Worm canon discussion

[Prince Charon]

Also, it's important to note that whether or not Wilbow intentionally wrote him as such, Danny is pretty obviously suffering from clinical depression.

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Speaking as someone who suffers from relatively mild depression (especially compared to Danny), this is very true.

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This is off topic but I'd be very interested in your explanation for this. I've heard the claim before but it is generally based on misinterpretations of canon such as taking a cracked step Danny hasn't gotten around to fixing and building from that an entire rundown house and the Heberts being incredibly poor.

Could you PM me or reply at Worm canon discussion
Because as far as I can tell we know that Danny was severely depressed in the immediate aftermath of his wife's death, but we don't actually see enough of him to say anything at the start of canon (although we're told he actually acted to try and get Taylor transferred from Winslow after the locker, he just failed).

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OK, I have procrastinated about doing this, mainly due to being tired. I'm still tired, but if I keep delaying I'm going to forget entirely. I apologise if this is vague and rambley.

So, I don't know about Jake, but for me it's less that there's anything specific that I can point to, as that this is both the general impression I get of him, and a suspension of disbelief issue (of which I have a lot with Worm). Jake mentioned spoon theory in the other thread, and that's going to be important in a bit. In short, spoon theory is a way of describing an aspect of depression, and of various fatigue-related ailments:

The term spoons was coined by Christine Miserandino in 2003 in her essay "The Spoon Theory". In her essay, Miserandino describes a conversation between herself and a friend at a diner. The discussion was initiated by a question from the friend in which she asked what having lupus feels like. To explain, Miserandino took spoons from nearby tables to use as a visual aid. She handed her friend twelve spoons and asked her to describe the events of a typical day, taking a spoon away for each activity. In this way, she demonstrated that her spoons, or units of energy, must be rationed to avoid running out before the end of the day. She also asserted that it is possible to exceed one's daily limit, but that doing so means borrowing from the future and may result in not having enough spoons the next day. Miserandino suggested that spoon theory can be helpful for explaining the experience of living with any disease or illness.

While spoon theory originated as a term used to describe the rationing of energy for a person with chronic illness, this idea has been further adopted by others with invisible disabilities and the disability community as a whole. The term has become so popular, individuals without disabilities have even adopted some of the terms.

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Now, here's where the ramble starts. Danny has a job, which is vaguely described by Taylor as 'pretty much telling people that there are no jobs.' Obviously this cannot be totally accurate, or the union would not be able to pay him. Whatever his actual job is, he cannot be bad at it, or again, the union would not be able to afford to pay him. The Heberts appear to have a lower-middle class income from Danny's job, so the union is paying him decently well. He also appears to be some sort of spokesman for the Dockworkers Association, since he is the one that seems to go to negotiate with the mayor to try to get the ferry reopened (where the ferry goes or why it's needed is another matter). His job is often headcanoned to involved negotiation in some way, possibly trying to get people to hire workers from the DWA, and then getting those workers to the job (he was also at a jobsite for some reason, I think after Leviathan). However, in canon he appears to be bad at negotiation - though we can't be sure, since we don't see his conversation with Blackwell at the hospital, nor do we know what she actually agreed to.

Danny is a man who was apparently raised in a working class or lower-middle class family in the late twentieth century USA, and by the time canon happens, he is the sole breadwinner (which is likely to be what he was raised to think he should be doing, regardless of what he learned from being married to Annette). He has to do his job, he needs to focus on his job, because if he doesn't, he will be unemployed, and depending on what exactly his job is, a lot of others in the DWA, his friends, will suffer for it. 'Focusing on the job, even if it means he is too tired for much social interaction at home' is far from unusual for men who grew up when and where he did who aren't that depressed, but he takes it to an unexpected extreme, which is one of the places where depression comes in. He spends basically all his spoons at work, and has barely enough left at the end of the day to come home, make dinner, and go to bed.

His apparent lack of personality when we see him and Taylor interact could also be evidence of depression, because he's too tired to put forth a lot of emotion unless forced to. Sure, Doylistly it's because Wildbow probably didn't consider him an important character, but Watsonianly, another explanation is needed, and that's the one that least bothers my SoD.

I'm pretty sure that there was more I wanted to post, but I'm not sure what.

 

[TheUnicorn]

Now, here's where the ramble starts. Danny has a job, which is vaguely described by Taylor as 'pretty much telling people that there are no jobs.' Obviously this cannot be totally accurate, or the union would not be able to pay him. Whatever his actual job is, he cannot be bad at it, or again, the union would not be able to afford to pay him. The Heberts appear to have a lower-middle class income from Danny's job, so the union is paying him decently well.

