Worm canon discussion

[TheUnicorn]

Since there doesn't appear to be a thread for canon arguments discussions (as opposed to discussion of fanfiction) and so we'll have some place t not clog up the fiction threads.

About Clockblocker's power, and time manipulation powers in general(and weather they actually manipulate time) from forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/heels-over-head-worm-altpower-taylor.5178/page-143#post-2425516

Well, now you're postulating that not only is every character who tested Clockblocker's powers wrong, even the guy who successfully duplicated the effect didn't understand what he was doing. I find it really difficult to believe that there would be people smart enough to duplicate the power but not smart enough to see that it's just a trick.

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Which is why I said you have a point.

You're also ignoring the power's interactions with other objects -- for example, no matter how often you replace the molecules in a strand of spider silk, it's not going to cut through a moving vehicle without some heavy structural support.

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Wrong. if you restore the silk thread say every nanosecond it's going to act just as it's shown in canon to act. On the other hand an actual timestop would cause weird visual effects which do not happen in canon.

Similarly, the unlimited weight support provided by Clockblocker's power.

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Which constant restoration would provide just as well.

"Constant atomic replacement" does not sufficiently account for any of the properties of Clockblocker's power.

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Except for all the observed ones. Armmaster's study of it might have found stuff that conclude it is some sort of time manipulation but all the effects we see in canon fit complete restoration in a materialistic universe better than they do timestop.

 

[Kuro_Neko]

Part of the problem with 'frozen in time' is that object would become an immovable object. At first glance this seems to be the case with clockblocker's powers, but that's only if you ignore stellar motion. As you sit reading this you are hurtling through the universe at 2.16 million kilometers per
hour. If clockblocker's power really did freeze things the way everyone thinks then the object would, from the perspective of any outside observer, shoot off at a random angle (dependent on the rotational position of the earth in relation to stellar motion) and an extremely high speed.

Things get even worse when considering Greyboy's power, which supposedly loops people in time... except they remember the loops, which since memory is a physical event happening in the brain shouldn't be possible.

Khonsu apparently accelerated time, but speeding up biological and natural processes would give the same effect without having to actually manipulate time.

The only other time manipulator that I remember was Phir Se but his power explanation can easily be explained without time being involved as well. He supposedly looped the same patch of light for three? days, continually adding to it until it became really powerful. That is just magnifying light and can be done with lenses and mirrors (or the magic space whale equivalent).

Now why would people think these powers affect time when they don't. Could be a bunch of reasons. They could just be coming to an erroneous conclusion, the space whales want to trick them into thinking that for some unknown reason (much in the way they want them to believe precog is actually seeing the future rather then simulations) or something else. My bet is on the space whales.

 

[RadiantPhoenix]

Actually, I'm pretty sure that, per relativity, "stopped time" can't involve a Loony-Tunes style halt.

So, instead, for Clockblocker's power, you have something freeze all the components of a thing relative to each other.

How exactly it does that may or may not be appropriately described as "really" time manipulation.

 

[hellgodsrus]

Bear in mind that Worm 'time' powers may be a Stranger effect more akin to Labyrinth's reality shattering or Flechette's everywhere at once what the hell abilities.

So Clockblocker creates some kind of field with relative momentum to celestial mechanics or some such nonsense, because how would a pure time stop ability benefit space whales.

Also Phir Se's light nonsense was him specifically using light, implying he's tried other things before.

 

[Olivebirdy]

Tossing a gold coin into a portal could have made Phir Se very rich.

 

[RadiantPhoenix]

Tossing a gold coin into a portal could have made Phir Se very rich.

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... or very crushed-under-a-mountain-of-gold.

 

[TheUnicorn]

Other way around. Hookwolf is just a man if you catch him untransformed. Lung is still a regenerator, and thus more likely to survive any given injury.

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I see your point, however given that Hookwolf's transformation is conscious and very quick vs. Lung's which is unconscious and (barring some very unusual conditions) quite slow I stand by my original statement.

That is definitely one of those things that is a conceit rather than a realistic estimation in Worm: the notion that you pretty much need a Cape or a specialist squad to take down Capes.

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Exactly. It makes for a good story, but if you want to analyze how realistic the story is, you need to start with the issues this conceit has.

No, snipers could not take her out. Not unless they ambushed her - which means either attacking her in her civilian ID, or requires major foolishness on her part. Snipers take time to set up, have limited field of fire, and really aren't that good against fast, mobile targets like a flyer.

