What if Modern Washington DC, San Francisco, London, Moscow, Paris, Berlin, Beijing, Hong Kong, Taiwan, andTokyo gets transported to the year of 1930?

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What if Modern Washington DC, San Francisco, London, Moscow, Paris, Berlin, Beijing, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Tokyo gets transported to the year of 1930? How would this change history? Would they try make the world better place or make it worst? How would downtime world react? NO COVID! This event takes place before or after the pandemic!
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ISOT
What if Modern Washington DC, San Francisco, London, Moscow, Paris, Berlin, Beijing, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Tokyo gets transported to the year of 1930? How would this change history? Would they try make the world better place or make it worst? How would downtime world react? NO COVID! This event takes place before or after the pandemic!
 
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Mass starvation, probably? Modern cities are completely incapable of feeding themselves for any significant amount of time, so.
 
Hunger yes, starvation no. It's 1930, all of those cities existed pre-Isot and post-Isot will be connected to national railroad networks.

Not that things won't be crazy, there'll be economic chaos, political chaos, rioting, conflict between uptime and downtime governments, but most places will avoid mass starvation.
 
The food supply in large cities is several days. They live "from the wheels". The population has also greatly increased, as has the consumption of electricity. Refrigerators (damage to existing food), water supply, water treatment stations, and the metro will stop. How to quickly organize the delivery of local food to the enclaves, if the local government and the head offices of the companies have disappeared? By the way, 1930 is the height of the Great Depression. The Russians are in the best position. They have a system of mass confiscation and distribution of food (last used in 1928 during the fight against a cartel of grain traders who, after a great harvest, created artificial shortages and raised grain prices), a reserve capital with a reserve government (Leningrad), and no doubt what to do with the enclave - these are the enemies.
 
I'm sure the capitalist government of Putin's Russian Federation will integrate seamlessly into the state apparatus of the Soviet Union.

The USA in the Great Depression was literally burning grain because it couldn't be sold- a sudden influx of uptimers in DC and SF desperate to pay (or barter) for extra food will be an economic shot in the arm, and I suspect that downtime American civil and military infrastructure will be relatively willing to work with Biden.
 
Hunger yes, starvation no. It's 1930, all of those cities existed pre-Isot and post-Isot will be connected to national railroad networks.

I'm not sure the railway to Hong Kong in 1930 is set up in anticipation of the population increasing sevenfold, and I'm not sure who they expect to purchase food from on a week delay, since the mainland is busy having a civil war. I'm fairly certain that there aren't enough troops in HK to just take the food? (google says ~12000 PLA garrison troops)

Beijing is sitting in the middle of a hostile power (the Chinese civil war is ongoing, and the KMT controls Beijing (ish)). It... probably can break out? But it sure won't be easy for it to feed itself

You're probably right that the other ones aren't as fcked, though?
 
I'm not sure the railway to Hong Kong in 1930 is set up in anticipation of the population increasing sevenfold, and I'm not sure who they expect to purchase food from on a week delay, since the mainland is busy having a civil war. I'm fairly certain that there aren't enough troops in HK to just take the food? (google says ~12000 PLA garrison troops)

Beijing is sitting in the middle of a hostile power (the Chinese civil war is ongoing, and the KMT controls Beijing (ish)). It... probably can break out? But it sure won't be easy for it to feed itself

Agree 100%- I was speaking generally, more about places like Paris and San Francisco. Beijing and Hong Kong will have far more serious problems- Moscow and Tokyo as well to a lesser extent- and China may actually face the possibility of uptimer on uptimer war if Taiwan intervene to support the downtime RoC or to rescue HK.

Taiwain is apparently only 35% food self-sufficient, but has a fully intact 21st century military. This could have interesting ramifications if they try to solve the former with the latter.

You're probably right that the other ones aren't as fcked, though?

Yeah, not that things won't still be very hard- civil unrest, mass emigration to other parts of the country, etc- but I don't see mass starvation in London.
 
