White Wolf's World of Darkness

[mothematics]

I get that, I just don't think that's really appropriate. Like, confronting yourself is definitely in theme, from Nova dragging Hikaru down in her own darkness, to Sae Sawanoguchi drowning in her own wonders. But external Queens you can go on vision quests too...

That's a Wizards journey. Dream questing to face abstractions of your own worries and troubles, to find abstract exemplars really REALLY isn't magical girl theme space. It's not bad theme space, but it's a wizard's. The magical girl version is always that you had the answer all along inside your own heart, your enemy is yourself (with a couple different versions for what self we're talking about), and it's basically never a self initiated journey.

And the last one is really the sticking point for me. Because it means that all the work going into these Queens should at most show up, like once in an entire campaign. Because enemies-confronting-you-with-your-own-weakness-and-throwing-you-into-a-spiritual-journey-they-think-will-destroy-you-but-really-strengths-you is specific enough that it should only happen once. And I really don't think the Queens should have any place or purpose outside that one.

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Couple thoughts for you here, not sure they'll change your mind, but hopefully they're at least a new perspective.

I tend to think of magical girls as being the hyperfeminine to the superhero hypermasculine; I've remarked before that superheroes are drag kings [1]​: that is to say, they are performances of gender in the extreme. Magical girls being so similar to superheroes, it then holds that they're performances of extreme femininity as a source of power. Part of what differentiates this from the idea of the superhero as the hypermasculine is that magical girls are specifically girls - they haven't grown up yet. So magical girls in this sense are about performing as-of-yet unrealized womanhood as a form of empowerment.

The Queens are flawed, older answers that aren't of the Princesses' generation, but that also means that they necessarily have another role. A very simple, very important one for girls: they're not just older societal paradigms, they're (literal) role models.

Some girls have bands and music that they obsess over, emotional rock stars that teach them how to sing about love and about despair. Some have friends who teach them about loyalty and pain. Some have adults that demonstrate how life can be worth living to help people. All of them are to be idolized; emulated; and ultimately found restraining. What I'm saying is, the emotional attachment to the Queens matters, because they're things that you have to try and be like, because sometimes what a girl needs is to try and be someone else, on her way to being an adult. And ultimately she has to outgrow it. [2]​

In that sense, I think questing after the Queens for answers is just approaching your idols - your favored celebrity, the cool girl in school you ask for advice once in a blue moon - and getting an answer. It's the mundane made mythic. The idea that it's out of line for a magical girl, then, when it's just a refraction of what being a real girl is like - which is what magical girls are about - strikes me as close-minded. I can imagine Usagi having a vision from the echo of Princess Serenity, you know? It's not a big stretch.

(And even if it were, would that really matter? Genres can stand to wobble a little; it doesn't really kill the idea of "you are a magical girl" to go on a vision quest because wizards do it. So do plenty of culture heroes across the world that are distinctly non-wizardly. I wouldn't say that magical girls are so far from cultural heroes anyway, on a conceptual level.)

[1] Taking the converse of this is delightfully interesting, as well. I think there's about as much distance between a man and a superhero of masculinity as there is between a man and a woman, or a girl and a magical girl - they're near Platonic constructs of social approach, power and influence. If you want to Miracleman it, magical girls are the goddesses of womanhood, literally, spiritually, physically above - new deities for and of girls, which then begs the question of what that actually means. The closest explorations in these grounds that I've seen of this are from @Aleph's Sailor Moon fanfic and @open_sketchbook's anarcho-feminist punk magical girl RPG. Both are pretty cool actually.

[2] Of course, that would mean that the ultimate end-state of a Princess is to become her own Queen - and I definitely support that, after having chatted up @EarthScorpion about it.

 

[TheLastOne]

Couple thoughts for you here, not sure they'll change your mind, but hopefully they're at least a new perspective.

