What's the most Cringeworthy take on Actual History/Archeology you've ever read?

There were just between 500 and 3000 Europeans and between some 3000 and 15 000 Colonial troops to rule/exploit/administer an area 3.5x the size of Texas. These were also spread unevenly with something like half of all these people in the Western 10% of the country leaving just the other half for the remaining 90%.

Currently Texas has 140 000 police officers, and despite them having cars and helicopters at their disposal, it is considered barely enough. Now imagine the officer count gets cut to 14 000. Now imagine these 14 000 police officers also having to cover not only Texas, but New Mexico, Utah, Arizona, Nevada and half of California as well. On foot. It would be a physical impossiblitly.
Okay, but again, what is the point you are trying to argue with this?

Is this 'the Belgians couldn't have killed all those people because there weren't enough Belgians, so there can't have been that many people that died'?
 
We should have accurate numbers as best as possible. If someone claimed that Communism exterminated half a Billion people - he/she would be obviously exaggerating because the most accurate number would be closer to 100 Million. Doesnt mean that Communism is not the most evil mass murdering ideology in all of human history, it just means to correct obvious historical inaccuracies.
Doesn't the Black Book of Communism literally count Russians killed by the Nazis to get to 100 million deaths?
 
Its objectively impossible to know that. First census was in 1921. There are like 100 different estimates of the population size by the late 19th century.
I do not think it is "objectively impossible" to know the population of a region half a century before its first recorded census, at least by the standard of what "known population" means to historians, which acknowledges a significant margin of error.

What, exactly, are the range of estimates you're talking about here? What do you think the true answer "probably" was?

Well, no point in trying to convince you otherwise then.
So let me get this straight. Are you saying that you do believe that history scholarship done in the 1970s and 1980s can or should override scholarship done since the year 2000, even if the newer scholarship has advantages like "supported by actual archaeological evidence rather than being pulled out of a hat" or "the historians actually bothered to learn the local languages and ask questions in them," which is often if not always the case?

I'm not saying that your favorite old man is necessarily wrong without reviewing his arguments (which you have made no attempt to relay to me). What I'm saying is that it is very commonly the case that a seemingly "authoritative" treatment done by a scientist or historian who peaked half a century ago will turn out to be simply wrong in the light of information that was becoming available in their day, let alone information that has become available since then. It's happened a lot.

There were just between 500 and 3000 Europeans and between some 3000 and 15 000 Colonial troops to rule/exploit/administer an area 3.5x the size of Texas. These were also spread unevenly with something like half of all these people in the Western 10% of the country leaving just the other half for the remaining 90%.

Currently Texas has 140 000 police officers, and despite them having cars and helicopters at their disposal, it is considered barely enough. Now imagine the officer count gets cut to 14 000. Now imagine these 14 000 police officers also having to cover not only Texas, but New Mexico, Utah, Arizona, Nevada and half of California as well. On foot. It would be a physical impossiblitly.
The counterbalance is:

Now, imagine that the 14,000 police officers don't actually care about preventing, punishing, or even noticing any crimes except those committed against senior government officials, that they are legally entitled or even encouraged to kill people whenever they want, that they are free to take or destroy whatever property they wish, and that they own the vast majority of the firearms in the territory. Further imagine that much of the population is concentrated along river lines that the "police" command by having steam-powered gunboats while everyone else is using rafts and canoes.

Obviously, the 14,000 gunmen cannot maintain what we would think of as a full administrative state throughout the vast territory they "rule." What they CAN do is kick down the door of any single person or any single organized center of resistance to their rule and simply murder everyone involved. Their command of transportation allows them to split up into very small groups that can pillage population centers without consequence or just routinely travel through an area, encountering multiple villages a day and murdering people in each village as they go. Every day. For years. While there are places it would be unmanageably difficult for them to reach because of how remote they are, the places that are most heavily settled are nearly always going to be the ones that are easiest to reach- the ones along the rivers, as mentioned.

And that is how an empire asserts colonial rule over a vast territory with a small number of colonial troops. Overwhelmingly greater firepower, nearly unlimited willingness to make bloody examples of people, and the total destruction of native institutions not controlled by the colonials.
 
The first census was in 1921 not 1924. Only Hochschild claims that it counted 10 Million. Other numbers are 6.5 Million 7.2 Million and 8.5 Million.