This is the joke of the month.

Yes, I being sarcastic. Of course Putinist Moscow will rapidly find itself in conflict with the Soviet Union.

Can you imagine the difference between capitalism and communism? Can you imagine the difference between early communism and late communism? Soviet Russia in the 1930s is led by leaders who take ideology very seriously. They could earn good money and have a high position in tsarist Russia, but they chose to fight the tsarist regime. Soviet leaders lead a very ascetic lifestyle and demand this from their subordinates. Did you know that Stalin had 2 uniforms, 3 pairs of boots and buried him in mended socks? Now compare this with the colossal wealth and luxury of the Russian oligarchs. And do not forget - all or almost all officials in 1991 violated the oath to defend the USSR. This is the quitessence of the enemy and Moscow will very quickly be under siege by the Bolsheviks. 12 million citizens will very quickly want to eat and drink (reservoirs have not yet been built). Electricity, gasoline, natural gas - none of this is there.
A humanitarian catastrophe will occur without any assault, even before the arrival of the Red Army. I think the oligarchs and top officials will simply take the gold reserves, the diamond fund, the treasures from the museums, the archives, and fly away on planes and helicopters to the West.

Humanitarian catastrophe sure, but I wouldn't dismiss the uptime Russians quite so cavalierly. The Red Army in 1930 was not the unstoppable force it became by 1945, the USSR was still recovering from the devastation of the Russian Civil War a decade earlier, Stalin had only just triumphed over Trotsky- and now Stalin is presumably gone with downtime Moscow, leaving the Soviets leaderless. Putin meanwhile has significant military assets in Moscow, and honestly a militia of random uptime Russian reservists armed with whatever weapons the government can scrape up, using civilian vehicles, would probably be at least a match for whatever downtime Red Army units are in the vicinity of Moscow- since most Soviet forces will be deployed to the frontiers at this time to guard against foreign attack.

Not that I'm super confident in Putin and the uptimers winning- they have no logistic base unless they can cobble something together on the fly and will start running out of food and bullets fairly quickly. If that happens, and if the Soviets rally behind a competent leader, and if the uptimers don't capture too much of Russia's industrial heartland first, and if the downtime capitalists don't take advantage of the fighting in the Soviet Union to intervene in favor of Moscow and Putin...

I'm just saying it could go a couple different ways.
 
Taiwain is apparently only 35% food self-sufficient, but has a fully intact 21st century military. This could have interesting ramifications if they try to solve the former with the latter.

The Beijing capital honor guard consists of an entire corps sized mechanized formation. The ROC expeditionary forces will get annihilated if they try to land in the mainland.
 
The Beijing capital honor guard consists of an entire corps sized mechanized formation. The ROC expeditionary forces will get annihilated if they try to land in the mainland.

I hear what you're saying, but I don't think that an easy victory on the part of the PRC can be assumed. Yes, Beijing has some pretty powerful assets at its disposal (from what I can tell the Beijing Capitol Garrison includes two divisions- the 1st and 3rd Guards divisions- do you have a link for the corps-sized mechanized formation?) but it has some major disadvantages compared to Taiwan.

Namely; it's a very different thing to ISOT an entire country, even a relatively small country, than it is to ISOT just a city. Taiwan is "intact" in a way that the PRC isn't, it's cut off from it's foreign allies and trading partners, but it has all of its emergency stockpiles, it has its military industry, and it has its civilian base. The PRC meanwhile is a "cross section" of a country- a powerful cross-section, but one with holes in it that Taiwan won't have. It has at least two divisions worth of troops, it has its command and control infrastructure, it has its leadership, but what kind of stockpiles are present within the borders of the city of Beijing? What sorts of military industry came along? China's military logistics are a national operation and most of that nation is gone. Both the Beijing Garrison and the Taiwanese armed forces will eventually start running out of essential supplies to sustain operations, the question is who runs out last? Who can rebuild their supply chains fastest? Taiwan almost certainly has plans in case of a PRC blockade cutting it off from international trade- the Taiwanese reserves of food and munitions were definitely ISOTed- and its military is certainly prepared to operate in isolation on a temporary basis (though it will run out of essentials eventually). The PRC probably does not have plans for just Beijing to be completely isolated without the ability to draw on any resources outside of the capital, because that sort of thing really only happens in fiction- in a war scenario it would make no sense not to account for assets in neighboring Hebei or elsewhere. Taiwan is about 35% food self-sufficient, the City of Beijing is probably closer to 1%.

