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General Exalted Thread

Reader mode
Speaking of demons, I'm sure it hasn't escaped anyone that Keris has a new soul; Calesco, and is planned to get two more. And she's going to give each of them some keruby, partly so that they have company and aren't lonely, but mostly to see what happens.

Shall we find out? Yeah, let's!
Keruby of the Midnight Whisper
It is a curious trait of the mezkeruby that they possess two shadows; one flinching away from the light and the other stretching toward it. Sometimes their movements fail to match the tar augur's, especially when the light is dim and they go half-unseen. Tar-keruby have rubbery skin that appears black - in fact it is transparent; the colour coming from the boneless tar that fills them and passes for blood to their kind. Though they cannot change their essential bipedal shape; they can ripple their skins from within to alter surface details, and commonly rearrange their features into eerily smooth blank masks when they wish to go unrecognised.

Every tar augur is enthralled with the belief that they possess a special destiny; that a fated something awaits them in the future that will change their lives forever and be the fulfillment of all their dreams. To this end, they pursue any way they can find of predicting when, where and what this event will be; from astrology to lithomancy to vision-quests - though their favourite method is invariably their natural clairvoyance in bowls of tar and honey. There is no record of any tar augur ever having met their destined Happening, as they call it, but they remain upbeat and hopeful in their efforts - though to question their certainty is to invite a quick and cutting response.

While they themselves are only subject to Fate when they are in Creation, and have no particular importance in the records of Fate, mezkeruby are nonetheless skilled in the many forms of fortune-telling they practice. A tar augur can serve as a personal astrologer, and their semi-fluid bodies can be put to various uses. They are talented mimics of profiles, though they can do little about their obvious colouration and size, and a liquid-filled finger in a keyhole can quickly find pins and tumblers. Mezkeruby will gain Limit if anything prevents them from trawling the future each day, and a tar augur can slip into Creation whenever oil or tar spills across the apparatus for a form of fortune-telling they have never before encountered.

Physical: 2; Physical Styles: Madcap Dancer Style (5), Sneaky Shadow Style (6)
Social: 4; Social Styles: Devious Disguise Style (9), Sharp-Tongued Retort Style (7)
Mental: 5; Mental Styles: Murky Mélimancy Style (12), Random fortune-telling Style (8), Shadowy Explorer Style (7)
Enlightenment: 2;

Arms: SPD 6, ACC +0, DMG 2B, DEF 0, Rate 1 (Suffocating clinch)
Armour: 0 (Rubbery skin)

Join Battle 2; DV 2
Accuracy: 2; Damage: 2B;
Soak 1; Health Levels; 2

MDV 3; Urge: Find My Destiny
Principles: Dance (5), Music (5), Hope for the Future (4), Sceptics are Stupid (4), New Forms of Fortune-Telling (3), Yummy Honey (2)

Fast Charms:
Shadow Dancers
Keywords: Obvious
Mezkeruby dances cloak the area in shadow and airless gloom, dimming the light around them and plunging bystanders into suffocating darkness. Characters in a tar-kerub dance suffer reduced visibility; clear/murky vision ends at 10/30 metres at the first level, 0/10 at the second and 0/0 at the third.

Diviners of Destiny
Keywords: None
Tar augurs do have some small talent at gleaning truth from the future. A mezkerub may roll its Conviction at Difficulty 5 whenever it makes a divination. Success reveals a tiny, out-of-context glimpse at a random facet of samsara. Though it is unlikely to relate to the augur's own future, most assume these fragments of knowledge relate to their Happening in some way, and pursue them enthusiastically.

Keruby of the Sound that Sunders
A femkerub wears a bronze helmet over its head, trapping a wild crackling bob of electric dreadlocks beneath it. There is no substance to their heads beyond this anchored lightning, and it exhausts them to leave it unconstricted. Their limbs are thin and spindly things of scratched metal, but their torsos are hardy, and sparks leap from the bumps and nodules that form there. Despite their seeming fragility, spark jockeys are both strong and rapid workers when they feel so inclined. There is little art or elegance to their slapdash tools and constructions, but they are generally sufficient to do the job they're made for before they break. They gravitate to cities and settlements, both for the familiarity of patchwork slums and for the fauna that come part and parcel with civilisation.

