1d4chan claims that the common way people played the game was via GURPS Mage or back-porting Mage the Awakening rules via the Mage Translation Guide, but... eh. It is a 4chan wiki.

Awakening Magic is simpler and much easier to grok, thus the reason for back-porting. However, it loses some of the awesome that the Ascension Magick can do. But from the veterans of my local gaming community, they played oMage as it is, mainly because they were young rebellious teenagers who railed against the authority of The Man and The Church with MtAs and DtF
 
1d4chan claims that the common way people played the game was via GURPS Mage or back-porting Mage the Awakening rules via the Mage Translation Guide, but... eh. It is a 4chan wiki.
If you want to GURPSify it, you'll have better luck using Thaumatology's Realm Magic system for GURPS 4e. It'll still take a little bit of work, but mostly that system just slots into the Sphere descriptions with minimal effort.
 
And Congratulations. You've just went from someone I thought was confused and hoping could be convinced to someone I'd really rather see stop arguing, because your opinions are clearly so divorced from mine that there is no way you'll ever end up agreeing with anything I do about the game line.

Well, let me put it another way.

I like Mage 20s mechanics. A lot of its writing is kind of bad.

In terms of of how you should start a mage game, find an experienced mage GM and join their game.
 
1 - What is the best way to get into Mage (and understand it - pretty much everything I've read on SV is whizzing over my head)?

The first and biggest question you need to consider is which Mage? [1]

Me, I like them both - although I tend to re-form both games so they're rather refocussed along different design paths. I do talk more about oMage, but that's because a) PQ is an oMage quest and b) people argue a lot more about oMage. It's much harder to get into flaming rows about nMage, and even though I'm not the greatest fan of nMage 2e (and there's no way I'm using the damn GMC rules), I'm just kind of "meh" about it and see no need to switch rules when my houseruled 1e is perfectly serviceable and runs the mode of game I want to run.

(Yes, apparently Awakening has avoided an edition war through the power of apathy)

Bluntly, if I was going to run Ascension, I'd use the Awakening rules with oParadox forwards-ported anyway.

[1] Witch mage lololololololol.
 
The Verbena

The Verbena descend from the practicioners of the old western European religions, prior to the coming of Christianity. They are similar to, and responsible for, the Wicca movement in the modern world. However, during the original Concave, they gained several members of surviving pagan religions, many of whom did not fit in with the 'mainstream.' With Nightshade missing in the Avatar Storm, they have splintered into many factions, most of whom no longer see eye to eye.

The Old Guard

Confusingly, both the Old Guard and the New Wave factions refer to themselves as Verbena, and use derogatory terms for each other. The Old Guard faction claims to maintain the truest traditions to the old days. They hold that nature is wild and bloody, and their rituals reflect this. They often perform magic through blood sacrifice, or at least imitations of it. They are also archetypical witches, and can often be found brewing potions, wearing headdresses of antlers to evoke the Horned God, among other things. They maintain forces of Bygones, some of who were created by the Verenbra, as well as squads of blessed warriors.

They believe that their magic comes from the earth, and that the Technocracy is, through their taming of nature, attempting to kill it. They also believe that unnatural medicine prevents the old ways from properly working on individuals.

The New Wave

The New Wave focuses on the harmony of nature, and their rituals are decidedly clean. They often heal with crystals, homeopathy, and herbal medicine, and typically refuse to use the more bloody or exotic ingredients that the Old Guard favors. While they do not maintain squads of soldiers or packs of Bygones, they are much more integrated with the Wiccan mainstream, and can draw ritual participants from there

They believe that all thing used to live in harmony, which was shattered by Man and his patriarchal civilization thus weakening natural magic. They believe that the Technocracy is only the latest manifestation of this in history. They also believe that modern medicine is poisoning its patients, making it more difficult for them to be properly healed.

The Sons of Mithras

The Sons of Mithras do not solely worship Mithras, but are instead the survivors of several Roman warrior cults that banded together for protection in the face of Christian persecution. Over time, the mystery cults merged together, and now they worship Mithras, Mars, Minerva, and Jupiter together. They weakened with the death of Rome's standing armies, but survived to form mercenary companies in the middle ages. While the exact companies have come and gone, they have survived in spirit until the modern day. Today they have members in the militaries of most western countries, and maintain a mercenary organization. After the end of the Pogrom and a decreased need for magical mercenaries, they began taking jobs from less savory organizations, which resulted in them leaving the Verbena.

