Rule The Waves 3 - A Graphical Experiment

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[X] Those German Nassau's look good - lets build fast battleships
 
Estro said:
Can we have a brief precis of the current most up-to date classes and their nominal roles, if we're voting for such things?
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Going off Memory: Most ship classes haven't changed since the first and second posts. More ships have been build and better version of them have been designed, but the list currently looks something like:
- 1890 ironclads of three types, but all generally carrying some mediocre high calibre guns
- Large Armoured Cruisers of about 9,000 tons which can make 22 knots
- Smaller Armoured Cruisers of various kinds, between 4-6,000 tons, able to make around 20 knots, carrying 203mm guns.
- Large Protected Cruisers of around 6,000 tons with 140-160mm guns and 20-22 knots speed
- Small Protected Cruiser of around 4,000 tons with smaller guns but good speed.
- A collection of various corvettes/colonial cruisers with the most common being a 2,400 ton colonial ship with a few 140-160mm guns.
 
We seem to already have a fast protected cruiser of a decent size, which makes 22 knots, and a smaller but slower armoured cruiser if that's right. Our Battleship/Ironclads haven't been updated much, but I believe in the Jaune Ecole....
[X] Fast Protected Cruisers, so we can build many of them.
Commerce Raiding it is - lets see if we can build the fastest thing on the sea.
 
Vote is currently tied between protected cruisers and fast battleships.
pls fix
 
[X] Those German Nassau's look good - lets build fast battleships
 
Revolutionary Justice
  • Threadmarks
    • Adhoc vote count started by 4WheelSword on Mar 23, 2024 at 8:40 AM, finished with 17 posts and 10 votes.
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    What next then, for the Marine Nationale? Those German Nassau's look good - lets build fast battleships


    If we are to build new battleships, we must first review what else is being built or commissioned around the world:
    - While we know they are also building the new Colorado-class, the most recently commissioned class in the United States is the USS California and her sisters. At 14,100 tons, she caries a prodigious secondary battery and is still capable of 18 knots.
    ​
    - The Royal Navy is currently building two different classes of 15,000 tons, and we know nothing about either of them. Our most recent intelligence on their larger ironclads place the HMS Barfleur at 13,600 tons and just 16 knots.
    ​
    - The source of this program, the German Nassau-class, is capable of 20 knots but trades that prodigious speed for an impotent main battery and insufficient secondary armament. They are, at least, small.
    ​
    - The Italian fast battleship, the Andrea Doria-class, achieves 18 knots by giving up so much belt armour that they are vulnerable along the waterline to relatively small guns. She does carry significant secondary guns though.
    ​
    - The Russian Empire has built several of the Imperatritsa Mariya-class, a solid middle-of-the-road design which can make 19 knots while shipping solid armour and guns.
    ​
    - The Spanish, Japanese and Austro-Hungarian navies are also building battleships, but none are significant for this process.

    From the above we can determine the following if we are to build an effective fast battleship: It must be capable of at least 20 knots, it must carry guns that can penetrate a 250mm armour plate at reasonable ranges (2-3,000 yards) and it must carry sufficient armour to stop a 305mm shell beyond those ranges. The following design has been pulled together from several architects and placed before the Marine Nationale:
    ​
    The Republique-class will be our fast battleships. Capable of good speed with a powerplant that produces 25k horsepower, she will carry a 330mm gun fore and aft, and a further pair of 230mm guns across the centreline. Her own belt will resist her guns at all but the closest of ranges, and thus the guns of the enemy as well. She is to be 14,400 tons of French élan, with four torpedo tubes submerged below the armour to deal the death blow to German warships.

    It is only unfortunate that they will not be ready until the latter half of 1899 and will likely be too late for this war.


    A brutal engagement in the Mediterranean between the German and American fleets sees the sinking of four ships; the German cruisers Stettin and Freya and the US ironclads Wyoming and Illinois. This marks the fifth battleship lost as part of the war with the Germans. These losses are presumably unsustainable for the United States, but in a mercenary fashion, better them than us.

    Another attempt by the enemy to negotiate a white peace comes in February. We are winning this war, one grudgingly given step at a time, and with the Armee de Terre gearing up for another pushing into German territory, it would be foolish to give up now. Nevertheless, things are tense around France, as workers have begun leaving their factories to protest outside ports, urging sailors to mutiny and join a revolution. This fervent French spirit is admirable, and I am impelled to give a speech on the nature of the peoples sacrifices and the sacrifices we all must make during war.
    ​
    Fortunately we do not have long to wait and the people of France will not have to condone the harsh measures of war for much longer! After the latest push by the Armee de Terre, a crushing blow has been dealt to the Reichsheer and the Germans are in flight. The people of Germany will have it no longer!