Lightning-keruby are great animal-lovers and love to ride. Their preference is not for grand or majestic beasts, however. Rather, their favourite breeds are livestock, domesticated beasts and those urban vermin who live off humanity without permission. Femkeruby delight in the company of such creatures, and encourage them to be wild and free, stripping away their tame natures and rendering them independent once more. They are superb jockeys, and the most common use femkeruby put their handiwork to by far is the making of saddles. Such saddles are nothing like any human work, though, and nor is their usage. A femkerub saddle has one purpose: to comfortably protect the animal from the electrified metal body of the cherub, and everything not essential for that purpose is stripped away. Spark jockey riding is rapid, chaotic and wild, and a human who tried to replicate it would be thrown and trampled to death in very short order.

Femkeruby are summoned as ostlers, though asking one to corral livestock is likely to result in the entire herd going missing overnight. They can, however, happily tolerate men and beasts living in equal partnership, and a wandering hero could benefit greatly from a spark jockey to help care for their steed. Their quick and dirty construction is just as useful when one needs a ramshackle shelter or improvised cooking pot for the night. When lightning strikes near a group of owned or imprisoned animals, a femkerub can emerge from the bolt to free them. If they see an animal suffering under human ownership, they will gain Limit unless allowed to remedy the situation.

Physical: 6; Physical Styles: Madcap Dancer Style (5), Wild Rider Style (12)
Social: 3; Social Styles: Beast-Befriending Style (9)
Mental: 2; Mental Styles: City-Creature's Clinic Style (6), Slapdash Builder Style (6), Urban Explorer Style (7)
Enlightenment: 2;

Arms: SPD 5, ACC +2, DMG 3L, DEF 1, Rate 1 (Club or flail)
Armour: 3 (Tough metal body)

Join Battle 1; DV 3
Accuracy: 8; Damage: 6L;
Soak 6; Health Levels; 6

MDV 1; Urge: Free Beasts from their Chains
Principles: Dance (5), Music (5), Riding (4), Urban Animals and Livestock (4), Quick and Dirty Crafting (3), Complex Contraptions (2)

Fast Charms:
Lightning Dancers
Keywords: Obvious
Sparks are never far from the surface of a femkerub. When they dance, their inner charge is brought to the surface in arcs and showers of sparks, bright bolts of electricity and tremendous fields of crawling lightning. Those unfortunate enough to be holding metal objects must roll at each interval against a disarm attempt. This roll is Difficulty 2 at the first level and rises by 1 for each subsequent level.

Friend of Feral Things
Keywords: Training
It is with strength of spirit that the femkeruby connect with the beasts they encounter, not conditioning or cruelty. A spark jockey can ride any beast - even nonsensically small steeds such as foxes or rabbits - and ignores Control rolls for any animal with Enlightenment lower that its own. Prolonged exposure to lightning-keruby will wear down domestication and training, increasing the Difficulty for any other rider to handle the creature by (kerub's Enlightenment) until it is re-tamed.

Keruby of the Tidal Artisan
If there are differences between the genders of the agyakeruby, they are invisible to any save each other. Their malleable bodies of seabed clay and woven reeds give no sign, for they can be reshaped and sculpted with ease; mutations and decorations applied and removed like letters written in sand. Avid critics and consumers of art, clay-keruby are prone to keep homages to their favourite pieces on their bodies, and a change in their tastes can render them almost unrecognisable. The dances of the living canvases make the area around them as malleable as their own bodies, warping land, structures and even living things that linger too long; often damaging them in the process.

Althrough dreamy and prone to strange chains of logic, agyakeruby are nonetheless effective diplomats and negotiators. Some are surprised at this, but such people have never seen a seemingly random comment from a clay-kerub disarm an offended warrior's growing wrath, or a serene non-sequitor about the quality of a treasured painting flatter its merchant owner. While they can be blunt in their appraisal of arts and crafts, they are generally friendly in disposition, and many find work in trade and barter. Offending them is difficult but not impossible, and insults to their favourite art pieces - intentional or otherwise - will often spark a creative mind to plot odd and inventive means of revenge.

