Tell The World That We Tried (Battletech CYOA) (Complete)

Valles · Apr 23, 2019

B_omega said:
Wait.. they're using the same caliber as the AC-5??? It's basically A Rotary AC-5 with a different package. Like replacing a shotgun with an SMG.

We don't have any canon fluff specifying 80mm as a caliber used by AC20s, but the round is given for both AC5 and AC10 models, so I'm comfortable with the idea. In the AC20's case, recoil and the resulting 'jitters' of dumping so many rounds so fast introduce the inaccuracies that limit AC20 range.

Revolver autocannons are a real thing, distinct from gatling types. As far as tabletop rules go, the RotaStorm isn't a weapon with any distinctions. It's there so that the LCAF can limit itself to just two ammunition types (LAC 80mm and AC 80mm) and cut down on their headaches.

B_omega said:
As long as it's the only source of Omniparts and mech parts, it becomes to juicy to simply kill. Clan's idea of waste (anathema to them) and a right force and trick would bait the clan. (Offer safcon as long as the cap ship did not involve themselves.)

Even in 3025, Finmark is only one of four production sites building Patton hulls. Pods come from at least twice as many locations, and both of those numbers will have increased by the time the Clans show up.

B_omega · Apr 23, 2019

Valles said:
Even in 3025, Finmark is only one of four production sites building Patton hulls. Pods come from at least twice as many locations, and both of those numbers will have increased by the time the Clans show up.

Maybe a tip to ComStar which will leak them to the clans, that the Finmark factory is the only one or the largest one?

Sooner or later word will gets out on what happens to the dragoons. Most likely sooner, as there are too many butterfly to encourage their return. The fall of the CC and rapid rearmament of the LC, all of that will be informed by the Periphary traders which will in time, be known to the clans.
Clans mesianic tendency, from both side of the argument, will only result in an Invasion. Although which coridor and which clan, might be different now.

We can safely bet that ComStar would try to steer them to prune LC and FS.

DW75 · Apr 23, 2019

Valles said:
We don't have any canon fluff specifying 80mm as a caliber used by AC20s, but the round is given for both AC5 and AC10 models, so I'm comfortable with the idea. In the AC20's case, recoil and the resulting 'jitters' of dumping so many rounds so fast introduce the inaccuracies that limit AC20 range.

Revolver autocannons are a real thing, distinct from gatling types. As far as tabletop rules go, the RotaStorm isn't a weapon with any distinctions. It's there so that the LCAF can limit itself to just two ammunition types (LAC 80mm and AC 80mm) and cut down on their headaches.

Based on the fluff, there's a WIDE range of calibers used all over. For the sake of making comparisons to actual calibers however, it should also be firmly stated that compared to modern guns of today, they're all insanely powerful. For one thing, it is canon that what counts as an "BT machinegun" is actually a 20mm rotary(it's specified on one of the tanks, Scorpion IIRC?). And there's an old source that once stated that the original "AC 1" was effectively comparable to the 105mm L7 tank gun firing bursts.

So, basically, in BT terms, ALL current real world tanks would be instakilled by a single hit from an AC2, any laser and any missile. While the most powerful tankguns in realworld use would cause, in some cases just barely, a single point of damage.

TotallyNotEvil · Apr 23, 2019

So, let's see:

Valles said:
Locust LCT-2S

2 ML and a Flamer that go zoom.

It's 5 points short of max armor, and that just goes to tell you... 20t is just too little.

But I will grant that, for the speed and tonnage and price and tech, this is likely as good as you are going to get with a Locust. And I like it better than the other two bugs, it' actually speedy, and with an almost respectable short-range punch, but the Flamer makes it more versatile than a third ML that would let it shine more when mech-fighting.

Valles said:
Wasp WSP-2S

A very respectable amount of dakka, for its weight... but even thinner skinned, and it's nowhere near as fast as the Locust. Ground-bound, too.