They believe that by ending organized worship of their gods, the Technocracy has weakened their divine blessings.

The Seventh Thunder

The worshipers of the Asgardians didn't die out with the coming of Christianity and the Order of Reason. No, they, survived to the present day, in the form of a number of biker gangs. These pagans moved to the midwest in the mid-nineteenth century, far from the grasp of the Order of Reason. There they lived for almost a century, until the rise of biker gangs gave them new life. They drink hard, fight harder, and live outside the law, and belive that by maintaining a 'viking' lifestyle their gods continue to favor them. However, Fimbulwinter is coming, accelerated by the Technocracy, and the power of the gods wains.

They left the Verbena over their refusal to expel their white nationalist members.

The Olympians

The Olympians claim descent from the Greek Gods. They believe that by living in the proper way, and training constantly, they can exceed the limits of the humans the Technocracy tamed. However, the modern world lacks the sheer power to maintain an Olympian's full power, due to the technocracy draining magic and thus they must take care to only slightly break the limits placed upon them. They never integrated into the Verbena, and left after the end of the Progrom to pursue their own aims.

House Bjornaer

House Bjornaer is an order of druids, formerly a member of the Order of Hermes. They defected to the Verbena during the formation of the Council. They draw their power from the land, and are often park rangers or other park officials in order to ensure that they have the access they need. However, few places on the planet are truly pure anymore, weakening their power. They left during the Verbena schism, but maintain close ties with both factions.
 
"Banality is a combination of many things, but mainly it consists of doubt, rationality, cynicism [presumably in the modern sense of the word], disillusionment, realism and a general unwillingness to embrace the fantastic. "

...

(Compare to the much more dreamy attitude towards science and tech as evidenced by the Moon Landing era, or by modern people like Hawkings, the Numberphile people or the Periodic Table of Videos.)
If you don't think science and scientists exemplify doubt, rationality, realism, and an unwillingness to embrace the fantastic, I think you need to be refreshed on science a bit. Like, you seem to be confusing how science is often sold to the public (wondrous and impressive and magical) with what the actual process of science is (little of the sort). Scientists who are doing science correctly are absolutely rational and realistic, doubtful and unwilling to embrace outlandish things. That's why replicability is a thing, that's why the null hypothesis is a thing, that's why the entire scientific method is set up how it is.
 
If you don't think science and scientists exemplify doubt, rationality, realism, and an unwillingness to embrace the fantastic, I think you need to be refreshed on science a bit. Like, you seem to be confusing how science is often sold to the public (wondrous and impressive and magical) with what the actual process of science is (little of the sort). Scientists who are doing science correctly are absolutely rational and realistic, doubtful and unwilling to embrace outlandish things. That's why replicability is a thing, that's why the null hypothesis is a thing, that's why the entire scientific method is set up how it is.
The important bit is that the best scientists are still feeling inspired by their research. It's their dream. They're trying to invent and discover, to bring something new to the world. Which is extremely different from the attitude than that of a school kid with an aptitude towards literature trying to slug through the math class and thus memorizes the solutions by rote without trying nor wanting to understand them.

When I code a script, I can do it in one of two ways (okay, it's more of a spectrum):
I can be enthusiastic about an idea, try to come up with elegant and innovative ways to solve a problem or create something new. It's an example of a creative process.
Or I can be doing the more boring routine work of debugging an old script that I got bored of by now, perform routine maintenance upon request, or implement Variation #17 that only requires 'mechanistic' change of some of the implementation of features #0-#16 with no creativity involved to speak of.

This would definitely mean that the fringe theorists and the true inventors/discoverers of new stuff (that requires confirmation/replication) are on the more dreaming side, while those doing the peer review and the replication and re-checking are more on the banal side. But sufficiently innovative directions can still have a net balance shifted towards dreaming, such as was the case with the whole space race project. 'We can put a man on the Moon if we study really hard' is absolutely a case of accepting the fantastic and the things that are considered unrealistic not long before the landing and making it come true.

---

Now, you point at rationality, and lately I'm becoming a bit leery of using this word in general, since its meaning seems to shift too much depending on the speaker, field of science etc.
 
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Awakening Magic is simpler and much easier to grok, thus the reason for back-porting. However, it loses some of the awesome that the Ascension Magick can do. But from the veterans of my local gaming community, they played oMage as it is, mainly because they were young rebellious teenagers who railed against the authority of The Man and The Church with MtAs and DtF

If you want to GURPSify it, you'll have better luck using Thaumatology's Realm Magic system for GURPS 4e. It'll still take a little bit of work, but mostly that system just slots into the Sphere descriptions with minimal effort.