Clay-keruby can serve as aides in diplomacy and bartering for those other than the lyrical heirs, who look on them with favour as well-behaved subordinates who help them in controlling mixed groups of their kin. Any artist might find their critique a useful prompt, but those who work with the sculpting of flesh are likely to benefit most - living canvases are perfectly suited as test subjects for intentional mutation. When a person's flesh is changed or sculpted into a form they consider beautiful, an agyakerub can arrive nearby to congratulate them on their good fortune. Insults to their own aesthetic tastes cause them to gain a point of Limit.

Physical: 2; Physical Styles: Flesh as Clay Style (8), Madcap Dancer Style (5)
Social: 5; Social Styles: Bewildering Barter Style (9), Dizzy Logic Style (9)
Mental: 3; Mental Styles: Connoisseuring Critique Style (10), Random artistic Style (7)
Enlightenment: 2;

Arms: SPD 5, ACC +2, DMG 2B, DEF 0, Rate 1, Range 5 yards (Hurling clay)
Armour: 2 (Thick clay)

Join Battle 1; DV 1
Accuracy: 4; Damage: 4B;
Soak 4; Health Levels; 2

MDV 4; Urge: Judge the Merits of Artwork
Principles: Dance (5), Music (5), Art (4), Everyone Getting Along (4), Bartering (3), Curiosity (3)

Fast Charms:
Mutative Dancers
Keywords: Obvious, Shaping
Agyakeruby warp the world like clay when they dance. Stone ripples, metal twists, wood warps and flesh flows like wax; growing more fluid and less formed as more of them gather. The stress of these changes tear at objects from within until they crumble, and even the survivors leave changed. At each interval, characters within the radius of a clay-kerub dance must roll Endurance+Survival to avoid mutation. This roll is Difficulty 2 at the first level and rises by 1 for each subsequent level. Failure inflicts a randomly chosen thematically-appropriate mutation, whose cost cannot exceed the number of successes the character failed by.

Flesh of Clay
No agyakerub looks exactly like another, for they can reshape themselves as they wish. A clay-kerub has a pool of (Enlightenment x 2) mutation points, which it can reassign with a dramatic action of one hour as it reshapes itself. 0-point Cosmetic mutations do not count towards this limit, but it can only have (Enlightenment x 2) of them at a time. Other agyakeruby can reshape a living canvas, as can anyone able to work with clay or apply mutations - though for obvious reasons this is difficult without the agyakerub's cooperation.

All three have, of course, been added to the main keruby writeup post.
 
Boy, that's a lot of diversity there. Eevees indeed.

I do wonder about how you're pursuing the Pantheon charms though. At this rate, all of Keris' souls are going to be coming from liasons with Yozis instead of purely herself as described in Titanic Heart Overweening. I wonder if such a soul (if it ever comes about) will consider itself different from those born from Yozi essence?
 
Peanuckle said:
I do wonder about how you're pursuing the Pantheon charms though. At this rate, all of Keris' souls are going to be coming from liasons with Yozis instead of purely herself as described in Titanic Heart Overweening. I wonder if such a soul (if it ever comes about) will consider itself different from those born from Yozi essence?
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Already decided on. Keris is going to have six Pantheon children - eight souls total if you count Dulmea and the po. They're not all going to come from actual direct Yozi contact - only Echo and Calesco have that; Rathan and Haneyl didn't - but they're all her children; her family.

Her other Titanic Heart Overweening souls will mostly be those coming from TLA Principles, and they won't be children or family members in the same way. Fluff-wise, they will in fact be qualitatively different; much less "tiny people with human psychology who can pass as godblooded in personality" and much more weird spirit things that are defined by the Principles they embody.
 
Nervaqus987 said:
Quick question.

The bits in front of "keruby " for their names, where does that come from?

