Aw man. Just that.... with all the inspirations coming from the bible, I thought that it would be neat to be able to do things like make rivers where you can bathe to cure your leprosy, or enchant your shadow to heal those it touches.
Those can be a thing, yes. Those are Sorcerous Workings. They'll still be worse than Medicine Charms, mind.
 
I mean, you should totally be able to replicate the effects of some Charms with Sorcery.

They'll never be as fast, or as mote-efficient, but in terms of quality of result (assuming that result quality isn't "speed" or "efficiency" itself) there's no particular reason it shouldn't be a competitor.
 
Urm... yes? Ok? I mean, I don't quite see the problem.

Hmm.....

Small pool, which cures a particular disease? Terrestrial 3? Or Celestial 1?
Celestial+. Terrestrial doesn't do outright miracles, that's explicitly Celestial. Do you have the Ex3 core? If so, just...just check the Sorcery section before asking? The answer to this question is literally right in the summary of Celestial Workings.

Workings of the Celestial
Circle are miracles of outright supernatural power, either rewriting the laws of the natural world on a relatively large scale or instilling supernatural power into the mundane world.
Making a spring that cures some illness is "instilling supernatural power into the mundane world."

I mean, you should totally be able to replicate the effects of some Charms with Sorcery.

They'll never be as fast, or as mote-efficient, but in terms of quality of result (assuming that result quality isn't "speed" or "efficiency" itself) there's no particular reason it shouldn't be a competitor.
Sorcery should never let you be a better fighter than a dedicated meleeist, nor a better curer of illness than a Medicine person, because if Sorcery can do that and all the other stuff Sorcery can do, the guy who actually invests in Medicine is a sucker.
 
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Urm... yes? Ok? I mean, I don't quite see the problem.

Hmm.....

Small pool, which cures a particular disease? Terrestrial 3? Or Celestial 1?
Sorcererous Workings to heal someone won't heal them by making them get better. They'll heal them by doing something weird and obviously supernatural that makes their crippling injury not be crippling anymore. A Celestial sorcerer who isn't doing some very high finesse rolls is not going to get a normal human arm out of his healing working, instead what will come out is something obviously weird even if it does function just as well as an arm. They'll get an animal-limb like a composite demons or some equally weird shit.

 
Sorcererous Workings to heal someone won't heal them by making them get better. They'll heal them by doing something weird and obviously supernatural that makes their crippling injury not be crippling anymore. A Celestial sorcerer who isn't doing some very high finesse rolls is not going to get a normal human arm out of his healing working, instead what will come out is something obviously weird even if it does function just as well as an arm. They'll get an animal-limb like a composite demons or some equally weird shit.

Well, I mean, a spring that helps cure sickness and makes sure wounds heal without infection is fine. It won't regrow arms or stop you bleeding to death, and you can't move the population of a plague-stricken nation to it, but it's still great to have around.
 
Sorcery should never let you be a better fighter than a dedicated meleeist, nor a better curer of illness than a Medicine person, because if Sorcery can do that and all the other stuff Sorcery can do, the guy who actually invests in Medicine is a sucker.
No, because the guy who invests in Medicine can do it consistently, with an easily-passed check and maybe a couple of hours at most, with probably an option to cut that down with the usual Solar bullshit to a touch and a glance.

A Sorcerer who wants to heal has to spend an Anchor, spend Resources, and if it's a Working and not a simple Spell he has to spend days designing the thing every time. Even if it's only a spell, he's paying easily three, five times as many motes as the actual doctor is, plus Willpower, leaving him entirely exhausted after a single casting -- and sure, maybe at higher Circles the spell can be allowed to scale a little, but there I will just say "not as well as Medicine Charms can", barring stuff like "making a permanent healing spring" that can be broken or stolen or whatever.

The power of a Sorcerer, IMO, is that they can do just about literally anything - but they have to spend much, much more on it than someone who's just channeling their Exaltation. Jack of all trades, master of none, and all that.
 
