General Exalted Thread

[notanautomaton]

Because if you answer 'yes' to this question, then this is the book telling you "uncounterable strategic nuclear weaponry and Creation-wide retcon teleportation are okay at Ability 5 Essence 5." It doesn't matter if not every Solar can get God King's Shrike. It means it's okay charm design space for a Solar with War 5 Essence 5 to create "Walker's Last Damnation," a War charm that lets him kill an entire city via coincidental events just by refusing to turn back. It's okay charm space for a Solar with Melee 5 Essence 5 to create "Continent Shattering Slash," a Melee charm that lets him cut Creation so deeply that lava spouts out and engulfs an entire region. It's okay charm space for a Solar with Resistance 5 Essence 5 to create "Second Coming Prana" which lets him get back up a week after dying no matter what killed him. It's okay charm space for a Solar with Lore 5 Essence 5 to create "Preordained Legend Mantra" which means that the Solar cannot die because he writes his own goddamn story and in that story you're the bad guy who gets his ass beaten.

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Now I really want to start writing these charms and post them where the devs will see them once the edition actually gets released. Just like my "fix" that makes non craft abilities more specific, so Melee (swords) doesn't work if you want to hold a spear, ect.

*And, in craft, the relative ease of gaining crafting xp - although it's not *quite* as easy as some depict. The basic objectives are "someone is strongly affected by the crafting", "an intimacy is assisted by the crafting" and "the character clearly gains from the crafting". Interpreting that last one as "getting paid some amount" is... questionable, in my mind. The amount of a payment needs to be important to the character, it would seem to me - either because of the magnitude or because it allows the acquisition of something immediately desired.

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The solution to this is simple: debt. First you spend all your money on hookers and blow, putting you deeply in debt to the local bank. Then you craft a few thousand spoons and get out of debt, getting massive amounts of crafting xp. Then, celebrate with a hookers/blow party. Continue until you have seven figures of wxp.

Fuck that, I'm grabbing the nearest dozen villagers and shunting them into the Caldera just to shut the volcano god up

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I'm pretty sure that in this edition the volcano god may or may not have the ability to stop the volcano from erupting, or make it erupt, or whatever. So your main solutions still destroy the city but with less loss of life, or only have half a chance of working. Unless of course you have some other brilliant stratagem up your sleeve of course.

 

[notthepenguins]

A volcano begins to smoke ominously and you can't think of anything an Exalt can do to avert it beyond "find a suitable spell or charm to autowin?"

Fuck that, I'm grabbing the nearest dozen villagers and shunting them into the Caldera just to shut the volcano god up

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Sure, that'll work real well...

Each god watches over a portfolio of responsibility, from the gods of the least wilderness trails to the goddess of the Imperial Mountain. They are invested with limited power over their domains, and garner more through worship or promotion.

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Unless your local volcano god is crazy badass, this won't do shit.

I note that you didn't contest the issue with the behemoth at all.

 

[Shyft]

A volcano begins to smoke ominously and you can't think of anything an Exalt can do to avert it beyond "find a suitable spell or charm to autowin?"

Fuck that, I'm grabbing the nearest dozen villagers and shunting them into the Caldera just to shut the volcano god up

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This here is actually surprisingly relevant- the problem is that this is not made clear at all in the text of the charm.

You, Deations, have proposed a wonderful way for the players to interact with the charm. This is not sarcastic. I know it sounds sarcastic but it's not.

Here's the reason why: You figured out a way to, as an ST, use the charm and create a story. Unfortunately, it's the exact same problem 2e had- the setting and the way to interact with it at this level is painfully opaque! You have to read between the lines to an extent that is very difficult for a wide audience, and that creates a poor reception to an otherwise positive thing!

So it's great that you can find a way to interact with the charm. My argument, such as it is, is that this kind of interaction should be made much clearer to players and storytellers.

Games, at their core, are teaching tools. You teach people the rules, you teach them how to use those rules as tools, and fun is had from discovering interactions, accomplishing feats within the framework, and so on. YOU, Deations, have succeeded where the writers of 3e have failed.

