I wouldn't have reacted as I did without the unnecessarily provided context of "this fic on QQ", which is why I was annoyed. Since it was actually be asked about for porn the person was reading/writing, rather than a more general "virginity ritual", where I'dve been more like "I guess??? don't make it creepy tho". I maintain that this thread shouldn't be a place people come to for advice on the Exalted porn they're reading/writing.
Exalted Questions Thread
- Thread starter Chehrazad
- Start date
For the sake of completeness, these two passages here are both the relevant paragraphs of the Passion Moray writeups, first from Games of Divinity, second from Roll of Glorious Divinity, Vol.II
The general information is, in a sense, functionally identical. The second embellishes a bit too much, and one can certainly argue that gendering the victim as female, and moreover presenting her as a victim to this power, is a pretty bad look not intended in the same "strange footnote" spirit of the original text. Which coincidentally introduces some unnecessary implications of damsel-peril into things with the followup about Yozi cultists, which would otherwise be read rather neutrally if the same "their" was used as before instead. But this bit didn't simply get invented from whole cloth for the 2e book by spurious authors with weird hangups, the entire bit on notions of "spiritual virginity" and the implications of that terminology was always there. In fact, the "unfortunate things happen to women in sexualized situations around demons" is played up for effect only here, in this one sentence indirectly, for all of Roll of Divinity's demon chapter and embellished to a same degree nowhere else. While meanwhile someone could certainly get a much worse impression in GoD's material where even the brief note tactfully skipped in 2e about the Yozis wearing human guise feels like dropping Holden's favorite word to convey the "milieu".
The actual mentions of prior-established female-harm/peril are frequently downplayed, omitted entirely in Roll II or given a context besides just Being there. Like Florivet, who graphically disfigures women who reject him or displease him in bed for 1e, and while he's still a monster in 2e the tone overall is softened and less explicit, even making no mention of his bedroom habits at all. Or Gumela, who disappears mortal lovers without warning, in 2e the conditions for her release are actually specified rather than left to random whim. Incremental changes as they are, there was still a notion that the original text went a touch too far too quickly, and pulled back.
This isn't up to me to say that these things are Good Actually or even Worthwhile Additions to keep in Yozi-Lore as a result by simple dint of having a place in an old book, Updated To Be Better or otherwise. Times have changed and the most optimistic aim is to move with them gracefully. But if the unspoken goal here is to try and create some kind of wonky revisionist history, as though there was some secret cabal of sex-pervert weirdos out to ruin 2e with bonkers demonic sex shit and subtext misogyny, that argument is going to kinda have to start at Jenna Moran in Games of Divinity and her reasons for putting those bits in there initially the first place. Argue about the inclusion or removal all you want, but don't try to say these things were never there before.
Especially if there are going to be people getting whipped up and hyperbolically shouting down others to read the books.
The general information is, in a sense, functionally identical. The second embellishes a bit too much, and one can certainly argue that gendering the victim as female, and moreover presenting her as a victim to this power, is a pretty bad look not intended in the same "strange footnote" spirit of the original text. Which coincidentally introduces some unnecessary implications of damsel-peril into things with the followup about Yozi cultists, which would otherwise be read rather neutrally if the same "their" was used as before instead. But this bit didn't simply get invented from whole cloth for the 2e book by spurious authors with weird hangups, the entire bit on notions of "spiritual virginity" and the implications of that terminology was always there. In fact, the "unfortunate things happen to women in sexualized situations around demons" is played up for effect only here, in this one sentence indirectly, for all of Roll of Divinity's demon chapter and embellished to a same degree nowhere else. While meanwhile someone could certainly get a much worse impression in GoD's material where even the brief note tactfully skipped in 2e about the Yozis wearing human guise feels like dropping Holden's favorite word to convey the "milieu".
The actual mentions of prior-established female-harm/peril are frequently downplayed, omitted entirely in Roll II or given a context besides just Being there. Like Florivet, who graphically disfigures women who reject him or displease him in bed for 1e, and while he's still a monster in 2e the tone overall is softened and less explicit, even making no mention of his bedroom habits at all. Or Gumela, who disappears mortal lovers without warning, in 2e the conditions for her release are actually specified rather than left to random whim. Incremental changes as they are, there was still a notion that the original text went a touch too far too quickly, and pulled back.
This isn't up to me to say that these things are Good Actually or even Worthwhile Additions to keep in Yozi-Lore as a result by simple dint of having a place in an old book, Updated To Be Better or otherwise. Times have changed and the most optimistic aim is to move with them gracefully. But if the unspoken goal here is to try and create some kind of wonky revisionist history, as though there was some secret cabal of sex-pervert weirdos out to ruin 2e with bonkers demonic sex shit and subtext misogyny, that argument is going to kinda have to start at Jenna Moran in Games of Divinity and her reasons for putting those bits in there initially the first place. Argue about the inclusion or removal all you want, but don't try to say these things were never there before.
Especially if there are going to be people getting whipped up and hyperbolically shouting down others to read the books.
NonSequtur
a body
Because if I'm running with magic-as-socially-constructed the value of virginity is in how people see you, which is ultimately disconnected from any physical act - the sacrifice is not "having sex" but "having people believe you've had sex, with all the nasty baggage that comes with for a woman in such a society".
