Ugh. Been busy and sick is not good staying up to date on complex discussions like this one.
Hoyr said:
A GARDIAN system is made out of a set of laser turrets that give full area coverage or were you talking about the main cannon when you said laser turret?
Ah terminology. Just to be absolutely clear:
From what I understand Esbilon said that using just DEW science we could fit a laser on the Tiger. However it would not be the small point defence lasers you can cover the vehicle with but a big bulky thing that would only work as a main gun.
Barring BLACK MAGIC after a point you just can do that any more as your propulsion needs to have an "equal and opposite reaction". But I'll accept that Repulsors are pretty much black magic.
I think we might have been talking past each other here. I'm not quite sure what you thought I said but your response doesn't make sense in reflection to what I thought I said.
I was saying that the reason we don't see giant beams of death coming out of the repulsors when Tony uses them for thrust is because they are set to diffuse mode so that all the energy is dumped into that foot long area behind him. When used as a weapon they are set to focused mode so that they can actually be effective at range.
Not the ones used in IM2 those were wide area death weapons, Tony basically bisected every suit in a the area by turning them on and spinning. The use of them as such indicates to me that the repulsor can't do the same. For some reason. Though that lasers were a one shot weapon for some reason, possibly destructively overcharged their lasing chambers or burnt out their optics.
Probably melting the optics. My bet is that they were designed to be snipping weapons. Point at an enemy and shoot a tiny, because the beam itself was
tiny, laser to ventilate your target's brains. Tony just used them in
Laser Beam - Death Mode because it was cool and a fast way of taking out all those enemies at the cost of burning through an optic system designed for millisecond long uses not second long.
In the tech tree there is a "Go Away Beams" option after researching particle beams. Unless you meant something else.
Edit: I'd loves something like ST's repulsor tech tree bit it better then 150 points=death beams.
We do indeed. It's really odd though not that I think about it that particle beams are laser tech when they are a lot closer to repulsors.
Also the end of your post has some stuff from me but not response/quote box.
It was an 8am post after been up all night. I probably forgot to deal that.
Van Ropen said:
Uber, the point of our pseudo-GARDIAN is to stick little lasers on the hull that light up any incoming projectiles, not fight off enemy spacecraft. Consider the Anti-spacecraft replaced with Anti-missile in the acronym. We have confirmation that miniaturized lasers is what is required for that.
And they would be more effective at it than anything else just by virtue of the fact that anything they fire at is hit at light speed.
That's what I was trying to say, I think it has been a couple days. That DEW wouldn't work without miniaturisation.
Esbilon said:
I'm sorry guys, it's taking me way too long to get through this thread, but I'm almost there, I promise! I hope to have an update for you this weekend. On that note, could I get a link to the latest version of The Plan™?
No problem. I know that recently I've been making giant posts simply because I just can't keep up with the thread most of the time.
Definite word: Neural interfaces comes in both brain-electrodes and headset versions. The difference is like that of a LAN connection and Internet on your cell phone. For most things, the headset will be fine, but for heavy duty stuff, you want to get inside.
Excellent. Makes sense since your example of wired vs wireless is exactly correct. After all the headset is wireless communicating with your brain while the integrated unit is wired into your brain.
Mmmm, I'm inclined to say yes, but on the other hand it is my distinct impression that most companies build several factories rather than one humongous one, so I think I'll limit you to 3 factories per location, not necessarily planet. Thus, you could build new factories near the other cities on Mindoir, but not in Landing. Does that seem fair? This would likely only have minor mechanical impact.
That's mostly due to logistics from what I understand. It's easier if your factory is near a large source of manpower and resources as well as been close to your consumer base.
Now we are absolutely going to be limited in the number of factories we can make on Mindoir (hence why I said within reasonable grounds) simply due to the very small population. Not to mention that after a certain point our costs will go up since we'll be consuming more then Mindoir can supply so we'll need to arrange for it to be shipped in with all the extra complications from that.
I think the number of factories per location works but you should probably add a limitation, or other disadvantage, to having too much production for a population.
Mindoir is a low population world with low levels of development so lets say it can only support 100k of production, or a bit over three Factory IIIs, while somewhere more developed like say Terra Nova could support a million units of production.
Esbilon said:
I'll comment below.
7) Repulsors can be fired continuously.
I was asking about how fast they can be cycled on/off. It's important because it determines whether or not we could replace magnetically accelerated rounds with repulsor accelerated rounds.
10) A flat no. They have orbital superiority and they are not OK with anything that could potentially threaten this. That said, if you were to donate some sattelites to them, they could probably be persuaded to have them in orbit over Mindoir.
