espada, who might not even understand why you're letting go of such an opportunity, but Style will let you do so smoothly enough that he won't hold a grudge.

La Marana isn't our skill to reveal the secrets of. It's disrespectful at the bare minimum, to take what Alphonse gave us out of passion and love for his craft and give it to an unrepentant monster, especially after seeing what he'd do with it.

It's not worth it.

Pandemonious Ivy said:

Preach! Alphonse appreciates people remembering he exists!



How much is our dignity worth? How much is our conscience worth?

We might not be a paragon of virtue but we can draw a line in the sand and say no more. This is disgustingly beyond that line. It's not worth it.

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I don't understand.

Consider a metaphor: A manager at the shop of atrocities tells you he really hates somebody, and is going to make them miserable by setting them on fire. There is no way out of this guy being made miserable, the fire-guy is way tougher than you and all the managers in the company including your significant other either don't want to or can't make him stop. Also the CEO is really invested in this guy being a one man Burning Man festival. He asks if you want to come along and make the guy miserable with him. Your weapon of choice is a water bottle.

Do you walk away, disgusted? It is a disgusting thing, burning a man alive, yes. Nobody is disputing that. It won't make him any less on fire, though. Atrocity levels remain constant.

Do you agree, and grab some drinks for the fire-manager while he's working, in exchange for a raise? That guy remains just as on fire as before. His situation doesn't become better or worse. Your water-dispenser friend who taught you how to dispense water would probably be disappointed in you for agreeing to work overtime for the fire-manager, though, and that would suck.

Do you agree, and grab those drinks, but in exchange for getting your significant other out of Fire-manager's creepy mandatory joint-section meetings? Second verse, same as the first; burning guy's situation isn't any worse for that. Your water-dispenser friend who taught you how to dispense water would probably be sad about it, but at least you'd have an excuse, and he could come to understand your reasons. Fire-manager is a dangerous psychopath, after all.

Do you agree, and act like you hate this guy too, and dump your water on him? The guy is still burning, but less so. He's miserable, but marginally less so. Water-dispenser friend is more horrified at first, because you didn't just go and set that guy on fire, you also misused the water he gave you, and that makes him very sad. But your reasons are probably the purest of the three; the burning guy is now less on fire. You couldn't save all of him, obviously, but you did your best and you tried. Maybe your water dispenser friend still rejects you. Maybe he feels betrayed. And you'll have to deal with the rest of the office side-eyeing you too, yes.

But how is doing something worse than doing nothing?