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General Exalted Thread

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On Soul Reprisal, its not really an equivalent to the doombot. While they both trigger on death, Soul Reprisal is ridiculously more costly (16m, 1wp, 20xp), it doesn't retgone you from the scene, it doesn't heal you to full (either motes or HLs) and it basically drops your current stats for one of your personas (which are worse then yours!). Also, you can only use it once a story. Its closer to the Doctor's regenerations then a doombot, except unlike to Doctor it also weakens you considerably (though given how confused he often is post regen, that may not be accurate). It could really use some clarification as to what happens to your XP when you shift incarnations, but that's more or less the extent of my complaints about it.

In short, the doombot is ridiculously better mechanically in every way possible. So yes, it is actually broken in system.
 
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CircleTheSkies said:
Thinking more about it, I think I'd houserule it like this (assuming it's not one of the charms being cut). It has to be declared before the deadly moment and the Solar will need to describe a stunt on how they manage to switch with the fake. A stealthy one might be able to pull off "I duck around a pillar and the robot ducks out the other way", for example.
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The thing is, at that point, you might as well make it something like "you can make a unique Artifact N/A robot you can tele-operate and use some of your Charms through", then give it actual rules for mechanical interaction with Awareness Charms, etc... which would itself resolve most of the quibbles people have with the original version.

Kylar said:
On Soul Reprisal, its not really an equivalent to the doombot. While they both trigger on death, Soul Reprisal is ridiculously more costly (16m, 1wp, 20xp), it doesn't retgone you from the scene, it doesn't heal you to full (either motes or HLs) and it basically drops your current stats for one of your personas (which are worse then yours!). Also, you can only use it once a story. Its closer to the Doctor's regenerations then a doombot, except unlike to Doctor it also weakens you considerably (though given how confused he often is post regen, that may not be accurate). It could really use some clarification as to what happens to your XP when you shift incarnations, but that's more or less the extent of my complaints about it.

In short, the doombot is ridiculously better in every way possible.
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Yeah, Soul Reprisal really doesn't bother me at all because (a) you're not getting out of it without any real negative consequences, and (b) if somebody has you at their mercy already they can just stab you to death again, so it doesn't break setting backstory or induce "well REALLY the BBEG wasn't actually there so you didn't kill him, try again next time" syndrome.
 
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I would, personally, at the very least require a commitment of a Legendary Project slot for Dual Magnus Prana to prime the thing. Something that made it other than 'whoops, I suddenly am doombot'.
 
Deations said:
To be clear, I don't really care if HP or Initiative are associated/dissociated, I'm just arguing that you can twist anything into one category or another if you are so inclined. For the most part when people do seem to talk about it, it's all about 'what causes this disocciation feel in me' rather than any objective metric.
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First off, the term "disassociated mechanic" has nothing to do with mechanics that break immersion or somehow disassociate the player from the game (presumably by sending them on a pizza run) so yeah, you don't know what you're talking about.

Second, yeah I got that you think you can twist anything into one category or another, because you don't think words mean things.

If you don't know - or care, apparently - what the distinction between associated and disassociated mechanics actually is, then don't talk about that distinction. Is this not standard procedure for stuff you don't know about? It's what I do, certainly - clam up or read up. Sometimes I even learn more than the soundbites necessary to sound informed.
 
MJ12 Commando said:
Yes, and these are exceptions to the typical way things work in Exalted rules, where things are determined by in-character actions from in-character traits. Are you denying that the general trend of Exalted 3rd edition is that your narrative goals, whatever they are, are worked towards by discrete, in-character processes that you decide to undertake?
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Sure! But I honestly thought that this applies to most rpgs, including FATE.

MJ12 Commando said:
I am distinguishing between process and result based resolution systems here. In Exalted, my actions are all single discrete processes which exist as a thing in the game world. I swing a sword at someone. That is a specific action with specific rules that are not interchangeable with yelling loudly at that person (barring certain forms of magic) that creates specific results. In FATE or Apocalypse World, my action is attempting to create a result in the narrative directly, and then I backfill in the processes of which this result comes into play. So I could Turn Someone On (Monsterhearts) by being really good at swordfighting or by shooting my way through a bunch of aliens to rescue someone. Why not? Stranger things have happened in movies. In Exalted, this is not an action that I can (strictly speaking) do by being very good at swordfighting or by shooting hostage takers to rescue a hostage. In fact, even if I get to do so, this is not something that I declare, but rather something that is broken down into individual, quantized units of time and action. I cannot give someone an Intimacy of Lust by thrusting my Daiklaive at them (I mean this literally, not figuratively). That's the core difference and it's a very important difference.
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I think the Monsterhearts example is interesting, because what the heck is stopping you from reflavoring your actions in Exalted via Stunting, for that matter? Let's say that Bob is falling from a great height, and the GM is telling him to roll Strength+Athletics to not fall. Now Bob can describe his action as him hanging desperately on to another player's coat-tails, screaming 'Oh gods, please don't drop me!' or can describe it as finding a convenient branch hanging off the side, or just describing how you have a deathgrip on the precipice. Similarly, someone trying to seduce someone else would be rolling the same stuff, but they can fluff it in different ways. Someone could dazzle a person with his swordsmanship, or else whip out a bouquet of flowers. I'm assuming you're rolling the same stats to Turn Someone On in Monsterhearts, no matter how it's flavored. You roll Hot, IIRC.