I tend to think of magical girls as being the hyperfeminine to the superhero hypermasculine; I've remarked before that superheroes are drag kings [1]​: that is to say, they are performances of gender in the extreme. Magical girls being so similar to superheroes, it then holds that they're performances of extreme femininity as a source of power. Part of what differentiates this from the idea of the superhero as the hypermasculine is that magical girls are specifically girls - they haven't grown up yet. So magical girls in this sense are about performing as-of-yet unrealized womanhood as a form of empowerment.

The Queens are flawed, older answers that aren't of the Princesses' generation, but that also means that they necessarily have another role. A very simple, very important one for girls: they're not just older societal paradigms, they're (literal) role models.

Some girls have bands and music that they obsess over, emotional rock stars that teach them how to sing about love and about despair. Some have friends who teach them about loyalty and pain. Some have adults that demonstrate how life can be worth living to help people. All of them are to be idolized; emulated; and ultimately found restraining. What I'm saying is, the emotional attachment to the Queens matters, because they're things that you have to try and be like, because sometimes what a girl needs is to try and be someone else, on her way to being an adult. And ultimately she has to outgrow it. [2]​

In that sense, I think questing after the Queens for answers is just approaching your idols - your favored celebrity, the cool girl in school you ask for advice once in a blue moon - and getting an answer. It's the mundane made mythic. The idea that it's out of line for a magical girl, then, when it's just a refraction of what being a real girl is like - which is what magical girls are about - strikes me as close-minded. I can imagine Usagi having a vision from the echo of Princess Serenity, you know? It's not a big stretch.

(And even if it were, would that really matter? Genres can stand to wobble a little; it doesn't really kill the idea of "you are a magical girl" to go on a vision quest because wizards do it. So do plenty of culture heroes across the world that are distinctly non-wizardly. I wouldn't say that magica girls are so far from cultural heroes anyway, on a conceptual level.)

[1] Taking the converse of this is delightfully interesting, as well. I think there's about as much distance between a man and a superhero of masculinity as there is between a man and a woman, or a girl and a magical girl - they're near Platonic constructs of social approach, power and influence. If you want to Miracleman it, magical girls are the goddesses of womanhood, literally, spiritually, physically above - new deities for and of girls, which then begs the question of what that actually means. In that sense, there's as much distance between a girl and a magical girl, as there is between a man and a superhero, almost literally speaking. The closest explorations in these grounds that I've seen of this are from @Aleph's Sailor Moon fanfic and @open_sketchbook's anarcho-feminist punk magical girl RPG. Both are pretty cool actually.

[2] Of course, that would mean that the ultimately end-state of a Princess is to become her own Queen - and I definitely support that, after having chatted up @EarthScorpion about it.

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That sort of strikes me as an answer in search of a question, though.

I don't disagree with the basic premise - Magical Girl as a genre does treat femininity as self-empowering. Beauty is about feeling good about yourself, about armoring yourself. Friends are a source of strength and purpose rather then a liability. Many superheroes are prosecuted or outcasts in some sense, or alternatively they're dominating alphas who demand respect. Most Magical Girls are socially involved, with a circle of friends and family. And while they might be incredible at something within that circle, they don't use it to put themselves above others.

But that very reliability means that the Queens fail to fit there. Queen Serenity is dead, with an upload in the Lunar Computers, and Sailor Moon gets information and maybe closure from it, but she doesn't look up to the shadow of a ghost. She looks up to Sailor V, but ultimately discovers Sailor V is someone just like her.

Idols should be relatable. Any distance or rose glasses you wear about them should be self-inflicted. They absolutely shouldn't be abstract beings, because humanity and thinking humanity is GOOD and desirable are front and center.

 

[Shwaggy]

I'm looking for some Changeling 2.0 information, so I'm hoping this is the right place to ask and that someone can help.

My group is getting ready to start a mixed nWOD 2.0 campaign (set in 1882 Dodge City, an era I didn't know tons about outside of Hollywood stuff, but reading up I've been getting more and more excited). Anyway, I'm wanting to play a changeling (wizened gameplayer), but since the 2.0 pdf isn't out yet we've been pulling information with playtest sources, and filling in with 1.0 where needed.