Valles said:
Stinger STG-3S

A Wasp that doesn't sting, but can jump, and gets a tiny bit of armor with it.

Ironic, how the names are inverted.

Valles said:
Commando COM-4R

When you ordered a tank and they gave you a mech.

Valles said:
Atlas AS8-S

How does something with 44t free for guns, counting in 24 sinking and 19t of armor, manage to be underwhelming?

2x LL and LRM 20 at range, and 2xLL and AC/20 up close.

Night · Apr 23, 2019

DW75 said:
So, basically, in BT terms, ALL current real world tanks would be instakilled by a single hit from an AC2, any laser and any missile.

Except not, because we have the Rifle series. Modern vehicles are more likely to fit in as BAR 3 to BAR 5, with similar amounts of armor, equipped with MGs and Light or Medium Rifles. They can stand up to a single missile hit or an AC/2.

Valles · Apr 23, 2019

TotallyNotEvil said:
A very respectable amount of dakka, for its weight... but even thinner skinned, and it's nowhere near as fast as the Locust. Ground-bound, too.

6/9/3 is enough to get it over rough terrain and issues like that, which was the purpose of including those jets.

TotallyNotEvil said:
How does something with 44t free for guns, counting in 24 sinking and 19t of armor, manage to be underwhelming?

2x LL and LRM 20 at range, and 2xLL and AC/20 up close.

Well, lessee.

Stalker - Short: 6xML(30)+2xSRM4(12)=42; Long: 2xPPC(20)+2xLRM10(12)=32
Banshee - 2xPPC(20)+AC12(12)+LRM15(9)=41
Atlas - Short: AC20(20)+2xLL(16)=36; Long: LRM20(12)+2xLL(16)=28

I'd say that the answer is either 'LLs aren't that great' or 'AC20s look less impressive on paper than their ability to make Instant Holes becomes in practice'. I did think long and hard about an LRM15+SRM6 combination, but decided to stay with this as the in-setting simpler option.

TotallyNotEvil · Apr 23, 2019

Valles said:
6/9/3 is enough to get it over rough terrain and issues like that, which was the purpose of including those jets.

My mistake, I thought I read 6/9/0.

Valles said:
Well, lessee.

Stalker - Short: 6xML(30)+2xSRM4(12)=42; Long: 2xPPC(20)+2xLRM10(12)=32
Banshee - 2xPPC(20)+AC12(12)+LRM15(9)=41
Atlas - Short: AC20(20)+2xLL(16)=36; Long: LRM20(12)+2xLL(16)=28

I'd say that the answer is either 'LLs aren't that great' or 'AC20s look less impressive on paper than their ability to make Instant Holes becomes in practice'. I did think long and hard about an LRM15+SRM6 combination, but decided to stay with this as the in-setting simpler option.

I didn't say bad, did I? One merely expects more from an Atlas, from name and reputation alone, ya?

The Banshee is pretty awesome, looking at it again. You can even add the pair of MLs for a manageable +4 heat, if need be, or drop the LRM and stay neutral while walking and firing. Pair of PPCs, a headcapping cannon, big LRM, plenty of ammo for anything that uses it, lots of armor.

Very well done, and well balanced machine.

GiovanniBlasini · Apr 23, 2019

The WSP-2S makes for a great alternative to the WSP-1W subfamily, and would be an annoying little bugmech to face.

The STG-3S amuses me to no end, since I came up with a similar Introtech version as a trainer/light incindiary 'Mech as part of my gaggle of bugmechs on the official forums back in the day.

Valles · Apr 23, 2019

TotallyNotEvil said:
I didn't say bad, did I? One merely expects more from an Atlas, from name and reputation alone, ya?

The Banshee is pretty awesome, looking at it again. You can even add the pair of MLs for a manageable +4 heat, if need be, or drop the LRM and stay neutral while walking and firing. Pair of PPCs, a headcapping cannon, big LRM, plenty of ammo for anything that uses it, lots of armor.