And the estimates are pretty meaningless. "Yeah totaly half of the population perished. I have no idea how many lived there before, but it was totally half"....
When there is a broad consensus by contemporary sources who could do straightforward things like "go to a specific town, count the people who lived there, compare to how many people lived there fifty years ago" at the time, a statement like "half the population died" becomes more relevant. It may be that the true figure was 35% or 65%. But in terms of a rough order of magnitude, that still puts us firmly into the territory of "millions of people were slaughtered out of Belgian greed for rubber" being a true thing to say.

The Millions number is the dubious claim. Inflated absurd claims should be corrected. And the evidence points to the fact that it was nowhere near 10 Million, possibly not even 1 Million. And there was a sleeping sickness epidemic that killed some 500 000 people in 1901 and 500 000 fell victim to the Spanish flu in 1919.
If we take the minimal population figure of 6.5 million, and imagine that those 'half the population' estimates by primary sources are in fact exaggerating by a factor of two, then the 6.5 million survivors must have been the originals of a population of over eight million. Since human populations usually do not decrease except to disasters or systemic mismanagement, the over two million net deaths in population decrease definitely mean that over one million surplus deaths must be explained.

This 100,000 figure you're getting for genocide denialism is the absurdity, and I suspect it could be disproved by literally counting the records of the colonial troops regarding how many dead bodies' severed hands they hacked off.

We should have accurate numbers as best as possible. If someone claimed that Communism exterminated half a Billion people - he/she would be obviously exaggerating because the most accurate number would be closer to 100 Million. Doesnt mean that Communism is not the most evil mass murdering ideology in all of human history, it just means to correct obvious historical inaccuracies.
It also counts Nazis killed by the Soviets, IIRC.

And Japanese soldiers killed by the KMT.
Tiredworker27, do you agree with the 'Black Book of Communism' that Wehrmacht soldiers invading the Soviet Union count as innocent victims of the 'evil murdering ideology' of communism?

Because I can think of a name for the political beliefs of the kind of person who would think that way, but you won't like it.
 
And there was a sleeping sickness epidemic that killed some 500 000 people in 1901 and 500 000 fell victim to the Spanish flu in 1919.
Epidemics don't appear out of the Aether, for a society to have big percentages of its populations die to plague (specially natives plagues like sleeping sickness) their healthcare methods must have been actively suppressed, whether by war, economic instability or just mass dieoffs otherwise unrelated to the plague.

In the Americas, per more recent historiography the largest dieoffs of indigenous population through disease didn't came to be until large scale warfare with colonists led to loss of good agricultural lands, loss of traditional economic activities and general loss of average fitness and health that accompanied it all.
 
In the Americas, per more recent historiography the largest dieoffs of indigenous population through disease didn't came to be until large scale warfare with colonists led to loss of good agricultural lands, loss of traditional economic activities and general loss of average fitness and health that accompanied it all.

Can you recc me a good source to read up on this? I'd been under the impression that the colonists were able to take that farmland so quickly *because* the natives had already been so badly ravaged by disease.
 
Can you recc me a good source to read up on this? I'd been under the impression that the colonists were able to take that farmland so quickly *because* the natives had already been so badly ravaged by disease.

First i shall cite Indian Slave Trade: The Rise of the English Empire in the American South, 1670-1717, by Alan Galley, who commented how during its first century of existance slavery in the american sout chiefly focused on the capture of the still very numerous natives of the american SouthEast, being imported more and more cheaply than black slaves, something that wouldnt be possible if the smallpox epidemic, which had been in the americas for more than a century now, killed nearly as much as some people say it did. Similarly it talks how this regular enslavement and warfare resulted in general refugee waves, politico-economic collapses, and all the nasty stuff you may imagine from it. Finally it adds that many of the most virulently lethal epidemics were as a result of the horrible conditions caused by general loss of land, refugee situations, as well as the state of slavery

To further this poinr of the effect of refugee situations i shall link this paper which deals with the effects on healthcare and fitness of refugee populations.

Other similar sources to Galley's work include Mapping the Mississippian Shatter Zone: The Colonial Indian Slave Trade and Regional Instability in the American South as well as Kelton's Epidemics and Enslavement: Biological Catastrophe in the Native Southeast 1492-1715

Other books and studies that deal with other areas of the Americas include

Acuna-Soto et al., (2002) "Megadrought and Megadeath in 16th Century Mexico"

Beck Chiefdoms, Collapse, and Coalescence in the Early American South

Calloway One Vast Winter Count: The Native American West before Lewis and Clark

Panich & Schneider, editors Indigenous Landscapes and Spanish Missions: New Perspectives from Archaeology and Ethnohistory

Sundstrom (1997) "Smallpox Used Them Up: References to Epidemic Disease in Northern Plains Winter Counts, 1714-1920."
 
