White Wolf's World of Darkness

[OctarineShrike]

For those who may not know, Eric Zawadski(Who was a developer on Deviant the Renegades), is working on Storytellers Vault material for DTR. There's a preview thread on RPG.net(💡 I Made This! - Shallow Graves - A Player's Guide to Deviant: The Renegades | Tabletop Roleplaying Open)

And here's the Summoner Form from page 9 of the thread:

Spoiler: Summoner Form

Summoner

The power of the Divergence exists apart from the Deviant or can be split off from him. This homunculus might be an ever-present, hulking guardian, an animal-shaped manifestation of pure energy he summons when he needs it, or any number of other things. It might obey his every command or twist his wishes to serve its own goals.

Systems: By default, a Summoner's homunculus has the following traits:

• Scar-Fueled: Choose a Magnitude 3 Scar to associate with the homunculus (the Homunculus Scar). Bringing the homunculus into existence during a scene follows the rules for activating a Toggled Variation of the appropriate type (including the homunculus disappearing at the end of the scene) and attracts conspiracy attention as though it were an Overt Variation of the same Magnitude as the Homunculus Scar. Whether the Homunculus Scar is Controlled, Involuntary, or Persistent, the Broken carries the cost. Tribulation forces him to spend Willpower to summon the homunculus, for example, and Conspicuous Appearance makes the Remade noteworthy, not the homunculus. In a similar vein, Involuntary Stimulus causes the homunculus to summon itself whenever the Scar's conditions are met.

• Assigned Variations: The homunculus possesses one or more of the Deviant's Variations, each of which is entangled with its own Scar. The Remade cannot use those Variations, as they belong to the homunculus. The Broken's Attributes determine Scar Power/Finesse/Resistance, and they use his Acclimation. The homunculus does not enjoy any of the benefits of a Variation that has not been assigned to it, so a Deviant with the Enhanced Speed Variation doesn't grant the Variation's benefits to all his homunculi, nor does Superhuman Strength make them stronger. If a Homunculus Scar has Standard Deviations that limit or change how entangled Variations work (such as Target Restriction), these apply to all the homunculus's uses of Variations. Whenever the Remade purchases a new Variation, he may assign it to a new or existing homunculus instead of to himself. Adaptations can be used to reset the homunculus's limited-use Variations, but they cannot otherwise affect the homunculus.

• Multiple Homunculi: The Deviant can also define multiple homunculi, but each Variation can only be assigned to one homunculus at a time unless the Remade purchases the Variation multiple times to assign to different homunculi (permitted even if the Variation cannot normally be purchased multiple times). Once a Variation is assigned to a given homunculus, however, it cannot be reassigned to a different homunculus without a narrative explanation and Storyteller approval. Only one homunculus can be active at any given time.

• Distinctive: Each homunculus has a distinctive appearance. Although not all are humanoid (animals, machines, and stranger things are quite common), those that resemble humans have the same face, body shape, and attire each time the Summoner calls them forth.

• Range: When summoned, the homunculus appears at a place the Deviant can perceive within 40 yards/meters.

• Actions: The Deviant and homunculus each have their own separate actions, with both acting on the Deviant's initiative (unless modified by a Variation). For mundane tasks, the homunculus has six dice for actions in two areas of expertise of the Broken's choice and two dice for other actions — both of which can still benefit from Variations like Hypercompetence (treating half the appropriate dice pool as coming from its Skill) and Superhuman Attribute (adding a flat bonus equal to the Magnitude of Superhuman Attribute). Once chosen, these areas of expertise cannot change. Homunculi lack armor, weapons, or equipment when summoned. Their Defense is 3.

• Other Traits: Homunculi do not have Willpower, although the Remade can spend Willpower on their behalf. A homunculus disappears if it suffers any damage, although the Broken can re-summon it. A homunculus can be of Size 5 or less, as decided when the transformed purchases this Form; small (Size 4 or less) homunculi have the same advantages and disadvantages as Remade with the Miniaturization Variation, but it usually doesn't affect Health (but see Durable below) and microscopic homunculi are not permitted. Derived traits like Speed and Initiative are based on the Broken's unmodified Attributes except where the homunculus has a Variation that modifies these.

• Limited Independence: A homunculus has a limited understanding of the world around it. It will obey the Deviant's one-sentence/step commands (which he can issue as a reflexive action on his turn) immediately and without question, but it doesn't act of its own volition.

• Undying: If the homunculus is destroyed, it reforms and can be summoned again at the beginning of the next chapter, but the Broken suffers a medium Instability. If the homunculus has the Ever-Present effect, it automatically summons itself to the Summoner's presence at the beginning of the next chapter (the next scene, if it also has Easy Reformation).

A Summoner can spend some of his starting Merit dots to change most of the above rules. With the Storyteller's permission, the Summoner may spend Experiences to improve the Form during play. These Merit dots can be used as follows:

Adaptable (2 dots): Homunculi can benefit from the Deviant's Adaptations, although the Broken must pay any associated costs.

Capable (2 to 15 dots): A homunculus possesses 1 additional Magnitude of Variations per two Merit dots, although they must be entangled with Scars as normal. For three Merit dots per Magnitude of Variations, this is instead Scar-free Magnitude of Variations. The Magnitude of these Variations cannot be increased later and can't exceed 5 Magnitude total, but they don't count against the Broken's starting Magnitude of Variations.

Durable (2 dots): The homunculus calculates Health based on its Size and Stamina (which is equal to the un-enhanced Stamina of the Deviant), plus any due to the Variations assigned to it (such as Superhuman Stamina).

