Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

BirdBodhisattva · Jul 9, 2021

Dear reader! Whether you are new here, archive-reading and whatnot, or you are already someone who has been with us for quite a while, I would like to say a few words that I believe are best kept close to mind.

-This is an MLP quest. And more importantly, none of us are gratuitously cruel. So good things will happen on this quest, and I hope that enough good things have already happened to prove that.
-This is also a horror quest, so bad things will happen. Bad things might happen to good characters if you are not able to protect them, and you most certainly will not be able to intervene if you lack the tools to do so.
-And finally, this is a quest in which you jostle with powers greater than yourself, with all that it entails.

Please, do keep those things in mind as you go forward. But ultimately, this is also a quest in which it is hoped we all have fun! So if any of the above points is not exactly your cup of tea, or somehow make the experience as a whole "not worth it", then this quest might not be for you. Which is fine! Individual tastes are a thing, so don't think any more about it if you don't want to read anymore. And regardless, I hope you have a lovely day!

Kaelor said:
PSA for whoever needs to hear it:

Readers should take their own mental health into consideration when voting and not subject themselves to triggering narrative elements like rape or constant mental torture of a friend just for the Greatest Good of a world that doesn't exist.

If those are fine for you or Regrettable is even more triggering, then GREAT! More power to you. But you aren't a bad or selfish person for picking the option that keeps the characters you've emotionally connected with safe. [REDACTED for spoiler warning]

This is a high intensity quest that doesn't hold back when it comes to horror and negative consequences. Take care of yourself.

(Quote slightly edited to avoid spoilers)

Ericwinter · Feb 1, 2021

Heart is about music, the beat and dance of life which is unceasing but never constant. Growth and change are not anathema, so long as there is an underlying connectivity.

AramilOniasha · Feb 1, 2021

[X] To become unceasing.

She smiles, plain and simply. A smile that tells you that she finally understands you, perhaps better than you understand yourself. "You don't need to do this," she says calmly, her tone both gentle and patient, "you don't need to completely let go of them." She then floats the box of matches back into your bag, "you just need to stop holding on too tightly," she finishes saying, taking you by the hoof and gently pulling you with her, towards the night. And you think, deep down, that she just stopped you from doing something you would eventually have regretted. You think, deep down, that you feel something pulse inside your chest, right next to your heart. Something faint and steady, that might be like what you felt every time you hugged your brother against your chest.

(Jade Whistle will strive to become unceasing, adopting HEART as her secondary Lore. Velvet Covers will gain one scrap of HEART Lore for having saved one who was about to cease. Jade Whistle will not lose her love for collecting things.)

Starlit Horizon · Feb 1, 2021

permeakra said:
I don't disagree with that. It's just, mmm.
Heart is a preservation force, including preservation of life unceasing. But open dynamic systems (like living organisms) often maintain a balance based on response on external influence. In this case preservation of internal balance pretty much requires change in how the system acts, based on external change.

So, I look at it as Moth, and Forge are proactive change (in different sense), while Heart has no choice but include some aspects of reactive change.

Yes, you found just the right words. "Heart has no choice but to" indeed. Like, I am not saying someone of Heart can't change, even if Heart was a stasis (which it isn't) - at the end, even most Hours don't embody their principle in its totality, let alone a simple occultists. Yet, it's in Heart nature to not change when it's not required, when it has other choice, and given Heart's Eternal nature high level Heart-occultist doesn't need to change that often, and even more certainly they don't seek change.

Yes, for Jade it would be only a minor lore, not major, but none less she wouldn't want to change when she would be able to just endure, and she would be able endure a lot of pain. Yes, I don't hold on the old that much and don't value it greatly either - I, at the end, still count Moth ascension as my favorite one, even in interpretation when it's leaves very little of someone who once begun to walk on that path - but I don't think that Heart can't be just as unhealthy.

As the starter, I hope we all agree that "leaving what you don't like in yourself behind" can - not necessary will be, but can - be a healthy way to cope with your issues just as well? And the second part, do we agree that the Heart can be unhealthy just as well?

