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Worm: what *do* Master/Stranger Protocols look like anyway?

RazorSmile

RazorSmile

ROB Used To Be A Knife Missile
Not having seen a similar dedicated thread, I am making one for the express purpose of detailed speculation on what Master/Stranger protocols as referenced in the superhero web series Worm (and its deluge of fanfics) might actually look like.

For those who haven't read Worm, Strangers are any superhuman with powers that promote stealth/infiltration applications such as invisibility or forgettability. Masters are mind-controllers, body-controllers, animal controllers and so on. Surprisingly often, there is some overlap between the two.

Changers aka shapeshifters get lumped in with strangers seeing as they are just as much of a security nightmare as well.

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In canon, we saw "eyes on the lightning" an anti-stranger protocol used by the Dragon's Teeth wherein they wear camera over their eyes and can *only* see the camera feed.

The Undersiders own "go dark" protocol appeared to consist of Grue blacking out everything while Imp goes live with her own power.

Aside from these examples, there's actually very little detail in both canon and fic about how these protocols work in real detail. MRIs and DNA checks at every doorway? Automated gait analysis? Rolling password systems?
 
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For most hero or villain group, I imagine it involves very large pool of piddle on the floor.
 
One the webcomic Grrlpower used- pressure sensors on floors. Which then sets off security, which then requires giving a live person a code to turn off (or, presumably, could use the code *first*. Incoming person was a teleporter in the comic). So invisibility or forgetfulness wouldn't work there.

Live people needed to open and close doors works against a surprisingly large amount of stealth powers.


Now, Masters, that's much harder indeed, especially if they can make someone use codes they know (f they merely body puppet, well, lack of codes get them, see above). You need a way to detect if someone is being controlled...
 
I imagine (for the PRT) a facility lockdown until an all clear from an uncompromised 3rd party (gonna argue New York for Brockton). What this entails is that until Dragon or someone in New York/other PRT base reviews all data from before the lockdown, the doors won't open and you need a Brute to get through them and the windows. This works for Masters.
For Strangers: If there is anything above a certain mass (say an insect) moving in an area and sensors pick it up, everything is covered in containment foam until released.

How groups like New Wave or others without obvious Thinkers deal with it, no idea.
 
They stick the suspected Mastered individual or Stranger into a room with a large person, who proceeds to interrogate them.

"Are you sure you're you? Are you sure you're not someone else? Do you really think someone's not inside your head twisting your thoughts? Are you really sure?"

This proceeds for several hours, and is enough to drive any Stranger or Mastered individual to losing their patience.
 
Sir Bill said:
They stick the suspected Mastered individual or Stranger into a room with a large person, who proceeds to interrogate them.

"Are you sure you're you? Are you sure you're not someone else? Do you really think someone's not inside your head twisting your thoughts? Are you really sure?"

This proceeds for several hours, and is enough to drive any Stranger or Mastered individual to losing their patience.
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No, you see - if they keep calm the whole time, they're clearly an infiltrator, since no normal person would.
 
The generalized Master powerset:
The ability to control or alter the minds/behaviors of other things. Not limited to animate objects.
This means that Master rating essentially work the same as Enchantment (with low levels of Divination and Transfiguration) in D&D magic terms. (I've done a lot of optimization in D&D, so I'm using D&D metaphors here to help show my work.)
The generalized Stranger powerset:
The ability to change the perceptions and/or behaviors of individuals in their presence. Different from Masters in that the stranger generally does not have direct control, but rather has a static 'AOE' effect on everyone.
This is much more like enchantment-based auras in D&D.
So, Master/Stranger protocols looks a lot like attempting to deal with all possible attacks from hostiles enchanters in D&D.
You need to worry about:
Obvious/direct mind control
Indirect/progammatic mind control
Emotional manipulation
Invisibility (and potentially intangibility)
Imposters (apparently perfect and/or inherently unquestionable)
Halucinations (illusions of all kinds)
Things it should also cover, but doesn't:
Remote Viewing (a master power whose effect is to piggyback someone else's senses - ex. Taylor, Regent, Cherish, but without any control over the subject)
Mimics (animate objects hiding in plain sight - no examples of this, but it's only a matter of time in that setting until your filing cabinets start spying on you...)
Really Good Hackers (they were sooo lucky Dragon was a good guy)