That failure is the problem. It's never been you.

 

[Carrnage]

"Walker's Last Damnation," a War charm that lets him kill an entire city via coincidental events just by refusing to turn back.

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i wonder if references count as quoting?

 

[Omicron]

My take on God King's Shrike is that it's a Charm that has limitations not explicitely written in the text.

Like, I'm not generally big on "Sidereal hit squads," but when you spend a week making research and astrological preparations to set up a huge region-destroying disaster... Well, Heaven might take notice. It kinda falls under their purview.

 

[azoicennead]

Seriously? Because the only Behemoth in the Corebook so far is Mata-Yadh, who rolls about 13 Dice and has about 30 motes. The very first Immaculate Monk, by contrast, gets about 14 dice sans excellencies. I'd be more intimidated by the flood, and Nexus's slums have those yearly every monsoon season because fuck architecture for the poor.

EDIT: I mean admittedly, Mata-Yadh is still described as on the low end for behemoths, but the fact that a single dragonblood is sufficient kind of tells me that things might not be so terrible.

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Yes, because every city has Immaculate Monks sitting around waiting for a crisis so they can save the city!
Except... They don't.
Especially not one that can throw around 14 dice without charms.
Seriously, a behemoth is still a fucking tactical nuke equivalent in Creation. It takes one of the <1% of people who are Exalts to handle one.

Well, let's hope they drop it, because I'm fucking sick of talking about it. The easy craft xp thing will hit a wall as soon as you can no longer achieve a meaningful resource gain with it as well.

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Nope, still two other objectives that grant craft xp!

A battle-group of war-ghosts or Mata-Yadh are nowhere near a falling star (which a Solar can totally Perfect Defense away). The falling star's a bad example to put in there because it's so very far above the scale of the other two seemingly equivalent things.

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The fact that a falling star can be blocked by a PD is kind of irrelevant to the fact that it's a ludicrously over-powered ability to include, especially since it's available at chargen.
I mean, really, it's a fucking tactical nuke, even the weaker possibilities.

The solution to this is simple: debt. First you spend all your money on hookers and blow, putting you deeply in debt to the local bank. Then you craft a few thousand spoons and get out of debt, getting massive amounts of crafting xp. Then, celebrate with a hookers/blow party. Continue until you have seven figures of wxp.

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This sounds like a plan my players would use.

 

[Deations]

Sure, that'll work real well...

Unless your local volcano god is crazy badass, this won't do shit.

I note that you didn't contest the issue with the behemoth at all.

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oh my god

Since the fall of the Shogunate, the volcano god Hamoji has aided the people of Abalone. Oral scriptures tell of how he scorched the plague cities with his fires and swept away the Fair Folk who'd snared his people in chains of dreams and spider-silk. But the madness of the Wyld blossomed in the heart of the great volcano, and Hamoji had less and less contact with his priestesses and prophets as it spread. He has not spoken since Seahaven submitted to the Realm, whose satraps exact a regular tribute of silver, foodstuffs, liquor and jade. Now the priestesses must guess at his will, knowing only that his anger stirs the volcano to violence that can be abated by nothing but human sacrifice.

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I guess they're just suckers or the book is lying, and no, I'm not gonna address the behemoth thing because thus far there's no fucking behemoth to address

YOU, Deations, have succeeded where the writers of 3e have failed.

That failure is the problem. It's never been you.

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Yaaay but I don't think I really care all that much right now

Yes, because every city has Immaculate Monks sitting around waiting for a crisis so they can save the city!
Except... They don't.
Especially not one that can throw around 14 dice without charms.
Seriously, a behemoth is still a fucking tactical nuke equivalent in Creation. It takes one of the <1% of people who are Exalts to handle one.

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Dragonbloods being the most ubiquitious and weakest of the Exalt types, in a setting filled to the brim with gods, demons, and supernatural beings. At least if 2E numbers in Scroll of Heroes hold right, every major city in Creation holds at least one or two Dragonblooded on average.

