YouTube finally bans extremist content on their platform

I'm glad Reddit chooses to intervene for the sake of public safety when their platform is being used to endorse vile behaviour to a truly vulnerable group like... cops. Yep.
Kind of reminds me of how McCarthy got shut down when he made the mistake of going after the military, rather than just terrorizing Hollywood liberals. Reactionaries are tolerated by the establishment because their radical rhetoric is mostly targeted at outgroups the establishment stomps on anyways. Progressives and leftists by comparison explicitly aim most of their rhetoric at the establishment itself, which means they must be crushed and censored by any means necessary.
 
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For me this is how i view the efforts to deal with this problem. I'll use a quote. attributed to Loyd Geroge. "I fear a Weak Germany more than a strong one. A weak Germany will fall pray to the first demagogue who comes promising to restore German pride." The reason is when we tear a group down too much when we deny them dignity of any kind we make them so deteriorate they cling to any hope. Those who maybe are frustrated by the things they see that make them out to be bad when their not may have begun to do this and by silencing opposing opinions we give them no outlet. SO they get fearful and cling to the first one who says. "We understand you, we will help restore your voice." This is not of course how it will go, we know this but in those seriously hopeless moments they will believe the lie.
 
Considering you're quoting a Nazi apologist in a thread about hate speech, I'm not all that inclined to listen to your argument buddy.

Source, in the interest of not just blindly quoting a Wikipedia article (even if that article has multiple other sources of its own listed).
 
Violation of Rule 4: Do not be Disruptive
Considering you're quoting a Nazi apologist in a thread about hate speech, I'm not all that inclined to listen to your argument buddy.

Source, in the interest of not just blindly quoting a Wikipedia article (even if that article has multiple other sources of its own listed).

He is? hmm never heard of that but no I dont apologize for nazi's I jsut dont want them to be given room to grow, but if you feel you dont want to talk then they already beat you. You have become them. So congrats you have handed them their victory nazi sympathizer.
 
This is the standard Paradox of Tolerance argument. It's been rebuked a thousand times.

Refusing to tolerate bigots doesn't make someone a bigot.


Per the paradox of tolerance: tolerance as a concept, entails accepting things which we don't like (i.e., bad beliefs, even beliefs that offend us or which we consider unethical). However, unlimited tolerance allows the restriction of the right to tolerance, entailing the end of tolerance. Ergo, we must set a boundary on the extent to which intolerance can be tolerated to have any kind of tolerance. However, this isn't "all intolerance" as that likewise means you're no longer tolerant. Rather, fundamentally grounding this in tolerance requires that this be at the point where it "turn(s) out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument" that is, where people refuse to accept challenge to their beliefs.

That is, the standard paradox of tolerance argument is "people who reject unlimited public debate must be suppressed by force." Translating it to white supremacy, the argument you're quoting suggests that racism should be tolerated, albeit not welcomed or accepted, but those who would suppress it or denounce the right of racists to debate their views must be suppressed to have a free and open society. It is fundamentally and patently absurd to use the short version "intolerance of intolerance" language to justify strong censorship.

There are a number of serious philosophical and sociological arguments against open or unlimited free speech that deserve to be taken seriously. Please, for about the thousandth time, stop blindly grounding your argument in about literally the only one that, actually read, would favor your banning more than the banning of many white supremacists.
 
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This is the standard Paradox of Tolerance argument. It's been rebuked a thousand times.

Refusing to tolerate bigots doesn't make someone a bigot.


I am not one but you dont wish to talk to me so apparently your issue is not with nazis it is with people you disagree with. I hate bigotry because it is a death sentence for me. It means my rights can come under fire very fast and very easily.
 
Not my claim my claim is they like it cause they get to claim martyrdom

They prefer material victories to moral ones.

and if you feel you have the right to silence people your no better.

See, that's where I disagree. Wanting to silence Nazis absolutely makes me better than Nazis.

That is, the standard paradox of tolerance argument is "people who reject unlimited public debate must be suppressed by force."

No, not "people who reject unlimited public debate" are not the intolerant. The intolerant in this formulation are those who spread hate and prejudice. I thought that was quite clear.
 
No, not "people who reject unlimited public debate" are not the intolerant. The intolerant in this formulation are those who spread hate and prejudice. I thought that was quite clear.

You are citing an existing argument as a grounding for this assertion instead of making your own "the paradox of tolerance" is a specific thing. "Intolerance of intolerance.." or other paraphrases are a specific shorthand for that same argument. The intolerance in that argument that you use as a shorthand to declare things settled are those who refuse rationale discourse. If you don't like it, use an argument that actually supports your position. There are a number of good ones.
 
