General Exalted Thread

[zorb42]

I think it might be interesting to run comparison between the stated goals of developers and hoe does the new edition fulfill them, but i do not remember the goals that much so I will begin and hope others join in.

Stated goals : Fullfillment
Eliminating charm bloat: Nope, Nope, Nope ,
Eliminating fiddly math and the needed minmaxing : Apparently not.
Fixing sorcery: Seems to be sufficiently cool and functioning, but time will tell on this one.
Fixing craft: For given a value of fixed fulfilled? It still seems to be problematic and wobbly and I do not really consider it just fails much less, than the previous system, but still fails a defense.
Making mortals individually important nad elevating them to be more than mooks resource or scenery: No idea here.
Lessening the divide between various splats by shunting them closer in power level, instead of outright nerfing: Only time will tell here
Killing Solars do everything close to the best: These leaks do not fill me with optimism, but we need other splats to pronounce this one.
Making artifacts at best rare and mostly extremely rare and thus killing the magitech feel and making it close to bronze age: Complete honesty, this killed my interest in the game hard, because writers insisted hard on this one, but the way craft workss call this into question and leaves me confused.

 

[CircleTheSkies]

Hey, I could have fun playing a Solar chef. I mean, he'd have other stuff as well, but having the central core being food is quite doable.

 

[landcollector]

Hey, I could have fun playing a Solar chef. I mean, he'd have other stuff as well, but having the central core being food is quite doable.

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There's even a homebrew 2e/2.5e MA style that has cooking as a major theme behind it. Might be interesting to convert to 3e mechanics...

 

[notanautomaton]

Fixing craft: For given a value of fixed fulfilled? It still seems to be problematic and wobbly and I do not really consider it just fails much less, than the previous system, but still fails a defense.

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It's a bad system, though I have no idea if it's better than last edition or not. However, since it's still broken, I'd say that they haven't fixed it.

Killing Solars do everything close to the best: These leaks do not fill me with optimism, but we need other splats to pronounce this one.

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Given that Solars have the last circle of sorcery, are the only ones that can use mastery effects in martial arts, and can use evocations just as well as every other splat, this is looking to be a failure.

Making artifacts at best rare and mostly extremely rare and thus killing the magitech feel and making it close to bronze age: Complete honesty, this killed my interest in the game hard, because writers insisted hard on this one, but the way craft workss call this into question and leaves me confused.

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There are three exalted npcs that do not have artifacts, and there's no support for crafting non-artifact items other than the most basic charms like craftsman needs no tools.

I think that mortals are more of an individual threat now, so that's a success.

They also said that they wanted to make sure that Solars only have the themes of human excellence, eliminating as much from other themes as possible. Given that solars get retcon robot body-doubles, the ability to nuke anywhere in creation, and the ability to hide in a persons shadow and take control of them I'd call this a failure as well. They failed at the release date as well, so chalk another one up.

So while it's an okay edition of Exalted, it fails at almost all of its goals, and I'm really wondering what the devs reactions will be once people can talk about the rules and air their grievances on the official forums and rpg.net.

 

[Chloe Sullivan]

Given that Solars have the last circle of sorcery, are the only ones that can use mastery effects in martial arts, and can use evocations just as well as every other splat, this is looking to be a failure.

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I think you're not being fair here. Solars are still supposed to be at the pinnacle of exalted power, they were just narrowing the gaps. The sorcery revision and the changes in perfects seem like they may help towards that end.

The goal was for other splats to have their niches where they excelled, so that solars didn't eclipse (lol) them in *every* respect. to an extent, even 2e had that, but i think the goal for 3e was to make niche specialties broader and more important, to make it feel less like only solars mattered.

 

[MJ12 Commando]

You know, I wonder what would have happened if they had abandoned the idea of Solars as being "the Exalts of human excellence" and went all-in on the themes of the Unconquered Sun, those being 'inhuman perfection,' 'leader and inspirational figure without fear,' 'fucking sun lasers,' and 'nuclear fusion.'

(One of these might not actually be one of the Unconquered Sun's themes)

At least having nuclear fusion as one of those themes makes Ess 5 charms that nuke cities totes valid thematic space.

 

[Cosar]

You know, I wonder what would have happened if they had abandoned the idea of Solars as being "the Exalts of human excellence" and went all-in on the themes of the Unconquered Sun, those being 'inhuman perfection,' 'leader and inspirational figure without fear,' 'fucking sun lasers,' and 'nuclear fusion.'

(One of these might not actually be one of the Unconquered Sun's themes)

At least having nuclear fusion as one of those themes makes Ess 5 charms that nuke cities totes valid thematic space.

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Given that Biblical Prophets have been considered valid design space for Solars in pretty much every edition, I don't think a charm allowing them to do biblical prophet type stuff is out of line with their themes.

 

[sebsmith]

Not to mention the newbie trap presented by the Third Excellency as pretty much anything other than a late step DV booster or the fucking stupid way that First Excellency interacted with static values.