Easy Reformation (2 dots): If destroyed, the Broken can summon the homunculus again at the beginning of the next scene instead of the next chapter.

Ever-Present (2 to 4 dots): The Deviant may summon a homunculus as a reflexive action on his turn but may not summon more than one homunculus per turn. At 4 dots, the Homunculus Scar must be Persistent, and this effect is exclusive with Limited Use, but the homunculus is always present (and counts as an Overt Scar of a Magnitude equal to that of the Homunculus Scar).

Far-Ranging (2 dots): The Deviant can summon the homunculus to any place she can perceive within 400 yards/meters.

Guarded (–2 to 7 dots): The homunculus's Defense is 1 (–2 dots) or 2 (–1 dots), or it is increased by the starting Merit dot cost of this effect (Defense 4 at a cost of 1 dot, for example, and Defense 10 at a cost of 7 dots).

Huge (2 to 10 dots): The homunculus's Size exceeds 5 and it enjoys the benefits bestowed by the Gigantic Variation. This does not normally increase its Health (but see Durable above). The Merit cost is based on the maximum Size: 2 dots at Size 6-8, 4 dots at Size 9-10, 6 dots at Size 11-15, 8 dots at Size 16-20, and 10 dots at Size 20-25. Summoning the homunculus grants a bonus to the conspiracy's next surveillance roll equal to half the Merit cost of this effect. This effect is compatible with the Gigantic Variation, potentially resulting in a homunculus as large as Size 40.

Idle (–4 to 4 dots): At –2 dots, the homunculus takes no action (whether independently or in furtherance of an order) unless the Remade is within summoning range of it (typically 40 yards/meters). At –4 dots, it takes no action except when he is in physical contact with it. If the homunculus has the Willful effect at –4 or –6 dots, Idle instead costs 2 dots for the base effect and 4 dots if the homunculus can only act when the Broken is in physical contact with it.

Independence (2 to 10 dots): The homunculus can understand complex commands as well as an ordinary person is able to. It has greater expertise or a wider breadth of knowledge than other homunculi:

• Breadth (2 to 4 dots): It has two additional areas of expertise (for a total of four) and rolls three dice for other actions instead of two. At 4 dots, it instead has a total of six areas of expertise and rolls four dice for other actions.

• Depth (2 to 4 dots): It has eight dice in its areas of expertise instead of six. At 4 dots, this is 10 dice.

• Specialized (2 dots): Exchange some of the homunculus's areas of expertise for Specialties and/or Merits at the rate of five Specialties/Merit dots per area of expertise.

Limited Use (–2 to –4 dots): The Deviant can only summon each homunculus once per chapter (–2 dots). At –4 dots, this is instead once per story.

Modified Scar (–4 to 4 dots): The Homunculus Scar's Magnitude is instead 5 (–4 dots), 4 (–2 dots), 2 (2 dots), or 1 (4 dots).

Multiplicity (4 to 10 dots): The Deviant can have multiple homunculi active, although he must still summon each one separately. Regardless of how many homunculi are currently active, they may only take one action per turn between them, although they can move normally. The maximum number of active homunculi cannot exceed two (4 dots), three (6 dots), four (8 dots), or five (10 dots).

Painful Bond (–2 dots): If the homunculus is destroyed, the Remade suffers a major Instability instead of a medium Instability. This is exclusive with Painless Bond.

Painless Bond (2 dots): If the homunculus is destroyed, the Remade suffers a minor Instability instead of a medium Instability. This is exclusive with Painful Bond.

Plain (2 dots): Summoning the homunculus does not count as activating an Overt Variation. However, the homunculus may still attract additional conspiracy attention if it uses Overt Variations once summoned.

Scarred (–1 to –6 dots): The homunculus has one or more of its own flaws. Choose a Persistent Scar (including Standard Deviations) and reduce the Merit dot cost of this Form by half the Magnitude of the Scar (rounded up). This Scar must be relevant to the homunculus in question and a potential burden for the Summoner. A homunculus that lacks Health cannot suffer a Scar that reduces how much Health it has, for example, and one with Conspicuous Appearance applies many of the related Conditions to the Summoner whenever he brings it forth. A homunculus's Scars generate Beats whenever they create complications for the Summoner or his cohort. A homunculus with multiple Scars uses the lowest-Magnitude Scar to calculate the base Merit dot cost and then further reduces the cost by one Merit dot per additional Scar (to a minimum cost of –6 dots).

Shared Power (2 to 4 dots): The Deviant has access to the homunculus's Variations except when it is active or only when it is active (chosen when this Form is purchased). At 4 dots, he retains access regardless of whether the homunculus is active.

Weak Summoner (–2 to –6 dots): For as long as one of his homunculi is active, the Summoner is treated as a 3-dot Retainer with three areas of expertise of his choice based on Skills in which he has at least 2 dots. Once chosen, these areas of expertise cannot change except at the end of a chapter. At –4 dots, he instead counts as a 2-dot Retainer, and at –6 dots he counts as a 1-dot Retainer.

Willful (–2 to –6 dots): The homunculus has a will of its own, complete with its own Aspiration(s), Virtue, and/or Vice. It can and will refuse the Deviant's orders if they conflict with those goals unless he successfully strikes a bargain with it. At –4 dots, the Summoner must instead obey the commands of the homunculus when it is present, although he can twist its intent if he dares. At –6 dots, not only does the homunculus command the Summoner, its motives are so alien and terrible that its orders will almost always create problems for him.