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So far we're in agreement.

He also appears to be some sort of spokesman for the Dockworkers Association, since he is the one that seems to go to negotiate with the mayor to try to get the ferry reopened (where the ferry goes or why it's needed is another matter).

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No. He is in canon some sort of spokesman (at least according to his description, never mind how nonsensical it is to have the same person as both head of HR aka running the hiring hall and union spokesman), however this is completely unrelated to his job - the union as a group would not actually have much interest in opening the Ferry and zero standing to argue for it. A member of the union, or a respected employee of the union may have it as a pet project, but any work he did on that would be off the clock. Here's how Taylor describes it:

3.04 – Worm

Posts about 3.04 written by wildbow

parahumans.wordpress.com

The ferry was my dad's pet project. Apparently, it had been one of the first things to go when the import/export dried up. With the ferry gone, the Docks had sort of been cut off from the rest of the city, unless you were willing to drive for an extra half hour to an hour. My dad held the opinion that the lack of that transportation to the rest of the city was why the Docks had become what they were today. He believed that if the ferry were to start running again, jobs would be created, the people in the low income neighborhoods would have more access to the rest of the city, and the low-class, high-class, no-middle-class dynamic of Brockton Bay would smooth out.

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Note nothing connected to the Union, just Dad's pet project that he believes will help people get jobs the union can't provide.

His job is often headcanoned to involved negotiation in some way,

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This comes from people (starting with Wildbow) not having a clue about unions or harbors work. A union doesn't do any negotiation on a day-to-day basis, that's the whole point of the union. Once every several years they'd sit down with the employer, or in cases like dock workers, janitors, etc... representatives of the group of employers and negotiate a contract that specifies the pay scale the employers will pay, standards the workers need to meet, and any other requirements either side has. The head of hiring hall (i.e Danny) may be permitted to sit there listening, but he wouldn't be saying anything unless it's to answer a question someone had about the hiring hall, or possibly offer to serve coffee. The main actors from the Union's side would be their lawyer and the elected head of the union. Possibly a professional negotiator from the national union. A spokesperson might be allowed to sit at the table and speak, but he'd be the junior man there.

He spends basically all his spoons at work, and has barely enough left at the end of the day to come home, make dinner, and go to bed.

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Except we know he doesn't. We barely see him, but we do see him trying to interact with his closed off daughter and caring for her, we're also told of his other enthusiasms outside work, such as his campaigning to get the Ferry re-opened.

Basically as I said in the other thread, there's no evidence of depression in canon, people build a fanon that doesn't fit canon very well which supports the claims of depression, but it's not canon.

 

[Delirium]

Danny clearly did have probably diagnosable depression at one point near Annette's death since his neglect got visible enough that Alan had to talk to him about taking care of Taylor.

Speaking of which, I feel like the existence of a friendship between Danny and Alan implies that Danny's position at least used to be high-powered enough to rub shoulders with a relative big shot like Alan. I mean maybe they were just friends from college or Annette and Zoe were friends or something else but the fact Alan is the one to talk to him at his lowest point feels like it's definitely a Danny/Alan friendship thing rather than a 'husband of my wife's dead friend' thing. I think this speaks to the dire straights the union is in at the start of canon. Danny seemingly stayed on because he believes in it but most likely it's the reason that he and Taylor seem to be on the lower end of middle class if that. I'm willing to bet if he'd resigned from the union to do a similar job elsewhere he'd be making a lot more money. Potentially you could attribute this to Annette's income offsetting his enough to 'chase his morals' so to speak and once she died it stuffed things up a bit. Alternatively, it's a lobster pot analogy, shipping died slowly enough Danny didn't feel the need to get out until it was too late.

 

[TheUnicorn]

Danny clearly did have probably diagnosable depression at one point near Annette's death since his neglect got visible enough that Alan had to talk to him about taking care of Taylor.

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Not quite. One of the questions used to eliminate a diagnosis of clinical depression is "Did you recently suffer a trauma or other upsetting emotional event that could be responsible for these feelings?".
There's no question that Danny is a human being, i.e that he suffered from depression when someone close to him died suddenly.

Speaking of which, I feel like the existence of a friendship between Danny and Alan implies that Danny's position at least used to be high-powered enough to rub shoulders with a relative big shot like Alan.

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What makes you think Alan is a bigshot? His family has more money than the Heberts have and he's a divorce attorney working as an associate(not a partner) in the same firm Carol does. That's all we know about him. We don't know how successful he is or isn't, we don't know how much more money than the Heberts his family has, we don't know if his wife works and if so what does she do.