The first and biggest question you need to consider is which Mage? [1]

Me, I like them both - although I tend to re-form both games so they're rather refocussed along different design paths. I do talk more about oMage, but that's because a) PQ is an oMage quest and b) people argue a lot more about oMage. It's much harder to get into flaming rows about nMage, and even though I'm not the greatest fan of nMage 2e (and there's no way I'm using the damn GMC rules), I'm just kind of "meh" about it and see no need to switch rules when my houseruled 1e is perfectly serviceable and runs the mode of game I want to run.

(Yes, apparently Awakening has avoided an edition war through the power of apathy)

Bluntly, if I was going to run Ascension, I'd use the Awakening rules with oParadox forwards-ported anyway.

[1] Witch mage lololololololol.

Thanks, guys.

I'll get Mage Revised and the supplements recommended, and I think I will grab Mage the Awakening and Mage Translation guide on my next next payday :V

If Awakening rules really are more clearly defined then that makes the workload for me much easier, but any forward-porting requires an initial understanding of Mage Revised rules anyway. If I'm confident with Revised rules that's fine, at least I have a fallback plan.
 
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The Verbena

The Verbena descend from the practicioners of the old western European religions, prior to the coming of Christianity. They are similar to, and responsible for, the Wicca movement in the modern world. However, during the original Concave, they gained several members of surviving pagan religions, many of whom did not fit in with the 'mainstream.' With Nightshade missing in the Avatar Storm, they have splintered into many factions, most of whom no longer see eye to eye.

The thing about the Verbena, I think, is that they get given too much continuity. They're trying to be too hard an order of ancient witches which date back before Christianity that... well, one has to ask whether that really serves them.

I feel they could do with a lot more... mmm, well, mix up folk religion with the idea that old gods wear new faces - and a lot of willingness to take things and claim they're ancient Verbena secrets.

So the medieval Verbena can be said to have no real cultural continuity with the pre-Christian ones. The medieval witches of Europe mix up folklore which might remember old gods, yes, but they're worshipped as devils and demons - because medieval witches exist within a Christian cultural context. And there's no reason to say that just because you worship the Devil, you're a Nephandus in the sense that you have an inverted Avatar and seek the end of all things. You just worship things that the dominant culture doesn't approve of - possibly because, yes, you cut out hearts on blood-stained altars. Most people would consider you a bad guy, but that's just a product of your Tradition. After all, sure, you kill people to serve Satan (built up of folk traditions and the things the priests tell you to be wary of), but the Euthanatoi murder people because Fate tells them that the world is better off without them.

And then, yes, the medieval Verbena Tradition/Craft who are effectively antinominian Christians (worshipping devils) mixed up with folklore are whittled down and wither away and the witch-hunts stop (and the Order of Reason are far from the only people who go after them) - but people still Awaken and practice their magic with folk traditions and often mixes of Christianity and superstition. And people hear about witches. People who find they have power think of things that they know witches can do. So they kept on coming back in little Crafts and cabals and cells. And there are some elements of the medieval groups that survive as insular groups and bloodlines.

Meanwhile, new societies have new folklore and new traditions. You can't wipe out the Verbena without destroying the ideas they build off - and everyone knows what witches can do.

Of course, the more modern "Wiccan" Verbena are, much like the medieval ones before them, effectively taking some aspects from cultural things and then remixing them. They're claiming they have an ancient heritage, but... well, you can consider things as you wish. After all, to the modern Verbena, they're worshipping Pan - who was called the Devil by people in Medieval times - and they can talk to their god and it's true. Technocrats aren't the only ones who can assert their own reality and the integrity of their own beliefs. If you believe you're the inheritor of and ancient tradition of witches that dates back to pre-Roman times, you are - and if snobbish Hermetics tell you that it isn't real, they can go fuck themselves.

Basically, mmm, in my concept of them, the European + US culture of the Verbena can basically be considered to be built up by Orphans who established a larger cultural tradition - and so get treated as a Tradition. If they weren't from Europe, other people would call them Dreamspeakers and clump them into that kind of folklore thing, but Europeans have a different view of witches from Europe than things that "other people" do.
 
The thing about the Verbena, I think, is that they get given too much continuity. They're trying to be too hard an order of ancient witches which date back before Christianity that... well, one has to ask whether that really serves them.