My issue comes in with Courts, Mantle, and Contracts. My friend got a big list of contracts for 2.0, but none seemed to be court affiliated. He also got me a list of merits, but Mantle wasn't there at all. So I'm wondering if anyone has info on how the Courts are set up in 2.0 (Especially the nonstandard ones, like Dusk if possible), how Mantle is working, and whether there even are Court contracts anymore? Anything you've got would be great, or if you can point me at a good resource. I don't know if it's just my Google-fu derping, but everything I've found is either really early speculation, or doesn't actually describe the mechanics.

And if anyone just wants to talk Changeling, I'm up for it. (Or if you have any nifty Dodge City factoids that I can work in!) Only played once before, and I don't think I got in the right spirit of it, so I'm trying to do better this time around.

 

[Lealope]

The magical girl version is always that you had the answer all along inside your own heart,

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Uh...

The Queen of Diamonds could tell you what a perfect Diamonds would do, but she won't tell you what to do. It's not in their nature to tell you what you must do,

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Maybe I'm not getting the specifics but that seems to be exactly what Eathscorpion is saying. The Queens don't have the answers. Only you do.

You might find the ghost of an ancient Magical Girl, or one whose copied a fragment of her mind into an A.I. stack, or the like. And it can tell you secrets once before finally passing on, or it's only complete enough to talk about one thing, or the like.

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And like, this doesn't seem entirely irreconcilable with this:

They know they've been dead a long, long time and been trapped in a dream prison. That's why they'd just help you work out what you should do - and why the act of finding them would put problems in your way which have applicable metaphors for your problems in the waking world.

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Which says to me that the answers really were within you all along and that the Queens just help you ask the right questions. It's the journey to them that gives you what you need, not the destination. The real wisdom was the lessons you learned along the way, if you will.

 

[gamer50018]

What people who know what "we're" doing?

No one knows what they're doing. There's no one to tell you what to do - and if there was, it'd be completely against the point. There are no quest-givers, no hand-holders, no people with a great plan to fix the world which is for certain going to work and not the plan of power-hungry elders.

And this is the nWoD. There shouldn't be. You've done something wrong if there are.

The funniest thing is?

You want the Queen of Mirrors. You want someone who can tell you the future and tell you you're the chosen one and you're certainly going to save the world for realisies. Or maybe you want the Queen of Tears, who "actually knows what she's doing" and isn't insane. They're the ones who can provide the hand-holding you want.

They're antagonists for a reason.

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If that is what you got from what I said, there's no point in talking. Sorry for wanting someone who could actually be a person instead of a plot device.

 

[mothematics]

If that is what you got from what I said, there's no point in talking. Sorry for wanting someone who could actually be a person instead of a plot device.

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No, you want easy answers. You said as much last page - the thought of no right answers being available had you invoke TVTropeisms. Don't act like you've been arguing otherwise.

 

[linkhyrule5]

If the Queens could be people, then there would be no point to Princesses.

The only valid reason for a powerful, benevolent entity to not save the world for you is "they literally can't", after all.

(Also, I totally disagree with the idea that idols have to be 'real'. An unreachable ideal and an impossible idol aren't all that much different.)

 

[TheLastOne]

Uh...



Maybe I'm not getting the specifics but that seems to be exactly what Eathscorpion is saying. The Queens don't have the answers. Only you do.



And like, this doesn't seem entirely irreconcilable with this:



Which says to me that the answers really were within you all along and that the Queens just help you ask the right questions. It's the journey to them that gives you what you need, not the destination. The real wisdom was the lessons you learned along the way, if you will.

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You're spaghetti-posting to pull things out of context here, to ignore my greater point. But just tackling what you did grab...

Your mother's ghost can tell you she never blamed you before moving on, it can't tell you how to be a good Diamond. An A.I. can tell you some ancient bit of lore the long dead hero thought needed to never be forgot, but can't do anything but dredge up dead records in the end. And neither of them are abstract anything.