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You could take out flyers with snipers, or with a bunch of troops firing assault rifles, or a machine-gun. Sniper's do not have a "limited field of fire", they often set up hides which limit their field of fire, but that's not something they need to do, Granted a sniper scope does have a relatively limited angle of view, that's why Snipers generally have spotters. However even if all your points about snipers were right...they'd STILL be able to get Purity when she's in costume - it's not as if she's difficult to spot flying around.

 

[GoldenFalls]

If you want this to be about canon and not fanfiction, you might want to ask the mods to move this out of the fanfiction discussion subforum.

 

[Segev]

Regarding time stop and "stellar motion," the nature of inertial reference frames is such that we likely see the time-stop effect as happening from the perspective of Clockblocker's own inertial reference frame. Or possibly from whichever one he considers " stationary," since we humans often consider our own to be in motion and consider the earth as stationary.

 

[dhasenan]

Regarding time stop and "stellar motion," the nature of inertial reference frames is such that we likely see the time-stop effect as happening from the perspective of Clockblocker's own inertial reference frame. Or possibly from whichever one he considers " stationary," since we humans often consider our own to be in motion and consider the earth as stationary.

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Could also look for the several greatest sources of gravity impacting the object and follow that.

 

[TheUnicorn]

Part of the problem the PRT faces is that, unless the setting is written with further exceptions to the rules of law (which is feasible, but not demonstrated in canon), arresting somebody requires that you actually have and present the warrant. At least, if you're going to pro-actively pursue them.

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This is only a problem if you take Tt. talk about cops and robbers game litterally, and assume that unlike in RL the cops/PRT won't respond with lethal force to someone who is brandishing, much less using a potentially lethal weapon. If you apply RL legal standards to events, the first time Lung tried taking advantage of the way he keeps ramping up and endangering everyone around him he might get away with it if the cops/PRT don't have something in place to deal with him (which given Miss Militia's existence seems a bit unlikely but isn't impossible) and manages to go into hiding. However the next time he tries that he'd get a bullet (or several) in the brain before he can ramp up too much since responding to lethal force, or the threat of lethal force with lethal force is perfectly legitimate.

Lung was vulnerable when Skitter hit him, but her catching him in that state was luck.

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Except Skitter hitting him did nothing, and might even have been counterproductive in giving him time to ramp up before the Dogs hit him. All the toxin Skitter pumped into him would not have had any significant effect in the time frame of the fight, although might have helped keep him down after the fight. If the dogs could do enough damage to take Lung out after he'd ramped up somewhat so could a Swat team, or even a lucky patrolman(if he shot Lung in the eye or something).

 

[Segev]

This is only a problem if you take Tt. talk about cops and robbers game litterally, and assume that unlike in RL the cops/PRT won't respond with lethal force to someone who is brandishing, much less using a potentially lethal weapon. If you apply RL legal standards to events, the first time Lung tried taking advantage of the way he keeps ramping up and endangering everyone around him he might get away with it if the cops/PRT don't have something in place to deal with him (which given Miss Militia's existence seems a bit unlikely but isn't impossible) and manages to go into hiding. However the next time he tries that he'd get a bullet (or several) in the brain before he can ramp up too much since responding to lethal force, or the threat of lethal force with lethal force is perfectly legitimate.

Except Skitter hitting him did nothing, and might even have been counterproductive in giving him time to ramp up before the Dogs hit him. All the toxin Skitter pumped into him would not have had any significant effect in the time frame of the fight, although might have helped keep him down after the fight. If the dogs could do enough damage to take Lung out after he'd ramped up somewhat so could a Swat team, or even a lucky patrolman(if he shot Lung in the eye or something).

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Lung as portrayed in canon doesn't go down to a bullet to the brain unless you nail him before he ramps up at all. And unless they issue a Kill Order in Worm canon, there is no legal way to do that.

Even barring legal limitations, and maybe hiring Victor do out-and-out assassinate him, Victor has to sneak into Lung's territory and FIND him without getting noticed (and an E88-approved White Guy in ABB territory is going to stand out; fortunately, Victor stole some majorly good disguise and acting skills as well as 1-3 Asian languages at native proficiency), then find Lung, and get set up...

...it's doable. For Victor, who is also a Cape, if he devotes lots of time and effort to it. It's also risky, and (no matter how unrealistic you think they are) Worm establishes the Unspoken Rules as a Big Deal, at a minimum between villains. So he'd have to fund unramped Lung in costume. And not. screw. up. Miss even a little, tip him off at all, and he's ramping. And now his regen can protect him.