Based on top of that, let's count other benefits of the choices. All what the Heart scrap does is achieving the second level earlier, cause if we don't get it we just would get 2 scraps from that lv3 book instead. Forge scrap, on the other hand, does bring us closer to level 3 in that lore.

Second benefit is minor Heart-aligned ally vs Forge-aligned one. It's true that we already have Rarity, but she, again, is only minor Forge, and we have no one Forge-major on the horizon, while we can secure allegiance of Starry Dancer, who is major Heart aspect - and, a little remainder, we probably have the most progress with "confidanting her" compared to all other Inner Circle advisors (save Jade, obviously).

In this situation, I would also note that Forge is the Lore of Creation, so in theoretical artefact-crafting (which would probaly fall under Jade's responsibility if cult would ever start doing so) it would be much more beneficial than Heart. In general, Forge is one of the most "useful" principle in game, and while that was changed in this quest, the themes of Heart are just too introspected for most purposes. Like, it's useful to you personally (and may, to be fair, be very useful against the End is Beautiful if our disagreement with Master's policies will enter "Hot" phase), but to someone else? If you have Forge you would probably of more use. So, as an ally, I would argue that Forge-Jade is more useful compared to Heart-Jade long term.

The third concern, is, indeed, healthiness, but both ways have means to screw you up so much and both could just end up harmless if you are careful enough that we have little, if any, means to actually find "healthier" option.

Ericwinter · Feb 1, 2021

Starlit Horizon said:
The third concern, is, indeed, healthiness, but both ways have means to screw you up so much and both could just end up harmless if you are careful enough that we have little, if any, means to actually find "healthier" option.

Ugh, stop making sense. I mean, yeah, they're both valid methods, generally speaking, but... I don't know, it's the little things that make me want to go for Heart over Forge. Like her love of collecting things, and the happy memories of her family. I don't want Jade to lose those. I don't want to have to make a judgement based mostly on what's more useful to us.

Bakkasama · Feb 1, 2021

Ericwinter said:
Ugh, stop making sense. I mean, yeah, they're both valid methods, generally speaking, but... I don't know, it's the little things that make me want to go for Heart over Forge. Like her love of collecting things, and the happy memories of her family. I don't want Jade to lose those. I don't want to have to make a judgement based mostly on what's more useful to us.

That said, I think the Forge approach might be what is best for Jade. She is nowhere near done healing, this is just what approach she will try to do so.

BirdBodhisattva said:
Regardless of your choice, you can tell that Jade Whistle is not "better". But you are glad she decided to take the first step, and you promise yourself that you will be there when she takes the second.

As for the methods involved:

BirdBodhisattva said:
[] To destroy that which will not change.

You see something click inside of her. She then looks at you with those kind, caring eyes of her, seeing that you are… seeing that you are okay right now. Then she looks at the house, remembering everything you told her. And finally, she looks at the match you are holding. A spark flicks from her horn a moment later, lighting the match, and she nods you the blessings that only a true friend can give. The house is ablaze moments later, the two of you running together into the shadows of the night. You think you can hear something as you run away, the sound of you and your brother playing. You think the two of you sound happy.

(Jade Whistle will strive to destroy that which will not change, adopting FORGE as her secondary Lore. Velvet Covers will gain one scrap of FORGE Lore for having witnessed such change. Jade Whistle's house, the place she knows to be her tomb, will be destroyed.)

Forge would be about changing. If something is painful, leave it behind and try to start anew. The destruction of the house is a show of commitment and attacking the problem at the root seems like it has the bigger chance of preventing her regression into a suicidal mindset. It basically tries to destroy her depression and replace it with something else.

I think self actualization and wanting to be somepony else -because she hates what she had become- is what Jade would want. It is not like she would destroy everything (she did take what she thought was important, the things that connected her to us and her brother) but she wants to get rid of the bad feelings of the past.

BirdBodhisattva said:
[] To become unceasing.