So, Master/Stranger protocols almost certainly involved:
Individualized Passwords, strict enforcement of 'you should not be here', constant monitoring of everyone for unexpected behaviour, logged activities for everyone, interviews about said activities (You don't remember that you went into the documents room at 9pm? Oh dear.), strict scheduling, compartmentalization of all data (everything, and I mean everything, becomes need-to-know), and independent psychological evaluation.
I'm sure that with tinker-tech, you can do even more, but those are the 'simple' and 'mundane' practices which would be most effective.
 
kestrel404 said:
The generalized Master powerset:
The ability to control or alter the minds/behaviors of other things. Not limited to animate objects.
This means that Master rating essentially work the same as Enchantment (with low levels of Divination and Transfiguration) in D&D magic terms. (I've done a lot of optimization in D&D, so I'm using D&D metaphors here to help show my work.)
The generalized Stranger powerset:
The ability to change the perceptions and/or behaviors of individuals in their presence. Different from Masters in that the stranger generally does not have direct control, but rather has a static 'AOE' effect on everyone.
This is much more like enchantment-based auras in D&D.
So, Master/Stranger protocols looks a lot like attempting to deal with all possible attacks from hostiles enchanters in D&D.
You need to worry about:
Obvious/direct mind control
Indirect/progammatic mind control
Emotional manipulation
Invisibility (and potentially intangibility)
Imposters (apparently perfect and/or inherently unquestionable)
Halucinations (illusions of all kinds)
Things it should also cover, but doesn't:
Remote Viewing (a master power whose effect is to piggyback someone else's senses - ex. Taylor, Regent, Cherish, but without any control over the subject)
Mimics (animate objects hiding in plain sight - no examples of this, but it's only a matter of time in that setting until your filing cabinets start spying on you...)
Really Good Hackers (they were sooo lucky Dragon was a good guy)

So, Master/Stranger protocols almost certainly involved:
Individualized Passwords, strict enforcement of 'you should not be here', constant monitoring of everyone for unexpected behaviour, logged activities for everyone, interviews about said activities (You don't remember that you went into the documents room at 9pm? Oh dear.), strict scheduling, compartmentalization of all data (everything, and I mean everything, becomes need-to-know), and independent psychological evaluation.
I'm sure that with tinker-tech, you can do even more, but those are the 'simple' and 'mundane' practices which would be most effective.
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Also remote monitoring of the situation. Nice Guy could beat all of the above, but his powers don't work on anyone too far away.
 
Oh, here is one- have you own Master. Have them use their powers to compel people to say if they're controlled/to act as if they were not.

Aka the Gargoyles solution. Goliath is technically mind controlled through 80% of the series- he is just under orders to act as though he is not and to ignore all mind control orders.
 
Q99 said:
Oh, here is one- have you own Master. Have them use their powers to compel people to say if they're controlled/to act as if they were not.

Aka the Gargoyles solution. Goliath is technically mind controlled through 80% of the series- he is just under orders to act as though he is not and to ignore all mind control orders.
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99%. It was basically the episode right after the pilot movie.
 
Necro yes but it *is* my thread so woohoo, I can do that.

Anyway, Nugar wrote a fic (yes, that Nugar, so you know it's good) where M/S protocols involve asking the potentially Mastered subject bizarre questions for a long period of time, presumably to see if they react normally (i.e. by getting confused and/or frustrated and/or angry), if they remain impossibly calm and keep answering or if they find themselves utterly unable to answer) and/or if all parts of their brain light up properly under fMRI.

Seems legit so I thought I'd throw it in.
 
RazorSmile said:
Necro yes but it *is* my thread so woohoo, I can do that.

Anyway, Nugar wrote a fic (yes, that Nugar, so you know it's good) where M/S protocols involve asking the potentially Mastered subject bizarre questions for a long period of time, presumably to see if they react normally (i.e. by getting confused and/or frustrated and/or angry), if they remain impossibly calm and keep answering or if they find themselves utterly unable to answer) and/or if all parts of their brain light up properly under fMRI.

Seems legit so I thought I'd throw it in.
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Makes sense. Might have to use that next time.
 
"You're in a desert walking along in the sand when all of the sudden you look down, and you see a tortoise, crawling toward you. You reach down, you flip the tortoise over on its back. The tortoise lays on its back, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over, but it can't, not without your help. But you're not helping. Why is that? "
 
Pretty sure we saw the edge of it when Weld was chatting with Regent-Controlled Sophia- Chat with the person amiably and slip in a few things that are wrong, see if that trips them up.

There's probably more in depth stuff for stronger master/stranger powers, but it seems like that worked pretty well for their purposes that time.
 