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In essence, it's basically never worth it to use the Third Solar Excellency. Either use First Solar Excellency to get the high probability of success and high expected value, or the Second Solar Excellency to guarantee success and a high expected value.

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??

Okay, this seems like an odd stance to take. I distinctly remember from playing the Exalted board game that how useful a third excellency would have been. There it would have helped with mote efficiency. It also helps raise static values, which includes both the above DV boost and the difficulty you set on the lies you make.

I'll give an example of what it can do, which is broadly applicable to any mildly similar situation.

I'm infiltrating a mansion in which every door is locked and for whatever reason I would very much like to minimize attempting to unlock the same door multiple times[1]. I have a large enough dice pool I will normally succeed on opening doors[2]. I only have a limited amount of motes, so spending enough on each door to guarantee success is undesirable [3]. With the third excellency, I can roll again on the few times I would have failed, thus reducing total failures significantly[4].

[1] Maybe the doors have been rigged with alarms
[2] Maybe 10 dice vs difficulty 3
[3] I might be saving motes for the final boss fight, or drawing primarily from my personal pool.
[4] Using the example from [2] above, each time I try I have a roughly 11% chance of failure. With regular use of the third excellency, whenever I fail the first roll, I reduce that to ~1.3%.

 

[Aleph]

Given that Biblical Prophets have been considered valid design space for Solars in pretty much every edition, I don't think a charm allowing them to do biblical prophet type stuff is out of line with their themes.

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Cool, me neither in principle, though I would personally say that the Ten Plagues are Sorcery (see also: Emerald Circle, "River of Blood").

Unfortunately, GKS isn't biblical prophet type stuff, because there's no need to actually prophesise or warn people of their impending doom, and you can in fact fire it at Gem while leaning back in your comfortable Artifact 4 office chair with your feet up on your desk in Whitewall.

 

[Cosar]

Cool, me neither in principle, though I would personally say that the Ten Plagues are Sorcery (see also: Emerald Circle, "River of Blood").

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I'd be more inclined towards that as well, though I can see why someone would want it to be native to the charmset.

Unfortunately, GKS isn't biblical prophet type stuff, because there's no need to actually prophesise or warn people of their impending doom, and you can in fact fire it at Gem while leaning back in your comfortable Artifact 4 office chair with your feet up on your desk in Whitewall.

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I agree. But MJ12 Commando wasn't talking specifically about GKS, but more generally about charms that can have similar results(ie, have the potential to destroy cities).

 

[notthepenguins]

Given that Biblical Prophets have been considered valid design space for Solars in pretty much every edition, I don't think a charm allowing them to do biblical prophet type stuff is out of line with their themes.

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Cool, me neither in principle, though I would personally say that the Ten Plagues are Sorcery (see also: Emerald Circle, "River of Blood").

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Biblical Prophets are valid inspiration... but the plagues seem pretty shaky to argue as an example of biblical prophet power, seeing as that was God, not Moses.

Incidentally, it would be interesting if the Charm instead allowed you to amplify a god's power over their domain while they acted in line with a proclamation you made (of course, you'd need to convince them to help you first, but that's part of what Zeniths are for in the first place). So instead of instamagically reality warping a volcano into erupting, you empower a god into making his volcano erupt right fuckin now.

 

[MJ12 Commando]

I agree. But MJ12 Commando wasn't talking specifically about GKS, but more generally about charms that can have similar results(ie, have the potential to destroy cities).

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I didn't state it by name, but I think everyone knew what I was insinuating.

 

[horngeek]

It seems to me, however, that a Charm based on the Ten Plagues specifically would be more accurately modeled with a different ability than Lore.

Cool, me neither in principle, though I would personally say that the Ten Plagues are Sorcery (see also: Emerald Circle, "River of Blood").

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I remember when I was reading the White and Black Treatises, and kept going 'oh, hey, Jericho! Oh, hey, one of the Plagues!'

 

[Cosar]

I didn't state it by name, but I think everyone knew what I was insinuating.

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I knew it was at least partially a reference to it, though the use of plural implied that it was not limited to one specific example, and more towards the concept of such charms.

 

[Revlid]

Biblical Prophets are valid inspiration... but the plagues seem pretty shaky to argue as an example of biblical prophet power, seeing as that was God, not Moses.

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Weren't pretty much all the feats of Biblical prophets down to God? Like, as a matter of basic doctrine?

 

[Aleph]

I remember when I was reading the White and Black Treatises, and kept going 'oh, hey, Jericho! Oh, hey, one of the Plagues!'

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Trufax: River of Blood cast through the Kimbery Initiation is hilarious. When my Scourge learns it, she's going to be... uh... even more capable of exterminating entire towns than she is right now, which is admittedly already pretty fucking capable. She'll be able to do it a lot faster, though, and that's what really matters.

 

[notthepenguins]

Weren't pretty much all the feats of Biblical prophets down to God? Like, as a matter of basic doctrine?