She smiles, plain and simply. A smile that tells you that she finally understands you, perhaps better than you understand yourself. "You don't need to do this," she says calmly, her tone both gentle and patient, "you don't need to completely let go of them." She then floats the box of matches back into your bag, "you just need to stop holding on too tightly," she finishes saying, taking you by the hoof and gently pulling you with her, towards the night. And you think, deep down, that she just stopped you from doing something you would eventually have regretted. You think, deep down, that you feel something pulse inside your chest, right next to your heart. Something faint and steady, that might be like what you felt every time you hugged your brother against your chest.

(Jade Whistle will strive to become unceasing, adopting HEART as her secondary Lore. Velvet Covers will gain one scrap of HEART Lore for having saved one who was about to cease. Jade Whistle will not lose her love for collecting things.)

On the other hand, Heart seems to be about continuing onwards regardless of the pain and the solution is not to discard what hurts you but try to have it be less important? I have trouble explaining it in a positive way, caring less sounds wrong but it is basically that, hoping that it hurts less with time. Thing is, Jade already gave it time and it didn't work. True, she is trying to apply lore lessons to make it more effective but considering that it is the start of the journey to recovery, I am reluctant to go down this path. Actively trying to move forward is different than always thinking of the past, that's true. But in practical terms, still holding into the memories but not as tightly... isn't that still what she tried and failed at before? She wasn't as committed to that path but it still almost drew her to suicide, twice.

It does have its advantages: she now has ponies to try to fill the void in her heart as opposed to how it was before and it is not quite as drastic as the fact that her losing her special talent is a realistic result for Forge. But it is still a method that failed and it is still a path that will likely be more painful than doing away with the past.

Not to mention that, if we want to progress in the lores, we can't exactly shy away from their lessons. Sometimes, ending things will be healthier and less painful, sometimes it will be better to preserve things and keep going forward regardless of how hard things become and sometimes we will have to make a break and start anew. Just because heart is what we are usually taught is the right thing in other media, it does not mean that it will always work out and I am not as optimistic in this case given Jade's history. If she truly hates herself as she is now, it is probably better for her to change herself than to just carry one with life and learn to live with it. The later does give her more time to heal from her pain but it is not going to actively help her to do so.

Toolbox · Feb 1, 2021

[X] To become unceasing.

Ericwinter · Feb 1, 2021

Bakkasama said:
Not to mention that, if we want to progress in the lores, we can't exactly shy away from their lessons. Sometimes, ending things will be healthier and less painful, sometimes it will be better to preserve things and keep going forward regardless of how hard things become and sometimes we will have to make a break and start anew. Just because heart is what we are usually taught is the right thing in other media, it does not mean that it will always work out and I am not as optimistic in this case given Jade's history. If she truly hates herself as she is now, it is probably better for her to change herself than to just carry one with life and learn to live with it. The later does give her more time to heal from her pain but it is not going to actively help her to do so.

Sure, but... it's also about balancing with her other lore, and Jade will still be very heavily Lantern, which is a big part of what screwed her in the first place. I expect her to still find and learn things that will hurt, painful truths and such, and... well, I don't think a constant and regular remaking of herself to fit with those truths will be as good in the long term as being able to accept and move on from those things. This specific problem? Yeah, Forge might be better. In general? That's a bit harder to say.

Lykantos · Feb 1, 2021

[X] To destroy that which will not change.

Bakkasama · Feb 1, 2021

Ericwinter said:
Sure, but... it's also about balancing with her other lore, and Jade will still be very heavily Lantern, which is a big part of what screwed her in the first place. I expect her to still find and learn things that will hurt, painful truths and such, and... well, I don't think a constant and regular remaking of herself to fit with those truths will be as good in the long term as being able to accept and move on from those things. This specific problem? Yeah, Forge might be better. In general? That's a bit harder to say.

I don't see why not. The option says that she learns to destroy that which refuses to change, so it is something that applies not to all things but to those that she can't do something about. The other option is to become unceasing, which would be to keep moving forward regardless of what she learns. Perhaps Heart might be best in the context of all the mind blowing revelations she might learn, if we think that either going full steam ahead or changing directions and ignore the issue is the way to go with that but for normal problems the Forge lesson seems to be fine.