Differentiated Homunculi

The optional effects of the Summoner Form assume that all the homunculi follow the same rules, even though they have different abilities. This is meant to keep an already complex Form from becoming too complicated. For troupes willing to accept more bookkeeping, though, a Storyteller may allow a Summoner to have each homunculus follow a different set of rules. One might be tiny and clever, while another is enormous but none-too-bright, for example.

To represent this, determine a net Merit dot cost for the Form and pay that cost once. Then, build each homunculus using a budget equal to that cost. For example, a net 4-dot Form could allow one homunculus to be Capable (4 dots), while another is Durable (2 dots), Independent (4 dots), and Willful (–2 dots).

In order to have multiple homunculi active at the same time, each homunculus must have the Multiplicity effect at the appropriate rating.

 

[Konradleijon]

Part of the reason why the Gentry are so terrifyingly powerful is all their Bargains they've made with Arcadia. They aren't nearly as powerful Ironside, and they have some very significant restrictions as well.

The funny thing is, a lot of Unchained run to the Hedge, because it's the only somewhat-habitable otherworld where the God-Machine essentially has no power over. Especially the Tempters who are trying to find worlds where the Machine can't follow them to.

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Yes the negotiations between the God-Machine and Wyrd/Fae/Arcadia/Hedge have not been going good.

So the GM is not permitted to search in the Hedge.

I think it's because the GM is a creature of material realty. Angels exploits are like exploring a games engine but the engine is real life. It's a creature of the physical world while the Wyrd is based on stories.

Just remembered that there's a bit in 2e Changeling about the True Fae not being native to Arcadia and coming there from somewhere else. Now, I'm far more familiar with 1e (though it has been years) but that just makes me think of a group of Changelings dedicated, not to fighting the Gentry or moving on to find a life for themselves on earth or whatever, but looking for somewhere else to live.

After all, if the Gentry conquered Arcadia and now rule it as gods, how do we know they won't do the same to earth, when the time is right?

The Changelings have fled back home, yes. But they haven't run far enough.

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The Gentry being settler colonialists actually adds to the horror of what they represent as being a oppressive power structure abuse.

Yes in the Night Horrors book a Gentry is trying to take over Earth. But he has to follow certein rules. Which is why he is running a big box store

Also how are you am I the only Beast fan here?

 

[Legend of Ruina]

Also how are you am I the only Beast fan here?

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It was a really weird angle to take with Slashers 2E, can't say I'm a fan of making them playable, but they do make very nice antagonists.

In all seriousness, I don't think most people here particularly care for it, as a half assed mess of a splat written by an abusive piece of trash with that very much permeating the writing. For me at least, Beast was excellent for making me see the reasons all the things it decided to skip over work as a standard for WoD.

The Y Splat gives you different takes on why you should keep going, what purpose you serve and what philosophical takes form. Beast instead just has hungers, which are inherent traits and therefore mostly another X splat, as they don't even really touch on philosophy.

The morality stat serves to establish what's verboten or looked down upon, what's considered weird and fucked up by the standards of whatever splat you're playing. Beast doesn't have one, and the moral floor is established as being near nonexistent.

The Z splat serves to outline your own personal accomplishments or other interesting bits separate from overarching society. Beast doesn't have that either. There's effectively nothing to aspire to that's unique. There's no Legacy, no Cipher, no Lodge. You just continue on and maybe reach one of a handful of extremely generic end states.

 

[Potato Anarchy]

There is interesting stuff buried in beast that i've found because of passionate fan essays, and I think it can be very meaningful for people who connect to it, but the Shitty Dev's legacy is really as much the incoherence as the self-satisfied creeping. There are parts of the corebook which just clash with each other in ways a serious dev with an actual vision would have at least cleaned up in redlines or better yet, clarified before you even hit first drafts. It is three games in a trenchcoat and they're fighting each other. Later writers tried to fix this but could only get so far.

 

[Queen-in-yellow]

I do wanna note that said shitty dev existence permeates nearly every piece of 1e work and some of the anniversary edition stuff. As Dave said his writing is half of 1e and parts of 2e such as Demon the descent and Promethean the created seeing as he was the lead dev of those. One of the reasons why the C20 devs stopped working on any other expansions for it beyond the Kickstarter stuff was because he was also the lead dev for that one.

It's also important to note that he was the lead dev of beast the primordial not just a dev and as lead dev, he slept on the project and practically let anyone add anything to it while also okaying any interpretation when they asked. It is three games in a trenchcoat because he pretty much didn't have a vision beyond what is essentially a scary monster that feeds on fear.

Beyond that, I do enjoy a lot of the mechanics and think you can salvage something from them (The fact that the 3e and essence devs salvaged up infernals pretty much says it all in my mind at least and that one came with pictures.)

 

[Kadmus]

The other core problem of Beast is that it's, you know, 'about playing a monster', but so are all the other CofD games. It has nothing particularly interesting or compelling about your character's monstrosity, either; you're just an unlikeable abusive piece of shit in a more realistic way, no metaphors involved. Some of the examples of Beasts are literally just abusers in various forms. I have no interest in playing a petty bully.

Lairs are a sick as hell idea though, just a shame they're attached to Beasts.

 

[GAWR]

snip

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Well A interesting take for Beast I've seen is that both the beast and hero are both victim to something called a monomyth. A sort of cosmic law that seems to bend fate to ensure that a hero always rises in response to the presence of a beast and the beast always fell by they hands. And some beasts are growing tired of it and they want to do something to break the cycle.

