Just so we can acknowledge it @Accelerator - you are not in the best position with most of us in these threads, due to how you demonstrate a great deal of behaviors we just can't just accept anymore. I'm fine with helping you as long as you match my good faith with your own.

Now as you say, Disguise of the New Face exists, and it makes sense that there ought be a Sorcerous Blessing of Charisma (in general, not the Trait), but Kaiya is correct in that a spell that just grants Dots is mechanically boring. This sort of falls under the same Grabowski caveat of 'Sorcerous combat'. That is to say, if you want to be good at Fighting, get good at Fighting- sorcerers have to fight in a specific way if they don't branch out into Regular Fitan Arts like Everyone Else. (summoning body guards, turning yourself into a bronze statue, etc).

So there's definitely thematic ground for a spell that makes you or your target more visually appealing- but this is probably better modeled with things like Illusion or Emotion Effects (not like holograms or glamours, maybe, but it's viable). Like, speaking for myself, I could totally see a Vain Sorcerer developing a spell like this to either transmute themselve into a personal idealized form, or that of their servants.

Like Disguise of the New Face, the root here is that you want to start with a basic mechanic like Disguise rules (as per 2e), that among other things gives you some baselines for how to raise Appearance and what it costs (time, and you can't raise it more than 1). Obviously this is Sorcery so you can do wilder things- and there is a time and place for adding dots or boosting traits, you just gotta do it Carefully.

Anyway- what you're really going for is something that's part cosmetic transformation, which isn't necessarily appearance dots, and an 'awe' effect. So my suggestion is that the spell does correct obvious cosmetic flaws as part of it's ritual- i wuoldn't say it burns the target to ash though at a fluff level. I'd almost argue that it's a really powerful Penalty Negator- so the blessed target always looks fresh, composed, no matter if they've been up all night or strung out on stimulants and hard work.

If it does raise Appearance, it should do so at a temporary level and never past App 4. By temporary I meant like 'weeks or months'.

The 'Awe' effect you want can be done with an Emotion Effect attached to the blessed target, or Illusion- depending on what keyword you prefer, with a fairly unobtrusive WP cost to resist 1-2 definitely. Functionally this means that as long as the 'Awe' effect is in play, the blessed character has something like +1-3 dice to add to their actions. You want to ritualize this more, so make it clear that the benefit is only if the character makes an obvious appeal or invocation of the Sorcerer's authority or the authority they're working for. Have them require a seal, badge of office or regalia to 'prove' they're speaking with authority.

Those are all the ideas I have at the moment, but there is room to develop this.
 
So there's definitely thematic ground for a spell that makes you or your target more visually appealing- but this is probably better modeled with things like Illusion or Emotion Effects (not like holograms or glamours, maybe, but it's viable). Like, speaking for myself, I could totally see a Vain Sorcerer developing a spell like this to either transmute themselve into a personal idealized form, or that of their servants.

Look, just man up and do it the proper way.

If you're not sacrificing people to steal their youth and bathing in their blood to supercharge your own vitality so you seem more alive and vivacious than everyone else in the room, then can you really be said to be a sorcerer at all?
 
Look, just man up and do it the proper way.

If you're not sacrificing people to steal their youth and bathing in their blood to supercharge your own vitality so you seem more alive and vivacious than everyone else in the room, then can you really be said to be a sorcerer at all?
Personally, I would put that under necromancy.....

Just so we can acknowledge it @Accelerator - you are not in the best position with most of us in these threads, due to how you demonstrate a great deal of behaviors we just can't just accept anymore. I'm fine with helping you as long as you match my good faith with your own.

Now as you say, Disguise of the New Face exists, and it makes sense that there ought be a Sorcerous Blessing of Charisma (in general, not the Trait), but Kaiya is correct in that a spell that just grants Dots is mechanically boring. This sort of falls under the same Grabowski caveat of 'Sorcerous combat'. That is to say, if you want to be good at Fighting, get good at Fighting- sorcerers have to fight in a specific way if they don't branch out into Regular Fitan Arts like Everyone Else. (summoning body guards, turning yourself into a bronze statue, etc).

So there's definitely thematic ground for a spell that makes you or your target more visually appealing- but this is probably better modeled with things like Illusion or Emotion Effects (not like holograms or glamours, maybe, but it's viable). Like, speaking for myself, I could totally see a Vain Sorcerer developing a spell like this to either transmute themselve into a personal idealized form, or that of their servants.