However lets assume that he's a very successful lawyer and even being considered for a partnership in the firm, so what? That's "today" 10 years ago he'd have been a much less successful lawyer, 20 years ago he'd have been a law student. We don't know when he became friends with Danny, but we do know it's been many years so wouldn't surprise me to find out they'd been friends since before Taylor was borne. With many years of friendship there's no way from the outside to tell how it started. They could have been introduced when Bailing their girlfriends out of Jail and became friends that way or whatever.

I'm willing to bet if he'd resigned from the union to do a similar job elsewhere he'd be making a lot more money.

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While this is true, that assumes there is a similar job available that would hire him.

 

[Valmond]

Danny having depression is a possible interpretation of the character, but not canon one, or the only correct one.
He might just have been too curled up on himself to pay attention to his daughter.

Also, just because Alan is a succesful lawyer does not mean he can't be friends with a small time union employee (or a random homeless bum).
That's not how friendships work. People may be more likely to spend time with people in similar economic situation and/or class, but they are not limited to that.

 

[Prince Charon]

I honestly don't have the energy to argue this right now, I was largely hoping that Jake would chime in, since he clearly has his own reasons for feeling that Danny is probably still suffering from depression (still vaguely feeling that there was something I wanted to say about why it makes sense for Danny to still be depressed years after Annette's death, beyond 'no psychotherapy,' which could be a factor, not the whole reason).

 

[Valmond]

I dislike the depressed Danny interpretation.
Not because it is a bad interpretation, but because when i see it used, it is pretty much always used to excuse Danny failing his parental duties for years, while it all goes away the instant the story starts with no lingering issues, no need for healing to rift between Danny and Taylor, nothing, it's just gone.
That's not how depression works (except in extremely rare cases), and it is way too close to old story telling trope of treating depression as something you can just get over if you stop moping. (i have seen one fic where this did not happen)

Worse, even while people are so very forgiving of Danny due to his hypothetical depression, nobody gives a fuck about when Emma went through.
Not saying Emma is not a terrible person. But she is who she is for many understandable reasons, and was failed by pretty much every authority figure in her life when she needed help.

 

[Prince Charon]

I dislike the depressed Danny interpretation.
Not because it is a bad interpretation, but because when i see it used, it is pretty much always used to excuse Danny failing his parental duties for years, while it all goes away the instant the story starts with no lingering issues, no need for healing to rift between Danny and Taylor, nothing, it's just gone.
That's not how depression works (except in extremely rare cases), and it is way too close to old story telling trope of treating depression as something you can just get over if you stop moping. (i have seen one fic where this did not happen)

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I do agree that that's not how depression works, but I see that as a reason to dislike stories that misuse it that way, not the interpretation itself.

Worse, even while people are so very forgiving of Danny due to his hypothetical depression, nobody gives a fuck about when Emma went through.
Not saying Emma is not a terrible person. But she is who she is for many understandable reasons, and was failed by pretty much every authority figure in her life when she needed help.

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Wow, that sounds very familiar. I think Taylor would even accept the comparison if she knew all the facts.

I suspect that a large part of the reason is that Emma we see directly and maliciously hurting the viewpoint character, while Danny is most often either 'not there,' 'not told the problem exists,' or 'wanting to help but unable to.' In general, there's a significant difference between being actively malicious and just being unwillingly unhelpful, which is why Emma, despite being a child while Danny is an adult, tends to be harder to forgive. I do think that they both need help, and Alan Barnes has far less excuse than Danny for not getting it for her (and himself), since he seems to be around the upper-middle class incomewise, and thus can afford it. He just didn't, most likely because it was also a traumatic moment for him, and he didn't want to think about it (and possibly had convinced himself that getting help for them both would be an admission that he'd failed as a father, rather than accepting that not getting the help they needed was the failure).

 

[Night]

He might just have been too curled up on himself to pay attention to his daughter.

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So he's depressed? Because you know there's gotta be a reason for him to have curled up on himself. You can dress it up however you want, grief perhaps, but at the end of the day you're still using synonyms for depression.

 

[TheUnicorn]

So he's depressed? Because you know there's gotta be a reason for him to have curled up on himself. You can dress it up however you want, grief perhaps, but at the end of the day you're still using synonyms for depression.

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Yup, if he was "curled up on himself" then he's depressed. The problem is the lack of evidence that he is "curled up on himself" and the many (compared to the number of appearences he has)examples we have of him actually acting for his daughter (not acting the way she'd wanted him to act, or in ways that ended up actually helping, but those aren't symptoms of depression). We even have (as @Prince Charon reminded me) his pet project he goes spending time on outside of work or caring for his daughter.
So outside of him not possessing mind reading abilities, or being unable to resist the authorial fiat regarding Worm's "legal" system, what evidence is there of him being depressed?