I remember Keris mentioning something about how since Haneyl got her hands on them and altered them that they should be "sziromkeruby" instead of szelkeruby."
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Basically translations of their various aspects, in Hungarian. Sometimes butchered a bit to make them flow. The bits where they're referred to as wind-cherubs or clay-cherubs or whirlpool-cherubs? Those are basically the translations.

Szelkeruby: Wind cherubs.
Orvenkeruby: Whirlpool cherubs.
Sziromkeruby: Petal cherubs.
Viharkeruby: Storm cherubs.
Zenekeruby: Music cherubs.
Mezkeruby: Honey cherubs.
Femkeruby: Metal cherubs.
Agyakeruby: Clay cherubs.

In-setting, Keris is presumably butchering Old Realm for the names (dammit Keris).

And yes, the above three do indeed add to the keruby magical girl squad:
a) a mystical one who spends a lot of time scrying the future
b) a tomboy one who rides around at high speed on things, and
c) a dreamy artsy one who speaks in very odd ways and believes in nargles
 
Aleph said:
Her other Titanic Heart Overweening souls will mostly be those coming from TLA Principles, and they won't be children or family members in the same way. Fluff-wise, they will in fact be qualitatively different; much less "tiny people with human psychology who can pass as godblooded in personality" and much more defined by the Principle they embody.
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For once, Keris is showing a little bit of self-restraint. Among other things, it's probably a good idea to cap how many Third Circles you make. And leave yourself some room for having demons who won't cripple your self-identity if they get killed.

Aleph said:
In-setting, Keris is presumably butchering Old Realm for the names.
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This is what happened when Rivertongue speakers are let near a proper language. They mug it in a dark alleyway and steal its vocabulary.

(Haneyl is somewhat embarrassed by how her native language is Nexan-accented Rivertongue, while Calesco natively speaks perfect Old Realm, Rathan speaks Lintha Old Realm, and Echo doesn't speak at all, but carefully explains that she's miming in Other Mama's language which is better than Old Realm because everyone understands it and that Calesco can mime it too if she wants to because they're full sisters, not just half sisters.

This is one of the main reasons that Echo is viewed as probably the most annoying one by her siblings. The fact that she sometimes shows off that she's the most intelligent being in Keris' soul hierarchy.)
 
So I've been thinking of writing up some homebrew for fun and I wanted to ask, are there any guides for creating Third Circle demons? If there aren't, would somebody mind giving me a couple of do's and don'ts?

Also, @Aleph, in Kerisgame, Fetich souls are similar in power to Incarna, correct? At least, that's the impression I got from the enlightenment scale. If so, how do you handle the fact that Solars and Infernals might be able to summon Incarna level beings?
 
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runeblue360 said:
So I've been thinking of writing up some homebrew for fun and I wanted to ask, are there any guides for creating Third Circle demons? If there aren't, would somebody mind giving me a couple of do's and don'ts?
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There's no rules or anything for making Third Circles.

The closest thing to one is using the Viator of Nullspace(Compass: Autochthonia) to ballpark a Third Circle.
 
runeblue360 said:
So I've been thinking of writing up some homebrew for fun and I wanted to ask, are there any guides for creating Third Circle demons? If there aren't, would somebody mind giving me a couple of do's and don'ts?

Also, @Aleph, in Kerisgame, Fetich souls are similar in power to Incarna, correct? At least, that's the impression I got from the enlightenment scale. If so, how do you handle the fact that Solars and Infernals might be able to summon Incarna level beings?
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If you summon an Incarna level being, you have its personal attention, regardless of how you interact with it, and it is not going to forget you.
 
Biigoh said:
....

What the. But I didn't even reply. =∆=
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I am pretty sure i saw you quoting a post made by vicky_molokh, even if it isn't around anymore (I should have quoted it) which means that it was an error and you deleted it. That, or i am allucinating, or we have clumsy lunars infiltrators in the forums.

Hopefully it is the first, because allucinating isn't fun, and Clumsy Lunars are even worse. Damned strenght is now dexterity Nocturnal charms, you aren't supposed to be copied by lunars!