No, because the guy who invests in Medicine can do it consistently, with an easily-passed check and maybe a couple of hours at most, with probably an option to cut that down with the usual Solar bullshit to a touch and a glance.

A Sorcerer who wants to heal has to spend an Anchor, spend Resources, and if it's a Working and not a simple Spell he has to spend days designing the thing every time. Even if it's only a spell, he's paying easily three, five times as many motes as the actual doctor is, plus Willpower, leaving him entirely exhausted after a single casting -- and sure, maybe at higher Circles the spell can be allowed to scale a little, but there I will just say "not as well as Medicine Charms can", barring stuff like "making a permanent healing spring" that can be broken or stolen or whatever.

The power of a Sorcerer, IMO, is that they can do just about literally anything - but they have to spend much, much more on it than someone who's just channeling their Exaltation. Jack of all trades, master of none, and all that.
You know something?

I think we should all clarify which kind of sorcery we're using. Like, which homebrew and which edition.
 
No, because the guy who invests in Medicine can do it consistently, with an easily-passed check and maybe a couple of hours at most, with probably an option to cut that down with the usual Solar bullshit to a touch and a glance.

A Sorcerer who wants to heal has to spend an Anchor, spend Resources, and if it's a Working and not a simple Spell he has to spend days designing the thing every time. Even if it's only a spell, he's paying easily three, five times as many motes as the actual doctor is, plus Willpower, leaving him entirely exhausted after a single casting -- and sure, maybe at higher Circles the spell can be allowed to scale a little, but there I will just say "not as well as Medicine Charms can", barring stuff like "making a permanent healing spring" that can be broken or stolen or whatever.

The power of a Sorcerer, IMO, is that they can do just about literally anything - but they have to spend much, much more on it than someone who's just channeling their Exaltation. Jack of all trades, master of none, and all that.
I have no idea what you are talking about with Anchors and Resources. Motes on healing spells are meaningless unless you're doing it in combat time, and combat time healing is nonsense already, definitely not good for a Terrestrial spell, even in Ex2. If it can do out of combat healing, you just spam it because lol hourly regen. And in Ex3 spells do not require your own motes at all.
 
I have no idea what you are talking about with Anchors and Resources. Motes on healing spells are meaningless unless you're doing it in combat time, and combat time healing is nonsense already, definitely not good for a Terrestrial spell, even in Ex2. If it can do out of combat healing, you just spam it because lol hourly regen. And in Ex3 spells do not require your own motes at all.
He's talking about a homebrewed sorcery system by Earthscorpion.
 
There's definitely room for mimic-ing non-Sorcerous capabilities with sorcerous means, such as Food from the Aerial Table for food gathering or Incantation of Effective Restoration for repair. However, it will be limited in scope and weird. There's existing precedent for Sorcery to give the the tools to do something, if not necessarily doing it for you.

In terms of existing spells there's Purifying Flames, which is less a medicine check and more setting everything that is making you sick on fire. I'm not sure how that would translate to 3rd edition.

I can see conceptual space for a spell that, instead of acting as treatment or replacing the need for medical skill, instead acts as a replacement for the tools and drugs needed to practice medicine. I think it would be something like a sorcerous version of the Satchel of Resplendent Healing or Bracers of Universal Crafting.

Maybe a sort of cousin to Wood Dragon's Claw? Wood Dragon's Kiss? It lasts until sunset and can only be cast during the day, because it's drawing on the healing nature of plants, and cost 20 sm because it lasts a similar amount of time as Invulnerable Skin of Bronze.

Maybe 1 non-charm success to ensure to avoid botches and a magical tool bonus of Medicine/2 dice? If it's calling on Sextes Jyles then anyone you heal with it takes on permanent plant-y markings? That's a little bit like existing Metagaos homebrew but it's a good effect.