Nope, still two other objectives that grant craft xp!

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Yes but those actually require roleplaying and interacting with the setting instead of sitting in your craft-hole carving spoons all day. The debt thing is also something I disagree with because you still retain your original resources rating, you just get an additional flaw called "debt." At best you're pulling yourself out of the hole instead of making any real agains, and at worst I will slap anyone who tries to pose something like that to me at my table silly for trying to rules lawyer the system so blatantly.

My take on God King's Shrike is that it's a Charm that has limitations not explicitely written in the text.

Like, I'm not generally big on "Sidereal hit squads," but when you spend a week making research and astronomical preparations to set up a huge region-destroying disaster... Well, Heaven might take notice.

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Omicron, seriously. They won't care.

It's late. Get some sleep.

 

[Omicron]

Omicron, seriously. They won't care.

It's late. Get some sleep.

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Man, don't you know? I'm famous for this! I was browsing the 4chan Exalted thread the other day and I saw this very thread described as... well it was pretty rude really, but it ended on "while Omicron, for some retarded reason, tries to talk to them." Actual quote.

The Internet has declared it so!

 

[Deations]

Man, don't you know? I'm famous for this! I was browsing the 4chan Exalted thread the other day and I saw this very thread described as... well it was pretty rude really, but it ended on "while Omicron, for some retarded reason, tries to talk to them."

The Internet has declared it so!

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there is no reason retarded enough to do this at three in the morning

 

[Jon Chung]

My take on God King's Shrike is that it's a Charm that has limitations not explicitely written in the text.

Like, I'm not generally big on "Sidereal hit squads," but when you spend a week making research and astrological preparations to set up a huge region-destroying disaster... Well, Heaven might take notice. It kinda falls under their purview.

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Ha ha ha, wow. Yes, so the "I have a strategic nuke I can set off anywhere in Creation at chargen" charm is apparently OK because Ketchup will kill you before it goes off. I'm glad to hear that, I really am. Heh. Heh.

 

[notanautomaton]

You know, I seem to remember that Holden once came here. He got yelled at over Celestial Bliss Trick until he rage-quit.

 

[Deations]

You know, I seem to remember that Holden once came here. He got yelled at over Celestial Bliss Trick until he rage-quit.

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No, I think I see where he's coming from now, honestly.

 

[Kylar]

On craft and craft xp: I have a better example then spoons (as amusing as that one is). See, Craft (Cooking) is a thing. So what you do is you open a restraunt. Or a tea house. For extra hilarity, you do it somewhere like the Shire, where the residents have an absurd number of meals a day. This is a bit longer term then the hundreds of spoons plan, (though you could totally run a promotion with the intent of the equivalent hundreds of crafted spoons) but its ultimately far harder for ST to call shenanigans on. Well, and for the ST to go 'you have crashed the market for spoons, and thus no longer can make money off them' or things like that.

The craft system really does need a framework for bulk crafting, particularly on the rewards side. I'm also not completely adverse to the idea of removing silver xp altogether, though I'd need to sit down and look over the complications of that. At the very least, it would cut the Craft charm tree down a bit.

 

[Omicron]

Ha ha ha, wow. Yes, so the "I have a strategic nuke I can set off anywhere in Creation at chargen" charm is apparently OK because Ketchup will kill you before it goes off. I'm glad to hear that, I really am. Heh. Heh.

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No? The failure of your imagination is on you, not on my example.

I would run this as a couple of sessions within the story involving the use of GKS - the Solar, during his preparatory work, would suffer from interruptions by divine forces, likely spirits, forcing them to defend themselves and involving the rest of the circle. If I deem it an appropriate challenge for the group, the preparation of this Charm may allow a Bronze Faction member to pinpoint their location and gather an had oc (but hastily put together, and constrained by the need for proximity) Wyld Hunt to come and hit them. Unfortunately, the limited timeframe (and the fact that Creation is a place in turmoil) would prevent anything like "Bronze Faction circle dropping on the group and murdering them with SMA."