Lung is OP. Pls nerf. ;P

 

[TheUnicorn]

Lung as portrayed in canon doesn't go down to a bullet to the brain unless you nail him before he ramps up at all. And unless they issue a Kill Order in Worm canon, there is no legal way to do that.

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First as I mentioned there is a perfectly legal way to do that without a kill order, you order him to surrender, if he does great, if he doesn't shooting to kill is completely justified.
Second as I noted we SEE in canon that it takes him a while to ramp up to any serious extent unless he was building the expectation of a fight for a long time, so a rifle shot in the head will take him out for quite a while after he started ramping up.
Third even if you have to resort to an anti-material rifle or an ATGM to take him out, those are legitimate tactics the cops could legally use.

As for Victor, Victor can't do anything normal people can't do - he just can collect the skills to do so without putting any effort into learning the skills.

 

[TreeFrogSoup]

bluh

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Phir Se and Skitter talked about going far back in time, Phir Se said it wasn't worth it.

 

[Segev]

First as I mentioned there is a perfectly legal way to do that without a kill order, you order him to surrender, if he does great, if he doesn't shooting to kill is completely justified.
Second as I noted we SEE in canon that it takes him a while to ramp up to any serious extent unless he was building the expectation of a fight for a long time, so a rifle shot in the head will take him out for quite a while after he started ramping up.
Third even if you have to resort to an anti-material rifle or an ATGM to take him out, those are legitimate tactics the cops could legally use.

As for Victor, Victor can't do anything normal people can't do - he just can collect the skills to do so without putting any effort into learning the skills.

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"Lung! We have you surrounded! Surrender, or be put down! You're out-gunned!"

Lung begins ramping up. It is now too late to headshot him with any certainty that it will work.


Victor can have the high-end set of skills needed to do the infiltration, is all. It'd be harder to arrange for other Capes or normals.

Yes, you CAN assassinate Lung. No, you can't do it LEGALLY without a Kill Order, because the required "surrender" speech lets him get started. Once he's regenerating, it's too late.

 

[TheUnicorn]

Lung begins ramping up. It is now too late to headshot him with any certainty that it will work.

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This is false. Go read Taylor's first fight with Lung up to the point the Undersiders rescue her. That's several minutes during which someone could have shot and killed Lung. If Lung spent weeks or months building up anticipation for the fight so he'd ramp up faster you MIGHT be right, but without that you've got several minutes where he's a mid level brute who can be taken out if you're armed and willing to kill.

Yes, you CAN assassinate Lung. No, you can't do it LEGALLY without a Kill Order, because the required "surrender" speech lets him get started. Once he's regenerating, it's too late.

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As I've pointed out, this is explicitly contradicted by canon.

 

[Segev]

This is false. Go read Taylor's first fight with Lung up to the point the Undersiders rescue her. That's several minutes during which someone could have shot and killed Lung. If Lung spent weeks or months building up anticipation for the fight so he'd ramp up faster you MIGHT be right, but without that you've got several minutes where he's a mid level brute who can be taken out if you're armed and willing to kill.


As I've pointed out, this is explicitly contradicted by canon.

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Nothing we see suggests he couldn't regenerate from it.

Now, I'll grant, maybe you could headshot him with a high enough caliber round to make him have nothing to regen.

You would still have to get the shot in position and not miss. And you'd best hope you kill him, because his rampage will be epic if you don't.

 

[TheUnicorn]

Nothing we see suggests he couldn't regenerate from it.

Now, I'll grant, maybe you could headshot him with a high enough caliber round to make him have nothing to regen.

You would still have to get the shot in position and not miss. And you'd best hope you kill him, because his rampage will be epic if you don't.

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That applies if you have a random patrollman encounter Lung, if you have a Swat team get word of Lung then they'll both have multiple shots to take him out, and have much heavier weapons so even if they miss the first shots they can still kill him (although I expect ther'd be at least a couple of dead SWAT members in that case).

As for no evidence - we SEE how much damage it takes to knock him out after he's had a while to ramp up and it's well below what a SWAT team or a guy with a machine pistol could cause. If a random patrolman bumped in to Lung the way Taylor did he'd have a chance of killing him (although probably dying in the process). If the PRT was looking for Lung with lethal weapons, they'd have no problem killing him if they encountered him, even if they give him a few seconds warning by calling on him to surrender.

 

[Segev]

You're still assuming they can bring that level of ordnance to bear quietly.