Starlit Horizon · Feb 1, 2021

Ericwinter said:
Sure, but... it's also about balancing with her other lore, and Jade will still be very heavily Lantern, which is a big part of what screwed her in the first place. I expect her to still find and learn things that will hurt, painful truths and such, and... well, I don't think a constant and regular remaking of herself to fit with those truths will be as good in the long term as being able to accept and move on from those things. This specific problem? Yeah, Forge might be better. In general? That's a bit harder to say.

If we want to address Lantern specifically, then Forge should work way better. At the end, Forge subvert Lantern, while it still will be only a minor lore (and thus its level will be lower, and thus the issues easier to mitigate). As for "remaking youself to fit the truth", I should note that Forge is not particularly about changing yourself - that's Moth, and Forge is ambivalent. And, it should be noted, even such truths as the principles themselves are expression of the will of the Hours and not "just true". Before The Forge of Days eclipsed and shattered the Flint, before The Red Grail drank The Tide, before The Moth stole The Wheel's skin those principles were different. One of the traits of CS universe is that said universe is changeable. For something great - like the principles - it requires equally cosmic strength, but for lesser things? They can be changed. There are exceptions, and only at a price, but they can be changed. A man can defeat the occult. The hunters sometimes can survive even King Crucible's assault, of all things!

If the path of the Forge will be chosen, Jade will change, but will she mostly change herself or the world around? That is not decided yet.

Ericwinter · Feb 1, 2021

Bakkasama said:
I don't see why not. The option says that she learns to destroy that which refuses to change, so it is something that applies not to all things but to those that she can't do something about. The other option is to become unceasing, which would be to keep moving forward regardless of what she learns. Perhaps Heart might be best in the context of all the mind blowing revelations she might learn, if we think that either going full steam ahead or changing directions and ignore the issue is the way to go with that but for normal problems the Forge lesson seems to be fine.

I'm more concerned about things she can't destroy, or things that would be problematic if they were destroyed. For example, if she came to the conclusion that her friendships were dangerous, or hurting her. Which is, I'll note, a painfully common trope even without Lore influences.

Starlit Horizon said:
If we want to address Lantern specifically, then Forge should work way better. At the end, Forge subvert Lantern, while it still will be only a minor lore (and thus its level will be lower, and thus the issues easier to mitigate).

I'm not really sure we should depend on the whole subversion mechanic? Has that even been confirmed to be a thing here by Bird? From what we've seen, the Lores seem to interact in a much more free manner.

Artemis1992 · Feb 1, 2021

Ericwinter said:
Sure, but... it's also about balancing with her other lore, and Jade will still be very heavily Lantern, which is a big part of what screwed her in the first place. I expect her to still find and learn things that will hurt, painful truths and such, and... well, I don't think a constant and regular remaking of herself to fit with those truths will be as good in the long term as being able to accept and move on from those things. This specific problem? Yeah, Forge might be better. In general? That's a bit harder to say.

Forge is not just about constantly remaking yourself (indeed, the constant change would be closer to Moth), once you are scarred by the fires of the Forge you are hardened and will not easily be wounded again.

Bakkasama · Feb 1, 2021

Ericwinter said:
I'm more concerned about things she can't destroy, or things that would be problematic if they were destroyed. For example, if she came to the conclusion that her friendships were dangerous, or hurting her. Which is, I'll note, a painfully common trope even without Lore influences.

Then she ends said friendship if it can't be fixed. That is not exactly the best example: if a relationship is toxic or dangerous or just hurts her then it should be ended, lores or not.

Besides, lores won't define all her life. Otherwise we would be a lot more worried about Rarity.

Ericwinter · Feb 1, 2021

Bakkasama said:
Then she ends said friendship if it can't be fixed. That is not exactly the best example: if a relationship is toxic or dangerous or just hurts her then it should be ended, lores or not.

Besides, lores won't define all her life. Otherwise we would be a lot more worried about Rarity.