Very well done, and well balanced machine.

Heh. It would have been arrogant of me to say that the Banshee being too good was the problem.

The Full Foundtech upgrade paths are probably LB10X and CASE for the Banshee, but I dunno what to do with the Atlas and still leave it feeling Atlas-y.

Starfox5 · Apr 23, 2019

Valles said:
The Full Foundtech upgrade paths are probably LB10X and CASE for the Banshee, but I dunno what to do with the Atlas and still leave it feeling Atlas-y.

Gauss Rifle instead of AC/20, double the SRMs and fill the rest with med lasers?

Crusher Bob · Apr 23, 2019

Best I've been able to come up with is:

LAC5 x3 (+3 ammo)
LL x2
LRM20 (+3 ammo)
ML x2
13 DHS

Which gets you:
Short (LAC5x3, LLx2, MLx2 (53 damage, 25 heat)
Long (LAC5x3, LLx2, LRM20 (~55 damage, 25 heat)

It does preserve the 'Heavy AC armament' + LRM20 feel of the original Atlas, but probably requires too much work on a stock Atlas

------------------

Keeping all the other stock weapons and removing the AC20 seems to have some legs:

You keep
LRM20 (+2 ammo)
MLx4 (2 forward, 2 rear)
SRM6 (+1 ammo)

And replace the AC20 with LAC5 x4 (+4 ammo)

You have 2 tons left for more (ammo, probably +1 LRM (18 shots total) and +1 LAC5 (25 shots total)

That gets you
short range (LAC5 x4, SRM6, MLx2 (~54 damage, 14 heat)
longer range (LAC5 x4, LRM20 (~48 damage, 10 heat)

And you can fire everything (~66 damage, 20 heat) at things around range 6.

TotallyNotEvil · Apr 23, 2019

Crusher Bob said:
LAC5 x3 (+3 ammo)
LL x2
LRM20 (+3 ammo)
ML x2
13 DHS

Which gets you:
Short (LAC5x3, LLx2, MLx2 (53 damage, 25 heat)
Long (LAC5x3, LLx2, LRM20 (~55 damage, 25 heat)

It does preserve the 'Heavy AC armament' + LRM20 feel of the original Atlas, but probably requires too much work on a stock Atlas

Oho, now that's pretty nice. Man, the LAC 9 is really something, huh?

Could one do something with the AC/12 to keep a big holepuncher at least?

Or a GR, but those are as of yet unavailable...

sepulcher · Apr 23, 2019

So will there be any chance of research for a rotary autocannon, rac/2 or 5?
haven't played btech in a while and noticed that on sarna.net and thought these would be great at the hbs damage values

Akritedes · Apr 23, 2019

Crusher Bob said:
Best I've been able to come up with is:

LAC5 x3 (+3 ammo)
LL x2
LRM20 (+3 ammo)
ML x2
13 DHS

Which gets you:
Short (LAC5x3, LLx2, MLx2 (53 damage, 25 heat)
Long (LAC5x3, LLx2, LRM20 (~55 damage, 25 heat)

It does preserve the 'Heavy AC armament' + LRM20 feel of the original Atlas, but probably requires too much work on a stock Atlas

------------------

Keeping all the other stock weapons and removing the AC20 seems to have some legs:

You keep
LRM20 (+2 ammo)
MLx4 (2 forward, 2 rear)
SRM6 (+1 ammo)

And replace the AC20 with LAC5 x4 (+4 ammo)

You have 2 tons left for more (ammo, probably +1 LRM (18 shots total) and +1 LAC5 (25 shots total)

That gets you
short range (LAC5 x4, SRM6, MLx2 (~54 damage, 14 heat)
longer range (LAC5 x4, LRM20 (~48 damage, 10 heat)

And you can fire everything (~66 damage, 20 heat) at things around range 6.