Like Disguise of the New Face, the root here is that you want to start with a basic mechanic like Disguise rules (as per 2e), that among other things gives you some baselines for how to raise Appearance and what it costs (time, and you can't raise it more than 1). Obviously this is Sorcery so you can do wilder things- and there is a time and place for adding dots or boosting traits, you just gotta do it Carefully.

Anyway- what you're really going for is something that's part cosmetic transformation, which isn't necessarily appearance dots, and an 'awe' effect. So my suggestion is that the spell does correct obvious cosmetic flaws as part of it's ritual- i wuoldn't say it burns the target to ash though at a fluff level. I'd almost argue that it's a really powerful Penalty Negator- so the blessed target always looks fresh, composed, no matter if they've been up all night or strung out on stimulants and hard work.

If it does raise Appearance, it should do so at a temporary level and never past App 4. By temporary I meant like 'weeks or months'.

The 'Awe' effect you want can be done with an Emotion Effect attached to the blessed target, or Illusion- depending on what keyword you prefer, with a fairly unobtrusive WP cost to resist 1-2 definitely. Functionally this means that as long as the 'Awe' effect is in play, the blessed character has something like +1-3 dice to add to their actions. You want to ritualize this more, so make it clear that the benefit is only if the character makes an obvious appeal or invocation of the Sorcerer's authority or the authority they're working for. Have them require a seal, badge of office or regalia to 'prove' they're speaking with authority.

Those are all the ideas I have at the moment, but there is room to develop this.
Ok.... Let's try this again.

The sorcerer places his hands on the target's head, and speaks an intonation of authority. A seal appears in his hand, with the inscription being his anima, name, or epithet. Anything.

The target obtains a penalty negator for appearance, and gets no penalty from being dirty, unkempt, looking raggard, or strung out.

As soon as the target shows the seal to a someone, and speaks of her position as the Sorcerer's speaker, roll.... something. I'm not sure. And then whoever is shown the seal obtains a intimacy of awe and respect towards the target. This can be the palace guard, the village council, or the king's court.

The spell also reinforces the target's attempts to act in her capacity as the sorcerer's herald. She obtains a 2 extra dice bonus in her attempts to argue in favor of the sorcerer's goals, enforcing his authority and good name, and in resisting attempts to turn her against the sorcerer.

Is this alright, @Shyft ? Or is this just too many powers?
 
Personally, I would put that under necromancy.....


Ok.... Let's try this again.

The sorcerer places his hands on the target's head, and speaks an intonation of authority. A seal appears in his hand, with the inscription being his anima, name, or epithet. Anything.

The target obtains a penalty negator for appearance, and gets no penalty from being dirty, unkempt, looking raggard, or strung out.

As soon as the target shows the seal to a someone, and speaks of her position as the Sorcerer's speaker, roll.... something. I'm not sure. And then whoever is shown the seal obtains a intimacy of awe and respect towards the target. This can be the palace guard, the village council, or the king's court.

The spell also reinforces the target's attempts to act in her capacity as the sorcerer's herald. She obtains a 2 extra dice bonus in her attempts to argue in favor of the sorcerer's goals, enforcing his authority and good name, and in resisting attempts to turn her against the sorcerer.

Is this alright, @Shyft ? Or is this just too many powers?

Okay the first problem is, you're essentially quoting me as if I wrote you Mechanical Text- when what we want you to do is look at the book and go "Okay, such and such Charm uses this phrase for negating penalties, let's see if I can adapt that into this.' So your first step is to open the book, look for penalty negators, and examine how they use the words to describe 'this negates penalties'.

The second problem is that while yes, you could say the spell creates a badge of authority, I was more intending that you have to have that authority already. Like you have to ask the king for his scepter or a document stamped with his seal to in turn entrust to a dignitary or the Sorcerer. This is a deliberate part of the challenge of using the spell that you have to have some kind of backer (not necessarily Backing).

The spell itself doesn't necessarily need a roll either- you only want to include a roll as a mechanical thing if you either want to scale how effective the action is, or make it possible to fail and have meaningful dramatic consequences for doing so. Most 'failed rolls' only have a consequence of 'I spent motes and time'. In the former case, it's the whole 'The rest of this Spell works better with more Threshold Successes'.

