Why do your drone doing this? What is the reason? Just now I'm the commander of the army of stasis. Drones have no time for this shit to be honest. It's either the Wyrm attack or maintaining the masquerade because technocracy literally dead or it is absolutely insane spirits of WILD. Seriously why your drone engaged in the destruction of the family business?

And yes drones, it is not Fomorians. If you kill enough drones, Weaver or try to kill you, or retreat . Really very few people able to hear the OneSong. And even less suitable as a material for the drone.

I'm definitely biased here. But Weaver, have motives besides "Argh crush dreams! Kill the fairies!", Although given that changelings sometimes try to take over the city causing uncontrolled vortex of WILD ...

As for the subject matter, I am shocked. No really, the book of madness as I heard good handles, Nefadi. I myself have not read it. But I see a serious discord between the themes of the Beast. I would be okay with all the evil interpretation.

The relationship between the Weaver and the Worm isn't that antagonistic in the direction from the Weaver to the Wyrm - the Wyrm hates the Weaver, but the degradations of the Wyrm weaken and degrade others till they're too weak to resist the the Weaver's web. The Weaver hates the Wyld, and things like individualism and identity.

Replacing personalized individualistic mini-institutions with vast faceless ones is pretty much inherently in the interests of the Weaver. Though in a Mage game, what Stasis is, and what The Weaver is, is not exactly the same. They're very close though, and Drones still represent the creeping reach of order crushing the individual. Order is the enemy all throughout the oWoD. You need order, but one of the themes that runs almost universal through nearly all of the lines is that the forces of Order have gone out of control/their proper bounds, and that you need to oppose them, even while resisting untamed chaos and pointless nihilistic destruction.
 
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So.....

I'm looking into getting into Old Mage and was wondering what books people would suggest getting.

Especially in terms of the corebook, because looking at Wikipidea, there's a couple different editions.
 
On a (new) Mages note, I was just trying to imagine the progression for the character I mentioned before as she gets older. She's (out of the character creation box) Life 3/Fate 2/Spirit 1, 'somewhat along the way (a few years, a year? I dunno)' a Life 4/ Fate and Spirit 2, but I'm trying to figure out if she'd diversify, because there are a lot of goodies out there and I think her mindset might be good for some of the low-level/subtler stuff of the other Arcanas. She's the action movie hero, so she's not going to be shooting fireballs with Forces, for instance, but listening into radio waves could help. Or dispelling magic with Prime, or etc.

Just trying to imagine her growing as a Mage (assuming she doesn't wind up dead, of course :p) and how she might do that.
 
The relationship between the Weaver and the Worm isn't that antagonistic in the direction from the Weaver to the Wyrm - the Wyrm hates the Weaver, but the degradations of the Wyrm weaken and degrade others till they're too weak to resist the the Weaver's web. The Weaver hates the Wyld, and things like individualism and identity.

Replacing personalized individualistic mini-institutions with vast faceless ones is pretty much inherently in the interests of the Weaver. Though in a Mage game, what Stasis is, and what The Weaver is, is not exactly the same. They're very close though, and Drones still represent the creeping reach of order crushing the individual. Order is the enemy all throughout the oWoD. You need order, but one of the themes that runs almost universal through nearly all of the lines is that the forces of Order have gone out of control/their proper bounds, and that you need to oppose them, even while resisting untamed chaos and pointless nihilistic destruction.
At this point I think is reasonable to ask where you take your vision of Weaver. I am interested in your sources, can our small divergence of views on Weaver caused by different sources.
 
So.....

I'm looking into getting into Old Mage and was wondering what books people would suggest getting.

Especially in terms of the corebook, because looking at Wikipidea, there's a couple different editions.

I'd say wait a month or two for M20 to go on public release. It's pretty damn comprehensive when it comes to MtAs. And the M20 Quickstart which is out is pretty good and a free PDF.

As for other books, I highly recommend with Guides to the Traditions and Technocracy respectively. They flesh out both groups to a pretty good degree, especially in the case of the Technocracy which had never gotten much in the way of love in the Rulebooks before M20.

The Rev Ed Tradition and Conventions Books run the gambit from okay to pretty good.

Initiates of the Art is a favorite of mine. It focuses on the newly Awakened and what they all go through and it's something I recommend to new people and players.