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Yeah, mostly (you could go to a subset of them that don't include God's actions, though, and you pretty much end with the Zenith ability spread + Wrestling) but the emphasis in the whole plagues business seemed to me to be stronger than it is elsewhere in the deeds of the various patriarchs.

 

[MJ12 Commando]

Trufax: River of Blood cast through the Kimbery Initiation is hilarious. When my Scourge learns it, she's going to be... uh... even more capable of exterminating entire towns than she is right now, which is admittedly already pretty fucking capable. She'll be able to do it a lot faster, though, and that's what really matters.

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If you're going to commit mass murder, it's best to be efficient about it, right?

 

[Chloe Sullivan]

Biblical Prophets are valid inspiration... but the plagues seem pretty shaky to argue as an example of biblical prophet power, seeing as that was God, not Moses.

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Zeniths have Resistance Survival as caste because Zeniths were designed with Elijah/Juan Baptisto in mind. Like seriously, i think Moses was specifically mentioned by GG as an archetype for a solar, next to King Arthur.

Anything about the OT Israelites is completely valid design space for Zeniths, who are, after all, sanctioned priests of the biggest deity around.

(Ten Plagues style stuff should be survival charms, if you're not doing them as sorcery.)

 

[Anasurimbor]

Weren't pretty much all the feats of Biblical prophets down to God? Like, as a matter of basic doctrine?

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Ultimately, yes, but they were very often carried out by individuals empowered by God.

 

[Havocfett]

Weren't pretty much all the feats of Biblical prophets down to God? Like, as a matter of basic doctrine?

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Yes. It is a rather important doctrine of faith. Christianity makes an exception for Christ on account of him being God, while Islam and Judaism make no such exceptions.

(Also, 'being a biblical prophet' would require you to bring warnings of the great calamity and a way to avert/save yourselves from it, with consequences coming only if the message is not followed. This is just "I foresee a SPONTANEOUS NUCLEAR EXPLOSION" and then boom, no way to deal with it.

It's shit at prophethood, is what I'm saying. But hey, most media is shit at prophetic/savior themes.)

 

[Tiresias]

Weren't pretty much all the feats of Biblical prophets down to God? Like, as a matter of basic doctrine?

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I'm assuming that's why Solars have the power to call down cataclysms. Solars aren't divine prophets, they're God imposing divine judgment to burn down Sodom and Gomorrah and flood humanity into extinction so that only the righteous may live.

For a given definition of "righteous" anyway.

 

[Imrix]

I think part of the problem with these discussions is that 'Simulationism' has gotten kind of a weird reputation. @Jon Chung suggested 'Immersionism' as an alternative in a private conversation, and I agree.

I mean, 'true' simulationism in the sense of simulating the world IS clunky and impractical - that basically ends up as, 'here is a complete physics engine'. That's not really what appeals to most 'simulationists' though, or at least not to me.

Rather, the important part is that the world holds together. Suspension of disbelief is critical in storytelling - this isn't a new or advanced thing, Tolkien was laying down the concept of Secondary Belief decades ago. Incoherency, not how anal we can get about, say, ballistic flight trajectories, is the death of my ability to immerse myself in a simulated world in order to tell, or even simply enjoy, a story. The 'resolution' of the simulation is not important - what is important is that it remains coherent.

 

[Carrnage]

Also, 'being a biblical prophet' would require you to bring warnings of the great calamity and a way to avert/save yourselves from it, with consequences coming only if the message is not followed.

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Sounds like a high essence Cecelyne charm.

 

[earthboy]

I think part of the problem with these discussions is that 'Simulationism' has gotten kind of a weird reputation. @Jon Chung suggested 'Immersionism' as an alternative in a private conversation, and I agree.

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Ugh, hell no. "Immersion" is already a very heavily charged term and picking a new term which could be mistaken for "immersion" is just asking for misunderstandings.

I can totally see someone saying that rolling dice during conversation "breaks immersion", even though that's what a physics simulator would tell you to do.

I mean, 'true' simulationism in the sense of simulating the world IS clunky and impractical - that basically ends up as, 'here is a complete physics engine'. That's not really what appeals to most 'simulationists' though, or at least not to me.

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IIRC that's also not what Forge Simulationism actually is.

The weird thing is that the pop-culture definition -- which is technically wrong -- is also vastly more useful than the Forge definition.

Rather, the important part is that the world holds together. Suspension of disbelief is critical in storytelling - this isn't a new or advanced thing, Tolkien was laying down the concept of Secondary Belief decades ago. Incoherency, not how anal we can get about, say, ballistic flight trajectories, is the death of my ability to immerse myself in a simulated world in order to tell, or even simply enjoy, a story. The 'resolution' of the simulation is not important - what is important is that it remains coherent.

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The thing is, immersion in a game is not identical to immersion in a story. Nor is it entirely divorced.

Coherent mechanics which allow you to make predictions about risk and reward, and which allow you to understand the context of game events, and which reward your understanding with more power to shape the course of the game (possibly leading to victory in games with Win conditions) -- IMHO all that is game-immersion, while it's not necessarily literary-immersion.