Now, here's where 'die adders' get boring- you only give the +2 dice when the subject is arguing on the Sorcerer's Behalf. That's... a very banal description. You want to approach it more like 'The speaker's voice crackles like thunder or has the sweetest lilting quality of birdsong'. You want to make it sound magical, first and foremost, and then derive the kind of bonus out of that thematic space. Part of the point of Sorcery is that even at the more subtle level, your special effects budget is much higher. So you can do things like have the speaker's voice resonate with crystal or metal so the glass windows hum at their speech or the cutlery and flatwear shiver as she speaks.

Sigh. I suppose games should probably support people if they want to be wilfully and deliberately wrong.

But just remember; WWEBD?

What Would Elizabeth Bathory Do.
 
Urgh.... Urhg...

You know what? Nevermind. Sorry, guys. I think I'll just take a break from the thread. Rethink stuff.
 
So, I know that Unnatural Mental Influence inflicts a point of Limit if it's resisted, but what other effects does being unnatural have? I've looked though the 2E corebook and I can't seem to find anything. Maybe I'm juts missing it.
 
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So, I know that Unnatural Mental Influence inflicts a point of Limit if it's resisted, but what other effects does being unnatural have? I've looked though the 2E corebook and I can't seem to find anything. Maybe I'm juts missing it.

Basically the 'Unnatural' keyword is to describe that the effect is Magical, and the main things UMI does other than NMI is this:
  1. It has no cap on repeat applications - you can use the same UMI charm with the same argument as many times as you can pay for it, and the defender will have to spend the same WP cost every time to resist. This is in contrast to the NMI rule of '2wp before you have to change arguments' rule.
  2. UMI is fast. Implicitly so- the kind of changes to personality that UMI can accomplish normally take 2-5 scenes of effort, or more if the defending character has time to either shore up their own intimacies or have others do it for them. (Also implicitly the game assumes this happens a lot more often than the text actually says.)
  3. Lastly, UMI has the Obvious Keyword as part of it's definition, which means that anyone who perceives it is going to recognize it as 'magical mental influence'. This is partially where MDV fist comes from, but i should reinforce something I personally believe about UMI.
Creation does not have a 'sanctity of mind' culture like we do sitting behind our computers. 'Sanctity of Mind' is a general belief held in the western world based on our highly individualistic lifestyles and cultures. We don't like the idea of being controlled- our media and stories tell us we don't like to be controlled, and this reinforces up to this day that in the general populace, overt manipulation or domination of one's mind and beliefs is seen as unwelcome or even evil.

The reality though is that mental manipulation happens all the time and we don't notice it, deliberately or otherwise. Political speeches, film and TV, advertisement, are all effectively forms of Unnatural Mental Influence due to how big and polished they are.

So what a lot of people have to remember is that Joe Mortal doesn't have a built-in intimacy of 'I like my brain unfuckedwith, thank you very much'. He has 'I love my wife my farm, my' etc intimacies, and a random god or Solar going 'BEHOLD MY GLORY PEON' is not going to get the mortal's rage up. Nor a Dynast's, because their culture has UMI baked in at the base.

The point of UMI being Obvious is largely so the ST can communicate to players 'you have someone using magic on you, do you resist wtih WP?' Because the point of spending WP isn't to say 'Fuck you!', it's to say 'you convinced me, but I'm going to keep going my way because I can/want to.'
 
Basically the 'Unnatural' keyword is to describe that the effect is Magical, and the main things UMI does other than NMI is this:
  1. It has no cap on repeat applications - you can use the same UMI charm with the same argument as many times as you can pay for it, and the defender will have to spend the same WP cost every time to resist. This is in contrast to the NMI rule of '2wp before you have to change arguments' rule.
  2. UMI is fast. Implicitly so- the kind of changes to personality that UMI can accomplish normally take 2-5 scenes of effort, or more if the defending character has time to either shore up their own intimacies or have others do it for them. (Also implicitly the game assumes this happens a lot more often than the text actually says.)
  3. Lastly, UMI has the Obvious Keyword as part of it's definition, which means that anyone who perceives it is going to recognize it as 'magical mental influence'. This is partially where MDV fist comes from, but i should reinforce something I personally believe about UMI.
Creation does not have a 'sanctity of mind' culture like we do sitting behind our computers. 'Sanctity of Mind' is a general belief held in the western world based on our highly individualistic lifestyles and cultures. We don't like the idea of being controlled- our media and stories tell us we don't like to be controlled, and this reinforces up to this day that in the general populace, overt manipulation or domination of one's mind and beliefs is seen as unwelcome or even evil.