I feel they could do with a lot more... mmm, well, mix up folk religion with the idea that old gods wear new faces - and a lot of willingness to take things and claim they're ancient Verbena secrets.

So the medieval Verbena can be said to have no real cultural continuity with the pre-Christian ones. The medieval witches of Europe mix up folklore which might remember old gods, yes, but they're worshipped as devils and demons - because medieval witches exist within a Christian cultural context. And there's no reason to say that just because you worship the Devil, you're a Nephandus in the sense that you have an inverted Avatar and seek the end of all things. You just worship things that the dominant culture doesn't approve of - possibly because, yes, you cut out hearts on blood-stained altars. Most people would consider you a bad guy, but that's just a product of your Tradition. After all, sure, you kill people to serve Satan (built up of folk traditions and the things the priests tell you to be wary of), but the Euthanatoi murder people because Fate tells them that the world is better off without them.

And then, yes, the medieval Verbena Tradition/Craft who are effectively antinominian Christians (worshipping devils) mixed up with folklore are whittled down and wither away and the witch-hunts stop (and the Order of Reason are far from the only people who go after them) - but people still Awaken and practice their magic with folk traditions and often mixes of Christianity and superstition. And people hear about witches. People who find they have power think of things that they know witches can do. So they kept on coming back in little Crafts and cabals and cells. And there are some elements of the medieval groups that survive as insular groups and bloodlines.

Meanwhile, new societies have new folklore and new traditions. You can't wipe out the Verbena without destroying the ideas they build off - and everyone knows what witches can do.

Of course, the more modern "Wiccan" Verbena are, much like the medieval ones before them, effectively taking some aspects from cultural things and then remixing them. They're claiming they have an ancient heritage, but... well, you can consider things as you wish. After all, to the modern Verbena, they're worshipping Pan - who was called the Devil by people in Medieval times - and they can talk to their god and it's true. Technocrats aren't the only ones who can assert their own reality and the integrity of their own beliefs. If you believe you're the inheritor of and ancient tradition of witches that dates back to pre-Roman times, you are - and if snobbish Hermetics tell you that it isn't real, they can go fuck themselves.

Basically, mmm, in my concept of them, the European + US culture of the Verbena can basically be considered to be built up by Orphans who established a larger cultural tradition - and so get treated as a Tradition. If they weren't from Europe, other people would call them Dreamspeakers and clump them into that kind of folklore thing, but Europeans have a different view of witches from Europe than things that "other people" do.
The thing is the folk religion survived well into the middle ages IRL, so I'm just going off that.
 
DriveThruRPG just started a new sale, title the Dark Urban Fantasy Sale, with a whole bunch of Onyx Path and White Wolf products on sale.

A lot of Changeling books of both the Dreaming and the Lost (including Dark Ages: Fae), a number of the Chronicles of Darkness books (those not tied to a single CofD game line), Mage: the Awakening books and a few from Ascenion and a favorite of mine that seldom gets love, the entire Orpheus line.

I'll get Mage Revised and the supplements recommended, and I think I will grab Mage the Awakening and Mage Translation guide on my next next payday :V

Skip the Translation Guide. It's not worth the money. In fact none of the Translation Guides are worth the money as they are pretty much 95% stuff anyone could figure out on their own and the 5% that remains isn't worth the price tag.
 
Lol, I just bought Mage the Ascension 2nd edition on ebay for fairly cheap (shipping things here is always a huge expense and a hassle) so I guess we're starting with 2nd edition then!
 
Verbana is one of those factions that I feel could really benefit from being split into two camps--a traditionalist camp drawing from worshipers of the various derivative religions of the prototypical Indo-European pantheon and a postmodernist new age wicca group (arguably, as ES describes) descended from old, scary, blood-sacrificing witchcraft groups.

Bringing this up, I can't help but notice something;

ಠ_ಠ

Hey, you don't get to complain--by being a Trad fan you've forfeited your right to enjoy linear time :p
 
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Does that mean the writers are going to get lazy and tell the readers to finish their work for them on that book as well?

After a long, long development, yes.

And first release of the book will have several terrible pieces of 3D art and one piece that is clearly poor traces of other art pieces and photos.
 
@NonSequtur had some similar ideas about the Verbena, actually - I incorporated some of them into my Trads write-up, maybe he could elaborate?

It's much in the same vein, as I remember it - that there are only a few actual Celts left over (and most of those got lost in the Storm), and the vast majority of them are antinomian Christians or new-agey Wiccans, though the old mystery cults always get some recruits every year because... well, romance, mystery, tradition.
 