I... think you misunderstood. I meant in the sort of "enemies might use you to get to me", dangerous, or "I can't bear to lose you", sort of dangerous. You know, the kind of stupid thoughts that make people try to cut out their loved ones and people who care about them because they think it's a weakness. And Rarity... well for one, we didn't get to decide what her Lores are, but she's also got Harmony and the Elements to fall back on, while Jade just kinda has us.

Starlit Horizon · Feb 1, 2021

Ericwinter said:
I'm not really sure we should depend on the whole subversion mechanic? Has that even been confirmed to be a thing here by Bird? From what we've seen, the Lores seem to interact in a much more free manner.

As far as I can remember, there were neither confirmation nor the opposite, but it was very heavily hinted by original game itself, and I mean lore part, not just gameplay. In the "The Gospel of Zacchaeus" Knock has been referred as lore "above all" which can be traced to its ability to subvert all other lores. And the whole gameplay mechanic, yes. So we can't be sure, but there's a weak evidence for it and none against it.

For your concern about friendship - attempt to remake the world so your friend aren't you weakness but your power instead is at least just as forge-aligned, if not more. Losing yourself is, at the end, Moth and not Forge, and people are at least in part defined by their connection. Similarly, I can rise concern that Heart-Longs literary loosing their voices, and that "Heart does not want to change" thing.

Basically, Forge is at least just as good and just as bad, but potently a little better in occult aspect.

Bakkasama · Feb 1, 2021

Ericwinter said:
I... think you misunderstood. I meant in the sort of "enemies might use you to get to me", dangerous, or "I can't bear to lose you", sort of dangerous. You know, the kind of stupid thoughts that make people try to cut out their loved ones and people who care about them because they think it's a weakness. And Rarity... well for one, we didn't get to decide what her Lores are, but she's also got Harmony and the Elements to fall back on, while Jade just kinda has us.

So you think that Jade, the pony who defined her life around how painful it was to lose those she loves and beong left alone, is likely to discard the ponies she might grow to care about and go back to that out of fear of it happening? While I do realise that people do stupid things because of fear, if she were the kind to do that sort of thing she would likely do so regardless of the chosen lore. That argument is so extreme that, by the same measure, she could think that she can survive her new friends dying if she chooses Heart and not take precautions to protect them.

Just because the Forge option would be to destroy the past that keeps hurting her it doesn't mean that she is going to destroy everything for the sake of it. That would be learning just the wrong lessons and that is just as likely with Heart as it is with Forge. Just because several years of suffering and two near suicides drove her to destroy the past as a drastic measure it does not mean she will be eager to destroy her future.

Edit: Another argument for Forge. Her depression left her with so little will to do anything that she stopped taking care for herself and relied on the cult to have stuff to do. With Forge, (which is not just destruction but to create from it) she might actually find a hobby involving doing stuff. Yes, I do realise that with Heart she keeps the one she has already (collecting stuff) but she didn't exactly take care of the things that she collected in the meantime. It might be time for her to change to something more involved.

Edit^2: Jade also has Octavia now. Just saying.

Which might be an argument for Heart, in that Octavia knows that Jade's special talent was collecting things and might find it odd that she is making a clean break from it but Jade reinventing herself shouldn't be that weird since she knows she hated how she was. Plus, people change over the years and it has been several years since they were best friends.

Ericwinter · Feb 1, 2021

Bakkasama said:
So you think that Jade, the pony who defined her life around how painful it was to lose those she loves and beong left alone, is likely to discard the ponies she might grow to care about and go back to that out of fear of it happening? While I do realise that people do stupid things because of fear, if she were the kind to do that sort of thing she would likely do so regardless of the chosen lore. That argument is so extreme that, by the same measure, she could think that she can survive her new friends dying if she chooses Heart and not take precautions to protect them.

Just because the Forge option would be to destroy the past that keeps hurting her it doesn't mean that she is going to destroy everything for the sake of it. That would be learning just the wrong lessons and that is just as likely with Heart as it is with Forge. Just because several years of suffering and two near suicides drove her to destroy the past as a drastic measure it does not mean she will be eager to destroy her future.