I'd be disinclined in that direction, because not only are you spending more raw tonnage on the autocannon element, but you're throwing away the single-point damage of the AC/20 for a bunch of long-range ML taps.

TotallyNotEvil said:
Oho, now that's pretty nice. Man, the LAC 9 is really something, huh?

Could one do something with the AC/12 to keep a big holepuncher at least?

Or a GR, but those are as of yet unavailable...

The AC/12 you're talking about here is pretty much the AS7-RS Introtech refit. LRM-15, SRM-4, 2xLL, AC-10 on an AS7-D chassis. Which is itself an introtech knockoff of the Atlas II.

me.me.here · Apr 23, 2019

Akritedes said:
you're throwing away the single-point damage of the AC/20 for a bunch of long-range ML taps.

Eh, almost doubling the range and damage is a decent trade-off for not being as hole punchy, especially since you'd be dropping 3 heat as well. I can see why you might not like it, but I can also see why others would.

Akritedes · Apr 23, 2019

me.me.here said:
Eh, almost doubling the range and damage is a decent trade-off for not being as hole punchy, especially since you'd be dropping 3 heat as well. I can see why you might not like it, but I can also see why others would.

Yeah, but if you want the range like that you're better off waiting until you can start jamming Gauss Rifles in instead. Or maybe keeping some of the DHS you have to trade for the LACs and sticking a pair of PPCs in instead, for ~14t of PPC and 5t of DHS to get to 30 heat capacity. More hole-punchy build, too. Two PPCs to punch holes and then an LRM-20 to critseek is a pretty vicious combination.

Crusher Bob · Apr 23, 2019

AC20 + PPC x2 + LRM20 doesn't fit. Especially because that makes one of your brakets 26 heat, which you need 13 heat sinks for.

AC20 (+3 ammo)
PPC x2
SRM6 x3 (+3 ammo)
ML x2 (rear)
11 DHS

sorta works
Short (AC 20 + SRM6 x3 (~44 damage, 19 heat)
Long (PPC x2 (20 damage, 20 heat)

But both AC builds get much better damage at short and medium range.

AC10 (+2 ammo)
LRM20 (+3 ammo)
LL x2
SRM6 (+1 ammo)
ML x2 (rear)
13 DHS

Loses even more short range power (~36 damage, and still only does ~28 in long laser range)

AC5 x2 (+2 ammo)
LRM20 (+3 ammo)
LL x2
ML x2
13 DHS

Is a bit better (44 short, ~46 in LL range, but does have ~30 outside LL range) But you already lose the AC20 punch, have to make other changes (AC20 -> AC5 x2, +2 LL, -2 ML rear, -SRM6) which would mean lots of engineering work since you are changing everything but the LRM20 and MLx2.

The LAC5x4 version is probably one of the easiest, since it just changes the heat sinks and AC20 > LAC5 x4, but manages to keep everything else the same.

TotallyNotEvil · Apr 23, 2019

Akritedes said:
I'd be disinclined in that direction, because not only are you spending more raw tonnage on the autocannon element, but you're throwing away the single-point damage of the AC/20 for a bunch of long-range ML taps.

AFAIK, the light cannons also benefit from the rebalance.

So it's no ML taps, it's halfway between LL and PPC taps. Note what Crusher did: Short (LAC5x3, LLx2, MLx2 (53 damage, 25 heat) => 9*3 + 8*2 * 5*2. 53 damage. And this is on a SFE with max armor.

So quite good. That's more damage than a damn Devastator, and while it's in smaller bits, almost PPC-sized bites aren't exactly small. Same for the long-range bracket, with the LRM subing in for the MLs.

Akritedes said:
The AC/12 you're talking about here is pretty much the AS7-RS Introtech refit. LRM-15, SRM-4, 2xLL, AC-10 on an AS7-D chassis. Which is itself an introtech knockoff of the Atlas II.

With DHS, that's ten 'free' tons to play with.