Like, I think the Queens, except the Queen of Tears, should be gone. And not replaced. They sit in a narrative space that should not exist and take up room in a limited fangame that's precious and should have been used elsewhere. And even The Queen of Tears should be an optional explicitly optional element, because she has no place in a game where she isn't the villain, and having her around if you aren't using a Dark Kingdom just confuses the narrative.

 

[mothematics]

Idols should be relatable. Any distance or rose glasses you wear about them should be self-inflicted.

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Evidently I don't really agree, and neither do any of the countless young girls that have idolized someone they don't really know, like literally anyone who's looked up to a musician or actor or pretty upperclassman they don't really know. In any event, that's kind of the point of idolization: you're not actually seeing all of someone. You're just seeing the best parts that you want to see.

You're spaghetti-posting to pull things out of context here, to ignore my greater point. But just tackling what you did grab...

Your mother's ghost can tell you she never blamed you before moving on, it can't tell you how to be a good Diamond. An A.I. can tell you some ancient bit of lore the long dead hero thought needed to never be forgot, but can't do anything but dredge up dead records in the end. And neither of them are abstract anything.

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You have completely missed the point.

Like, I think the Queens, except the Queen of Tears, should be gone. And not replaced. They sit in a narrative space that should not exist and take up room in a limited fangame that's precious and should have been used elsewhere. And even The Queen of Tears should be an optional explicitly optional element, because she has no place in a game where she isn't the villain, and having her around if you aren't using a Dark Kingdom just confuses the narrative.

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can't have uncomfortably dark shades of gray in the World of Darkness amirite checkmate atheists

I'm sorry, but no, this is more than a little ridiculous. I don't see how it "confuses the narrative" (whatever you mean by that) and unfortunately, at this point I'm not sure you really have the best grasp on what the Queens are, what they are supposed to be, and what they actually do.

 

[TheLastOne]

Evidently I don't really agree, and neither do any of the countless young girls that have idolized someone they don't really know, like literally anyone who's looked up to a musician or actor or pretty upperclassman they don't really know. In any event, that's kind of the point of idolization: you're not actually seeing all of someone. You're just seeing the best parts that you want to see.

You have completely missed the point.


can't have uncomfortably dark shades of gray in the World of Darkness amirite checkmate atheists

I'm sorry, but no, this is more than a little ridiculous. I don't see how it "confuses the narrative" (whatever you mean by that) and unfortunately, at this point I'm not sure you really have the best grasp on what the Queens are, what they are supposed to be, and what they actually do.

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That they're archetypes you deal with on vision quests? There's a bit more to it, but that's the core of what they're for.

You can understand something and still think it's wrong. They belong in a different game. There's a reason both old and new mage have developed a ton of word count to such things, created legacies and traditions focused around exploring that idea-space.

 

[cmwatford]

I'm looking for some Changeling 2.0 information, so I'm hoping this is the right place to ask and that someone can help.

My group is getting ready to start a mixed nWOD 2.0 campaign (set in 1882 Dodge City, an era I didn't know tons about outside of Hollywood stuff, but reading up I've been getting more and more excited). Anyway, I'm wanting to play a changeling (wizened gameplayer), but since the 2.0 pdf isn't out yet we've been pulling information with playtest sources, and filling in with 1.0 where needed.

My issue comes in with Courts, Mantle, and Contracts. My friend got a big list of contracts for 2.0, but none seemed to be court affiliated. He also got me a list of merits, but Mantle wasn't there at all. So I'm wondering if anyone has info on how the Courts are set up in 2.0 (Especially the nonstandard ones, like Dusk if possible), how Mantle is working, and whether there even are Court contracts anymore? Anything you've got would be great, or if you can point me at a good resource. I don't know if it's just my Google-fu derping, but everything I've found is either really early speculation, or doesn't actually describe the mechanics.

And if anyone just wants to talk Changeling, I'm up for it. (Or if you have any nifty Dodge City factoids that I can work in!) Only played once before, and I don't think I got in the right spirit of it, so I'm trying to do better this time around.