El-Ariarah, excellent fic by the way, mentions aspects of the m/s protocols relating to long term infiltration. PRT directors are kept away from any individual who has or is suspected to have human affecting master powers or whose powers are unknown (until they are trusted?). New protectorate/wards are under strict observation while on duty and are not given full access to sensitive information or systems for a while after recruitment.
 
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A bunch of Strangers could get caught out by motion/IR/bio-bullshit sensors. If it was possible to replicate Cap'n Edgy's communicator trick on recordable media, you'd have every Stranger dead to rights.

Mind control Masters might be able to get stuffed via the Manton Effect, a la Magfuckingneto's bucket hat. Also, having coded and/or incomplete information given to any one link in the chain, requiring redundancy that a Master couldn't replicate solo. Again, Cap'n Edgy's communicator bullshit catches any and every Master who has to work on site due to their passengers. Chevalier has a similar thing with his HUD.

In general, tech covering meat and using cape bullshit to beat cape bullshit.
 
FourthWall said:
A bunch of Strangers could get caught out by motion/IR/bio-bullshit sensors. If it was possible to replicate Cap'n Edgy's communicator trick on recordable media, you'd have every Stranger dead to rights.

Mind control Masters might be able to get stuffed via the Manton Effect, a la Magfuckingneto's bucket hat. Also, having coded and/or incomplete information given to any one link in the chain, requiring redundancy that a Master couldn't replicate solo. Again, Cap'n Edgy's communicator bullshit catches any and every Master who has to work on site due to their passengers. Chevalier has a similar thing with his HUD.

In general, tech covering meat and using cape bullshit to beat cape bullshit.
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Cap'n Edgy? I'm not getting the reference, and a quick search wasn't illuminating.
 
Well, let's go over the known weaknesses of a couple different Masters and Strangers (Ones that actually apply here anyway):

Imp: Can be fairly easily overcome by viewing everything back through a electronic feed or entirely automated defenses. Other than that, pretty much unbeatable by conventional human means.

Nice Guy: Besides outranging him as mentioned above, there's also the shoot everything solution. Basically, give a team orders to shoot everyone who isn't already visibly part of their team/organization in an area, probably nonlethally, thus bypassing Nice Guy's non threat powers.

Regent: Passwords, passwords, passwords. Additionally, asking the potentially mastered individual questions only they could know, trying to trip them up as Weld did.

Cherish: Besides staying out of her range? Watch out for people acting erratically, and possibly training to dampen/overcome one's emotions. There are no willpower checks in Worm, but i'm reasonably sure Cherish's power isn't such that she can force everyone in a group to instantly shoot themselves or throw down their guns or something similarly drastic if she's already in fight and those people are actively trying to ignore their compromised emotions, so such training might buy crucial seconds.

August Prince: Containment. I'm pretty sure active measures like containment foam or even like, a cage, wouldn't work, but there's always playing keep away and holing up in locked down facilities. He is just a preteen outside of his power.

Pretender: Well, assuming he doesn't get the same memories as his host body (I think this is safe, since he didn't inherit Alexandria's fighting talents IIRC), same thing as Regent. Passwords, trip him up, lock down the base, etc.

Echidna Clones: Assuming they don't have easily distinguishing mutations or are obviously deranged, engage them in conversation and ask them about things their originator holds dear. Their inverted cares should become apparent quickly.

Heartbreaker/Teacher: Not sure besides just questioning people and seeing if any of them are sympathetic to heartbreaker or Teacher.

Nyx: Test all environments and people in area by some method, possibly tinker tech, or just shooting it full of bullets and seeing if it dissipates into gas.

Basically, i'd think there'd be a basic level of passwords and maintaining formation/cohesion between teams to prevent anyone from disappearing and being replaced, possibly camera overwatch for better equipped teams, but mostly it just depends on whom they think they'll be facing.
 
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greendoor said:
Well, let's go over the known weaknesses of a couple different Masters and Strangers (Ones that actually apply here anyway):

Imp: Can be fairly easily overcome by viewing everything back through a electronic feed or entirely automated defenses. Other than that, pretty much unbeatable by conventional human means.

Nice Guy: Besides outranging him as mentioned above, there's also the shoot everything solution. Basically, give a team orders to shoot everyone who isn't already visibly part of their team/organization in an area, probably nonlethally, thus bypassing Nice Guy's non threat powers.

Regent: Passwords, passwords, passwords. Additionally, asking the potentially mastered individual questions only they could know, trying to trip them up as Weld did.