Not surprising. Guess we'll have to make a couple donations.
12) Because it wasn't in Auks's last update, and I copied my first from his last, and each of my newer from my most recent. I'll be there in the next one.
Good to know.
13) I'll put it on my todo list. If you're feeling up for it, you should feel free to suggest some numbers, and if they're reasonable I'll probably just go with those.
I'll also add it to my todo list and see if I can come up with some (well reasoned) ideas before you.
The problem with giving an answer to the range of the Repulsors is primarily that we have no input on this issue from canon, and that they would probably not actually have a sharp maximum range, but rather diminishing effect the further you were form the source. The secondary concern is keeping things moderately balanced to that lasers and guns/missiles are still useful. To that end, I am hereby decreeing that the repulsors have a maximum effective range of 500 meters. This would be enough for everything Shepard does with the Mako in ME1, and for city-based engagements, but not the kind of thing you want in pitched battles or deserts or the like.
If you feel this is unfair, I'd be open to introducing a new tech building off Repulsors and Miniaturized Lasers which extends this (and possibly improves the repulsors more generally as well).
Actually I think a great way of dealing with this would be to cut off the particle beam section from the lasers and make them repulsor tech. It makes more sense then particle beams just coming out of nowhere. So:
Repuslors + Miniaturised Energy Weapons* -> Repulsor Cannons** -> Improved Repulsor Cannons -> Go Away Beams
*Name change fits mini-repulsors and mini-lasers.
**Adapts the multi-purpose Repulsor into a dedicated weapons system which increases it's range and significantly reduces the recoil in exchange for an inability to be used as an engine. The improved version once again increases the range while also increasing the amount of energy it's able to deliver and finally the Go Away Beams mean that anything within visual range (on a planet not in space) goes away.
Also something from the discussion later on:
I think ideally Lasers should be the be all end all for space but limited in atmo, Repulsors should be the be all end all for ground but limited in space and projectiles/missiles being a jack of all trades that generally falls behind overall.
This prevents the craziness that is effective ground lasers and gives a good reason to research lasers and repulsors. It also doesn't render miniaturisation useless since not only would that be useful for my (above) alterations to the research tree it is also useful for spaceships.
Not only would you be able to fit lasers on fighters, making them deadlier against fellow fighters and capital ships, but it would also mean you could simply fit more lasers on your ship meaning that each laser has to fire less often extending the heat capacity of each laser.
Regarding recoil, the obvious solution is to output the same amount of oppositely directed momentum backwards. Of course, this has certain unhappy implications for whatever happens to be behind you at the time.
Well to me the obvious solution is to use the vastly more powerful (thanks to massive amounts of electricity) Eezo reactor to generate a field that counterbalances the recoil. Of course the downside here is that you can't use the core for anything else while you fire.
All this talk of AIs reminds me another of my
favourit AIs. As you can probably see, I don't buy into the whole "human level AI" thing, not for long anyway. Since superintelligences are not really interesting in a game like this, I'm not entirely sure how I'll handle it when it comes up, though probably the simplest way will be to ignore my instincts. Again.
It's really something to worry about, and discuss, when we actually get close to creating them. That said there are a bunch of issues with AIs.
First and foremost is morality. You can program your AIs to like doing what you want them to do but that reeks of brainwashing and slavery. Best approach I've found is, unfortunately, effectively indentured servitude. AI works for it's creator for X period of time to pay off the expenses associated with it's creation and afterwards it's recognised as a free person and free to do what it wants, including continuing to work for you but under the same terms and conditions as any meatbag.
Secondly is of course as you mentioned dealing with their intelligence. And that's an interesting problem. If we had an AI IRL it would be rather different to humans simply due to the way our computer hardware works.
The most fundamental thing is that while our brain is comparatively slow at linear calculations it's highly multi-threaded with literally billions of little CPUs capable of working independently on their own little set of calculations. Meanwhile an AI would be capable of doing one or two things really fast at the same time but that would be it. Processing auditory, visual and tactical input and integrating them into a coherent view of the would simultaneously would be rather taxing.
Which is probably why AI in Mass Effect either use Blue Boxs since their quantum nature can simulate massive parallel processing and Geth instead rely on countless CPUs all networked together running a highly multi-threaded composite system.
Something to think about anyway.
You suffered the CHA research deal penalty while working on the Repulsors, micro-missiles, Improved intelligence algorithms and basic neural interface; thus they are all available for inclusion.
Excellent. I'll (hopefully) be doing a Gladius write up in this post so that's good to know.