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The playtest isn't valid anymore. The dev for the original draft of changeling 2e is no longer part of OPP. You'll want the previews from the Kickstarter. The book is completely different from what was in the playtest documents. The pdfs cover the entire book but are technically only available to those who backed the project. I'd love to link them to you but that's probably not kosher.

 

[Skelm]

The playtest isn't valid anymore. The dev for the original draft of changeling 2e is no longer part of OPP. You'll want the previews from the Kickstarter. The book is completely different from what was in the playtest documents. The pdfs cover the entire book but are technically only available to those who backed the project. I'd love to link them to you but that's probably not kosher.

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Did they get rid of the infinitely re-spawning hunters?

 

[Shwaggy]

The playtest isn't valid anymore. The dev for the original draft of changeling 2e is no longer part of OPP. You'll want the previews from the Kickstarter. The book is completely different from what was in the playtest documents. The pdfs cover the entire book but are technically only available to those who backed the project. I'd love to link them to you but that's probably not kosher.

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Ah. That explains why the playtest information Google gave me was so very different than the stuff filtered through Mind's Eye Society my friend got. So all the info is in pdfs available to backers, and it's just the full book pdf they're still working on? Because if I can get access to that by pre-ordering the pdf version now, I'm totally willing to.

 

[cmwatford]

Ah. That explains why the playtest information Google gave me was so very different than the stuff filtered through Mind's Eye Society my friend got. So all the info is in pdfs available to backers, and it's just the full book pdf they're still working on? Because if I can get access to that by pre-ordering the pdf version now, I'm totally willing to.

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It's too late to back the Kickstarter but there is a compilation pdf of the previews floating around. Google is your friend.

 

[Shwaggy]

It's too late to back the Kickstarter but there is a compilation pdf of the previews floating around. Google is your friend.

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Pre-ordering through Kickstarter doesn't unlock the previews? Lame. I'll keep searching then...not sure why my Google-fu is so weak for this, but I'm sure I'm doing something dumb that I'll kick myself over.

 

[cmwatford]

Pre-ordering through Kickstarter doesn't unlock the previews? Lame. I'll keep searching then...not sure why my Google-fu is so weak for this, but I'm sure I'm doing something dumb that I'll kick myself over.

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Hmm. I didn't know you could preorder through the kickstarter page. I have no idea if that would open up the previews or not.

 

[Bel]

It's too late to back the Kickstarter but there is a compilation pdf of the previews floating around. Google is your friend.

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I think you can 'pre-order' through the backetkit pages. I did that for one of the games (might have been Scion or Trinity) after the kickstarter was finished. Got the backer PDF's that way.

 

[gamer50018]

I give up. Everyone is putting words in my mouth and refusing to listen, so I see no point in continuing.

 

[rikalous]

Pre-ordering through Kickstarter doesn't unlock the previews? Lame. I'll keep searching then...not sure why my Google-fu is so weak for this, but I'm sure I'm doing something dumb that I'll kick myself over.

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If you can't find anything better, I do have the playtest version of Mantle lying around.

As of then, there didn't seem to be Court contracts, as part of them trying to make it easy to homebrew the shit of whatever crazy Courts you wanted. (The Freehold creation example had Courts themed after the Upper Michigan industries of mining, forestry, hunting, and tourism, for instance.) As far as I can tell their role was going to be taken by a merit called Goblin Vow, so if that's on your merit list my info might still be good.

Like, I think the Queens, except the Queen of Tears, should be gone. And not replaced. They sit in a narrative space that should not exist and take up room in a limited fangame that's precious and should have been used elsewhere. And even The Queen of Tears should be an optional explicitly optional element, because she has no place in a game where she isn't the villain, and having her around if you aren't using a Dark Kingdom just confuses the narrative.

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If you aren't using a Dark Kingdom? Alhambra's the Dark Kingdom, and it's a pretty prominent part of the setting. Granted, if you're avoiding Alhambra entirely you're probably avoiding Tears as well, but I'm not sure that's what you mean?