Another favorite, Orphan's Survival Guide, deals with the mages that fall between the cracks of the Traditions, Conventions and Crafts.

Forged by Dragon's Fire is all about magical devices, items, etc. and is in the top five of many MtAs book lists for good reason.

Book of Worlds and Infinite Tapestry, both books deal with all the realms beyond Earth. But they're from different editions and because this is MtAs its a decisive matter. Book of Worlds is the older and pre-Avatar Storm book, Infinite Tapestry is post. In my opinion both are good for the setting of the edition they are in. Which setting you want to use will dictate which book you should get.

Bitter Road, as with Initiates, this book covers a specific group of mages, the middle level ones as well as how they've reacted to the Avatar Storm and the loss of the Masters, forcing these people to step into those leadership roles.

The historical lines, Dark Ages: Mage and Mage: the Sorcerer's Crusade are also worth taking a look at. DAM has only two books but requires Dark Ages: Vampire to play though I think DriveThruRPG has the rules you need for free. Also DAM uses a different and an easier Magic system and can actually better place for new players to start off.

MtSC is its own line set in the 1400's, during the early years of the Nine Traditions, Order of Reason (the predecessors of the Technocracy) and the Ascension War. I really like that line but I won't talk about it unless you want to know more about it.
 
So.....

I'm looking into getting into Old Mage and was wondering what books people would suggest getting.

Especially in terms of the corebook, because looking at Wikipidea, there's a couple different editions.

If you have to get one book, get Mage Revised. If two, Mage Revised and Mage Second Edition.

Mechanically, Revised is the strongest on the whole, but it did involve a number of setting changes and a handful of rule changes that are... not good. You have the ability to pick and choose if you have both, and I vaguely remember second edition being better about example spells, which is key for new players, even though experenced players won't need it.

If you're getting three books... Guide to the Technocracy. Players will invent material for themselves for the Tradition they're a part of, they'll do (some of the) work for you, but you won't have that for your bad guys. Basically, you need Guide to the Technocracy for the same reason you need the Monster Manual.

Four books, add The Book of Worlds, unless you have lots Virtual Adapts or your groups wants to use the Digital Web, in which case you need one of the Digital Web books. Honestly, there are upsides and downsides to both digital web books - Digital Web 2.0 is cleaner and lacks some of the second edition weirdness, but I remember it being somewhat mechanical incomplete.

At seven books (you have Digital Web, Digital Web 2.0, and the Book of Worlds)... Probably Guide to the Traditions. It gives material for the players to fill out their world with, connections you can offer them, politics, and so on. Forged by Dragon's fire might be an alternative, if you have character who want to make things.

After that... there's a lot of interesting books, but nothing that has the same kind of broad use.
 
So, apparently, someone is working on Genius 2E. Now, I'm well aware that the original genius was flawed: it was largely a reaction to nMage lacking the mad science aspects of oMage, its power scale went up to HILARIOUS (time travel, true resurrection, blowing up cities, etc.) without getting into elder levels, its masquerade equivalent was non-functional (as Havoc only kicked in if mortals physically touched your thing - so as long as no mortals get on board, feel free to terrorize the eastern seaboard with your flying doom fortress), and it assumed crossovers but only made the most token effort to allow the worlds to combine (as in "this mage faction and this genius faction both want to rule the world - but they don't conflict because they can't physically notice each other for REASONS")

That said, I feel that Mad Scientists are at least as appropriate as a player splat in a horror game as Vampires, Frankenstein's Monsters, Mummies and so on. As such, what do you feel would need to be done in order to make the game functional?
 
That said, I feel that Mad Scientists are at least as appropriate as a player splat in a horror game as Vampires, Frankenstein's Monsters, Mummies and so on. As such, what do you feel would need to be done in order to make the game functional?

Why bother?

We already have the Abyssal Assistant in Intruders: Encounters with the Abyss, and the weird things people can do with Pyros in Promethean. Like human cloning. And chimerae. And we have the Chieron Corp in Hunter.

All of them are a much better mad scientist thing than Genius, depending on your precise form of mad science wanted.
 
