There is I think some debate about that in the modern research since I have seen a few suggestions that the original helots weren't necessarily treated that badly (nor really tended to rise up in revolt) and the "helots" as we we understand them today only really coming into existence and becoming a problem in their conquered territories once they expanded beyond their original base in Lakonia.
What would the actual effects of "Spartan"-like training be?
There is I think some debate about that in the modern research since I have seen a few suggestions that the original helots weren't necessarily treated that badly (nor really tended to rise up in revolt) and the "helots" as we we understand them today only really coming into existence and becoming a problem in their conquered territories once they expanded beyond their original base in Lakonia.
Spartakrod
Judeo-Spartacist Bolshevik-Kabbalist
- Location
- Sanctum Arcanorum
- Pronouns
- Fae/Faer/Faers/Faerself
That they were in the chains of slavery alone makes them sufferers of unacceptable oppression. Also a coming of age ritual that involved random murder is pretty emblematic of a horrific nightmare state.
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It's interesting that the Spartans are the ones that get all the credit in pop-culture for military skill when they didn't even come close to matching the accomplishments of Macedon. The reason I've always found this strange is that it's not as if Alexander the Great is a total unknown to the layman, or at least any more than Sparta itself is.
The war machine built by Philip and perfected by Alexander is orders of magnitude more impressive than the Spartans at the height of their power. Alexander and his childhood companions were raised to adulthood being instructed in everything from warfare and hunting to philosophy and medicine. The results were pretty good.
The war machine built by Philip and perfected by Alexander is orders of magnitude more impressive than the Spartans at the height of their power. Alexander and his childhood companions were raised to adulthood being instructed in everything from warfare and hunting to philosophy and medicine. The results were pretty good.
- Location
- Singapore
Tendency for great men?
I mean, people know of 'Alexander the great'. But the army is kinda overshadowed.
I mean, people know of 'Alexander the great'. But the army is kinda overshadowed.
Hykal94
Orange Estus Kitteh
- Location
- Firelink Shrine
It's a matter of historical illiteracy. The reason we know a thing or two about them is because we're a bunch of nerds on the Internet.
Sure Alexander's armies were far more impressive than the Spartans but remember, there was a time before 300 where people didn't know about them. If someone were to make a series or a movie about Alexander the Great or (insert your favorite historical general here) then yeah people would know be more aware.
Sure Alexander's armies were far more impressive than the Spartans but remember, there was a time before 300 where people didn't know about them. If someone were to make a series or a movie about Alexander the Great or (insert your favorite historical general here) then yeah people would know be more aware.
Spartakrod
Judeo-Spartacist Bolshevik-Kabbalist
- Location
- Sanctum Arcanorum
- Pronouns
- Fae/Faer/Faers/Faerself
I mean there was an Alexander the Great movie back in 2004 but like the other Greek movies from the early 00's it was forgotten.
Hykal94
Orange Estus Kitteh
- Location
- Firelink Shrine
It was also, supremely boring. I know, I watched it last year. Even as someone who likes Alexander, it's goddamn boring.
300 is fucking stupid but it's entertaining stupid.
That kind of real-world elite training is designed to push people as hard as can be done without breaking them, in order to strengthen and toughen them as much as possible.
Memetic "Spartan training" is based on the fallacy of "if some is good, a whole lot must be better"; the idea that if hard training creates elite soldiers, outright brutal training must create supermen. The reality is the opposite; since modern "elite" training already pushes people to the edge of their physical limits you'd just end up with a lot of crippled and dead people if you made it massively tougher.
Jonen C
F.M.D.G.
- Location
- Lincopense, Ostrogothia, Suecia
Spartan propaganda apparatus at work.
Remember that old bit of Laconic stoicism and wit?
Quoth Philip II: Should I come to Sparta as friend or foe?
Spartan response: "Neither."
Philip II: "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."
Spartan response: "If."
Militarily, the Macedonians may have them beat, but the Spartan Propaganda Apparatus Really Takes All.
Remember that old bit of Laconic stoicism and wit?
Quoth Philip II: Should I come to Sparta as friend or foe?
Spartan response: "Neither."
Philip II: "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."
Spartan response: "If."
Militarily, the Macedonians may have them beat, but the Spartan Propaganda Apparatus Really Takes All.
- Location
- Luton Airport
Which rather demonstrates how declined and irrelevant the Spartans were by the time of Phillip II, that he could (and did), just ignore them
Hykal94
Orange Estus Kitteh
- Location
- Firelink Shrine
YouTuber Invicta once made a video about the myths of Sparta and how they really weren't the hottest shit around and their military prowess while formidable at times is extremely inflated.
You can tell how salty Spartan fanboys are because of that 5.1k dislikes. How did Invicta made this video? Well he actually contacted u/Iphrikates aka Dr Roel Konijnendijk about it and you see how they bitch in the comments how these people with no PhDs in ancient Greekwarfare know better than .... the guy with a PhD in ancient Greek warfare.
Kinda pathetic really. If you want to military worship a real life military institute: first of all why the fuck would you do that and secondly you have the Romans and BDE Alexander for that.
You can tell how salty Spartan fanboys are because of that 5.1k dislikes. How did Invicta made this video? Well he actually contacted u/Iphrikates aka Dr Roel Konijnendijk about it and you see how they bitch in the comments how these people with no PhDs in ancient Greekwarfare know better than .... the guy with a PhD in ancient Greek warfare.
Kinda pathetic really. If you want to military worship a real life military institute: first of all why the fuck would you do that and secondly you have the Romans and BDE Alexander for that.