Valles · Apr 24, 2019

Theoretically, something like this might be possible:

Code:

Latter-Day Atlas 
 
Mass: 100 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E-A
Production Year: 3070
Cost: 10,532,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 2,279
 
Chassis: Unknown Standard
Power Plant: Unknown 300 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 32.4 km/h
Maximum Speed: 54.0 km/h
Jump Jets: None
    Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor w/ CASE
Armament:
    1  Rotary AC/5
    2  PPCs
    1  MML-9 w/ Artemis IV FCS
    1  ER Medium Laser
    2  Anti-Missile Systems
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
 
================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                     152 points               10.00
Engine:             Fusion Engine                300                      19.00
    Walking MP: 3
    Running MP: 5
    Jumping MP: 0 
Heat Sinks:         Double Heat Sink             15(30)                    5.00
    Heat Sink Locations: 1 LT, 1 LA, 1 RA
Gyro:               Standard                                               3.00
Cockpit:            Standard                                               3.00
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA+LA+H    R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor:              Standard Armor               AV - 304                 19.00
    CASE Locations: 1 LT, 1 RT                                             1.00
 
                                                      Internal       Armor      
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                                                Head     3            9         
                                        Center Torso     31           48        
                                 Center Torso (rear)                  13        
                                           L/R Torso     21           31        
                                    L/R Torso (rear)                  11        
                                             L/R Arm     17           33        
                                             L/R Leg     21           42        
 
================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PPC                                          RA        10        3         7.00
PPC                                          LA        10        3         7.00
Rotary AC/5                                  RT        1         6        10.00
Anti-Missile System                          RT        1         1         0.50
MML-9                                        LT        5         5         6.00
    Artemis IV FCS                           LT        -         1         1.00
(R) ER Medium Laser                          CT        5         1         1.00
(R) Anti-Missile System                      HD        1         1         0.50
@Rotary AC/5 (60)                            RT        -         3         3.00
@Anti-Missile System (12)                    RT        -         1         1.00
@MML-9 (LRM Art-IV) (13)                     LT        -         1         1.00
@MML-9 (SRM Art-IV) (11)                     LT        -         1         1.00
@Anti-Missile System (12)                    CT        -         1         1.00
                                            Free Critical Slots: 8
 
BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:     10    Points: 23
3          5       6       3       0      4     0   Structure:  8
Special Abilities: AMS, CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA, IF 1

SableCold · Apr 24, 2019

Valles said:

Theoretically, something like this might be possible:

Code:

Latter-Day Atlas
 
Mass: 100 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E-A
Production Year: 3070
Cost: 10,532,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 2,279
 
Chassis: Unknown Standard
Power Plant: Unknown 300 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 32.4 km/h
Maximum Speed: 54.0 km/h
Jump Jets: None
    Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor w/ CASE
Armament:
    1  Rotary AC/5
    2  PPCs
    1  MML-9 w/ Artemis IV FCS
    1  ER Medium Laser
    2  Anti-Missile Systems
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
 
================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                     152 points               10.00
Engine:             Fusion Engine                300                      19.00
    Walking MP: 3
    Running MP: 5
    Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks:         Double Heat Sink             15(30)                    5.00
    Heat Sink Locations: 1 LT, 1 LA, 1 RA
Gyro:               Standard                                               3.00
Cockpit:            Standard                                               3.00
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA+LA+H    R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor:              Standard Armor               AV - 304                 19.00
    CASE Locations: 1 LT, 1 RT                                             1.00
 
                                                      Internal       Armor     
                                                      Structure      Factor    
                                                Head     3            9        
                                        Center Torso     31           48       
                                 Center Torso (rear)                  13       
                                           L/R Torso     21           31       
                                    L/R Torso (rear)                  11       
                                             L/R Arm     17           33       
                                             L/R Leg     21           42       
 