Also, going to write here what i actually want to do with my little two demons, because my mind is repeadetly crashing into itself trying to make sense of them.(Also procastination. So i have at least done something.)(Tring to find how to make fancy tabs failed no, wait, i remember a place in which i can crib the code. Fancy tab too fancy for me right now, will study and modify later)

First Demon:
Name: Not available yet. (something silly to do with shopper carts, given that it was randomly birthed by my mind when i was shopping.)

Use: Mainly as a mix of doorbell and anti thief alarm. Can also try to stun slightly inconvenience peoples with loud sounds, and try to throw pieces of its tarry body to someone, trying to induce either slippage or gluing. Can hide relatively well, but it is absolutely bad at fighting.

Theme: Okay, who the hell crossbreeded a Doorbeel, an anti thief alarm, a flamingo, a petroleum spill, and gave it snake scales on the neck and a fleshy starfish as a "beak"? (Answer, my wandering mind.)

Creator: The Merchant of Dreams(I've forgot the name and the third circle to which was linked, but i am pretty sure that this is the title of a second circle.)

Phisical appearance: a flamingo-like figure, completely covered in tar, with a fleshy starfish thing for beak, and barely visible snake scales on its neck. (covered by tar)

Fighting abilities: a decent grappler, but mostly grapples only to oil up enemies to make them slip and stuff. Could theorically try to strangle you or harden its tar to bind you, but a) you need to be pathetically weak for its to succed its strangling attempt. b) after its tar has been hardened the easiest way to get out of it involves it getting hurt, a lot. (If not plain dying, it is not that beefy.) c) it is kind of a coward, and don't want really to fight. Can also try to throw its tar to a distant target, but it is kinda bad at it.

Other abilities: can hide itself decently (Hefty bonuses if the place is dark), can screech in such a manner to not be heard by anyone but its target (Usually the target is the person it is trying to warm about intruders.), can try to screech in such a manner to slightly inconvenience someone (You could get more of them to achieve something that it is passable as a stun, but they keep screeching constantly to each other if not properly trained.), can slither through spaces too small for its body. (Its partially made of tar, it can compress itself.)

Likes: staying still, crawling in my wounds tight places, the other demon i am going to stat "statted" down here, being set on fire (it is how they reproduce)(The fire get quickly extingued though), protecting propriety.

Dislikes: thiefs, fighting.

Now it can slip through the crack of the prison: if someone is mourning the fact that quiet thieves have stolen things, whilst being close enough that a bit more noise would have revealed them.
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Second Demon:
Name: Not available yet. (something silly to do with either Splatoon or torch, potentially both)

Use: a glorified torch, a fire fighter, a psychedelic torch, a mix of handcuffs and full body binding (it is adjustable), a disco sphere torch, maybe also a light based stunning thing, very big maybe.

Theme: Its a flying octupus/torch! Also lots of differently colored lights because Octopusses are good at changing the color of their bodies

Creator: The Merchant of Dreams(I've forgot the name and the third circle to which was linked, but i am pretty sure that this is the title of a second circle.)

Phisical appearance: a flying Octopus, its body strangely shiny and multicolored and fluid. Can shapeshift easily in the form of a torch and other things that make light.

Fighting abilities: a good grappler, with more of a focus on stopping the enemy than hurting it. Can shiny in such a manner to make it difficult to see/ inconvenience peoples around it. Somehow far bulkier than the tar flamingo.

Other abilities: can hide itself decently by shapeshifing into torches and other light making stuff, can consume fire and fuel(by igniting it)(it can potentially cure itself by consuming enough fire, but i am wary on giving anything a regen ability. I know that it is usually either utterly broken or completely useless.), can ignite things quite easily (Mostly to eat the fire), can make light without having fuel to burn (this form of light doesn't reveal the other demon up there, leaving it into shadows), if the green sun shines everywhere in malfeas without care for walls(Cannot really remember), then can eat light itself

Likes: staying still, teh pretty lightsssss, the other demon i am going to stat "statted" up there, eating fire, protecting propriety, trapping peoples.