This is still not adopting a platonic view of social construction.
Hakazin
Serpent Admirer
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Why though? I mean, sure, you evidently have issues with pornography, and that's completely fine, but, if you don't mind, I would like to ask why you're reacting strongly? Sex is the primary ingredient in pornography, and Exalted is a setting that, unlike many, actually acknowledges the existence of sex. Sure, it's covered badly a lot of the time, but it's there. So why should somebody trying to ask a question about Exalted related to sex be automatically shut down, even if the main factor of the story they're trying to tell is about sex, in a setting which actually allows some opportunities to do so? Why does the sex have to be tangential to the story in order for it to not be "creepy", as you put it?
Though, upon thinking about it, the idea of avoiding sex in a porn quest being somehow encouraged is pretty bizarre, on the face of it. I mean, I suppose you could be doing some sort of postmodernist reverse-porn quest where the goal is to avoid having sex as much as possible.
This is actually an IIRC really common thing, especially if it includes the plot point of "you get possesed by ____ if sex happens".
I don't have issues with pornography. I have issues with dropping it where it was unexpected and asking people you aren't super close to randomly about the porn you're reading. Boundaries exist. Boundaries are important. Exalted is a game that acknowledges sex exists, yes. I have run a game where a character was literally a courtesan with high-resources from having sex with important rich people. But, the thing is? That player is someone I knew and liked, who ran it by me and then the group, as an abstract "I'd like to bring this up and have it be a thing, we all cool with that"?
It wasn't "Dive into an existing discussion and say "I'm reading/writing some porn and I'd like mechanical help with that." In a general thread that's ostensibly supposed to be safe for work. And, the kicker, of course it's vaguely mysogynistic weird stuff that now instead of being annoying makes it uncomfortable.
Explore sex in Exalted with your friends, in your group, after actual conversations and boundary discussions. Don't drop into a general thread for help with your weird porn, and start the slow process to "The Exalted General thread is now open to anyone from QQ who feels like sharing their weird fetishes to the world".
Hakazin
Serpent Admirer
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Ah. Okay, that's entirely reasonable. I'm still taking issue with the somewhat judgemental tone your posts seem to have, but that's not a discussion suitable for this thread or one I'm interested in having publicly.
So, to change the subject, what are good sources of characterization for the Realm's secondary schools?
I view Pasiap's Stair as very Full Metal Jacket, in tone and theme.
The thing is, this is a public forum, and this is a public thread where people are outright encouraged to ask questions about Exalted's mechancis and setting. @SwiftRosenthal went into no obscene detail and in fact didn't even say it was a porn quest - you just assumed based on the fact that it was from QQ.
And then you overreacted, harshly and rudely, to a valid question.
Now, I have no particular interest in investigating further because, let's be honest, you're probably right - it's probably a porn quest with a badly handled, misogynistic treatment of virginity. But until and unless we bother to do that investigation, we shouldn't be assuming it, and changing the way we treat people based on that assumption, in a public questions thread.
On a side note, I do in fact identify as ace, thank you very much, and in fact my position is that society should tip-toe less around sex and deal with it head-on, because keeping it as the hush-hush don't-talk-about-it thing in the shadows it is today is doing horrible things - and if that means having to see more of it, well, I'm not super enthused about it but oh well.
But you're right that this isn't really the place for it. I'm just mildly annoyed you picked that particular example.
hah, no. If it's from QQ, the assumption is porn. I'm not investigating shit. If it's not porn, that should be clarified, same as "I am reading this great HP fanfic on alt sex stories, how valid is a potion to regrow Hermione's virginity" can be safely assumed to be porn. And, frankly, porn I'd rather not inflict on myself.
Context matters. It's a general thread. Not an NSFW thread. And "I'm reading this thing on a porn site, what's the mechanical value of virginity" is not something that belongs outside of an NSFW Exalted help thread.
Which is also something that shouldn't be on SV, imo, just because of how goddamned creepy the fandom gets when you give them NSFW threads.
Last edited:
I want you to take a chill pill, my god.
- Location
- West Michigan
Well first of all it's not a quest. It's a fic.
Second, even though the thread is tagged with "porn is the plot," the vast majority of the text, by both chapter- and wordcount, is... actual plot. In fifteen (average) thousand-word chapters, there's all of one sex scene (though 16 is almost certain to be one), and it was only a chapter-and-a-half at most. That's practically nothing. (Not entirely nothing, but not even close to what Kaiya assumed.)
And for all the uproar about misogyny, you all ignored this part:
Emphasis mine. I appreciate that the trope has a lot of misogynist baggage, but making it gender-neutral solves most of the problems AFAICT.
One of the best-regarded Exalted quests in SB/SV/QQ forum-trinity history - "...God-Harem King!" - was held at QQ, by the way, and in the SFW section no less. (Yes, there is a SFW section.)
NonSequtur
a body
This is still not adopting a platonic view of social construction.
platonism get out :<
- Location
- Denmark
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Rad. More aces is good civilization, I'm ace myself so that shows how good we are at agreeing.