The reality though is that mental manipulation happens all the time and we don't notice it, deliberately or otherwise. Political speeches, film and TV, advertisement, are all effectively forms of Unnatural Mental Influence due to how big and polished they are.

So what a lot of people have to remember is that Joe Mortal doesn't have a built-in intimacy of 'I like my brain unfuckedwith, thank you very much'. He has 'I love my wife my farm, my' etc intimacies, and a random god or Solar going 'BEHOLD MY GLORY PEON' is not going to get the mortal's rage up. Nor a Dynast's, because their culture has UMI baked in at the base.

The point of UMI being Obvious is largely so the ST can communicate to players 'you have someone using magic on you, do you resist wtih WP?' Because the point of spending WP isn't to say 'Fuck you!', it's to say 'you convinced me, but I'm going to keep going my way because I can/want to.'
OK, that helps a great deal. Thanks very much for the clarification, and for going above and beyond with the cultural differences. I asked the question because I was looking at EarthScorpion's Oramus' Maddening Astral Piping and the fact that it makes musical social attacks UMI (as well as madness-inducing) and I wanted to know exactly what that meant.
 
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OK, that helps a great deal. Thanks very much for the clarification, and for going above and beyond with the cultural differences. I asked the question because I was looking at EarthScorpion's Oramus' Maddening Astral Piping and the fact that it makes musical social attacks UMI (as well as madness-inducing) and I wanted to know exactly what that meant.

you're welcome, There's a lot of... implicit stuff with UMI that gets lost in the shuffle, and higher level strategy. Using it incautiously can make enemies, but it's also supposed to be able to turn enemies into friends. 'Fuck you!' the defense is not meant to be a default assumption- you are supposed to be able to use UMI on the foe abyssal to get them to Stop Fighting You, for example. But, keeping hold on that abyssal with Just UMI is not sustainable. You gotta use the grace period to instill longer lasting natural beliefs.
 
OK, that helps a great deal. Thanks very much for the clarification, and for going above and beyond with the cultural differences. I asked the question because I was looking at EarthScorpion's Oramus' Maddening Astral Piping and the fact that it makes musical social attacks UMI (as well as madness-inducing) and I wanted to know exactly what that meant.

When stripped down to its core, it means people can't shut it out. If it was normal music, they could just spend WP and be immune for the rest of the scene. But UMI doesn't have that trait. As long as you can keep on beating their UMI, you can social-fu them.

As you can guess, that's a very strong incentive for Oramus to frame all his social attacks as music. Because as I built him, Oramus is massively specced into using Performance for music and thus it's a strong encouragement to keep on blending your social attacks into music - whether by layering Emotions on people by using sad music, or drumming up a crowd to be ready for violence by making them listen to your martial music. And that's before you bring in the lyrics, which let you make oddly-catchy songs about how the satrap engages in illicit relationships with goats.
 
Lastly, UMI has the Obvious Keyword as part of it's definition, which means that anyone who perceives it is going to recognize it as 'magical mental influence'. This is partially where MDV fist comes from, but i should reinforce something I personally believe about UMI.
'Fuck you!' the defense is not meant to be a default assumption- you are supposed to be able to use UMI on the foe abyssal to get them to Stop Fighting You, for example.
An Exalt may not attack you specifically for using UMI on them.
But you are using a Charm on them that is lowering their WP, which they need to use several of their own Charms, including Perfect Defenses.
I could easily see an Exalt attacking someone for using UMI on them under the rationalization this this person is actively aiding anyone that wants to kill them.
...Especially since I have seen people talk about spamming UMI for the explicit purpose of draining an enemy Exalt's WP and removing their ability to use Perfects.
 
An Exalt may not attack you specifically for using UMI on them.
But you are using a Charm on them that is lowering their WP, which they need to use several of their own Charms, including Perfect Defenses.
I could easily see an Exalt attacking someone for using UMI on them under the rationalization this this person is actively aiding anyone that wants to kill them.
...Especially since I have seen people talk about spamming UMI for the explicit purpose of draining an enemy Exalt's WP and removing their ability to use Perfects.
This is treating IC OOC resources as a thing to track in a way that any reasonable ST should smack you for metagaming.
 
A character should be able to eyeball their own capability to defend themselves.
Yes, but not to the extent you are talking about. You're taking systemic flaws and turning them into this IC thing. It's a conversation happening OOC, not how the character actually reacts, because Exalted 2e as a system is broken in really stupid ways, and if you let the world itself reflect that too much the whole thing becomes utterly miserable to play.
 