That said, I feel that Mad Scientists are at least as appropriate as a player splat in a horror game as Vampires, Frankenstein's Monsters, Mummies and so on. As such, what do you feel would need to be done in order to make the game functional?
honestly The thematic in Genius always seemed more like Fae than Scientist, Genius inventions work not based on exploiting reality but on stories they tell to explain why their inventions work, genii When they go completely mad become reality warpers that twist everything to how they think it should be, and genii are able to access other worlds that are actually widespread stories or beliefs that turned out to be impossible.
this is just off the top of my head.

EDIT: they also either turn anyone who witnesses too mcuh of their "science" into more genii or into minions.
 
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Why bother?

We already have the Abyssal Assistant in Intruders: Encounters with the Abyss, and the weird things people can do with Pyros in Promethean. Like human cloning. And chimerae. And we have the Chieron Corp in Hunter.

All of them are a much better mad scientist thing than Genius, depending on your precise form of mad science wanted.

While all of them might be better then Genius, that's a strike against genius, not a statement for the strength of what you can do for Mad Science as a gameline with what currently exists.

Abyssal Assistant is an inherently limiting rules-lite setting piece. You deal with their remains, the harm they leave on their path to burnout. They're utterly inappropriate for main characters.

The scientists poking at Promethean's are only mildly better, except that they're place makes them exists to be antagonists to Prometheans. They don't and can't have an independent theme space. They're another face of the world that see you (the Promethean) as an object to exploit and destroy.

Chieron Corp is the closest one, but they remain seriously limited in where they'll fit and what you can do with them. They also have the most robust rules of any of the groups you named, but those are mostly about turning yourself into a bio-punk monster. There's space for that in a Mad Science game, it's a legitimate character choice, but it should not and can not be the whole of the field.

A Mad Scientist gameline needs to support a range of character types. Just to name a few... You should be able to make a Dr. Morbius, Dr. Hyde, the never named time traveler from The Time Machine, Giacomo Rappaccini, Mr. Freeze, with perhaps a Dr. Horrible or two thrown into the mix.

You can't with the Chieron group.
 
By the way, what's the general consensus (among people who actually care and such) about the Imperial Mysteries book?

Edit: Okay, since someone rated me 'funny' I'm assuming I'm about to get an earful?
 
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By the way, what's the general consensus (among people who actually care and such) about the Imperial Mysteries book?

Edit: Okay, since someone rated me 'funny' I'm assuming I'm about to get an earful?

While I don't really care for "Elder" levels of play, I think, for what it was, Imperial Mysteries was pretty OK.
 
That said, I feel that Mad Scientists are at least as appropriate as a player splat in a horror game as Vampires, Frankenstein's Monsters, Mummies and so on. As such, what do you feel would need to be done in order to make the game functional?
The obvious horror-conflict for Genius is "things man was not meant to know". Your player characters seek knowledge, driven by some inner fear or furious desire. Obsessed with uncovering the truth, with developing some new cure or unveiling a brilliant discovery, they become blinded to the fact that their means cannot justify their end... and though the secrets they uncover through their studies may offer them great power and insight, they may be secrets better left unknown. This is the story of Frankenstein, of the Time Traveller, of Doctor Jekyll, of Crawford Tillinghast.

Unfortunately, this is also the story of Mage: The Awakening, a gameline that Genius tries to shit over while desperately aping a different Mage game about how ideas have tremendous power and ignoring self-imposed limitations can let you change the world.
 
The obvious horror-conflict for Genius is "things man was not meant to know". Your player characters seek knowledge, driven by some inner fear or furious desire. Obsessed with uncovering the truth, with developing some new cure or unveiling a brilliant discovery, they become blinded to the fact that their means cannot justify their end... and though the secrets they uncover through their studies may offer them great power and insight, they may be secrets better left unknown. This is the story of Frankenstein, of the Time Traveller, of Doctor Jekyll, of Crawford Tillinghast.

Unfortunately, this is also the story of Mage: The Awakening, a gameline that Genius tries to shit over while desperately aping a different Mage game about how ideas have tremendous power and ignoring self-imposed limitations can let you change the world.

Yeah, if I was making a Mad Scientist game... Well, Mages have access to broad secret wisdom, so Mad Scientists shouldn't. They're not wizards, they don't have the ability to keep pulling out new tricks.