MJ12 Commando said:
It's procedural unfairness. Even ignoring any balance or lack thereof, even assuming Dual Magnus Prana is 100% totally balanced with other 'avoid death' charms that people like more, procedural unfairness is huge. It comes up a lot in real life. Even if the result is totally fair, something that lets you just declare "that was always my body double" sticks in people's craw. I suspect that if Dual Magnus Prana was replaced with Second Coming Prana or some equivalent in Resistance, which let you get back up seven days after your death, creating an almost identical result, there would be much less of an outcry. Because it doesn't have the same procedural unfairness of "this guy gets to say I'm an incompetent rube who stabbed his body double! Fuck that guy."
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As opposed to, what, this guy wasn't bright enough to just burn your body? Either way the other guy gets cheated. You're giving me the argument that with two identical effects, one is unacceptable because of the flavor behind it, and I just can't buy that.

EarthScorpion said:
Try actually grounding your argument in evidence next time, dear boy.
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oh my god, you're just fucking incredible

i can never get pissed when Holden acts like a condescending tool ever again this is what you did to me just now
 
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You know what? I'm sorry. This entire argument can be summed up as tl;dr, Deations doesn't like GNS theory.

I'd much rather talk about anything else.
 
Deations said:
You know what? I'm sorry. This entire argument can be summed up as tl;dr, Deations doesn't like GNS theory.

I'd much rather talk about anything else.
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@Deations calm down and, if you want to continue this discussion, actually read what they are saying. Just because they started with some similar language to GNS theory at the beginning doesn't mean what they are trying to say has anything to do with the theory itself.

I'll be the first to admit that GNS theory is actively bad (but the exalted thread isn't the place for that discussion).

However, that doesn't mean every game should be like FATE or not like FATE or whatever.

Don't let the use of the word simulationism make it impossible for you to take part in an argument.
 
...hey, does anyone remember that Adjoran Charm that allowed you to make an Mortal version of yourself, with the caveat that it was 1) not aware of its true nature and 2) could explicitly Exalt?

Because I'm actually interested in that idea...
 
I could swear there's an upgrade to that Charm that created a mortal who wasn't aware of their true nature. Maybe it's a homebrew somewhere.
 
Random Entity said:
Don't Adorjan's SGS-clones come with all mortal traits at 5?
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SGS clones begin play with the traits of their progenitor, minus any supernatural abilities; this means that in most cases they will have a lot of Abilities and Attributes at 5, Willpower 10, and likely some +3 specialty, making them as good as mortals can possibly get - but it's not "all traits at 5."
 
…I'm honestly not sure. I was going to go for a simulacrum that was created as a child, which isn't technically possible with those two Charms anyway.

Heck, this would be a 3e character anyway, so the Charms are more an inspiration than a literal guide. My thinking is that the character was created with a backstory of 'orphan' and taken in by someone- I'm not exactly sure who, but if she grew up as a princess, she'd wonder if that was deliberate on the part of Adorjan. :3

Also, she's likely to be a redhead. I blame Aleph for making me associate Adorjan with red hair. :p
 
Omicron said:
SGS clones begin play with the traits of their progenitor, minus any supernatural abilities; this means that in most cases they will have a lot of Abilities and Attributes at 5, Willpower 10, and likely some +3 specialty, making them as good as mortals can possibly get - but it's not "all traits at 5."
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That's true for GSP/akuma clones, but Adorjan's personal clones are rather more advanced.
 
Random Entity said:
That's true for GSP/akuma clones, but Adorjan's personal clones are rather more advanced.
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The issue is that the clones are created with the creator's non-magical traits.

Thanks to (Yozi) Glory Incarnate, Adorjan has 0 in all Attributes and Abilities, save when acting in accordance with her Excellency and then has a dice pool of 20, before actively spending Essence via her Excellency.

Although, given the Charm, Adorjan herself likely having expansions, and the fact that this is for a character's backstory/plot hooks, this can probably be handwaved away as Adorjan granting the Crimson Orphan Attributes and Abilities appropriate to their false life.
 
Shattered Gale Shintai actually does lay out what happens when Adorjan makes a clone, but I suspect you're right.

I'm not entirely sure why Adorjan would create the simulacrum in the first place, though I have some vague ideas. Also, while I'm kinda leaning towards 'adopted into a royal family', if someone else has a better idea, feel free to suggest it.
 
Maybe Adorjan has some expansion to the charm that let her place the values better? That is to say, in a way so that the clone has capabilities more like a normal mortal.
 
Nekraa said:
Maybe Adorjan has some expansion to the charm that let her place the values better? That is to say, in a way so that the clone has capabilities more like a normal mortal.
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Yeah, that seems logical enough, given that Crimson Orphan Abandonment is specifically called as being good for inserting a deep cover spy.

I think I will go for 'Adopted Princess of a Royal Family', make her the tomboy princess who loves to run. ;)

I'm still not sure why Adorjan would make her in the first place, though.
 
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