The thing is the folk religion survived well into the middle ages IRL, so I'm just going off that.
No they didn't. What little continuty there may be certainly doesn't rise tp the level of organized religion. as best you have some mystery cults with very questionable linneages, Now in WoD you can have surviving secret/mystery cults with real continuity, but that'd be due to mages making it different from IRL.

Also, modern Wicca (hah, at the most generous calc, wicca is barely 80 years old) is almost entirely ecclectic - much more Janice of Janicequest than Selene. The term wicca was coined by gardener, whose highly ecclectic/syncretic set of beliefs cribbed as much from the anglican church as it did any actual pagan traditions, and even then mashed up norse and celtic names and concepts in a way we could pribably call horriblly culturally insensitive and misappropriation today.

Modern Neo-paganism is roughly split between the Reconstructionists, who are trying to recreate the ancient pagan practices and freely admit they probably only have moderate fidelity, but are very serious about trying to be culturally appropriate and genuine; and the Eccletics, who are grab-bag whatever seems cool, new age mashed with old celtic stuff they got thirdhand.

I have a number of Recon friends, and thier opinion of the eccletics is, to say the least, often vitrolic.
 
No they didn't. What little continuty there may be certainly doesn't rise tp the level of organized religion. as best you have some mystery cults with very questionable linneages, Now in WoD you can have surviving secret/mystery cults with real continuity, but that'd be due to mages making it different from IRL.

Also, modern Wicca (hah, at the most generous calc, wicca is barely 80 years old) is almost entirely ecclectic - much more Janice of Janicequest than Selene. The term wicca was coined by gardener, whose highly ecclectic/syncretic set of beliefs cribbed as much from the anglican church as it did any actual pagan traditions, and even then mashed up norse and celtic names and concepts in a way we could pribably call horriblly culturally insensitive and misappropriation today.

Modern Neo-paganism is roughly split between the Reconstructionists, who are trying to recreate the ancient pagan practices and freely admit they probably only have moderate fidelity, but are very serious about trying to be culturally appropriate and genuine; and the Eccletics, who are grab-bag whatever seems cool, new age mashed with old celtic stuff they got thirdhand.

I have a number of Recon friends, and thier opinion of the eccletics is, to say the least, often vitrolic.
Olaf 1 was still drowning pagans in the late 900's, which is close enough that I can call myself technically correct. And now I will declare that the middle ages didn't have an order of wizards dating back to ancient Egypt and stick my tongue out at you.
 
Olaf 1 was still drowning pagans in the late 900's, which is close enough that I can call myself technically correct. And now I will declare that the middle ages didn't have an order of wizards dating back to ancient Egypt and stick my tongue out at you.
And after doing some more research I'm finding minor support (no good sources I can bring in and say gotcha) for my original position. Though of course IRL they all died and their traditions were forgotten, but it's not like I claimed Wiccans were descended from real pagans outside of WoD.
 
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No they didn't. What little continuty there may be certainly doesn't rise tp the level of organized religion. as best you have some mystery cults with very questionable linneages, Now in WoD you can have surviving secret/mystery cults with real continuity, but that'd be due to mages making it different from IRL.

Also, modern Wicca (hah, at the most generous calc, wicca is barely 80 years old) is almost entirely ecclectic - much more Janice of Janicequest than Selene. The term wicca was coined by gardener, whose highly ecclectic/syncretic set of beliefs cribbed as much from the anglican church as it did any actual pagan traditions, and even then mashed up norse and celtic names and concepts in a way we could pribably call horriblly culturally insensitive and misappropriation today.

Modern Neo-paganism is roughly split between the Reconstructionists, who are trying to recreate the ancient pagan practices and freely admit they probably only have moderate fidelity, but are very serious about trying to be culturally appropriate and genuine; and the Eccletics, who are grab-bag whatever seems cool, new age mashed with old celtic stuff they got thirdhand.

I have a number of Recon friends, and thier opinion of the eccletics is, to say the least, often vitrolic.
And after doing some more research I'm finding minor support (no good sources I can bring in and say gotcha) for my original position. Though of course IRL they all died and their traditions were forgotten, but it's not like I claimed Wiccans were descended from real pagans outside of WoD.

Okay, apparently my point is supported in the books The Rise of Western Christendom: Triumph and Diversity 200-1000 AD, Ambrose of Milan, and The Last Pagans of Rome. Unfortunately I don't have access to those books at the moment, so would you be willing to shelve this discussion until September?
 
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