Also I was personally thinking about applying W5's "all elders are bastards" out look to Beast and make it that all the mentor charters are bad people. At best, they're forcibly indoctrinating younger beasts into they belfe system because they genially believe that they are generally helping them to survive, utterly blind to the potential harm they're causing. At worst they don't regard they "children" as more than mere tools meant to take the hero's blade in the stead.

Most Beasts in this version seeks out other supernaturals to take as family not because of some supernatural compulsion. But because they seem them as being something that's More than a Beast and they desperately want to emulate them.

Take the forsaken for example. Sure half of they soul is that of a vicious predator but that doesn't prevent them from being noble guardians who guard the world from things beyond it's boundaries, and most important of all they have a tribe, Community, a Family to take trust in. While the beast knows only knows pain and suffering from both heroes, and they own kind...

That's why they want to form a connection with the Forsaken, even if they risk becoming a prey in they hunts...

 

[illhousen]

While far from its greatest sin, the thing that stuck with me about Beast is just how petty some of the example Beasts were. There could be pathos in playing unabashed monsters (with the right group, in the right tone), but one of the Beasts is just a health inspector feeding on impotent fear of restaurant managers, and can you fucking imagine sitting down and actually playing that scene out?

Storyteller: The manager leads you into the kitchen. Roll me Wits+Empathy.
Player: OK... Three.
Storyteller: Good enough. He tries to project an air of professionalism, but you notice his eyes darting across the room. He's clearly nervous, though whether he has something to hide or just heard about your... reputation, you can't tell. What do you do?
Player: So, I walk around the kitchen in a lazy circle, not really looking at anything in particular, kinda nodding to myself. Like, to lure the guy into false sense of security, yeah?
Storyteller: Sure, he seems calmer.
Player: Then I suddenly stop, bend over and reach for one of those places between some appliance and a wall or floor that are really hard to get to. Ah... do I need to roll something?
Storyteller: Nah, you just do it.
Player: OK, do I find some dust there?
Storyteller: Sure.
Player: So, I stand up, turn to the manager, show him my dusty finger and slooowly shake my head.
Storyteller: Wow. I'm shaken. I'm not even going to roll anything, the guy is trembling with fear and ripe for feeding your Horror.

 

[Queen-in-yellow]

Honestly, I don't think you need to roleplay feeding just like how you don't need to roleplay every vampire feeding, werewolf hunt outside of the main hunts and every changeling glamour regain. One of my changelings was a bartender who would regain glamour via conversation and I don't think Storyteller wants to Roleplay hearing about a guy's bad day at work.

As for the whole food inspector thing funny enough, I did play that one out and it resulted in the said losing his mind because unlike regular food inspectors who would just tend to check on if things are up to temp (The idea of a dusty finger is hilarious because having worked in several different kitchens food inspectors tend to ignore a lot.) Said inspector simply just pointed out that the restaurant had a cockroach by moving a table to reveal the scurrying bugs and had the place temporarily shutdown.

 

[Citrakayah]

And that's why I want that guy checking the restaurants where I'm eating.

 

[Konradleijon]

As for the whole food inspector thing funny enough, I did play that one out and it resulted in the said losing his mind because unlike regular food inspectors who would just tend to check on if things are up to temp (The idea of a dusty finger is hilarious because having worked in several different kitchens food inspectors tend to ignore a lot.) Said inspector simply just pointed out that the restaurant had a cockroach by moving a table to reveal the scurrying bugs and had the place temporarily shutdown.

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I don't think Cockroaches are all that harmful to human health.

At least as bugs go.

Honestly, I don't think you need to roleplay feeding just like how you don't need to roleplay every vampire feeding, werewolf hunt outside of the main hunts and every changeling glamour regain. One of my changelings was a bartender who would regain glamour via conversation and I don't think Storyteller wants to Roleplay hearing about a guy's bad day at work.

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The isssue is that Vampire, Werewolf, and Changlings have other stuff to do then feed.

Feeding is part of Beast's core identity. It's called a game of endless hunger.

While far from its greatest sin, the thing that stuck with me about Beast is just how petty some of the example Beasts were. There could be pathos in playing unabashed monsters (with the right group, in the right tone), but one of the Beasts is just a health inspector feeding on impotent fear of restaurant managers, and can you fucking imagine sitting down and actually playing that scene out?

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Yes that's a issue Beasts are supposed to be the primal fears of humanity made flesh from the collective consciousness but they act like petty jerks who steal your grandma's ashes, catfish people, go "well actually", and other petty acts of Jerkatuide.

The idea of manfistions of human fears/other emtions being in the world is semi common in genre fiction see the Magnus Archive and Chainsaw Man. So the idea of playing humans with a primal fear as their soul and having to try and guide it to constructive uses is cool.

There is interesting stuff buried in beast that i've found because of passionate fan essays, and I think it can be very meaningful for people who connect to it, but the Shitty Dev's legacy is really as much the incoherence as the self-satisfied creeping. There are parts of the corebook which just clash with each other in ways a serious dev with an actual vision would have at least cleaned up in redlines or better yet, clarified before you even hit first drafts. It is three games in a trenchcoat and they're fighting each other. Later writers tried to fix this but could only get so far.

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Yes. That's common in projects that have troubled projections.

See the attitude towards Heros. Sometimes they are irredeemable evil, other times they are broken people lashing out.

I still really relate to the base theme of having a monster inside you and finding out.

 

[grommile]

I don't think Cockroaches are all that harmful to human health.

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Visible cockroaches in a commercial kitchen are a reasonably good proxy for poor hygiene standards.

 

[Miath]

Not to mention they absolutely are a danger to human health.