- Location
- Singapore
I got an idea. But I need some help.
1. In exalted, what makes someone popular?
2. Should terrestrial circle sorcery be able to mimic training effects?
1. In exalted, what makes someone popular?
2. Should terrestrial circle sorcery be able to mimic training effects?
1. In the entire span of human history, what makes someone popular? Seriously, stop with these insanely broad, completely unanswerable questions.
2. No, Sorcery doesn't train people, it gives them mutations and superpowers at higher levels.
- Location
- Singapore
Reborn in body and soul
The sorcerer places his hand on the targets head, chanting the song of rebirth and self improvement. The target is reduced to ash.... and is reformed seconds later, reborn and made.
The targets appearance is still recognidable. But there are changes. His face is cleaner. His jaw stronger. A smile is on his face. He speaks with the ease of a socialite, with confidence in himself. His body looks strong and wiry, with well defined muscles.
This is all a lie. The human beneath is still there. The confidence is made sorceorusly, but the body has been altered by magic. If the man was to lift a sword, he would still struggle.
The sorcerous spell takes the target, and remolds them to a more pleasing form. Appearance has been added by 3 dots, up to 5.
Now, I'm not sure whether or not I should add in charisma and social dots. Is this allowed for terrestrial circle?
Also, should I make weaknesses? Maybe some substance that he or she has to avoid, or it only works for a month?
The sorcerer places his hand on the targets head, chanting the song of rebirth and self improvement. The target is reduced to ash.... and is reformed seconds later, reborn and made.
The targets appearance is still recognidable. But there are changes. His face is cleaner. His jaw stronger. A smile is on his face. He speaks with the ease of a socialite, with confidence in himself. His body looks strong and wiry, with well defined muscles.
This is all a lie. The human beneath is still there. The confidence is made sorceorusly, but the body has been altered by magic. If the man was to lift a sword, he would still struggle.
The sorcerous spell takes the target, and remolds them to a more pleasing form. Appearance has been added by 3 dots, up to 5.
Now, I'm not sure whether or not I should add in charisma and social dots. Is this allowed for terrestrial circle?
Also, should I make weaknesses? Maybe some substance that he or she has to avoid, or it only works for a month?
- Location
- Gladstone, OR
If you mean 'what traits do you buy to GET popular' you want Presence, Performance, Socialize, then Charisma, Manipulation and Appearance. You can also become popular through any trait really, but that's more about roleplaying and having a good rapport with your ST.
the (2e) traits that represent popularity include but are not limited to Influence, Contacts (Corebook), Reputation (MoEP Dragonblooded), Connections (DBs, Siderals) and possibly others I'm not remembering.
Regarding your second point, Sorcery does have an example Training Effect spell, in Celestial Circle, called 'Gift of Knowledge' from 2e Sids (not sure where it was printed in 1e if ever). It costs 25m, takes an hour where the teacher touches the student and transfers a memory, experience, or understanding of a mechanical trait, which includes Attributes, Abilities, Specialties, spells, Charms and Combos. It has the standard caveats like 'tutor must know more than teh student/cannot raise the trait higher than their own'. The recipient pays XP for the trait as normal.
Now the followup is this: Is Gift of Knowledge a good spell? I think it should rightly exist in some form as the tropes/trappings of Sorcery, but it's a poor man's bolted on concession to the Sidereal theme of vizier and old master. It's an unfortunate statement that all the old masters HAVE to be Sorcerers for them to teach you things. (They really don't, but when presented with 'the slow way' vs 'the fast way', people take the slow way as a stick.)
- Location
- Singapore
Um.... sorry, but too late.
- Location
- Gladstone, OR
It happens- so your spell you drafted, how about before you try writing the crunch, you describe what you want to do please? I can take from the draft that you want a 'Sorcerer makes someone pretty/handsome/charismatic'. effect. Is that correct?
- Location
- Singapore
Yes indeed. I've been thinking of stuff. Remember evil sorcerers? Remember how they're usually wrinkled, old, ugly looking, antisocial, frightening?
Well, why would people allow that? In other words, if you go to a king or send an envoy, you wouldn't want someone ugly or unffiendly. You would want someone dazzling. Someone incredible. Someone who would wow the crowds, and help you bend the kings ear.
And remember how evil sorcerers and emperor's and kings always have beautiful ladies tied up and chained around them like jabba the hutt? Where did you think they got them from?
Also, this was pretty much obtained from disguise of the new face. If sorcery can let you imitate someone and change your face and mannerisms, it can damn well make you prettier and a better talker.
No. This works for no circle. Don't write spells to just give people dots of stuff. If your idea is "A power to give someone More Dots", you can safely assume it's gonna be an issue. It's definitely not Terrestrial circle. "I cast a magic illusion on myself" is not comparable to "I can spam an effect to give you +30xp worth of dots."
Last edited:
- Location
- Singapore
Can you, like, stop screeching?
Just put in a caveat for xp debt. Or make the sorcerer pay for it.
Just put in a caveat for xp debt. Or make the sorcerer pay for it.
If you don't want to be told that your idea has issues, don't post your homebrew and ask "Does this work" five times a day.