I think what I was trying to say there was that Gigawatt (not joule!) Lasers can be fitted on an IFV or a plan right out of the box.
Gigawatt and Gigajoule lasers are actually different things. They really come down to whether the beam is sustained (watt) or not (joule). But good to know.
The prototype factory does not count towards this limit. All of your factories are at the same site on the outskirts of Landing, but you're running out of space.
Space? Running out? Of Space? On a low population planet? I mean I suppose we could be running into farmers who, understandably, don't want to sell their land but on this sort of world space isn't a problem really. It's population (employees) and availability of resources.
santtu1976 said:
Hmm, guys, I just got little idea. Repulsor can give out lot of energy but range sucks, now the idea of making it propel an slug for ground vehicle gun is quite stupid since regular mass accelerator gun does some work with less engineering, but it can be used that way in space ships. So, the question goes. Is it possible to make repulsor system which propel slug at same size and speed like dreadnought spinal gun? And can it be done so it fit smaller ships and not be spinal?
Remember a Repulsor generates little/no heat. So at the very least it's likely far more efficient then an electric accelerator.
Van Ropen said:
and laser is actually too precise to be the main weapon - at some point you do want to deal with physical payload and the like.
That's really not an issue. Just program the turret that when it locks onto the target to do a quick sweep across it.
If we assume the target is 2m wide and we're firing from 500m away a sweep covering it is only 0.2 degrees. A WWII Tiger II tank could rotate it's turret 360 degrees in 19 seconds or 0.05 seconds per degree which at 0.2 degrees means it only takes 0.01 or 10 milliseconds and even at 50m away it would only take 0.12 seconds. I bet modern day turrets can go faster and ME turrets even faster.
So to get myself away from this IFV discussion:
The Gladius
CHA-PI-SSC-01A
Role - Space Superiority and Anti-Capital
Weaponry:
- 1x Spinal Electromagnetic Mass Accelerator
- 6x Paragon Industries AF-01 Hydra
- 2x Paragon Industries AC-01 Super-Pilum / 2x Disruptor Torpedoes
- 8x Paragon Industries UHP-01 Universal Hardpoints
Defensive Systems:
- Paragon Industries Ultra Light Weight Fighter Armour (ULW-FA-01)
- Cord-Hislop Aerospace Kinetic Barriers
Power System:
- 2x Paragon Industries Arc Reactors (5GW)
Engine System:
- Cord-Hislop Aerospace Military Fighter Engine
Additional Systems:
- Paragon Industries Neural Interface Control System (NICS)
AF-01 Hydra
The Paragon Industries' Hydra stands today as the single most deadly anti-fighter/anti-bomber missile known to exist. While at first it appears to be a standard anti-fighter missile however at close proximity to the target it explodes to reveal a thousand micro-missiles which instantly lock onto the target and begin spreading out to ensure that at least one, and in most cases many more, are capable of impacting the target.
Thanks to their high velocities and specially designed tips the micro missiles are capable of penetrating most known armour before detonating inside to cause maximum damage.
AC-01 Super-Pilum
(Insert cool sounding selling points here)
Basically a regular Pilum, which is utterly devastating towards kinetic barriers, up-sized to anti-capital size like the Disrupter. For reference on the Pilum:
"The Pilum missile is something I'm even more proud of. It uses a proprietary three stage warhead, designed to bypass barriers, penetrate armor, then detonate a High explosive charge deep inside an enemy vehicle. One Pilum should be capable of destroying any armored vehicle in service, as well as slow flying aircraft. Each launcher has a three round internal magazine-"
"I'm sorry, but I find that hard to believe." You fight the urge to jump at the new voice, and whip around to see a black man standing next to your mother in an Alliance hardsuit. Like the Major, he has a white and red N7 emblem on his chest. You notice your mom is staring at him with a raised eyebrow. He seems to notice, and with an apologetic shrug, continues, saying "I've handled a lot of AT weapons in my time, and getting a one hit kill with a rocket small enough that you can fit three in that housing doesn't really seem possible. You need a pretty heavy warhead to defeat modern armor's barriers."
You manage to keep your irritation off your face as you respond. "Or you can just get around it." You bring up a holo of the Pilum on your Omni-tool. "The Pilum uses a three stage warhead to destroy it's target. The first," You highlight it on the holo, " boosts itself ahead of the rear stages and uses eezo in a manner similar to disruptor torpedoes to disrupt the kinetic barriers, creating a brief window for the following stages to penetrate. At that point they've already separated, with the second stage self forging itself via an explosive charge so as to penetrate or weaken the armor and allow the HE in the third stage to penetrate and destroy the vehicle."