Dislikes: thiefs, fireproof things, firestarting things.

Now it can slip through the crack of the prison: if someone is mourning the fact that stealthy thieves have stolen things, whilst being close enough that a bit more light would have revealed them.
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And now, somebody may have noticed than one can be set on fire relatively easily, and the other can set on fire things relatively easily. Also, the two demons happen to like each other.

What could this mean???

And then everything was devoured by the fire. (I have other things to do now, so i will answer later.)
 
Giygas said:
Creator: The Merchant of Dreams(I've forgot the name and the third circle to which was linked, but i am pretty sure that this is the title of a second circle.)
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I believe you're thinking of Makarios, the Sigil's Dreamer, Warden Soul of That Which Calls To The Shadows. (I had Games of Divinity open to the demons chapter already.)
 
runeblue360 said:
So I've been thinking of writing up some homebrew for fun and I wanted to ask, are there any guides for creating Third Circle demons? If there aren't, would somebody mind giving me a couple of do's and don'ts?
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Third Circles are demon princes. In most fantasy settings, they'd be the big bads. Therefore, they shouldn't be something you can ignore. Even when they're a not too bright drunkard (like my Imre), they're still meaningful.

Third Circles should come with plot hooks. Things they care about, schemes they have for doing things in Creation, rivals among the Third Circles, old grudges against specific types of Exalted, whatever.

Third Circles are town-killers. Every Third Circle in Games of Divinity can wipe out a town without too much effort, even if they're Jacinct and they just crush the town under a road. Combat focussed ones like Ligier melt armies of mortals.

Also, @Aleph, in Kerisgame, Fetich souls are similar in power to Incarna, correct? At least, that's the impression I got from the enlightenment scale. If so, how do you handle the fact that Solars and Infernals might be able to summon Incarna level beings?
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Because the Enlightenment 10 Solar/Infernal who can do that is a peer of fetiches and Incarna.

Also, a summoning of a Third Circle is a non-trivial exercise that takes a substantial mote commitment or infrastructural limitation [1]. So, sure, you have a Third Circle obeying you if you manage to successfully bind it (this is far from a given, considering that you have similar mote pools). But, for example, if the Third Circle is anchored by a cult? All your enemies have to do to banish them is murder the mortals. If they're bound to a manse, they can't leave it. And if your personal mote pool is keeping them around, you're notably weakened.

[1] Like building a specialist manse that's dedicated to them that's a place they can exist, or building up a very large cult that can keep them around.
 
Speaking of Jacint,

Apart from building roads, I'm trying to think of any big infrastructure projects that would be pretty universal throughout human history.

If only because I want to see a Third Circle whose main focus is building dams
 
EarthScorpion said:
Third Circles are demon princes. In most fantasy settings, they'd be the big bads. Therefore, they shouldn't be something you can ignore. Even when they're a not too bright drunkard (like my Imre), they're still meaningful.

Third Circles should come with plot hooks. Things they care about, schemes they have for doing things in Creation, rivals among the Third Circles, old grudges against specific types of Exalted, whatever.

Third Circles are town-killers. Every Third Circle in Games of Divinity can wipe out a town without too much effort, even if they're Jacinct and they just crush the town under a road. Combat focussed ones like Ligier melt armies of mortals.
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Hmm. So they should be able to function as both characters in a story and living plot hooks? Thanks for the advice.

EarthScorpion said:
Because the Enlightenment 10 Solar/Infernal who can do that is a peer of fetiches and Incarna.
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I see. I had thought that they would be relatively more powerful due to the fact that they have access to a panoply's worth of endboss powers. Or do those powers represent capability expanders and iconic abilities rather than straightforward enhancements?
 
runeblue360 said:
I see. I had thought that they would be relatively more powerful due to the fact that they have access to a panoply's worth of endboss powers. Or do those powers represent capability expanders and iconic abilities rather than straightforward enhancements?
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Your Enlightenment 10 Solar/Infernal is also an endboss.

You just happen to be playing them.