Wood Dragon's Kiss
Cost: 20sm
Keywords: None
Duration: Until dismissed or until the sun sets
Casting Restriction: Must be cast in sunlight

The sorceror calls upon the Dragon of Wood for his healing essence. For the duration of the spell her hands become gnarled roots that act as supernaturally effective medical tools. She adds 1 non-charm success and half her Medicine rating in dice to medicine rolls.

The touch of the Wood Dragon irrevocably changes her patients. Healed flesh becomes wood and returned breath takes on the sound of wind through tree branches.

A sorceror who knows Wood Dragon's Kiss as a control spell takes on some suble or un-subtle aspect of plant life, whether that is skin the colour of wood or flowers growing in her hair. She may derive nutrition from sunlight as if she were a plant.
 
If you want to be a sorcerer that can cure disease, you're gonna learn a spell like this

Breath of the Blessed Caladrius
Cost: 12sm, 1hl, 1wp
Keywords: None
Duration: Instant

The caladrius takes curses and diseases upon itself, and carries them up to the sun to be burned away. The sorcerer takes a deep breath, and exhales a gout of sunfire that is picked up and carried on the wind out to long range. Any creature in that range may choose to accept the blessing of the caladrius and scour the impurities from their body, by accepting lethal damage levels equal to the Essence minimum of the effect (or one level, if it has none).

Creatures of darkness cannot benefit from this blessing, and instead are exposed to a hazard equivalent to a bonfire, lasting a single round (Exalted, p. 232). If this is the sorcerer's control spell, the hazard instead lasts for (Essence + 1) rounds.

This spell will cure a lot of people of a disease, at the cost of lethal damage - which without medicine charms is a pain and a half for mortals to heal.
 
If you want to be a sorcerer that can cure disease, you're gonna learn a spell like this



This spell will cure a lot of people of a disease, at the cost of lethal damage - which without medicine charms is a pain and a half for mortals to heal.
well I mean, I'd allow it? But definitely not as a Terrestrial spell. "Curing thousands of people at once" is more like really high Celestial, even with that hefty cost (also it's not actually hefty, it's a mild burn in your -0 that heals in like three days). And that's what "long range" allows, long range can fit multiple size 5 battlegroups.
 
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If you want to be a sorcerer that can cure disease, you're gonna learn a spell like this



This spell will cure a lot of people of a disease, at the cost of lethal damage - which without medicine charms is a pain and a half for mortals to heal.

This seems familiar. Was it one of the spells from the previewed Dragon-blooded book? I've seen discussions about the content on Onyx Path forums but didn't back the Kickstarter myself.
 
Celestial+. Terrestrial doesn't do outright miracles, that's explicitly Celestial. Do you have the Ex3 core? If so, just...just check the Sorcery section before asking? The answer to this question is literally right in the summary of Celestial Workings.
In 3E, I can use Terrestrial Sorcery to steal the name of one of the stars in the Dome of the Heavens, chuck it over to someone I don't like, and then watch them get a flying armbar from an enraged celestial object as the star dives down to retrieve its stolen property.

That's pretty damn miraculous, and the idea of Sorcery being a big fucking deal for anyone who isn't an Exalt already is one of the big ways you set up a space for there to be mortals with access to magical powers, so you can have hunting lodges where the members tattoo themselves with the blood of their greatest kills in order to steal some of their strength or Southern fire-cults whose members can vomit gouts of flame at people because they've charred runes into their throats using an ember from the Deep South where the Pole of Fire holds dominion - to put it simply, mortals being able to take advantage of the fact that they live in a fantasy setting rather than having all the magic gated off for exclusive use by spirits, Exalts, and Sorcerers.

Now, I've heard some rather distressing things about what 3E has done to thaumaturgy, but I'm hoping they at least retained some element of this instead of making Terrestrial Sorcery into a minimum requirement for non-Exalts to have relevance.


EDIT: I noticed I left in a comment on Sorcery and Medicine, and have removed it given that you've provided your stance on the matter since that post. Apologies.
 