When that's explicitly the lesson being learnt? I think it is entirely possible yes. And sure, Heart could lead to the conclusion you just pointed out... but that is not her responsibility. People can and will take their own precautions. And that's the problem, for me. They can both turn out just as bad or just as good as the other, but I see the Heart downsides being more easily mitigateable than Forge.

Also I would just prefer to read about a Heart-influenced Jade than a Forge-influences one. We can go back and forth all day on what's more useful or what's more or less psychologically dangerous, but in the end I'm going to choose the fluffiest answer, and Heart if fluffy as all hell.

permeakra · Feb 1, 2021

Starlit Horizon said:
Yet, it's in Heart nature to not change when it's not required, when it has other choice, and given Heart's Eternal nature high level Heart-occultist doesn't need to change that often, and even more certainly they don't seek change.

AFAIK, this trait is known as integrity and is generally considered a good thing.

Starlit Horizon said:
As the starter, I hope we all agree that "leaving what you don't like in yourself behind" can - not necessary will be, but can - be a healthy way to cope with your issues just as well? And the second part, do we agree that the Heart can be unhealthy just as well?

Doubtful maybe and yep. But what you describe is not a Forge thing - it's a Moth thing. Forge is much more ... thorough. As an example: to leave behind a habit of smoking is a Moth thing. A Forge thing would be to leave behind the ability to have a habit in the first place.

Starlit Horizon said:
All what the Heart scrap does is achieving the second level earlier, cause if we don't get it we just would get 2 scraps from that lv3 book instead. Forge scrap, on the other hand, does bring us closer to level 3 in that lore.

This analysis is very much irrelevant in my opinion for one simple thing: we have three actions basically preallocated for next turn (Letter, Mansus dive, Twilight) and one thing we should finally address (teaching Selene). I'm unconvinced that we should take reading as our fifth action, there is a plenty of things we should consider. All of this might give us scraps of Lore.

Starlit Horizon said:
In general, Forge is one of the most "useful" principle in game,

Funny thing, it is one that is least "useful" in my experience.

Bakkasama said:
On the other hand, Heart seems to be about continuing onwards regardless of the pain and the solution is not to discard what hurts you but try to have it be less important? I

More like to build on top of it. Or, if you look at it from a different angle, to digest them.

Look, memories work in weird ways, but one thing that is most assured - they are rewritten every time we remember them. We might have problems rewriting them in a desirable way, but they do change. So, Heart is about changing the way you look at painful memories - so they wouldn't hurt you anymore.

Jade didn't try to build on her memories, neither she tried to change them - her Lantern forced her to relive her memories the way they were. She shouldn't destroy her memories, she should change her view on them. Organic growth and not destruction.

Bakkasama · Feb 1, 2021

permeakra said:
AFAIK, this trait is known as integrity and is generally considered a good thing.

Doubtful maybe and yep. But what you describe is not a Forge thing - it's a Moth thing. Forge is much more ... thorough. As an example: to leave behind a habit of smoking is a Moth thing. A Forge thing would be to leave behind the ability to have a habit in the first place.

This analysis is very much irrelevant in my opinion for one simple thing: we have three actions basically preallocated for next turn (Letter, Mansus dive, Twilight) and one thing we should finally address (teaching Selene). I'm unconvinced that we should take reading as our fifth action, there is a plenty of things we should consider. All of this might give us scraps of Lore.

Funny thing, it is one that is least "useful" in my experience.

More like to build on top of it. Or, if you look at it from a different angle, to digest them.

Look, memories work in weird ways, but one thing that is most assured - they are rewritten every time we remember them. We might have problems rewriting them in a desirable way, but they do change. So, Heart is about changing the way you look at painful memories - so they wouldn't hurt you anymore.

Jade didn't try to build on her memories, neither she tried to change them - her Lantern forced her to relive her memories the way they were. She shouldn't destroy her memories, she should change her view on them. Organic growth and not destruction.