(In the case of the Infernal, they'll almost certainly already have a one-winged angel form and with the right charms they can even have a bunch of Things in Corners to sing the Sephiroth song after they transform.)
 
fitzgerald said:
If only because I want to see a Third Circle whose main focus is building dams
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Honestly, you'd be better of just getting Amalion to build a manse shaped like a dam. Infastructure demons like Jacint and Amalion are powerful because of the flexibility of their powers; Jacint can build a road that goes over water, lava and into the sky and over mountains while Amalion can build a huge variety of manses with tons of different powers.
 
runeblue360 said:
Hmm. So they should be able to function as both characters in a story and living plot hooks? Thanks for the advice.



I see. I had thought that they would be relatively more powerful due to the fact that they have access to a panoply's worth of endboss powers. Or do those powers represent capability expanders and iconic abilities rather than straightforward enhancements?
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Do keep in mind ES is talking about his homebrew rules hack, and that Solar Sorcerers are, in general, vastly weaker than Third Circles they attempt to summon. You get Sorcery at Essence 5, at which point you are a seriously big deal. But Third Circles are a bigger deal, and if you fail to bind them you will probably die and it will probably kill a lot of people before the Sidereals can get it banished. Summoning a Third Circle gives you a servant who can punch way above your weight class, but has a lot of dangers and is high-risk at the best of times. Unless you're wanting to write with ES's rules hack. In which case, ignore everything I just said. But the original question didn't seem to be about that particular thing. So I figured I'd give the canon view on the position as well.

(In general, 3CD's in 2.5 are gonna rock any utility spirit Charm you want, 22-25 dice pools before excellencies, 32-35 with the spirit IAM up, and a spread of powerful panoply abilities. Likely a lot of stuff to even out issues with being outnumbered, and mote pools hovering close to 200.)
 
Fenrir666 said:
Solar Sorcerers are, in general, vastly weaker than Third Circles they attempt to summon.
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Not... Really?
Fenrir666 said:
(In general, 3CD's in 2.5 are gonna rock any utility spirit Charm you want, 22-25 dice pools before excellencies, 32-35 with the spirit IAM up, and a spread of powerful panoply abilities. Likely a lot of stuff to even out issues with being outnumbered, and mote pools hovering close to 200.)
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I mean, I'd need to optimise a fair bit to match that, but the only part of that which is out of reach for an Essence 5 Exalt is the 200 mote pool, and that's largely a non-issue because spirit charms tend to be expensive. When I say 'optimise a fair bit', I mean regular optimisation, not immortality build munchkinry.

Duelling somebody like Madelrada solo is hard, sure, but ES is essentially correct that an Enlightenment 10/Essence 5 A.C.E. is a peer who can do that.
 
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Imrix said:
Not... Really?
I mean, I'd need to optimise a fair bit, but the only part of that which is out of reach for an Essence 5 Exalt is the 200 mote pool, and that's largely a non-issue because spirit charms tend to be expensive.
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Honestly, yeah, my mistake, this is hugely variable. How much XP did they have, what are your specs, what sort of backup do you have. 2.5 was pretty crazy, if you have a combaty Sorcerer, or a Dawn Caste ally of comparable power backing you up, you can probably take a Third Circle as written. Or earlier. Mind, I usually take into account that the write ups are incomplete (and the Viator explicitly goes 'he has a ton of storyteller determined powers), so my own homebrew would make them spike way higher than the books. But as written, yeah, they're not that much stronger. I think this is a really bad failing of 2E, mind. The flavor seemed to stress them being exceptionally dangerous even for experienced Exalts to summon. That they can't perform as a bossfight for a circle of E5 Solars was a failing of the writing, in my eyes. But that's just my read of it.

So, yeah, RuneBlue, the power disparity isn't as strong as I remembered. There's room for 'Ligier loses the duel with the E5 Dawn meleeist' and 'Ligier duals your entire E5 circle to a standstill' in what was actually written (the fluff indicates the latter, all the mechanics indicate the former). So, I'm gonna amend my suggestion to "Read Games of Divinity and Rolls: Demons and Ghosts and the Viator's template, and figure out what you want from Third Circles'.
 
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