    The peace is harsh, but we want only one thing: Alsace-Lorraine. The transfer of this region back into its proper French custody will enlarge the states coffers and right and great wrong. The United States, perhaps surprisingly, are content with reparations from the newly forming liberal Germany democracy and the new German state is allowed to retain its colonies in Africa and the South pacific.

    But this is victory! And what a victory it is. The Marine Nationale suffered tiny losses, and most of those were to mines rather than direct enemy action. Torpedoes have proved themselves an effective weapon in naval warfare, and the raiding cruisers did everything we needed and more. Truly there is little more we could have hoped for, and we gained an ally in the process. The post-war budget reductions are harsh, but we will bear them as we can - it will cut into our new battleship construction, but we will build at least one of those marvellous ships especially now the Amiral Aube-class cruisers are completed and working up. A shame they missed the war, but they'll be ready for the next one.


    We have forced democracy on an old enemy through the fires of revolution. Where next our attention?
    [ ] Remain on the Mediterranean - we have plans there still.
    [ ] The Atlantic
    [ ] The African Colonies
    [ ] The Indian Ocean
    [ ] South East Asia
    Select three of the following as spending priorities for the Marine Nationale over the coming months and years:
    [ ] Construction
    [ ] Enhancing Bases
    [ ] Coastal Defences
    [ ] Research
    [ ] Advanced Training
    [ ] Intelligence
     
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    • [X] Remain on the Mediterranean - we have plans there still.
    [X] Construction
    [X] Research
    [X] Intelligence
     
    [X] Remain on the Mediterranean - we have plans there still.

    We have won in Europe; why look elsewhere?

    [X] Construction
    [X] Research
    [X] Advanced Training

    To enter another war so soon would be folly. We should build up our forces and keep our technological edge, while also promoting elan.
     
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    [X] Coastal Defences
    [X] Enhancing Bases
    [X] Intelligence


    [X] The African Colonies

    Perdiferous albion must be watched out for-in Africa! Seize the Sudan, via the trans-Saharan expedition!
     
    Peace, but an Armed Peace
  • Threadmarks
    • Adhoc vote count started by 4WheelSword on Mar 24, 2024 at 7:11 AM, finished with 5 posts and 3 votes.
    • [X] Remain on the Mediterranean - we have plans there still.
      [X] Construction
      [X] Research
      [X] Intelligence
      [X] Advanced Training
      [X] Coastal Defences
      [X] Enhancing Bases
      [X] The African Colonies
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    We have forced democracy on an old enemy through the fires of revolution. Where next our attention? Remain on the Mediterranean - we have plans there still.
    Select three of the following as spending priorities for the Marine Nationale over the coming months and years: Construction, Research, Intelligence


    A second Republique-class hull is laid down in August of 1897, and this hull will be named Democratie once she is launched. While we cannot afford the new squadron we wanted in the wake of wars end, this pair will be a remarkable addition to the fleet with their excellent guns and high speed.

    In September the Marie Lousie-class was despatched around the world. These colonial cruisers - truly hardly more than large corvettes - will operate as port ships and harbour guards for the next few years and will free additional armoured and protected cruisers to return to our home ports in Brest and Toulon. In addition the Third Cruiser Division will be moved to a permanent base in South-East Asia to replace the strange collection currently based in the area. These will be replaced as and when needed with other large ships of their ilk.

    Rebuilding our war chest will take time, but it is grudgingly slow work. Maintaining an intelligence network, our high level of training and our research division altogether means many ships spend much of their time on the reserve list, while Great Britain secures concessions from China including the Hainan Province just South of Kouang-Tchéou-Wan. Further North, the Liaotung Peninsula comes under the control of the Empire of Japan, but that is far outside our zone of interest.

    Eighteen-Ninety-Eight
    The start of the new year comes mostly with diplomacy - a United States diplomatic mission in Paris comes bearing gifts! An extension to the alliance with the Americans and a guarantee that any future European conflict will see a response from our sister republic.

    Speaking of Republics, in the same month we are able to lay down a third ship of that class, her keel going down properly in April. The Liberte will be the third of the trio, and finally expand the squadron into a more serious threat. She will join her sisters a half year after the first are complete in the middle of the first year of the new century.

    The middle of the year also marks the first time that every major ship of the Marine Nationale has been arranged into a proper divisional organisation. Four battleship divisions, six armoured cruiser divisions and nine protected cruiser divisions makes for a well organised fleet, even with so many of them on the reserve list. More ships are moved into the Mediterranean in order to deter any potential Spanish or Italian aggression at the same time.