The main problems will follow after the use of this Charm, where the Solar's power is significantly limited, and their location known, forcing them to either flee or begin to set up their defenses for the coming of a stronger, more prepared Wyld Hunt.

 

[azoicennead]

Dragonbloods being the most ubiquitious and weakest of the Exalt types, in a setting filled to the brim with gods, demons, and supernatural beings. At least if 2E numbers in Scroll of Heroes hold right, every major city in Creation holds at least one or two Dragonblooded on average.

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And? They're not all going to be capable of handling a behemoth that would otherwise destroy the city.
First, you're assuming they're all combat-focused. Second, you're assuming they're as strong as someone who is achieving enlightenment via kung fu. Third, you're assuming they both want to defend the city and can defend the city.

Yes but those actually require roleplaying and interacting with the setting instead of sitting in your craft-hole carving spoons all day. The debt thing is also something I disagree with because you still retain your original resources rating, you just get an additional flaw called "debt." At best you're pulling yourself out of the hole instead of making any real agains, and at worst I will slap anyone who tries to pose something like that to me at my table silly for trying to game the system so blatantly.

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Getting out of debt is making real gains, but regardless nope.
I can sit in my crafting hole all fucking year churning out gear for the army my character has an intimacy for without leaving my hole. This also causes all the people I'm gearing up to be grateful because I just made their gear (minor Intimacy of gratefulness).
Look, either of those ensures I gain 1 cxp without roleplaying at all. Yep, totally need to RP to get cxp.

My take on God King's Shrike is that it's a Charm that has limitations not explicitely written in the text.

Like, I'm not generally big on "Sidereal hit squads," but when you spend a week making research and astrological preparations to set up a huge region-destroying disaster... Well, Heaven might take notice. It kinda falls under their purview.

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If it's not written in or made obvious in the charm's text, adding costs like this falls under Rule 0 (even when they make sense), which as I've pointed out is basically saying "it's not broken because you can fix it".
So, you're not wrong, but that doesn't make the charm that was written that we're discussing any better.

EDIT: The one point that I will agree with Deation on is that it's fucking 3 AM and I should be sleeping, not arguing about shit I only kind of care about on the internet. I enjoy arguing far more than I should.

 

[Jon Chung]

Jon, you're taking a single description of how the charm might manifest, and building up an elaborate headcanon about how this is basically an infallible weapon of mass destruction, instead of 'whatever the fuck might pop into the GMs head using the descriptions as a ballpark.'

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Y'know, I posted the entire charm text before and at least three people have tried this already, but I'm just going to do it again, it might stick this time. Can't resist. Too funny.

A basic success is tantamount to the Solar predicting a natural disaster that has relatively damning effects: flash floods ruin roads, a drought destroys crops, an earthquake disables a vitally important manse, and so on.

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Here we have the basic effect, achievable by rolling just a basic success. The effects occupy roughly the same scope: vital infrastructure is destroyed. Road network goes down, resulting in an inability to move troops, materiel and trade goods. Possible starvation depending on how much your city requires imported food via overland routes. Crops fail, resulting in mass starvation. A manse goes down, causing an unspecified form of disaster that should, by inference, be one of similar severity to the destruction of your road network or the loss of your harvest.

At this level, sure, you can probably deal with it if you're a fellow Solar Exalt, I'm entirely happy to say. The result of the attack is severe, but recoverable.

Two to four extra successes results in a more devastating cataclysm: a tsunami wipes out a fleet of battleships; a series of earthquakes devastate the infrastructures of several cities and roads; a volcano detonates and wipes a city entirely off the map, etc.

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At two to four extra successes, we have the loss of an entire naval fleet of battleships to a tsunami, the destruction of infrastructure across several cities at once, or a single city being nuked off the map. Anything the GM pulls out at the 2-4 success level must, at least, be as devastating as the above. Several cities severely damaged, a large portion (possibly the whole) of your navy being smashed to toothpicks or a single city completely destroyed.

Here we start to get into raised eyebrows. Heh.