Go re-read his interlude, we have him actually trying to fix things and failing, but keeping on trying. He seems to be overcompensating for not being like his father, but that's a separate issue.

 

[Valmond]

So he's depressed? Because you know there's gotta be a reason for him to have curled up on himself. You can dress it up however you want, grief perhaps, but at the end of the day you're still using synonyms for depression.

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Or just selfish.
Like, i was sad that my cat died, filled with grief even, but i would not say i was suffering form clinical depression.
Danny might be depressed, or he might be self centered, or any number of other things.
Problem remains, that Danny being depressed is not a good enough a reason for me to just ignore the years of neglect, it can be enough to make the relationship salvageable, but it should take time.

I do agree that that's not how depression works, but I see that as a reason to dislike stories that misuse it that way, not the interpretation itself.

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I dislike the interpretation, because the interpretation is used badly in almost every case i see it.
Even in stories i actually otherwise enjoy or are good enough to make me ignore that bit.

 

[TheUnicorn]

ignore the years of neglect,

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Problem for me is that there are no "years of neglect". There were a few days, just after Annette died, beyond that? All we have is that Danny isn't a mind reader.

 

[Delirium]

Problem for me is that there are no "years of neglect". There were a few days, just after Annette died, beyond that? All we have is that Danny isn't a mind reader.

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When Danny is a parent and Taylor is a child, it doesn't work this way. His daughter is actively suicidal at the start of the story and Danny not only doesn't know anything about it, he thinks things are going pretty well. It's not asking a parent to be a mind reader to show some/any concern over their child. Like any normal, worthy-of-respect adult human after the locker would have pulled their daughter out of the school immediately or gotten people expelled over it. Danny being such a nothing entity is half of the argument here. He seems to be completely unconcerned with everything that goes on around him until he gets directly confronted with it which isn't good enough.

 

[Night]

Or just selfish.

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So he's depressed and also a terrible person for it.

Like seriously, his wife is dead, and you're comparing it to your cat and saying that he's withdrawn because he's being selfish. That says a lot about you and very little about Danny; it's classic shaming for mental health issues.

 

[spacemonkey37]

His daughter is actively suicidal at the start of the story and Danny not only doesn't know anything about it, he thinks things are going pretty well.

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Uh, that's not true at all. Danny definitely does not think things are going well. You should reread his interlude. He knows that Taylor is in a bad place, but he doesn't feel like there's anything he can do about it. He also knows that Taylor isn't telling him everything, which makes him worry, which makes him angry, so he avoids confronting her because he's afraid he'll lose his temper.

 

[Valmond]

So he's depressed and also a terrible person for it.

Like seriously, his wife is dead, and you're comparing it to your cat and saying that he's withdrawn because he's being selfish. That says a lot about you and very little about Danny; it's classic shaming for mental health issues.

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You are assuming he is depressed.
He might be.
Or he might not be and just too focused on himself to pay attention to his daughter.

 

[Prince Charon]

Uh, that's not true at all. Danny definitely does not think things are going well. You should reread his interlude. He knows that Taylor is in a bad place, but he doesn't feel like there's anything he can do about it. He also knows that Taylor isn't telling him everything, which makes him worry, which makes him angry, so he avoids confronting her because he's afraid he'll lose his temper.

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I'm trying to articulate how this (EDIT: or part of it) is a contributing factor in why I think that he is depressed, but I'm unable to put it into words.

 

[Valmond]

I'm trying to articulate how this (EDIT: or part of it) is a contributing factor in why I think that he is depressed, but I'm unable to put it into words.

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Or he is bad at talking about his feelings, especially with his estranged daughter, and is hoping things will right themselves over time (and trusts/hopes that Emma and the Barnes's will be there for her to talk to).
Could be sign of depression, could be sign of being raised in western society.

There is a strong case to be made for Danny to be depressed. I will agree to this even as i dislike the interpretation and its use in fanfiction, but it is not the only one possible.

 

[Night]

You are assuming he is depressed.

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His behavior fits that explanation. You have provided no way his behavior fits the explanation of "he's too self-centered to give a shit", and his Interlude directly contradicts you by showing that he does in fact care and is simply unable to devise or execute a solution, which you have not provided a workaround for either.

And describing someone who's depressed as being self-centered is classic shaming tactics for men who are genuinely not well, so I'm not inclined to be charitable with you any more.

 

[Valmond]

His behavior fits that explanation. You have provided no way his behavior fits the explanation of "he's too self-centered to give a shit", and his Interlude directly contradicts you by showing that he does in fact care and is simply unable to devise or execute a solution, which you have not provided a workaround for either.