 

[hyzmarca]

Feeding is part of Beast's core identity. It's called a game of endless hunger.

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I don't think the Feeding mechanics should be a part of Beast's core identity. Beast's core identity was supposed to be that they're the blank slate crossover splat that has no core identity so that can get shoved into other splats stories without breaking things. Which is a weak core identity that can't stand on its own, so they tried to make feeding the core identity instead. But that's somehow stupider. The feeding mechanics are the part of Beast that really need to be gotten rid of. Because they're what makes the game Abuser: The Gaslighting. No one wants to play Abuser: The Gaslighting.

In Vampire, the feeding is a rape metaphor. And it's treated as horrible. In Beast, feeding is also a rape metaphor. But it's explicitly for the victim's own good, to teach lessons, or whatever. Vampire is a game about milquetoast midwestern Christian teens whose greatest crime to date has been listening to unblack metal pretending to be transgressive monsters for fun. Beast is a game about real world rapists who have literally raped real people in the real world trying to justify themselves through a role playing game.

Which is sad because it had a lot of potential. And the people on the beast development team who aren't rapists have tried to salvage it. Poorly.

Ripping the feeding mechanics out and just removing them wholesale is the best way to both get rid of that taint and to stop stepping on Vampire's toes. Because otherwise Beast is just Vampire without a shred of self-awareness and somehow even more pretentious.

Vampires already have endless hunger. Beasts don't need it. What beasts need is to be primal and dangerous. That's how I prefer to play it. Werewolves are primal and dangerous, but they have purpose and duty. Beasts just are, power without duty or restraint. Godzilla in High School. And the problem is that your foot is bigger than the school building. You have the power to change or destroy the world as you see fit, but unleashing that power has consequences on everyone around you and you might not like those consequences.

And LGBT Superheroes also isn't a core theme because that's literally every splat in both worlds of darkness. Vampires are LGBT superheroes. Werewolves are LGBT Superheroes. Changelings are very LGBT superheroes. Demons are LGBT superheroes. Mages are LGBT superheroes. Promethean are LGBT superheroes. Deviants are LGBT superheroes. Beasts can be LGBT superheroes, too, but that can't be a core identity.

Well A interesting take for Beast I've seen is that both the beast and hero are both victim to something called a monomyth. A sort of cosmic law that seems to bend fate to ensure that a hero always rises in response to the presence of a beast and the beast always fell by they hands. And some beasts are growing tired of it and they want to do something to break the cycle.

Also I was personally thinking about applying W5's "all elders are bastards" out look to Beast and make it that all the mentor charters are bad people. At best, they're forcibly indoctrinating younger beasts into they belfe system because they genially believe that they are generally helping them to survive, utterly blind to the potential harm they're causing. At worst they don't regard they "children" as more than mere tools meant to take the hero's blade in the stead.

Most Beasts in this version seeks out other supernaturals to take as family not because of some supernatural compulsion. But because they seem them as being something that's More than a Beast and they desperately want to emulate them.

Take the forsaken for example. Sure half of they soul is that of a vicious predator but that doesn't prevent them from being noble guardians who guard the world from things beyond it's boundaries, and most important of all they have a tribe, Community, a Family to take trust in. While the beast knows only knows pain and suffering from both heroes, and they own kind...

That's why they want to form a connection with the Forsaken, even if they risk becoming a prey in they hunts...

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That's an interesting take.
My personal take is more to lean into solitude. Beasts are unique. Each one is a singular being with no other like it. There is no race of beasts, there are individual lone gods that rule sovereign over all they survey, whether it be ancient forests, dark caves, or the Lincoln Park High School. Basically rip of Evengellion a little bit. beasts are like Angels. Solitary creatures powerful enough that they don't need to interact with other people in their true forms. But then you don't have a game, do you. So you have an integrity stat that measures how close they are to their primordial nature vs their human disguise. They go too Primordial and fully shed their humanity, and they go off to sit on a pile of gold in a dark cave somewhere, they need nothing else. And then a hero inevitably slays them because that's what happens to Primordials who loose themselves in their power.

Thus touchstones become important. Found family is the name of the game. Primordials need things that tie them to their human identities so that they can maintain those ideas. They need people to interact with so that they don't go off and sit on a dragon hoard forever. And they need people who will fight beside them so that they can stand against their enemies without going full Godzilla and crushing Tokyo underfoot.

See the attitude towards Heros. Sometimes they are irredeemable evil, other times they are broken people lashing out.

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I prefer heroes as good people fighting to protect humanity from a very real, dangerous threat. Does that make the Beasts the bad guys? Some of them. Some of them not. But sometimes good people are on different sides because their allegiances are just incompatible. Two knights serving rival lords can both be good, honorable, just, kind, and compassionate, and still hack each other to death on the battlefield. A Hero can just be a hero, and still have plenty of reason to hunt Beasts. They don't need to be wrong. And making them wrong seems to serve the goal of making Beasts always right about everything.

 

[SinisterPorpoise]

I prefer heroes as good people fighting to protect humanity from a very real, dangerous threat.

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Okay, but how does that mesh with;

They go too Primordial and fully shed their humanity, and they go off to sit on a pile of gold in a dark cave somewhere, they need nothing else.

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Because that seems like going after something that would have been doing nothing and bothering nobody, and poking it with the world's largest stick for no reason.

 

[Konradleijon]

I prefer heroes as good people fighting to protect humanity from a very real, dangerous threat. Does that make the Beasts the bad guys? Some of them. Some of them not. But sometimes good people are on different sides because their allegiances are just incompatible. Two knights serving rival lords can both be good, honorable, just, kind, and compassionate, and still hack each other to death on the battlefield. A Hero can just be a hero, and still have plenty of reason to hunt Beasts. They don't need to be wrong. And making them wrong seems to serve the goal of making Beasts always right about everything.