Romans are prone to the same sort of fanboyism. We know how they fought - good records, good examples of equipment - and what their limitatuons were. Unsurprisingly the Roman equipment matches with the tactics they say they used. Doesn't stop people from wanking hard about things one could do with the equipment if facing an opponent the Romans never did.
And again, the Romans being the side who could write and/or survived, they provided plenty of boasting material.
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Hykal94
Orange Estus Kitteh
- Location
- Firelink Shrine
The Roman fandom is a mixed bag for me because Roman civilisation is extremely interesting but dear lord do people have a ton of apologia for it.
Romans committed genocide. Romans were religiously intolerant. Roman imperialism also made the world a worse place in a lot of ways. It's stupid annoying.
- Location
- The Old Dominion
The closest thing history had a to a nice empire was the Persian empire especially under Cyrus the Great and his successors.
Humanity has been carving out empires since Sargon of Akkad founded the very first empire and empires do not arise peacefully but from a sea of blood and death. It is arises after they are formed and what they leave behind when they fall that truly shapes their legacy.
Going along that lines when it comes to the Romans I can't say the roman empire made the world a worse place for existing nor can I say the fall of either the western or eastern roman empires somehow made the world a better place.
Humanity has been carving out empires since Sargon of Akkad founded the very first empire and empires do not arise peacefully but from a sea of blood and death. It is arises after they are formed and what they leave behind when they fall that truly shapes their legacy.
Going along that lines when it comes to the Romans I can't say the roman empire made the world a worse place for existing nor can I say the fall of either the western or eastern roman empires somehow made the world a better place.
This isn't something that happened. Terror programs were not a rite of passage, but a duty of the spartan secret police
Spartan training did produce good results for a soldier in a couple of specific ways. As the linked reddit with dr konijnendijk it would accustom spartan youths to obeying their elders and superiors without question. I also warrant it would creat a sort of forced kin bonding that would be useful in a battlefield role
But the Spartans were good at the fightings because they did vastly complicated things like... fight in formation and have people whose job it were to lead smaller groups of mens. The other Greeks didn't see the need for such hoity toity tactics and relied on the good old disorganized blob of angry men running at you in a mass
- Location
- Singapore
One wonders why it took so long to figure it out.
The linked reddit thread (it really is fantastic) also sort of answers this, though with a bit of conjecture. Mostly it seemed that the Greeks put an extreme amount of emphasis on morale over skill. Bravery and elan could overcome all foes. And this might be because the Greeks were part time soldiery. They couldn't spend their time dedicated to warfare training like, say, later medieval peoples could. It could be damaging to morale to play up the importance of skills that most Greeks in the phalanx would not have time to train for
Hykal94
Orange Estus Kitteh
- Location
- Firelink Shrine
As modern people, we really take basic things like "moving in formation" and "having captains" for granted.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Well, having a much smaller population base is certainly a factor. There is only so many you can mobilize, especially if most of the citizen body are farmers most of the time.
- Location
- The Old Dominion
The spartan army itself also didn't just consist of the Spartans though they were certainly the core of the army but Sparta also had communities of Perioeci and Sciritae free non-citizens residents of Sparta who lived in their own domestically self-governing communities.
The perioeci also fought as hoplites as did full Spartan citizens and apparently were allowed to own land and were pretty much responsible for spartan manufacturing, including producing weapons and armour, as well as conducting trade as unlike Spartan Citizens they could come and go from Sparta without requiring the approval of the spartan state.
The Sciritae were more interesting as they were used as a elite light infantry force that did a variety of things from operating as scouts, sentries and sentinels to guarding the extreme left flank of the Spartan army in battle.
Beyond that there were also apparently the neodamodes who were Helots who fought as hoplites in the spartan army exchange for their freedom after which they would become part of the Perioeci communities but not full citizens.
Jonen C
F.M.D.G.
- Location
- Lincopense, Ostrogothia, Suecia
Get any random amount of Joes into a group and try to get them to march in close order and stay level with one and other, where there is no set organization on who's in charge (at best maybe convince them to elect a leader) and you'll see just how for granted we take it.
Which is why I think spartan agoge is rather useful for soldiers as it accustoms one to obey one's superiors without question
Jonen C
F.M.D.G.
- Location
- Lincopense, Ostrogothia, Suecia
That is useful for getting people to fight effectively in close order, but nowadays obeying orders without question is suboptimal - not in the least because it may come at the cost of people not daring to take initiative and exploit opportunities without orders given, with command paralysis as an effect. Cf. Iraqi army.
So the Spartans ways may have been appropriate for their day and age, but it was not all it is held up to be even and it is certainly not so now.
We accustom modern soldiers to obey without question first and teach them initiative and critical thinking later. We also have a far more massive officer corp and our military isn't made up of nothing but the top percent of wealthy people (indeed those people strenuously avoid military service)
Jonen C
F.M.D.G.
- Location
- Lincopense, Ostrogothia, Suecia
I disagree, the conditioning is foremost to be attentive to orders and commands first - and certainly some nations favor stamping out any kind of thinking among the grunts - but some favor initiative and thinking at all ranks...
Though certainly the conditioning and training spends a considerable amount of time teaching what constitutes an appropriate time and place for displaying such, appropriate venues for questioning and what commands do not broker any form of questioning (for instance "Cover!").
The whole concept of aufdragstaktik is dependent on the ranks being given a job to do and the freedom to do it in the manner of their choosing (with training and manuals disseminating best practices from which to choose or, if appropriate, improvise freely from).