The intolerance in that argument that you use as a shorthand to declare things settled are those who refuse rationale discourse.

Haven't seen it used that way myself, but that's not whom I meant.

The way I usually see it formulated is less about discourse and more about action. The ones to have their rights abrogated are those who try to trespass on the rights of others. It's a principle similar to jailing a kidnapper.
 
You are citing an existing argument as a grounding for this assertion instead of making your own "the paradox of tolerance" is a specific thing. "Intolerance of intolerance.." or other paraphrases are a specific shorthand for that same argument. The intolerance in that argument that you use as a shorthand to declare things settled are those who refuse rationale discourse. If you don't like it, use an argument that actually supports your position. There are a number of good ones.

Perhaps you can enlighten me. I am familiar with the quoted arguement paradox but it isint what I am trying to make, I understand some things cant go unchallenged or unhindered we cant let people go around shouting for example. "I am going to kill all of X people" and not respond. But I am saying when we start labeling ANYBODY we disagree with as nazi's or anything else it creates problems. And human psychology is not 10% rational so the may make an emotional decision. which may be a bad one.
 
The way I usually see it formulated is less about discourse and more about action. The ones to have their rights abrogated are those who try to trespass on the rights of others. It's a principle similar to jailing a kidnapper.

There's a difference between a kidnapper and a kidnapper apologist, the latter of whom most would probably object to jailing, and many, would object to censoring.

There is, similarly, a distinction between someone who advocates terrible beliefs and someone actively employed in implimenting those beliefs at a policy or action-level. For example, relatively few people would object to the claim that Charles Murray is a massive racist. However, that doesn't entail that we must censor The Bell Curve to maintain a free and open society.

There is a sense of the term action where the distinction between words and acts becomes unclear. However, that doesn't entail we treat any formulation of an idea as equivalent to that idea's implementation.

Perhaps you can enlighten me. I am familiar with the quoted arguement paradox but it isint what I am trying to make, I understand some things cant go unchallenged or unhindered we cant let people go around shouting for example. "I am going to kill all of X people" and not respond. But I am saying when we start labeling ANYBODY we disagree with as nazi's or anything else it creates problems. And human psychology is not 10% rational so the may make an emotional decision. which may be a bad one.

1. I was responding to Septimus. They used the argument by name and I quoted them.
2. We're literally in a thread about white supremacists though. This is a thing that happens(warning: swastikas, but it's also German public broadcasting, so I assume it's going to be fine for most), so arguing about whether the Nazis we're talking about aren't actually Nazis isn't a great look. What non-Nazis do you think are being intentionally accused of being Nazis exactly?
3. Why are emotional decisions bad and rational ones good? More to the point, you seem to assume the difference favors your specific views, but this really only follows because you've created a chain of suppositions about things that could happen without examining the totality of such possibilities or actually citing serious psychology as to why yours is more grounded.
4. You might want to reference it. It's a much more compelling argument against censorship than literally quoting actual Nazi apologists.
 
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Not my claim my claim is they like it cause they get to claim martyrdom and if you feel you have the right to silence people your no better.

"It's not what I'm saying but it's exactly what I'm saying" is what I read. You are saying that silencing bigots make you no better than bigots, and that's flat out wrong. You may be right about them claiming martyrdom, but that's just PR.
 
Sorry for the late reply, I was asleep. Anyway:

He is? hmm never heard of that but no I dont apologize for nazi's I jsut dont want them to be given room to grow, but if you feel you dont want to talk then they already beat you. You have become them. So congrats you have handed them their victory nazi sympathizer.
Okay, calling me a Nazi sympathizer just because I didn't feel like you were making a sound argument based on the fact that you quoted a Nazi apologist in order to argue the fact that "Nazis are just oppressed and if we continue to censor them they'll just get more Nazis" is seriously a disingenuous assumption to make. Just because I disagree with you or call you out on a bad argument it doesn't mean I'm automatically a Nazi sympathizer or anything like that. Like, dude, how do you expect anyone to take your argument seriously if you throw around insults like that as a "ha! gotcha" the moment you see what you percieve as a slip up???
"It's not what I'm saying but it's exactly what I'm saying" is what I read. You are saying that silencing bigots make you no better than bigots, and that's flat out wrong. You may be right about them claiming martyrdom, but that's just PR.
Also, this. Yeah, sure, some people might fall for the whole "theyre restricting our freedom of speech :,(" thing but that number will be very small and ultimately, silencing the views that advocate for literal genocide of every person that isn't white is a much better way to stop those Nazis from forming than continuing to give them a platform.