And describing someone who's depressed as being self-centered is classic shaming tactics for men who are genuinely not well, so I'm not inclined to be charitable with you any more.

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Because it is not an explanation i actually believe in.
More likely he is just bad at parenting.

 

[TheUnicorn]

When Danny is a parent and Taylor is a child, it doesn't work this way. His daughter is actively suicidal at the start of the story and Danny not only doesn't know anything about it, he thinks things are going pretty well. It's not asking a parent to be a mind reader to show some/any concern over their child. Like any normal, worthy-of-respect adult human after the locker would have pulled their daughter out of the school immediately or gotten people expelled over it. Danny being such a nothing entity is half of the argument here. He seems to be completely unconcerned with everything that goes on around him until he gets directly confronted with it which isn't good enough.

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No, it does work this way. A parent not knowing what they're child is up to/dealing with does not mean they are at fault, if that was the case we'd arrest the parents of every child who committed a crime. All we see is Danny trying (and failing) to take care of Taylor while Taylor refuses to tell him anything.

His behavior fits that explanation

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No, it doesn't. He's active both at work and in the community and trying to care for his daughter (despite her refusing to tell him what's wring, hiding things from him and the various limitations imposed by idiotic authorial fiat). what evidence is there that he's depressed?

 

[Valmond]

No, it does work this way. A parent not knowing what they're child is up to/dealing with does not mean they are at fault, if that was the case we'd arrest the parents of every child who committed a crime. All we see is Danny trying (and failing) to take care of Taylor while Taylor refuses to tell him anything.

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Child feeling like they can't tell anything to their parent is kinda parents fault though.

 

[TheUnicorn]

Child feeling like they can't tell anything to their parent is kinda parents fault though.

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Not really. It can be, but it's also pretty damn common. If you place the standard that high than something like 99.9% of all parents are bad at parenting (and that's even without other adults actively sabotaging him, which is the only way the authorial fiat about the school can possibly work).
I will however conceded that there is no evidence Danny is good at parenting, so it's certainly plausible he's an incompetent parent. It's just that's still a long way from a neglectful parent, which we know he isn't.

 

[Valmond]

Not really. It can be, but it's also pretty damn common. If you place the standard that high than something like 99.9% of all parents are bad at parenting (and that's even without other adults actively sabotaging him).
I will however conceded that there is no evidence Danny is good at parenting, so it's certainly plausible he's an incompetent parent. It's just that's still a long way from a neglectful parent, which we know he isn't.

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He provides Taylor for her material needs, but not emmotional, that is neglect.
Roof above her head, clothes at her back and food in her belly, that is not enough.

If a child at Taylors situation is unable to approach their parent, then the parent has been incompetent at their jobs.
Danny knew something was going on, did he talk to Barnes's? Did he contact school? Did he talk with Taylor? Did he talk with Emma? Did he notice Emma and Taylor were no longer like sisters?
I'd say that what evidence we have of Danny's parental skills and activities, paints a picture of someone who, for whatever reason, fails to do their job as a parent and is neglecting their childs needs.

 

[Delirium]

Uh, that's not true at all. Danny definitely does not think things are going well. You should reread his interlude. He knows that Taylor is in a bad place, but he doesn't feel like there's anything he can do about it. He also knows that Taylor isn't telling him everything, which makes him worry, which makes him angry, so he avoids confronting her because he's afraid he'll lose his temper.

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Yeah but he has no idea how bad things actually are. Like he's not even remotely close, as far as he's concerned Taylor's problems seem to be slightly atypical teenage angst, like this is his understanding of why Taylor runs and it's a good example of how he thinks:

She wasn't happy, especially at school, he knew, and exercise was her way of working through it. He could see her doing it on a Sunday night, with a fresh week at school looming. He liked that her running made her feel better about herself, that she seemed to be doing it in a reasonable, healthy way. He just hated that she had to do it here, in this neighborhood. Because here, a skinny girl in her mid-teens was an easy target for attack. A mugging or worse – he couldn't even articulate the worst of the possibilities in his own thoughts without feeling physically sick. If she had gone out at eleven in the evening for a run and hadn't come back by three in the morning, then it meant something had happened.

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His understanding of Taylor's situation is stuck at this level at the start of the story and he doesn't get a good grasp of what's going on until... I don't know if he ever does, actually. Maybe after her arrest? He understands that she was or is being bullied and that it got bad enough for the locker to happen and he's worried about that but he's worried in an immediate sense; that something might happen to her physically. Otherwise, he thinks she's doing okay; that she's unhappy at school but she works through it with her runs so it's okay and things will improve if he gives her time and space.