I would instead use something like Skinchangers have, where you have a point buy system you use at the start to build your Pioneer's discovery. So if you're Doctor Jakyll, your discovery, no Discovery because we're making a WoD game and need extra nouns, your Discovery a system of drugs that unlock hidden or alternative aspects of the self, transforming and empowering you. You would develop your Discovery with Innovations, but it would remain a focused thematic technology.

At the same time, while you are a Trailblazer, you sharing your Discovery is stopped or held back by Pitfalls, unique flaws that plague Pioneers that turn the world against their research, burying and destroying their work if let run wild. So Doctor Jakyll's pitfall is that his system of drugs unleashes ultimately self-destructive aspects of self. Mr. Freeze's pitfall is that his work in cryogenics ultimately creates an alien ice world, and adapts people to it - exiling them from ours.

Exiles are the minor attached splat - they're people who have followed a Mad Scientist out of the normal world, and so are plagued by their Pitfall, without the insight or ability to innovate. So if Mr. Freeze saves someones life with his technology, he'll have to be careful and limit it's use, or his subject will become an Exile, who can't live in a world of human warmth anymore. But there's a way to keep yourself from turning into an Exile, you can follow Giovanni Guasconti and repudiate the Mad Scientist who touched your life, becoming his enemy and undermining his work. Becoming a reactionary can save you.

It shouldn't be clear if Mad Scientists are changing reality, accessing some alternative zone, or actually discovering something. Maybe they make their inventions possible, or maybe they were always possible, but some force (the universal unconsciousness?) guides people away from dangerous paths. Their version of Ascension isn't personal, it's called Validation, and it means they've blazed the trail that can be brought it back to mankind, becoming a Prometheus like figure with the fire of knowledge... but they don't get to be the ones to share it with the world. A Validated Pioneer disappears, and then all around the world people start discovering or deducing the principles he's researched.

I wouldn't put in a direct rage system, but a frustrated Pioneer can use his pitfall as a weapon. When Dr. Freeze is stopped from saving his wife, and she's locked forever in an icy sleep, he can rage against the world, and purposefully use his technology as a weapon. Except... except you don't get validated then, or at least it gets a lot harder. You need to bring people into your world to Validate it. When you start using your medical Innovation to make Freeze Rays, well it's safe to say that everyone you touch will become a Giovanni, and work to destroy you and blot your accomplishments from history, to make it as if you never were.
 
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The obvious horror-conflict for Genius is "things man was not meant to know". Your player characters seek knowledge, driven by some inner fear or furious desire. Obsessed with uncovering the truth, with developing some new cure or unveiling a brilliant discovery, they become blinded to the fact that their means cannot justify their end... and though the secrets they uncover through their studies may offer them great power and insight, they may be secrets better left unknown. This is the story of Frankenstein, of the Time Traveller, of Doctor Jekyll, of Crawford Tillinghast.

Unfortunately, this is also the story of Mage: The Awakening, a gameline that Genius tries to shit over while desperately aping a different Mage game about how ideas have tremendous power and ignoring self-imposed limitations can let you change the world.

Someone on SA argued that Genius should be a game of growing up. Of realizing your limitations and abandoning whimsy.

It's a game where the central conflict would be between your desire to better the world and the fact that mad science will not let you. Literally will not let you. Mad Science imposes a comic book status quo. You kill people with it? They come back later. Destroy a city? It strangely gets rebuilt within months. Cure cancer? Too bad it's temporary. It's the horror of growing up and realizing that life is fucking hard and you need to compromise your dreams.
 
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Someone on SA argued that Genius should be a game of growing up. Of realizing your limitations and abandoning whimsy.

It's a game where the central conflict would be between your desire to better the world and the fact that mad science will not let you. Literally will not let you. Mad Science imposes a comic book status quo. You kill people with it? They come back later. Destroy a city? It strangely gets rebuilt within months. Cure cancer? Too bad it's temporary. It's the horror of growing up and realizing that life is fucking hard and you need to compromise your dreams.
Except that that doesnt exactly encourage growing up, blow up a city in one of your fights? it'll be back before sundown, conversely live a decadant life of leisure purely keepimg to yourself and maintaining a few inventions that help you out and you'll probably be happier than most genii.