Then of course you have the downtimers to consider. Unlike the situation in Russia where the USSR has just been decapitated, the government of the downtime RoC is based in Nanjing and still in a position to co-ordinate and direct millions of soldiers in the National Revolutionary Army. Now it's a pretty weak government, with a unimpressive military even by downtime standards, and there are the downtime Chinese communists who will back the PRC against it, but it's still a factor worthy of consideration- particularly if it's allied to Taiwan. Plenty of other downtime countries hostile to communism who might or might not help, and the rest of the uptimers are not terribly friendly to the PRC even if they're not initially in a position to do much to help.

Can Taiwan project power to Beijing and defeat the Beijing Capitol Garrison there? No. Can it defeat the Hong Kong Garrison? I'd say yes. Hong Kong offers a modern port capable of handling 21st century shipping and is already a terminus for downtime transportation networks, so controlling it would be a benefit to Taipei even with the added mouths to feed. I doubt Taiwan would pick a fight with the downtimers to get food, but I could certainly see it telling Chiang; "We're going to deploy our military to the mainland to help bolster you against the Communists who are now desperately steam-rolling as much of northern China as they can and you're going to do everything you can to help provide us with the food and raw materials we need" and Chiang wouldn't have much of an alternative other than saying "yes". Taiwan's initial food situation is better than Beijing's, they have the industry to manufacture 21st century light arms, vehicles, and electronics, and if they can get their logistics straightened out then they can start equipping the downtimers to supplement their 300,000 strong standing military and 3.8 million-strong reserve forces. There's a decent chance they'll be able to cut trade deals with downtimers outside of China (say the Dutch) for supplies as well (say oil from the Dutch East Indies).

Will Taiwan actually be able to achieve this? I don't know, but it can.

Can the PRC maintain order in Beijing? Probably. Can it use the forces at its disposal to take control of enough of the surrounding area to secure food for its population? I'd say yes. Can it form alliances with the downtime Chinese communists? Also yes. Can it plug the holes in its logistics? Can it obtain the raw materials it needs to rebuild/build from scratch some kind of industrial base? Can it use downtime infrastructure to project power long distances? None of these things will be easy, but they are achievable. Can it effectively aid the Hong Kong Garrison all the way from Beijing? Can it project power 1,000 kilometers from Beijing to Nanjing? Not right away. Can it do those things in the face of opposition not just by the downtime NRA but by the Taiwanese armed forces? I think that sort of fight could really go either way.

TLDR: Not saying that Taiwan would necessarily win, but I don't think it would be an easy victory for the PRC.
 
I hear what you're saying, but I don't think that an easy victory on the part of the PRC can be assumed. Yes, Beijing has some pretty powerful assets at its disposal (from what I can tell the Beijing Capitol Garrison includes two divisions- the 1st and 3rd Guards divisions- do you have a link for the corps-sized mechanized formation?) but it has some major disadvantages compared to Taiwan.

Not immediately on me. Also it might have changed since then.

Namely; it's a very different thing to ISOT an entire country, even a relatively small country, than it is to ISOT just a city.

The PRC probably does not have plans for just Beijing to be completely isolated without the ability to draw on any resources outside of the capital, because that sort of thing really only happens in fiction- in a war scenario it would make no sense not to account for assets in neighboring Hebei or elsewhere. Taiwan is about 35% food self-sufficient, the City of Beijing is probably closer to 1%.