Five or more extra successes equates to the Solar predicting one of the seven great dooms: a star falls and annihilates a region; a behemoth rises from its slumber and plows through a number of predicted cities; an army of the dead spills from its Shadowland during Calibration to wreak havoc, and so on.

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And here we have a star falling and annihilating an entire region, a behemoth rising and wrecking a number of cities, and an army of undead appearing. What kind of army of undead is unspecified, but we can infer that it's at least at the same level as the annihilation of a region by a meteor or the stomping of a number of cities by Godzilla.

Does this passage really read like just a war group of ghosts or a 13-dice wimp of a monster that can't outfight a single Dragon-Blooded to you, or are you simply grasping at straws?

Calm down.

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kekekekeke, u mad bro?

 

[Deations]

Getting out of debt is making real gains, but regardless nope.
I can sit in my crafting hole all fucking year churning out gear for the army my character has an intimacy for without leaving my hole. This also causes all the people I'm gearing up to be grateful because I just made their gear (minor Intimacy of gratefulness).
Look, either of those ensures I gain 1 cxp without roleplaying at all. Yep, totally need to RP to get cxp.

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If you want to outfit them with anything other than fucking spoons you'll need to invest in a major project

If it's not written in or made obvious in the charm's text, adding costs like this falls under Rule 0 (even when they make sense), which as I've pointed out is basically saying "it's not broken because you can fix it".

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Or maybe you can do things like not treat Shyft's post like a stunning revalation

Y'know, I posted the entire charm text before and at least three people have tried this already, but I'm just going to do it again, it might stick this time. Can't resist. Too funny.

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lawl you fucked up the quote

 

[Aaron Peori]

This thread is making me want to like Jon Chung.

I think I just threw up in my mouth a bit.

 

[Jon Chung]

lawl you fucked up the quote

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That's why we have this super handy edit function.

Look, it's fine if you like this effect, but really, trying to argue that it's not a strategic nuke is kinda futile. You're contradicting the actual charm text in an attempt to retroactively prove it's not broken. This is unhealthy. Take a break. Have a beer.

 

[Anondylar]

You know, I seem to remember that Holden once came here. He got yelled at over Celestial Bliss Trick until he rage-quit.

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He also decided to insinuate everyone who disagreed with him were sexual deviants in the vein of rapists.

 

[notanautomaton]

If you want to outfit them with anything other than fucking spoons you'll need to invest in a major project

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Armies need other metal things. Caltrops, horseshoes, nails, handcuffs, bars for prisons, the list goes on.

 

[notanautomaton]

He also decided to insinuate everyone who disagreed with him were sexual deviants in the vein of rapists.

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I forgot that part . Why is it that everyone who works on exalted is so... wonderful? It's this beautiful combination of arrogance, stubbornness, and a tendency to come up with dumb ideas. *cough rapeghosts chough*

 

[Kylar]

Armies need other metal things. Caltrops, horseshoes, nails, handcuffs, bars for prisons, the list goes on.

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47 cakes for the Guild.

(dammit lunars)

 

[notanautomaton]

47 cakes for the Guild.

(dammit lunars)

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Can you imagine how much xp he lost? I feel for the poor guy.

 

[Deations]

And here we have a star falling and annihilating an entire region, a behemoth rising and wrecking a number of cities, and an army of undead appearing. What kind of army of undead is unspecified, but we can infer that it's at least at the same level as the destruction of a region by a meteor or the stomping of a number of cities by Godzilla.

Does this passage really read like just a war group of ghosts or a 13-dice wimp of a monster that can't outfight a single Dragon-Blooded to you, or are you simply grasping at straws?

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I'd have to run the numbers by seeing how much damage the Behemoth does in comparison to armies of dudes. Or I can just type kekekeke, idk.

kekekekeke

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Man I'm starting to think that maybe people dislike you for a lot more than being a badass real-talker or whatever.

He also decided to insinuate everyone who disagreed with him were sexual deviants in the vein of rapists.

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To be fair, the other guy also implied that if a player decides to rape someone, it's the Devs' fault for not working hard enough to prevent it.