 

[Shwaggy]

If you can't find anything better, I do have the playtest version of Mantle lying around.

As of then, there didn't seem to be Court contracts, as part of them trying to make it easy to homebrew the shit of whatever crazy Courts you wanted. (The Freehold creation example had Courts themed after the Upper Michigan industries of mining, forestry, hunting, and tourism, for instance.) As far as I can tell their role was going to be taken by a merit called Goblin Vow, so if that's on your merit list my info might still be good.
If you aren't using a Dark Kingdom? Alhambra's the Dark Kingdom, and it's a pretty prominent part of the setting. Granted, if you're avoiding Alhambra entirely you're probably avoiding Tears as well, but I'm not sure that's what you mean?

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My friend just came through for me with the compilation. And dang, it really looks like it takes a lot more work to set things up properly in 2.0, what with customizing the Courts' emotions, approaches, rituals, contracts, etc. Looks like Mantle has way more mechanical impact than what it used to, giving stuff like skill bonuses, free merits, even rerolls! Haven't gotten to it yet, but Goblin Vow is mentioned as a separate thing.

Whew, this is more than I expected. Still, plenty of opportunities to make fun stuff. I just pity our ST now...if the other 2.0 systems are anything like this, he's got a ton of work setting up a mixed campaign! I mean, so far we have a Changeling, Beast, and Changing Breed, with one more undecided. Plus I'm sure he'll have to set up at least a basic background for Vamps and Weres in the city. Probably Sin Eaters too, since he really liked those in 1.0. Sheesh.

Anywho, thanks for the help. And again, if anyone just wants to talk Changeling (mechanics or setting), I'm all ears.

 

[cmwatford]

My friend just came through for me with the compilation. And dang, it really looks like it takes a lot more work to set things up properly in 2.0, what with customizing the Courts' emotions, approaches, rituals, contracts, etc. Looks like Mantle has way more mechanical impact than what it used to, giving stuff like skill bonuses, free merits, even rerolls! Haven't gotten to it yet, but Goblin Vow is mentioned as a separate thing.

Whew, this is more than I expected. Still, plenty of opportunities to make fun stuff. I just pity our ST now...if the other 2.0 systems are anything like this, he's got a ton of work setting up a mixed campaign! I mean, so far we have a Changeling, Beast, and Changing Breed, with one more undecided. Plus I'm sure he'll have to set up at least a basic background for Vamps and Weres in the city. Probably Sin Eaters too, since he really liked those in 1.0. Sheesh.

Anywho, thanks for the help. And again, if anyone just wants to talk Changeling (mechanics or setting), I'm all ears.

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Does your book split arcadian contracts into six different Regailia and Common and Royal? If not you have the playtest version. Does it have the bit of art on the first page?

 

[Shwaggy]

Does your book split arcadian contracts into six different Regailia and Common and Royal? If not you have the playtest version. Does it have the bit of art on the first page?

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...No art, no mention of royal contracts, and the filename is "2E Playtest Compilation v6". Blah, I'm an idiot.

 

[TheLastOne]

If you aren't using a Dark Kingdom? Alhambra's the Dark Kingdom, and it's a pretty prominent part of the setting. Granted, if you're avoiding Alhambra entirely you're probably avoiding Tears as well, but I'm not sure that's what you mean?

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It's a dark kingdom, but it's sort of limiting to treat it as 'the.' A Dark Kingdom is one of the generic enemy types for a magical girl.

And Dark Kingdoms aren't the only generic enemy type.

Honestly, it would be best to take note from Hunter, and have the tools to quickly build customized generic enemies, and just treat Alhambra as an example Dark Kingdom.

 

[SinisterPorpoise]

V5 is coming, and apparently already has problems, what does everyone think of it and what would you change about it if you could?

 

[Jace911]

V5 is coming, and apparently already has problems, what does everyone think of it and what would you change about it if you could?

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i mean fewer nazis and transphobes seems like the obvious answer