An Exalt may not attack you specifically for using UMI on them.
But you are using a Charm on them that is lowering their WP, which they need to use several of their own Charms, including Perfect Defenses.
I could easily see an Exalt attacking someone for using UMI on them under the rationalization this this person is actively aiding anyone that wants to kill them.
...Especially since I have seen people talk about spamming UMI for the explicit purpose of draining an enemy Exalt's WP and removing their ability to use Perfects.

This is treating IC OOC resources as a thing to track in a way that any reasonable ST should smack you for metagaming.

A character should be able to eyeball their own capability to defend themselves.

This is fundamentally the rationale behind the idea of MDV fist, and it's really best described as a deleterious state or garbage output.

Like, setting aside what the mechanics do, which we agree has garbage output under some circumstances, the intent is that you have a finite resource to spend on 'Hard No'. Other systems use Fate, Moxie, etc, Exalted uses WP but WP is less 'chunky' than those other meta-resources. The other factor is that as much as we play it otherwise, Exalted is not a symetrical game. You are not expected to use an acutal splat book to model the exact powers and functions of opposing characters- Jenna Moran said so herself with regard to Sidereals- as powerful as Shun the Smiling Lady is, it's just not supposed to be used against PCs. You may not like this, but I'm pretty sure she spoke on the topic.

But in practical terms, as much as MDV fist makes sense in a rational resource-management sense, it isn't how people actually think. And a lot of the garbage output of Exalted in general, any edition, is in how people approach games themselves. Like... on paper, if I'm engaged in a social situation, and I take a hard hit of UMI that saps a lot of WP, the game and my first response should't be draw my sword and fite, it should be leave the social scene. Escalating to Fight is a meme that Jon Chung popularized as a means to criticize the garbage output of WP as mental influence resistance. It's an indictment of that mechanic, not an optimization strategy.

This comes back also to the social contracts of ST and players- if the GM follows a heavy social scene with a heavy fight scene, knowing that lots of WP is spent, that ST ought be bapped in the head with the core book. Vice-versa, if the players deliberately engineer the situation to drain someone's WP in social and then gank them before their target can recover, the ST's response can either be 'please don't do that on pain of corebooking', or- more interestingly, mirror the PC's tactics against them.

I think there's a phrase from a game "You cannot break hearts until hearts have been broken." Exalted is big on implicit follow through and recognizing consistent behavior- preferably behavior in line with traits but also maybe not.
 
This is fundamentally the rationale behind the idea of MDV fist, and it's really best described as a deleterious state or garbage output.

Like, setting aside what the mechanics do, which we agree has garbage output under some circumstances, the intent is that you have a finite resource to spend on 'Hard No'. Other systems use Fate, Moxie, etc, Exalted uses WP but WP is less 'chunky' than those other meta-resources. The other factor is that as much as we play it otherwise, Exalted is not a symetrical game. You are not expected to use an acutal splat book to model the exact powers and functions of opposing characters- Jenna Moran said so herself with regard to Sidereals- as powerful as Shun the Smiling Lady is, it's just not supposed to be used against PCs. You may not like this, but I'm pretty sure she spoke on the topic.

But in practical terms, as much as MDV fist makes sense in a rational resource-management sense, it isn't how people actually think. And a lot of the garbage output of Exalted in general, any edition, is in how people approach games themselves. Like... on paper, if I'm engaged in a social situation, and I take a hard hit of UMI that saps a lot of WP, the game and my first response should't be draw my sword and fite, it should be leave the social scene. Escalating to Fight is a meme that Jon Chung popularized as a means to criticize the garbage output of WP as mental influence resistance. It's an indictment of that mechanic, not an optimization strategy.

This comes back also to the social contracts of ST and players- if the GM follows a heavy social scene with a heavy fight scene, knowing that lots of WP is spent, that ST ought be bapped in the head with the core book. Vice-versa, if the players deliberately engineer the situation to drain someone's WP in social and then gank them before their target can recover, the ST's response can either be 'please don't do that on pain of corebooking', or- more interestingly, mirror the PC's tactics against them.