There's not much to actually encourage action especially if there's no consequences.
 
Someone on SA argued that Genius should be a game of growing up. Of realizing your limitations and abandoning whimsy.

It's a game where the central conflict would be between your desire to better the world and the fact that mad science will not let you. Literally will not let you. Mad Science imposes a comic book status quo. You kill people with it? They come back later. Destroy a city? It strangely gets rebuilt within months. Cure cancer? Too bad it's temporary. It's the horror of growing up and realizing that life is fucking hard and you need to compromise your dreams.

Hmm, that could be interesting (though so could TheLastOne's idea, and I like the idea that the end state for that is 'you create something actually useful even if you don't live to see it') though the question is what that compromise would involve? That'd probably determine how viable it is. If growing up involves realizing life is hard, that you need to compromise your dreams, and then you go all Prospero and give up your power and become an accountant so that you can help detect tax fraud and thereby help the world, it's not going to draw in a lot of players. :p

So it'd depend on the nature of the compromise.
 
Except that that doesnt exactly encourage growing up, blow up a city in one of your fights? it'll be back before sundown, conversely live a decadant life of leisure purely keepimg to yourself and maintaining a few inventions that help you out and you'll probably be happier than most genii.

There's not much to actually encourage action especially if there's no consequences.

Oh, since you'd have Morality there'd be plenty of consequences. The only one who suffers them is you. Ding! Lots of Morality checks for blowing up a city, enjoy your madness and degeneration.
 
Except that that doesnt exactly encourage growing up, blow up a city in one of your fights? it'll be back before sundown, conversely live a decadant life of leisure purely keepimg to yourself and maintaining a few inventions that help you out and you'll probably be happier than most genii.

There's not much to actually encourage action especially if there's no consequences.

Well yes. You can be a manchild forever. You can give up your dreams of changing the world. You can be forever ignored by non-supernatural beings.

Do you want to?
 
Hmm, that could be interesting (though so could TheLastOne's idea, and I like the idea that the end state for that is 'you create something actually useful even if you don't live to see it') though the question is what that compromise would involve? That'd probably determine how viable it is. If growing up involves realizing life is hard, that you need to compromise your dreams, and then you go all Prospero and give up your power and become an accountant so that you can help detect tax fraud and thereby help the world, it's not going to draw in a lot of players. :p

So it'd depend on the nature of the compromise.

It's not about 'not living to see it.' Like, I would probably have a bit where after being Validated they wander off to some other potential world and get to be awesome pulp heroes, because they won the game and it shouldn't be depressing, just like how you tell yourself your Promethean has a great life if he manages to succeed at his pilgrimage.

It's not about making it a sacrifice, though that's part of it. It's about making it not Mad Science.

You face the Pitfall of your work, and show the issues it introduces can and will be overcome. Mad Science is about going where man shouldn't go and being destroyed. If it's somewhere man can go and not be destroyed it is not Mad Science.

You bring others into your work, and other people also work towards your goals, share your vision, even at personal cost. They don't necessarily have to be cursed into becoming Exiles, though the risk is there, but others pay in blood and sweat to make it happen. The Mad Scientist is a lone genius and hermit who is the only one who understand what he does - he death ends his madness, and nobody truly morns him. If others are a part of the enterprise, it isn't Mad Science.

Using his dark works, the Mad Scientist will prove to the world that it should have recognized his genius. He makes it about him - how dare they deny him what is his. If you walk away, and others can achieve the same thing, if it's not about you... then it is not Mad Science. It's just scientific progress.

Validation makes it not about you. No one will see you as the next Einstein, or even Euler. Other people will go where you have gone. To win, you have to let go.
 
Hey, listen! Hey, listen!

There's Beast news.

Read this thing, here, it has words. And words on more words!

http://theonyxpath.com/beastrevisions/

Will it be better? Who knows, but it'll at least be bad in different ways. And it's also nice that they didn't just stick their heads up their rectums.
Well I don't really think it could possibly be worse without going full Racial Holy War, so it'll at least be an improvement. I still might not give them any money, but at least this raises it as a possibility.
 
Meh, I liked it as it was but he did mention clarifying some things, which would be nice. Hopefully things don't change too much. Probably get it either way.
 
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