================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PPC                                          RA        10        3         7.00
PPC                                          LA        10        3         7.00
Rotary AC/5                                  RT        1         6        10.00
Anti-Missile System                          RT        1         1         0.50
MML-9                                        LT        5         5         6.00
    Artemis IV FCS                           LT        -         1         1.00
(R) ER Medium Laser                          CT        5         1         1.00
(R) Anti-Missile System                      HD        1         1         0.50
@Rotary AC/5 (60)                            RT        -         3         3.00
@Anti-Missile System (12)                    RT        -         1         1.00
@MML-9 (LRM Art-IV) (13)                     LT        -         1         1.00
@MML-9 (SRM Art-IV) (11)                     LT        -         1         1.00
@Anti-Missile System (12)                    CT        -         1         1.00
                                            Free Critical Slots: 8
 
BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:     10    Points: 23
3          5       6       3       0      4     0   Structure:  8
Special Abilities: AMS, CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA, IF 1

Click to shrink...

point blank is limited to the finicky RAC and the MML.

Valles · Apr 24, 2019

SableCold said:
point blank is limited to the finicky RAC and the MML.

Well, I'm certainly not going to make the poor thing suffer by inflicting IS Pulse Lasers on it.

Chloe Sullivan · Apr 24, 2019

Valles said:
Well, I'm certainly not going to make the poor thing suffer by inflicting IS Pulse Lasers on it.

Hey, small pulse lasers have a place as no-ammo squishy killers.

DW75 · Apr 24, 2019

Night said:
Except not, because we have the Rifle series. Modern vehicles are more likely to fit in as BAR 3 to BAR 5, with similar amounts of armor, equipped with MGs and Light or Medium Rifles. They can stand up to a single missile hit or an AC/2.

Apparently yes we have the "Rifles" now. They're essentially a retcon however as the quote i was referring to is back from the 80s or 90s and relates to the original design of the game and what they were using as reference in regards to firepower levels. And the "rifles" also makes absolutely no sense. If nothing else because the real world has already mostly quit using rifled guns on tanks. Challenger 2 is the only "big name" with one, and the brits have been talking about replacing it with a smoothbore for over 20 years now.

Also, the only vehicle i can find reference to using a rifle is noted with 2310 as the introduction date. Almost 300 years more of development from today... Looking at development in the last 50 years, heck the last 25 years alone is enough to guarantee that those "rifles" would still be a BIG step up from current realworld tech.
So no, those "rifles" are way beyond current realworld tanks firepower.

And the BAR armour, it simply doesn't translate properly to current realworld tech. Based on the material comparisons given for it, a measly 7.62 MG would mostly ignore BAR3 and not be very impacted by BAR4.

Missiletech is the same thing, with the known parts compared to reality, we have missiles TODAY that is similar size/weight to an SRM that can somewhat reliably destroy ANY current tank. Combine that with the old quotes about how current missiletech(in the 80s) wouldn't even register as a threat against a BT mech.

So no, everything taken together, i think it remains perfectly plausible to say that current realworld vehicles would have very little chance to survive pretty much any fire from a BT-verse unit that isn't MGs or similar "small arms".

Spectrum · Apr 24, 2019

I'm in love with LPLs but MWO is a different beast.

(RAC/5s are also nasty there)

BlindLine153 · Apr 24, 2019

Valles said:
Well, I'm certainly not going to make the poor thing suffer by inflicting IS Pulse Lasers on it.

It might be my anti autocannon bias but I prefer the Hausa rifle on the Atlas or really in any applicable mech. As an aside. Would making an actual rail gun be possible. Gauss rifles are different what with using coils and capacitors rsther thsn rails. If so I wouls make it similar damage wise as the Hausa but with more ammo per ton for faster projectiles. Id make them about the samw size ans weight as clan GR but unlike the GR railguns would be a hot weapon. This is by no means a demand thst you do so just an idea that I thought might be cool

Tell The World That We Tried (Battletech CYOA) (Complete)

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