That is not Heart though. It is not about having a positive view of things, it is about being relentless, being determined and keep going forward. It is about powering through the pain and sadness and hoping it heals eventually. Sure, it is known in creatures that can know happiness in the face of adversity but it doesn't talk about finding happiness in it but despite it. It is not that Heart will make it so that she sees the memories in a new light but that it will give her time and make her determined that yes, life is shit and this makes me miserable but I can find other things.

It doesn't actually adress the issue and it won't magically disappear. It is the start of the journey and the choice is between leaving the past behind so that you can be happy and trying to power forward to find happiness despite your baggage.

Heart will give her time to change her view on her memories but it shouldn't actually help her doing so from what we know about it. That is on Jade and Jade failed at it so far.

permeakra · Feb 1, 2021

Bakkasama said:
That is not Heart though. It is not about having a positive view of things, it is about being relentless, being determined and keep going forward.

"It is unstoppable in the face of adversity, and its followers are often characterized by relentless cheerfulness and obsessive determination." It's very much a Heart thing, or, at least, one of the ways it might manifest.

Bakkasama said:
It doesn't actually adress the issue and it won't magically disappear.

It would be a good thing. If Eldritch lore starts helping with issues, something is going south.

Pittauro · Feb 1, 2021

Starlit Horizon said:
One of the traits of CS universe is that said universe is changeable. For something great - like the principles - it requires equally cosmic strength, but for lesser things? They can be changed. There are exceptions, and only at a price, but they can be changed. A man can defeat the occult. The hunters sometimes can survive even King Crucible's assault, of all things!

and we don't actually KNOW if all the Hours are still alright. The fact the lores' influence on Equestria got weaker and somewhat supplanted by Harmony actually implies at least some of the Major Hours died (though, apparently. Birdy's favourite hour is still around to give us problems...)

It's possible that, right now, changing what a principle means/does might actually be easier than at any other time in history.

What I'm trying to say is, basically: This could be a second Litomachy, A second change of the guard.

I already mentioned a theory about the Master trying to groom us and the other inner advisors as possible Hour/Name replacements/followers.

Maybe, if we ascend high enough... we can change the lores a bit, nudge them just enough so they would be more... complementary, and not opposite, to Harmony and Equestria.

permeakra said:
This analysis is very much irrelevant in my opinion for one simple thing: we have three actions basically preallocated for next turn (Letter, Mansus dive, Twilight) and one thing we should finally address (teaching Selene). I'm unconvinced that we should take reading as our fifth action, there is a plenty of things we should consider. All of this might give us scraps of Lore.

We need the reading action to bring winter to lvl 3, so that's mostly locked in.

permeakra · Feb 1, 2021

Pittauro said:
We need the reading action to bring winter to lvl 3, so that's mostly locked in.

We might get needed Winter scarp in Mansus. Or during some other action if we are lucky.

Bakkasama · Feb 1, 2021

permeakra said:
It is unstoppable in the face of adversity, and its followers are often characterized by relentless cheerfulness and obsessive determination." It's very much a Heart thing, or, at least, one of the ways it might manifest.

And which of the two do you think Jade will likely to fall into? Relentless cherfulness or obsessive determination? Trying to see the bright side or trying to power through adversity?

permeakra said:
We might get needed Winter scarp in Mansus. Or during some other action if we are lucky.

We want the scrap to explore the Mansus though and of the other choices only the letter might give us a scrap, which seems unlikely.

Pittauro · Feb 1, 2021

permeakra said:
We might get needed Winter scarp in Mansus. Or during some other action if we are lucky.

we might, but we are likely going to face the hurdle. And in that case, the extra bonus from Winter is something we very much would want.

And if we get a scrap from the mansus, well, better to get an higher level one anyway.

Also I really want to make sure we get Winter 3. Ideally I'd want Winter 3 the coming turn, and Heart 3 the one after (we just need another Heart lvl2+ book...)

I think the Heart vs Forge vote is, in the end, going to come up to personal preference. Mechanically speaking the differences are small enough that they don't nudge enough toward one option over the other.