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yes, I never understood why the game says "sane well adjusted Heros won't hunt the nightmare creatures made flesh"

Beasts usually are a threat, or they can starve themselves and just be a petty jerk/only target "bad people".

And LGBT Superheroes also isn't a core theme because that's literally every splat in both worlds of darkness. Vampires are LGBT superheroes. Werewolves are LGBT Superheroes. Changelings are very LGBT superheroes. Demons are LGBT superheroes. Mages are LGBT superheroes. Promethean are LGBT superheroes. Deviants are LGBT superheroes. Beasts can be LGBT superheroes, too, but that can't be a core identity.

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Promethean could be read as a trans metaphor. with the Great Work being the long and painful journey of gender transition and the New Dawn being "Passing"


I like the directlessness of Beast. no one tells me what to do.

 

[hyzmarca]

Okay, but how does that mesh with;

Because that seems like going after something that would have been doing nothing and bothering nobody, and poking it with the world's largest stick for no reason.

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I mean, they're still going to kill everyone in their way for being in their way. Ancient monster-gods of the primordial wilderness are not exactly nice. They're the monsters mapmakers were talking about when they wrote "here there be monsters" on their maps. When humans are nothing but ants to you, you're going to treat them like ants. And if you find ants in your yard you're probably going to exterminate them.

 

[SinisterPorpoise]

And if you find ants in your yard you're probably going to exterminate them.

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No?
Not unless they are invasive and dangerous Fire Ants, at which point it feels like the analogy falls apart since the "threat" is coming from the wrong direction.

 

[Konradleijon]

I prefer heroes as good people fighting to protect humanity from a very real, dangerous threat. Does that make the Beasts the bad guys? Some of them. Some of them not. But sometimes good people are on different sides because their allegiances are just incompatible. Two knights serving rival lords can both be good, honorable, just, kind, and compassionate, and still hack each other to death on the battlefield. A Hero can just be a hero, and still have plenty of reason to hunt Beasts. They don't need to be wrong. And making them wrong seems to serve the goal of making Beasts always right about everything.

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yes say Heros have a reason to hunt Beasts because they are a threat and harm people.

in Tokyo Ghoul the main characters are "ghouls" or flesh eating creatures.

they are hunted by a agency. but Tokyo Ghoul doesn't pretend that they are all terrible people for hunting the flesh eating monsters. most Ghouls are a threat to humans.

but Heros are treated like crazy for hunting the nightmare monsters wearing human suites who physiologically torment people and physically torment people.

anyone who dares to hunt Beasts is seen as wrong despite Beasts being a threat

 

[Queen-in-yellow]

I should probably be making a new thread for this but how do people here feel about Curseborn?

The new Dark Urban Fantasy game was created by Onyxpath with Rose Bailey writing up the setting bible as well as using their Storypath Ultra system?

 

[OctarineShrike]

I should probably be making a new thread for this but how do people here feel about Curseborn?

The new Dark Urban Fantasy game was created by Onyxpath with Rose Bailey writing up the setting bible as well as using their Storypath Ultra system?

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Curious but have no ideas what's what/haven't been able to find a consolidated what we know yet.

 

[Queen-in-yellow]

Curious but have no ideas what's what/haven't been able to find a consolidated what we know yet.

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I mean we've gotten a lot of info this month and last we already have a list of the families and lineages, The curse system is similar to Scions Divinity Dice, and the system is designed around single-family play or mixed-family play.

The only problem as you mentioned is I can't seem to find all the info summarized into one spot seeing as most of the info drop are done via livestreams and podcasts though taking a look at some of the threads in other places here are some of the summarized stuff.

Spoiler: How Curseborne works

Curseborne is an urban fantasy game using Storypath Ultra system (free overview of system here), with a focus on being part of the monster mash instead of human. You can play as a single monster type, or as a mixed group. At the highest level, all Accursed have a few things in common. The most important of which is Entanglement and Curse Dice. Entanglement is ... basically Blood Potency for the game. How strong your Curse is. It determines how many curse dice you have, and adds to a few different rolls.

Curse dice are your MP-equivalent. They are used to power various effects, including the ability to curse random people in casual settings. Anytime you take an Action against someone, you can spend a curse die and cursebind them as a Trick, which can do things like make wounds unhealable, bad luck, and more. Sometimes, the effect requires you to just have X amount in your dice pool (holding) instead of spending a point (bleeding).
You can gain curse dice by doing favors for your Family, whenever your group comes together to solve a problem, or whenever you fulfill your Damnation's urge (feeding, etc)

The downside of this is that the amount of curse dice in your pool? Its used as part of all your rolls, and bad things happen when they roll well. The more curse dice you have, the more trouble. Not added as extra dice, but just a normal part of the dice pool.

Everyone also has access to five dots of Edges, Momentum, etc. Check out the link above for more info on those.

Every character is made of three paths - lineage, family, and role. Each Path provides you with attribute dots in the three categories, skill dots in three skills, a Contact (equivalent of Contacts/Allies in other games), and a Bond with another PC. If you pick Lineage or Family as your "major" path, you get extra attribute and skill dots for that path, and a little better inheritance (innate supernatural powers). Role is basically just your basic, real world profession and doesn't offer anything beyond the basics here, and cannot be a major path.