Cherish: Besides staying out of her range? Watch out for people acting erratically, and possibly training to dampen/overcome one's emotions. There are no willpower checks in Worm, but i'm reasonably sure Cherish's power isn't such that she can force everyone in a group to instantly shoot themselves or throw down their guns or something similarly drastic if she's already in fight and those people are actively trying to ignore their compromised emotions, so such training might buy crucial seconds.

August Prince: Containment. I'm pretty sure active measures like containment foam or even like, a cage, wouldn't work, but there's always playing keep away and holing up in locked down facilities. He is just a preteen outside of his power.

Pretender: Well, assuming he doesn't get the same memories as his host body (I think this is safe, since he didn't inherit Alexandria's fighting talents IIRC), same thing as Regent. Passwords, trip him up, lock down the base, etc.

Echidna Clones: Assuming they don't have easily distinguishing mutations or are obviously deranged, engage them in conversation and ask them about things their originator holds dear. Their inverted cares should become apparent quickly.

Heartbreaker/Teacher: Not sure besides just questioning people and seeing if any of them are sympathetic to heartbreaker or Teacher.

Nyx: Test all environments and people in area by some method, possibly tinker tech, or just shooting it full of bullets and seeing if it dissipates into gas.

Basically, i'd think there'd be a basic level of passwords and maintaining formation/cohesion between teams to prevent anyone from disappearing and being replaced, possibly camera overwatch for better equipped teams, but mostly it just depends on whom they think they'll be facing.
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Imp can't be overcome that way. Everyone, everyone, forgets her. Range outside of a city has not been tested.
Automated systems will do it, but automated systems can be subverted or redirected against your own personnel under the right conditions. You need backups and redundancies and limits on access. The possibility of wireless access for these systems should not be allowed.

Nice guy is spot on, add automated systems.

Regent is spot on.

Cherish CAN force those things. 'Seconds' is right, and fairly ineffective seconds at that.

August Prince. Use automated systems.

Pretender is spot on.

The rest seem weird or insufficient.


While plans for individual masters, strangers, thinkers, and changers are solid choices, they don't fall under the purview of the more generalized m/s protocols.
 
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Then there's having to keep your facilities entirely bug free, figuring out where the heck Coil sourced his body doubles so that you can train your people to not have their passwords and conversational habits intuited by Tattletale, keeping Labyrinth from redefining reality to one where your security cameras only get Mexican soap operas, making sure that Bonesaw hasn't used your people's skins to hide the fact that the Nine are in your break room, preventing conventional efforts to stubborn your trusted personnel, getting Eidolon to run your security so that Contessa can't walk through it backwards on her hands blindfolded...


Basically no matter how paranoid you are, it isn't going to be enough, because if nothing else an infiltrator will make your security forces fail your elaborate tests until everyone is under M/S lockdown or guarding those who are until they can casually walk in the door.
 
Once you reach sufficiently superpower, the only counter is other superpowers. Whether this is actual supers or supertech is irrelevant.
 
Tactical Tunic said:
Imp can't be overcome that way. Everyone, everyone, forgets her. Range outside of a city has not been tested.
Automated systems will do it, but automated systems can be subverted or redirected against your own personnel under the right conditions. You need backups and redundancies and limits on access. The possibility of wireless access for these systems should not be allowed.
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Cough Dragon cough.
 
consequences said:
Then there's having to keep your facilities entirely bug free, figuring out where the heck Coil sourced his body doubles so that you can train your people to not have their passwords and conversational habits intuited by Tattletale, keeping Labyrinth from redefining reality to one where your security cameras only get Mexican soap operas, making sure that Bonesaw hasn't used your people's skins to hide the fact that the Nine are in your break room, preventing conventional efforts to stubborn your trusted personnel, getting Eidolon to run your security so that Contessa can't walk through it backwards on her hands blindfolded...


Basically no matter how paranoid you are, it isn't going to be enough, because if nothing else an infiltrator will make your security forces fail your elaborate tests until everyone is under M/S lockdown or guarding those who are until they can casually walk in the door.
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No defense is ever total, the goal is to have a good enough defense that you can alter things on the fly and at least mitigate your weaknesses.

After all, there are only a few dozen capes around a city at any point, and you often have advanced warning.
 
The proper answer to enemy mind control is to mind control the affected individual right back to normal. /FTL
(Odds the PRT have a powerful master on payroll specifically for deprogramming mastered individuals anyone?)

The issue is one of identification.
 
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