UHP-01
The Paragon Industries Universal Hardpoint is exactly what it sounds like. It's designed to be completely compatible with all Pargon Industries mounted systems as well as existing Alliance systems. For the rare system that it isn't compatible with the mount has an in built sensor suit and flash-forging system that allows it to quickly generate a conversion system. Unfortunately we can not guaranty full compatibility with converted systems.
(Basically just the standard PI mount but capable of fitting anything. Not sure if we can get away with this but it's pretty simple and eliminates the problems of tracking what can be mounted on what)
(I picked 8 since the Raptor has 4 on the underside of it's wings and since this isn't an atmospheric fighter it can have four above. For times where agility is the key they can go without and for times when it doesn't matter then they can be loaded up with things like the Super-Pilums, Hydra, Mini-missile rocket pods, turreted Hasta, whatever else anyone can think of)
(I imagine a Gladius with 8 Repulsor cannons, likely with inbuilt Arc Reactors, would chew up any capital it got close enough to)
ULW-FA-01
While some companies would try and cram as much armour as they can onto a fighter we here at Paragon Industries recognise that a fighter's life and death is based around their manoeuvrability not their armour. After all a single shot from a GARDIAN will obliterate a fighter heavy armour or not. As such we have crafted the lightest piece of armour available for fighters in an attempt to enhance their agility as much as possible.
Don't however assume just because it's ultra lighter that our fighter armour is anything but top of the line. Utilising our revolutionary materials science Paragon Industries has been able to create an armour that is not only lightweight but also just as resistant to kinetic impact as our competitors.
NCIS
Ever fumbled a control? Accidentally bumped a button while franticly dodging? Been just a second too late on pulling your trigger to save a buddy? Well this is the solution you've been waiting for.
The Paragon Industries Neural Interface Control System, or NICS for short, allows for direct human to machine interface without the need for messy controls. With this completely unprecedented system you can just sit back and control your fighter without even moving a muscle.
While much like the HAPTIC system surgery is required to gain the full benefit of this new interface it is still very much available in a much less invasive format. In this case the stylish headgear I've got on right now. This headpiece drops reaction times down to 50ms from the time you think the command to the time it's enacted and the implant drops that down to 10ms. Compared to the average of
200 miliseconds* to physically react that's a significant improvement when a single millisecond can be the difference between life and death.
(*Yes I know it's for going from accelerator to break in a car but it's about the best I could do)
CHA-PI-SSC-01B
Role - Space Superiority and Anti-Capital
Weaponry:
- 1x Spinal Repulsor Mass Accelerator
- 6x Paragon Industries AF-01 Hydra
- 2x Paragon Industries AC-01 Super-Pilum / 2x Disruptor Torpedoes
- 8x Paragon Industries UHP-01 Universal Hardpoints
Defensive Systems:
- Paragon Industries Ultra Light Weight Fighter Armour (ULW-FA-01)
- Cord-Hislop Aerospace Kinetic Barriers
Power System:
- 6x Paragon Industries Arc Reactors (5GW)
Engine System:
- Paragon Industries Repulsor Engine System
Additional Systems:
- Paragon Industries Neural Interface Control System (NICS)
Not really an IC piece for this but basically swapping the regular accelerator for a repuslor version, which If practical is almost certainly better, and repulsors for engines, assuming they remain godly engines. The reason this is separate from the version A is whether we the Players want to give CHA (and hence Cerberus) access to repulsor technology.
Now personally I have issue with it since almost everything that goes to the alliance will end up with them getting their hands on it anyway but some people have expressed issues with that. On all version I've left out our VI stuff mostly because right now all we have to offer is security and EW VI both of which are not the sort of thing we really want to let out, both of which I've edited out of my description of the Tiger.
Calculations
AF-01 Hyrda
I'm basing this off the Aim-9 Sidewinder. Now the Sidewinder has a 9.7kg warhead which I can't find any size numbers for. So instead I'm taking the Tomahawk with it's ability to fit a W80 with a volume of
56,548,668 cubic millimetres and mass of 130kg and scaling that back to 9.7kg or 4,219,401 cubic millimetres.
Now I have no idea how the Sidewinder's complex mixture of shrapnel and explosive materials compares in density to a nuclear warhead but it's the best I've got. If anyone else has a better comparison feel free to post it and I'll update my numbers.
So going off my earlier numbers the Hyrda should fit 1,439 micro missiles. Lets round that down to a thousand for a nice even number.
-------------
I'll see about updating that tech tree now...
Hopefully that's done now. I added Conrad's three new techs. I don't think there is anything else missing...?