Forge gives us 1 extra scrap. Heart leaves us a house to possibly use later. Rarity already has minor forge, but Starry has major Heart and we're likely to pursue her soon if nothing else comes up (...so it's actually not that certain..). We also have an Heartifact that can make up for lacking Heart in our followers (until we actually sacrifice it in a ritual at least).

Starlit Horizon · Feb 1, 2021

permeakra said:
AFAIK, it is known as Integrity and is generally considered a good thing.

Doubtful maybe and yep. But what you describe is not a Forge thing - it's a Moth thing. Forge is much more ... thorough. As an example: to leave behind a habit of smoking is a Moth thing. A Forge thing would be to leave behind the ability to have a habit in the first place.

This analysis is very much irrelevant in my opinion for one simple thing: we have three actions basically preallocated for next turn (Letter, Mansus dive, Twilight) and one thing we should finally address (teaching Selene). I'm unconvinced that we should take reading as our fifth action, there is a plenty of things we should consider. All of this might give us scraps of Lore.

Funny thing, it is one that is least "useful" in my experience.

About Heart: yes, integrity is a good thing. Sadly, if the state one is left in is near-suicidal depression staying in that state is not a good thing. Even if you will eventually accumulate enough new experience that old would would be that big in comparison, they still would be here - they are part of you too, and thus will likely persevere through the eternity too.

And basically what Bakkasama just said.

About Forge (and its distinction from Moth): I would say it that certainty. Like, if someone would ask what the difference between change though Forge and through Moth I would say it's purposefulness. Moth is lost, Moth is confused. Yes, if Forge would want to solve the problem with smoking it can (and maybe even would) destroy even the ability to have that habit, but more importantly it's about choice. Moth moves from, Forge moves to. So leaving behind parts of yourself to remake yourself into the new image - that is Forge. Moth would be to lose parts of yourself because you are lost and want to be something else - doesn't matter who or what.

About Forge (and its usefulness): probably either the difference in valuating things, or you just supplemented it with different principles. It's indeed by no means irreplaceable. Any obstacle can always solved by alternative aspect, and (in almost any playthrough) neither King Crucible (who bith solves the problem of the Hunters and greatly eases the expeditions) nor the Peacock Door are mandatory, by no means they are, and I don't even mention the Frangiclave. But it can be very much useful.

permeakra said:
"It is unstoppable in the face of adversity, and its followers are often characterized by relentless cheerfulness and obsessive determination." It's very much a Heart thing, or, at least, one of the ways it might manifest.

Here I would say that cheerfulness isn't necessary happiness. Like, yes, you might continue to smile, but keyword here (and Heart's work) is "continue", and smile is secondary. And that it's only Clovette who is constantly happy - other are determined, enthusiastic, but not happy. Besides, even if we will interpret it that way, I wouldn't say that the smile slashed to your face is a healthy thing.

Pittauro said:
and we don't actually KNOW if all the Hours are still alright. The fact the lores' influence on Equestria got weaker and somewhat supplanted by Harmony actually implies at least some of the Major Hours died (though, apparently. Birdy's favourite hour is still around to give us problems...)

It's possible that, right now, changing what a principle means/does might actually be easier than at any other time in history.

What I'm trying to say is, basically: This could be a second Litomachy, A second change of the guard.

I already mentioned a theory about the Master trying to groom us and the other inner advisors as possible Hour/Name replacements/followers.

Maybe, if we ascend high enough... we can change the lores a bit, nudge them just enough so they would be more... complementary, and not opposite, to Harmony and Equestria.

Probably also the Corrivalry is still here or at very least new generation has come, judging by remark that Comet Feet isn't at the point where he hasn't committed to the Hour yet.

But yes, now, of all times, change could be easier than ever. It would be pretty in the spirit of the Forge, to reshape the World as you see fit, into something kinder and fairer, wouldn't it?

Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

A bodhisattva, by definition, must die to move on.

Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator

Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator

There is always a greater fool

Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator

There is always a greater fool

Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator

There is always a greater fool

Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator

There is always a greater fool

Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator

There is always a greater fool

There is always a greater fool