    July is an intense month. The President warns that he considers our strength in the Mediterranean to be insufficient to deter both the Italians and the Spanish, forcing the movement of significant forces into the region. Most of the fleet is now in that inland sea, rather than watching the Atlantic approaches, with tens of cruisers clustered up at Toulon. The Germans, hot on the heels of deposing their monarch (as any modern nation must), take control of the Kiautschou Bucht as a treaty port. Finally, a call for aid comes from the Eastern part of the Med, with the people of Rhodes asking for assistance in dismissing their Ottoman masters. Unfortunately, the Italians move faster and our squadron arrives only to find Italian flags in port. We are criticised at home and abroad, an appalling states of affairs.

    The Germans in China​

    Of significant concern is the spread of dangerous thought in the far east, as the government of Borneo has fallen, swiftly and viciously, to a Japanese aligned military force. We must be certain of the safety of our people in those distant lands, and ensure no harm comes to them. Weeks later, we uncover a spy working for the Empire of Japan! He is, of course, swiftly dealt with but this introduces a concern that the Island Empire is more perfidious than previously envisaged.

    French troops in Africa, attempting to defuse tensions in Fashoda, have been confronted by British infantry attempting to do much the same. Shots have not been fired but we have been asked if we could win a war at sea with the Monarchists across the channel. We push for more money, and importantly, more time. Even with the United States on our side, it would be a horribly brutal war on our ships and, with much of our fleet currently in the Mediterranean, a difficult one as well.
    ​

    Given we have not previously engaged the British significantly, we will briefly review the Royal Navy:
    - They maintain some forty ironclads, the vast majority of which are in port in the home islands. None of these are below 10,000 tons displacement, and the vast majority of them carry 340mm guns in twin turrets fore and aft. The most recent class are the Glory and her sisters, of which there are currently four and another three in construction.

    The enormous HMS Glory with her gigantic 67-ton guns​
    - The British armoured cruiser force is a mixed bag, maintaining everything from small, slow colonial ships to massive 11,700 ton 'cruisers' that in any other force would be considered ironclad battleships. Curiously, the Royal Navy seems to vacillate wildly between building massive warships and small cruisers. The latest Achilles-class splits the difference at just 7,100 tons, but is otherwise unremarkable.

    HMS Venerable, all 11,700 tons of her​
    - The RN maintains some forty-eight protected cruisers, many of them of over 8,000 tons displacement and with a notable class being the Bacchante which masses a massive 9,100 tons while making some 20 knots. We would be hard pressed to expect any ship but the Leon Gambetta and Amiral Aube's to be able to engage these ships effectively.

    HMS Bacchante, with new turrets fore and aft which each fit a single 230mm gun​

    We have money and for now we have some small amount of time.
    If we are pressed, what do we do?
    [ ] Give ground to the British. We cannot win such a war.
    [ ] If war must come, let it - we will raid our way to victory!
    [ ] Attempt to maintain peace, but give no ground. If there is to be a war, let them start it.
    We have a budget, now how do we spend it?
    [ ] Superior Protected Cruisers of great size, to match the British.
    [ ] Superior Armoured Cruisers, to fight the Italians.
    [ ] Additional Fast Battleships, to bolster our forces further.
     
  • Threadmarks
    • [X] Give ground to the British. We cannot win such a war.

    Not time yet. Perhaps in a few decades, or if they suffer something catastrophic.

    [X] Superior Armoured Cruisers, to fight the Italians

    As always I'm not sure of what ship would be best. This one says to fight Italians though : V

    More seriously I don't have strong opinions on this and could easily be convinced if people want something else. Just ping me if you want me to change my vote
     
    [x] Give ground to the British. We cannot win such a war.
    [x] Additional Fast Battleships, to bolster our forces further.
     
    [X] Give ground to the British. We cannot win such a war.
    [X] Superior Armoured Cruisers, to fight the Italians
     
    War with Great Britain in the 1890s is ... challenging, but I actually managed to more-or-less win against them last time I did an 1890s France game, losing Algeria to an invasion but driving the British government into falling. (Of course, I fell into a second war with them about a decade later, just as their dreadnoughts started entering service iirc, so, y'know, there's definitely downsides to antagonizing them). I'm not sure we're anywhere near ready for it now, but ...
    [X] Attempt to maintain peace, but give no ground. If there is to be a war, let them start it.
    [X] Superior Protected Cruisers of great size, to match the British.
     
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