Lineages currently come in five flavors - Hungry, Dead, Primal, Outcast, and Sorcerer, with room for more. I personally really, really would like to see one for created beings - golems, cursed dolls, robots, zombies, clones and homoculi, etc. Maybe the option will be available as a stretch goal on the inevitable kickstarter? But moving on! Every Lineage provides the following additional stuff - Damnation, Torment, Inheritance, and starting spell selection / Practices.

Damnation determines both what happens when you hit 0 curse dice, and a Lineage-specific way for you to regain curse dice. Hitting 0 curse dice is always a choice - there's no way to lose curse dice accidentily or offensively - and given that it sometimes activates other abilities that woiuld normally require you to bleed curse, it can be used tactically as well. Example - the Primals shapeshift into an attack form for free upon hitting 0 curse dice, so bleeding dice to buff before combat, and then regain curse dice through inflicting aggravated wounds on your enemies is a possible tactic. If you cause your party trouble while indulging your Damnation's method of regaining dice, you gain an additional curse die or a Momentum.

Torments are roleplay prompts that generate Momentum - you pick one from an option of two provided by the Lineage, and design a personalized one. These function similarly to Virtue/Vice or Nature/Demeanor in certain other games.

Inheritances are classic monster movie abilities core to that lineage - shapeshifting, going ghost, etc. One thing to note is that they come with drawbacks. Often as Complications on your rolls in certain situations.

Lineage also provides a single pre-determined spell and a choice of three foundational spells from three affinity Practices (which are just a set of five thematically linked foundational spells). It was mentioned that there are higher leveled spells, but how they work as opposed to the foundational spells hasn't been covered. Sometimes, the spells may rely on an Inheritance - for example, the Dead's Practice of Incorporeality requires you to be, well, incorporeal first.

It should be noted that every Lineage also has a pair of Edges that only members of that Lineage can take.

Family is like picking a specialization for your lineage. As a minor path, you get a specific way of feeding your Damnation that's more effective - you get an additional curse die by feeding in line with your family's taste, and this is in addition to the base die and trouble-causing Damnations normally afford, so its possible to get 2 curse die and a Momentum from indulging your Damnation. You also get a choice from three Motifs - specializations for your magic. Spells come with tags, and motifs allow you to enhance the spells with appropriate tags. You can target additional people by bleeding a die with Emotion spells, for instance, or inflict an additional condition when you use Psychic spells. One thing to note, however? Every Family we've seen so far has had at least one option that lets you cast certain kinds of spells without bleeding a curse die. Which means you can easily spam them at no cost. You start with one motif, but can purchase the others at a later date.

You can pick either Lineage or Family as a major path - which just means more attribute/skill dots, and some additional inheritances. This might enhance existing Inheritances, or it might be an entirely new ability.

Spoiler: Families and Lineages

The Dead. Yearns for a sensation that never quite satisfies.

--The Shades. They are about sadness and misery. omens of ill fortune. They seek out the guilty and "deserving" of misery...and give it to them!
--The Wardens. Cult mentality around their Family. Consider themselves protectors, so they seek out desperation. They just *might* cause problems in order to fix them.
--The Furies. "The 'fuck around and find out' group." Their urge is vengeance. Ghost Rider.
--The Poltergeists. All about fear. Not just jump scares; they want dread. Will often try to use their powers to teach valuable lessons...but that's just trying to make the best of a bad situation.
--The Mavens. Exhilaration and thrill. Can be pleasant and joyful, but can be dangerous and escalating "thrill seeking." Pushing someone out of a window and basking in the "rush" of free falling (to their death) would count.
--The Zeds. A bit different. They yearn less for an emotion than for "endings." Closure and finality. Easiest way to do this? Kill people! Literally a company of assassins.

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The Hungry. Never satisfied when eating.

--The Black Hearts: found family made up of those who broke away from their original family's feeding restrictions. They eat emotions. They can be anarchic and a little bit "mercenary." Also called Dhampir.
--Gaki: Necromancers, who can bargain with AND eat ghosts.
--Heirs: Those who Rule the rulers. likely to foster and build community, but likely to do so for selfish reasons. Rich.
--House Bathory: Hedonists. "A little bloody and a little fighty, because you need to spill blood to bathe in it." Pretentious, believe themselves to be descended from royalty, but don't actually claim leadership.
--Iscariots: claim to be descended from Judas Iscariot, the betrayer of Jesus. Rebels with a cause. will fight for what's "right," but may be a bit delusional about just how "right" they are. Would rather "burn it all down" than let things stand as they are.
--Vorare: Infernalists. Pacts with Demons. Eat Souls. Driven to make the world a better place (for the most part.) Desire to break their Curse
--Ascetics: Knowledge hoarders/brokers. Pyramid scheme, knowledge is tithed UP, but rarely trickles back down. Not TECHNICALLY structured lie a pyramid, but still functions like an MLM

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The Primal. Fights the creature inside that will kill those you love most.

--Eight Hands: Spider shifters. They keep secrets, weave webs of conspiracy and networks of informants.
--Get of Lyka: Wolf shifters. They're cursed by anger, and made a deal with the Creature to get back at an oppressor.
--Hydes: Born from Dr. Jekyll and his desire to bottle the creature and use it to his own purposes. Now they become inhuman creatures and can bottle their spells for later use.
--Raptors: Bird/reptile shifters. They seek the truth. Claim to be the oldest of all the Primal. They tend to be planners, calculating and brutal. (They mention being able to turn into a dragon.)
--Spawn of Vodnik: Aquatic shifters (frogs, merfolk, fish, sharks). They are sneaky, fighty, and cultivate a provincial attitude so that people will underestimate them.
--Sphinx: Cat shifters. Cursed by pride. They act like cats in that they act as rulers, and like to "play with their prey." They are much more sinister than the rest of the families.