I honestly don't see how you think that telling a person who says "hey we should kill all people of color lol =)" to shut up and then taking away their platform makes you just as bad as the person advocating for ethnic cleansing. Just saying.
 
For me this is how i view the efforts to deal with this problem. I'll use a quote. attributed to Loyd Geroge. "I fear a Weak Germany more than a strong one. A weak Germany will fall pray to the first demagogue who comes promising to restore German pride." The reason is when we tear a group down too much when we deny them dignity of any kind we make them so deteriorate they cling to any hope. Those who maybe are frustrated by the things they see that make them out to be bad when their not may have begun to do this and by silencing opposing opinions we give them no outlet. SO they get fearful and cling to the first one who says. "We understand you, we will help restore your voice." This is not of course how it will go, we know this but in those seriously hopeless moments they will believe the lie.
This makes no sense whatsoever. The people being "silenced" are already Nazi shitheads. If not being allowed to watch great replacement and Holocaust denial videos bothers you, you're already a garbage human.
 
This makes no sense whatsoever. The people being "silenced" are already Nazi shitheads. If not being allowed to watch great replacement and Holocaust denial videos bothers you, you're already a garbage human.

But is removing those videos from youtube really effective at curbing the spread of these extremist ideologies ? One thing I find interesting is that it seems like almost every unmoderated platform leans hard right. Discords, forums, comment sections, ingame chat etc, as long as there is not an active enforcement and people are free to express themselves, opinions will gravitate towards "politically incorrect" side of the spectrum. What does that say about true public opinion. If you have to ban their videos what does that say about their public appeal. If there was not a large part of the population that agreed with at least some of the concerns that alt-right raises, their ideas would not be spreading so effectively.
 
But is removing those videos from youtube really effective at curbing the spread of these extremist ideologies ? One thing I find interesting is that it seems like almost every unmoderated platform leans hard right. Discords, forums, comment sections, ingame chat etc, as long as there is not an active enforcement and people are free to express themselves, opinions will gravitate towards "politically incorrect" side of the spectrum. What does that say about true public opinion. If you have to ban their videos what does that say about their public appeal. If there was not a large part of the population that agreed with at least some of the concerns that alt-right raises, their ideas would not be spreading so effectively.

What that says is that the far right is good at seducing people who don't leave their mom's basement :V
 
But is removing those videos from youtube really effective at curbing the spread of these extremist ideologies ? One thing I find interesting is that it seems like almost every unmoderated platform leans hard right. Discords, forums, comment sections, ingame chat etc, as long as there is not an active enforcement and people are free to express themselves, opinions will gravitate towards "politically incorrect" side of the spectrum. What does that say about true public opinion. If you have to ban their videos what does that say about their public appeal. If there was not a large part of the population that agreed with at least some of the concerns that alt-right raises, their ideas would not be spreading so effectively.
Of course bigotry is appealing to lots of people. Being popular doesn't give something moral weight or legitimacy, it just means it is emotionally satisfying to a lot of people. And a lot of entitled white man children are angry they are no longer being catered to quite so totally by society. This is why the "market place of ideas" is garbage.

Places that are unmoderated also tend to drive off decent people, because they get tired of listening to bigoted bullshit and go somewhere else, so you get echo chambers full of shitty people and people to apathetic or ignorant to care. The apathetic and ignorant are easy prey for all sorts of recruitment.

Silencing them on Youtube helps, but it isn't sufficient. Fortunately, we don't have to stop at Youtube.
 
Related, I think RPG.net also recently banned support of Trump on their forums, specifically since Trump is a white supremacist who spreads his hate speech.

False edit: ah, yep, I found the announcement post in question. There you go. I forgot that this happened, but since I remembered and it's in the same vein as the rest of this thread I'm putting it here.

Just goes to show that you literally don't have to tolerate any of this bullshit, anywhere, on any platform. YouTube is a major start when it comes to larger platforms, and I hope that other sites such as Twitter and elsewhere may eventually follow. But....considering Twitter's past history with its moderation (ie, writing an algorithm to get rid of Nazis and then not using it since it would get rid of politicians as well, which honestly, they should have gone through with it anyway since even if you're a politician that doesn't somehow make you more valid than a regular civilian saying shit), it's not very likely.
 
The only extremists here are Youtube with their own totalitarian censorship.

They can try. People will just leave the platform for better places, which is certainly in the horizon if this keeps up, as it should.

Free speech protects speech you hate, not what you like. People need to learn this.
Free speech doesn't require private entities to give assholes a platform. People need to learn this.
 
Listen buddy, if censoring slurs, racism, and other horrid shit is totalitarian, then I guess I'm a tyrant. :D

Also answer my question. Where are these little snowflakes gonna run off to? Stormfront?
 
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