You keep relying on the kind of luck a single patrolman stumbling on Lung out of position gets and then shifting that to having a prepared SWAT team.

Also, if it was that easy to bring down Lung, no criminals would ever become notorious without being arrested and jailed or killed, since Lung is much more dangerous than even other Cape villains. Let alone what mos like Accord. Or Al Capone.

 

[Leila Hann]

They don't snipe the supervillains because of genre conventions.

Worm is at its best when its just being a creative superhero story. When it tries to pass itself off as a gritty deconstruction it, well, doesn't.

 

[TreeFrogSoup]

They don't snipe the supervillains because of genre conventions.

Worm is at its best when its just being a creative superhero story. When it tries to pass itself off as a gritty deconstruction it, well, doesn't.

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Most stories underestimate the stubbornness of armchair whatiffers.

 

[TheUnicorn]

You're still assuming they can bring that level of ordnance to bear quietly.

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Quickly, not quietly. Again the canon fight lasted several minutes and Lung was still well below the point where a SWAT team couldn't take him out.

You keep relying on the kind of luck a single patrolman stumbling on Lung out of position gets and then shifting that to having a prepared SWAT team.

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No, you missed the point. There are multiple possible scenerios ranging from a lucky(unlucky?) Patrollman encountering Lung which most likely results in both dying, through various other scenerios up to a full on SWAT team. The thing about the SWAT team is that as long as they can get to the site where lung is fighting quickly they CAN take him out. If the cops were actively looking for Lung with lethal force there wouldn't be stories about how he beat entire teams because he'd be forced to run away before sufficent lethal force could be brought against him.

Also, if it was that easy to bring down Lung, no criminals would ever become notorious without being arrested and jailed or killed, since Lung is much more dangerous than even other Cape villains. Let alone what mos like Accord. Or Al Capone.

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The difference between Lung and RL notorious criminals is that in RL the issue the cops have is either proving the person is guilty (like Al Capone, who I'll note they never did prove was guilty of anything other than Tax evasion) or the issue is catching them. NO criminal in RL stands and challenges the police to try and kill him, not at least multiple times (and when someone does something like that it's labeled "suicide by cop") that's the issue. You can have notorious and dangerous criminals the cops can't catch, you can have gangs with enough firepower to push the cops out of entire neighberhoods. What you can't have, at least not without ignoring how cops would realistically treat it is have a person who repeatedly brandishes deadly weapons threatening to kill people and facing down the cops, then walking away - but that's how Lung is described in canon.

They don't snipe the supervillains because of genre conventions.

Worm is at its best when its just being a creative superhero story. When it tries to pass itself off as a gritty deconstruction it, well, doesn't.

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Exactly. That is my entire point. If you accept genre conventions, it works, but if you try and look seriously at how law enforcement would treat someone like Lung it doesn't.

 

[Segev]

I still think you're overestimating the speed with which a SWAT team can be fielded to a specific location on no notice other than a call from a lucky patrolman. And the "quietly" part is critical to keep Lung from ramping up the entire time they are en route.

Lung has fought teams of Capes from the point he started against Skitter, and she did the best nearly anyone has!

SWAT is impressive, but the Protectorate ENE and the Emipre 88 are more so.

 

[TheUnicorn]

I still think you're overestimating the speed with which a SWAT team can be fielded to a specific location on no notice other than a call from a lucky patrolman. And the "quietly" part is critical to keep Lung from ramping up the entire time they are en route.

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Except the whole point is that even IF he's actively fighting, and thus ramping up they can still take him if they get there quickly.

Lung has fought teams of Capes from the point he started against Skitter, and she did the best nearly anyone has!

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Yes, which only makes sense if everyone was trying to CAPTURE him (as we know Armsmaster was doing) instead of give him a single warning then shoot to kill.

 

[Segev]

Except the whole point is that even IF he's actively fighting, and thus ramping up they can still take him if they get there quickly.

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I'm not sure if you missed it, so I'll repeat it, but I think you're overestimating how fast they can get there. Firemen take long enough to reach sites that Lung could have ramped beyond mortal weaponry by the time they arrived. SWAT teams aren't in as constant a state of readiness.

Yes, which only makes sense if everyone was trying to CAPTURE him (as we know Armsmaster was doing) instead of give him a single warning then shoot to kill.

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Even buying that it's a desire to take him alive that hinders the Protectorate, that doesn't explain the E88. They clearly don't think they have the firepower to just take him out at their leisure, or they would have already. Consider that Purity doesn't even have a ramp-up time before she becomes a scribble laser.