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The Outcasts. Outcasts are people who's distant ancestors were exiled from the Outside - from heaven, hell, and everything between. Could be anything.
Doesn't have to be blood relationship - it could actually pass onto an adopted child - you need to have a familial relation, even if not biologically.

--Battleground Angels - Militant group who actively go into battlegrounds and fight the entities therein. Kind of like a resistance group?
--Chimera - People who got Cursed for attempting to become gods by opening gates into Outside. Don't look human, have scorpion tails, weird eyes, horns, etc.
--Nephilim - Travelers. Big emphasis on collecting secrets and traveling Outsides to gain information. Big emphasis on family, moreso than usual.
--Keepers of the Broken Vine - Decided that, as long as they're trapped in mundane world, going to make it a better place. Trying to foster a natural world, create life, communing with nature.
--Munificents - You should try to redeem yourself and become more of a spirit being again. Treat others better than they've been treated. Giving other people what they want. Grant other people's wishes as well - more like an angel or non-evil genie.
--League of Hidden Crossroads - Devil's bargain guys. A family of choice, sign up by coming together and all about tempting people. Wandering through life and being the person people meet at crossroads in life where they offer a choice.

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The Sorcerers. Addicted to magic, and unable to kick the habit.

--Archivists. The Sacrifice secrets. They hoard secrets. Secrets can be Sacrificed by "spilling the beans,' so it's not really a secret anymore, is it? Or by actually destroying the knowledge. They don't have to be "your" secrets! An Archivist could betray a friend by telling theirs secrets...or ruin an antagonists plans by erasing the memory of a vile ritual or spell from existence.
--The Faceless. They Sacrifice recognition or acclaim. They will pull off a daring heist, con, assassination, or the like. As long as no one -NO ONE- knows they did it, they have Sacrificed that recognition or acclaim. It has to be something illegal, as the risk of getting caught is part of the Sacrifice.
--The Network. A "tried and true" pyramid scheme. They Sacrifice connections to other people. They network with other people, and bring more and more into their group, cultivating relationships...for the express purpose of "burning" them up to fuel their magic. (There are "very strict rules" against doing this to other Accursed...but "there's always someone..."
--The Premier. A wealthy family, they collect fame, wealth, and power. They Sacrifice time and energy. They volunteer and promote charities a lot. It *is* a Sacrifice! They do not have much free time or personal space or privacy! And the family isn't "nobody has to work a day in their lives" wealthy, just "everybody has a pretty reliable safety net" wealthy.
--The Reeves. They Sacrifice life death. But! It is very important to them to do it in harmony with nature. Weeding a garden, cutting back overgrowth, culling a herd all Sacrifice life. Saving a life or working a suicide hotline are examples of Sacrificing death. Reeves honor the natural cycle of life and death.
--The Unburdened. They Sacrifice all their worldly possessions. If they get something, they either share it with their Family or Sacrifice it. Admittedly, access to magic can make living without "things" a somewhat more practical (and even comfortable) lifestyle choice!

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The only thing that's pretty unknown is when the Kickstarter is out seeing as the manuscript for it was done months ago. (Chances are it may take a while seeing as they have stuff for exalted right after their independent project is done.

 

[Renu]

Some Lineages seem a bit off, like Gaki for necromancers (and not have them as Dead)? Why use that word, it makes no sense with the actual Gaki. Also, seeing Furies as undead is kind of weird. Like, yeah, they work in the underworld, but shouldn't they be Outcasts? And it's weird seeing greek stuff in a setting where Abrahamic religions apparently are the actual real stuff, what with the Iscariot and angels and Nephilims (who shouldn't be Outcasts since they're from earth and that's precisely the issue).

Also, Beast has made me wary of anything with "Will often try to use their powers to teach valuable lessons" wrt monsters...

Also also, both the Dead and Hungry (and debatably the Sorcerers since they're addicts) have a theme of never being satisfied. Why have two things with basically the same theme?

 

[Queen-in-yellow]

I do note that some people agree with the Gaki part unsure if they'll fix it during the Kickstarter or something.

As for furies, I do think it is fine, Furies do have a connection to the underworld and honestly, I don't see the outsider aspect for it (Whenever the word Fury comes out it tends to be associated with emotional anger so it makes sense in that regard.)

Also, I don't see the Abrahamic being real stuff unless it's mentioned somewhere else?

The closest that hits that is the description being Outcasts are exiles/explorers from "The Outside," a liminal realm that's "heaven, hell, and everything in between" which doesn't confirm the Abrahamic aspect because heaven and hell aren't just Abrahamic.

As for the dead and hungry being unsatisfied I mean they both have different wants and needs with the dead needing emotions and the hungry needing a constant source to feed

 

[Renu]

As for the dead and hungry being unsatisfied I mean they both have different wants and needs with the dead needing emotions and the hungry needing a constant source to feed

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I mean... "The Black Hearts: found family made up of those who broke away from their original family's feeding restrictions. They eat emotions"

Furies are the daughter of Nyx (or the blood of Ouranos spilled on the earth) iirc, so Outsiders would fit more than Dead, since even though they work in Tartarus they aren't dead themselves.

We'll have to see how it goes, but it seems pretty messy at the moment.

As for the Abrahamic stuff, they literally have Judas and the Nephilim (I'll give a freepass for Angels, given we could just consider it generic divine servants).