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Now, I've heard some rather distressing things about what 3E has done to thaumaturgy, but I'm hoping they at least retained some element of this instead of making Terrestrial Sorcery into a minimum requirement for non-Exalts to have relevance.
Thaumaturgy, in 3e, is being born with the ability to learn random little magical tricks, as well as the knowledge of one such trick. Examples from the corebook include reading tea leaves, knowing how to arrange a firepit just so to light a fire without flint or tinder that rain or similar won't put out, the ability to conduct an exorcism or the ability to break a piece of bread into two new loaves (very subtle reference there, that last one).

Honestly, I like the idea as a standalone thing - some people just have these weird things they can do. That's interesting. However, what I don't like is the fact that it replaces systematic study of the magical weirdness of Creation, which was a really cool thing. My personal response to the thing has been to keep the 3e Thaumaturgy as a thing, and have most of the stuff that 2e Thaumaturgy could do (with a few exceptions, such as weather-working, which you do by asking the gods very nicely) be simple applications of Craft (for talismans, potions and such) and Occult, albeit requiring specific sources (e.g. demonomicons, books of alchemy etc) and often exotic ingredients. For example, anyone can simply know that ghosts can't cross lines of salt or germinated grain, and thus can lay a 'ward against ghosts'. Whether they'll do it right or not is another matter entirely, and the more involved procedures do require substantial background knowledge (i.e. 3+ dots in Occult/Craft/Lore/whatever), but it's possible.

Plus, this system opens up the possibility of a true savant deciphering parts or the whole of how a thaumaturge's 'tricks' work, allowing them to systemize it properly, though the opaqueness of any given mini-miracle and the difficulty/stuff required for a non-thaumaturge to use it would depend on Storyteller fiat. Second Bread, for instance, would probably have to have some esoteric components for a non-thaumaturge to do it, be incredibly rare or else be really, really hard to figure out, because economics. It'd probably be more common for a savant to work out bits and pieces, and fit those bits and pieces together with others to create entirely new, only vaguely related procedures. For instance, the 'tea leaf reading' thaumaturgy, along with a number of similar prophetic rituals, might be the basis of the astrology used in that one Southern city whose name escapes me.
 
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Thaumaturgy, in 3e, is being born with the ability to learn random little magical tricks, as well as the knowledge of one such trick. Examples from the corebook include reading tea leaves, knowing how to arrange a firepit just so to light a fire without flint or tinder that rain or similar won't put out, the ability to conduct an exorcism or the ability to break a piece of bread into two new loaves (very subtle refernce there, that last one).

Honestly, I like the idea as a standalone thing - some people just have these weird things they can do. That's interesting. However, what I don't like is the fact that it replaces systematic study of the magical weirdness of Creation, which was a really cool thing. My personal response to the thing has been to keep the 3e Thaumaturgy as a thing, and have most of the stuff that 2e Thaumaturgy could do (with a few exceptions, such as weather-working, which you do by asking the gods very nicely) be simple applications of Craft (for talismans, potions and such) and Occult, albeit requiring specific sources (e.g. demonomicons, books of alchemy etc) and often exotic ingredients. For example, anyone can simply know that ghosts can't cross lines of salt or germinated grain, and thus can lay a 'ward against ghosts'. Whether they'll do it right or not is another matter entirely, and the more involved procedures do require substantial background knowledge (i.e. 3+ dots in Occult/Craft/Lore/whatever), but it's possible.

Plus, this system opens up the possibility of a true savant deciphering parts or the whole of how a thaumaturge's 'tricks' work, allowing them to systemize it properly, though the opaqueness of any given mini-miracle and the difficulty/stuff required for a non-thaumaturge to use it would depend on Storyteller fiat. Second Bread, for instance, would probably have to have some esoteric components for a non-thaumaturge to do it, be incredibly rare or else be really, really hard to figure out, because economics. It'd probably be more common for a savant to work out bits and pieces, and fit those bits and pieces together with others to create entirely new, only vaguely related procedures.
I like this
 
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