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1. No It didnt. It counted POWs in Soviet hands. Especially those that died when the war was over.

2. Careful your hypocrisy and ideological apologetics is showing.

Wait wait wait hold on.

It counted prisoners of war who died in Soviet hands, *especially* the ones who died after the war?

As in, the book counts the latter deaths more than the earlier deaths?

How many mid-war POW deaths is each post-war POW death being counted as?
 
I'll say this, we are definitely having an exceedingly cringe-worthy take on actual history and archaeology brought up in this thread. It's not the one the poster thinks, but details, details.
 
Black Book of Communism also basically doubled to tripled the number of actual deaths in several areas, such as Ukrainian famines, Gulag deaths, and the total number who died in Mao's China.

When your history book gets retracted for remedial math errors, you know it's a shit historical source. To quote one poster from "AskHistorians": "it could only really be called an inflated count of people who died concurrently to communism, not because of it".
 
Careful your hypocrisy and ideological apologetics is showing.
Hm, maybe the one who's fervently swearing by the contents of a book of ideologically-motivated bad math and whose only posts in this thread and the alt-history version thereof are "I hate people who say colonialism did genocides" and "I hate timelines where the Nazis lose harder than IRL" shouldn't be calling others 'ideological apologetics,' just a thought?
 
[looks at Tiredworker27's avatar]

This is kind of a tangent, but there's a certain irony in trying to minimize colonial genocide kill counts while using a Vegeta avatar.

Actually on two levels. I know it's a digression, but I can't help but get some literary analysis in.

Because Vegeta, as a character, absolutely committed a bunch of colonialist genocides while working for Frieza, and nobody denies it. Now just the bare fact that this is true is one level of the irony. But there's a deeper level.

Because so far as I know, if you tried to go around weaseling about how Vegeta didn't actually blow up nearly as many millions of people as folks say he did, and Vegeta heard about it, Vegeta himself would be like "screw you, you calling me a wimp or something? I'm the prince of all saiyans, of course I rack up megadeath body counts!"

Because say what you will about Vegeta, and you should, as far as I can remember he doesn't try to deny the atrocities he himself committed. He's just an incredibly violent, competitive, and amoral person who's compelling as a character in no small part because he is nonetheless true to himself and his code. But the one thing he's not, not as I can remember him being portrayed, is trying to dodge responsibility. My mental image of Vegeta is of a guy saying roughly "yeah, yeah I did that shit, it was me blew up that planet, it was me let the monster transform into a more powerful state, it was me let an evil wizard brainwash me so I could get enough stronger to have another shot at my rival. Whatcha gonna do about it, only guy strong enough to take me to task is Goku."

...

So there's a sort of conflict between the use of an unapologetically genocidaire character who is nonetheless compelling and internally true to himself as a poster boy...

And the apologetica and efforts to erase responsibility on the part of historical genocidaires, an erasure of acknowledgement that the genocides happened.

Kind of a gap between the standard that makes the fictional character interesting despite being by any reasonable standard a bad person, and the standard that is actually applied in real life where it's all about avoiding admitting to anything.
 
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I am sharing some relevant threads from Ask Historians in the hope of providing some insight on Tiredworker27's original prompt and bringing the thread back to historical discussion.



PS:

Was Tiredworker27 somehow kicked off the site so rapidly? I can no longer see his posts and member profile.
 
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I am sharing some relevant threads from Ask Historians in the hope of providing some insight on Tiredworker27's original prompt and bringing the thread back to historical discussion.



PS:

Was Tiredworker27 somehow kicked off the site so rapidly? I can no longer see his posts and member profile.

I don't think I've ever seen someone get outright nuked off the site like that before. Might have been a sockpuppet account?
 
I am sharing some relevant threads from Ask Historians in the hope of providing some insight on Tiredworker27's original prompt and bringing the thread back to historical discussion.



PS:

Was Tiredworker27 somehow kicked off the site so rapidly? I can no longer see his posts and member profile.
I don't think I've ever seen someone get outright nuked off the site like that before. Might have been a sockpuppet account?
I believe they can bust out the spam filter for accounts of a hundred posts or less.
 
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