I think there's a phrase from a game "You cannot break hearts until hearts have been broken." Exalted is big on implicit follow through and recognizing consistent behavior- preferably behavior in line with traits but also maybe not.
One of the core reasons my group gave up on 2e was the sheer number of Gentleman's Agreements we had to make to keep the game fun. Huge swaths of mechanics we simply didn't interact with, an agreement to roleplay social disagreement and only spend WP on it if everyone was okay escalating to that part of the system, ect ect. Playing like the mechanics reflect the world and changing how people act is giving the awful design of someone who didn't think shit through more credit than it deserves. The social mechanics and implication of UMI and MDV are things to be worked around. Not engaged with.

To be clear, this is me 100% agreeing with Shyft/leaping off with my own point, not any kind of disagreement.
 
One of the core reasons my group gave up on 2e was the sheer number of Gentleman's Agreements we had to make to keep the game fun. Huge swaths of mechanics we simply didn't interact with, an agreement to roleplay social disagreement and only spend WP on it if everyone was okay escalating to that part of the system, ect ect. Playing like the mechanics reflect the world and changing how people act is giving the awful design of someone who didn't think shit through more credit than it deserves. The social mechanics and implication of UMI and MDV are things to be worked around. Not engaged with.

To be clear, this is me 100% agreeing with Shyft/leaping off with my own point, not any kind of disagreement.

I disagree with the extent of most people's slash/burn approach to 2e. There are problems, but I'm a firm believer in RAI over RAW. Like, you say gentleman's agreements and that is a thing that happens, the 2e Solar game I ran for some friends to show this was very much a 'look at this pothole, look at how we are carefully steering around this pothole. Behold the intent of this mechanic when lensed through 'Not Chungian extremism'.

Like, I've said elsewhere that a great deal of the whiff/splat rocket tag problem of 2e lies not in Magical Flurries or Cheap Huge Weapon Damage (though still worthy of consideration), it's in how the game expects you to track movement and relative position far more than the text actually describes. Like, there are whole chunks of Rules and Exalt explicitly ignores,and chunks that one doesn't, and the poor conveyance of the latter of which i think is a critical reason as to why people were soured more and more on 2e.
 
I disagree with the extent of most people's slash/burn approach to 2e. There are problems, but I'm a firm believer in RAI over RAW. Like, you say gentleman's agreements and that is a thing that happens, the 2e Solar game I ran for some friends to show this was very much a 'look at this pothole, look at how we are carefully steering around this pothole. Behold the intent of this mechanic when lensed through 'Not Chungian extremism'.

I do agree with this.

Honestly, during much of 2e critics of the Exalted system would show up, accurately diagnose a problem with the system, and then propose addressing the problem by making it universal and immediate.

Like, the whole paranoia combat thing. Everyone agreed that paranoia combat was mechanically superior and grindingly un-fun. And so often, the suggested homerule solution was to give everyone all the components to engage in paranoia combat for free. Which confused, and still confuses, me.

Because I ran an Exalted game, and, indeed, once everyone was running full paranoia combos they sourced off the internet, the combat game ceased to be much fun. But getting there took literally hundreds of XP from months and months of game sessions, which WERE fun. People got beaten into unconsciousness and had their arms chopped off and had to make dubious deals with shady demon-summoners to get medical attention. Single warriors fought armies. Blood apes are actually frickin' dangerous. Octavian is a bad mamma-jamma. Giving everyone free paranoia combos would just mean that instead of the combat being fun for a while, then breaking, it would never be fun at all.

A whole lot of the worst problems in Exalted just took a long time to ever arrive if you actually played things out. If people are in the middle of a story about uncovering the secret conspiracy of yozi cultists trying to overthrow Harborhead, they'll actually think hard about buying an investigation charm or two instead of a third martial arts style, and that's fun. Having a parley with mustache-twirling evil villains that doesn't devolve into instant combat is fun. Giving the PCs control of the Five Metal Shrike and then watching them realize how few of their problems can really be solved by vaporizing a city is fun.

For all the 2e was broken in a lot of ways, it was fun if you wanted to have fun with it, and didn't focus exclusively on the sharp jagged parts.
 
Aye, as you say @Phigment - a lot of the problems exist, but in practice they don't come up anywhere near as often. So yes, the problesm should be called out as criticisms of the design and watchposts for future designers to draw insight from. But those are again, not meant to be strategies you share as 'Builds' to win the game.

As much as I despise 3e from a philosophical standpoint, I make no claim to say that people are not having fun with it- it's design does not preclude or deny fun. But fun is... well you can design for it but it's not really something you want to design for.
 
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