The Municipality of Beijing is 70% the land area of the country of Israel (16.5k km^2 vs 20 km^2) or some such. Around 12k km^2 of the Beijing municipality is heavily mechanized farms. The municipality of Beijing is basically the country of Israel with three times more people. Taiwan's total land area is only slightly more than twice that of Beijing's (36k km^2) and like a third of Taiwan is mountains unsuitable for large scale habitation of agriculture.

There is also the fact that the PRC along with Japan is the world leader(s) in indoor farming, particularly in its T1 cities like Beijing.


Taiwan's initial food situation is better than Beijing's,

Incorrect. AIUI both Taiwan and Beijing city are self-sufficient in staple grain production. They can both survive on starvation rations for a while. However, Taiwan will have to ship food from across the straits when 1937 China basically has no modern port facilities whereas Beijing is literally in the middle of China's wheat belt.

they have the industry to manufacture 21st century light arms, vehicles, and electronics, and if they can get their logistics straightened out then they can start equipping the downtimers to supplement their 300,000 strong standing military and 3.8 million-strong reserve forces.

So does Beijing. Norinco has its HQ and some of its factories in the city itself. There are still 2 million industrial workers in the city and a ton of factories some of which make things like MLRS batteries. Additionally some of the nuclear weapons research institutes are in the city so if Taipei really presses the issue then the mushroom clouds come down. Game over.

Then of course you have the downtimers to consider. Unlike the situation in Russia where the USSR has just been decapitated, the government of the downtime RoC is based in Nanjing and still in a position to co-ordinate and direct millions of soldiers in the National Revolutionary Army. Now it's a pretty weak government, with a unimpressive military even by downtime standards, and there are the downtime Chinese communists who will back the PRC against it, but it's still a factor worthy of consideration- particularly if it's allied to Taiwan. Plenty of other downtime countries hostile to communism who might or might not help, and the rest of the uptimers are not terribly friendly to the PRC even if they're not initially in a position to do much to help.

You mean those same warlords and soldiers who defected en masse to both the Japanese and the Communists OTL? The same nationalist army where one of the warlords literally kidnapped Chiang to force him to make a United Front with the CPC?

I'm sure none of the extremely politically reliable KMT warlords and divisions will switch sides to the winning team just like they did in real life. Totally.

No. Can it defeat the Hong Kong Garrison? I'd say yes.

It cannot. The ROC military basically only exists on paper right now. The soldiers have to pay for essential equipment out of pocket and theft from the depots is endemic. Its own officers optimistic estimates of the percentage of functional capital assets is around 30% in the front line units of the ROC army.

Without a massive re-armament program, the ROC military can probably put maybe a few battalions across the straits and 1-2 squadrons of fast jets or helos in the air IMO. The PLA garrison in Hong Kong has 2 infantry brigades, a fighter squadron, and a rotating basis of South Sea fleet squadrons so if the ROC is unlucky one of the Carrier battlegroups will be sitting in the harbor during the ISOT.

foreignpolicy.com

Taiwan’s Military Has Flashy American Weapons but No Ammo

A young soldier’s suicide reveals the disastrous logistics of an undersupplied army.

In an emotional press conference, Huang's mother alleged that her son was subjected to hazing by his superior officers, and that he was pressured to procure tools and spare repair parts out of his own pocket. Screenshots of private messages, receipts, and photos of items purchased by Huang were shown to the public as proof. For some time before Huang's death, the novice lieutenant was desperately trying to make up for the shortages in his depot by buying a variety of items like repair hammers and fire buckets from the civilian market. Huang's brother even used a U.S. website in Arizona to purchase a pair of spark plug gap gauges for him that used imperial measurements instead of metric ones.

But to serving officers and soldiers, that response was a grim joke. In fact, during the same parliament hearing the inspector general of the military directly contradicted Yen and admitted that "there were indeed occurrences" of soldiers being pressured to purchase parts. Army inspectors also found at least 31 items still missing from Huang's depot after his death.

Even worse, the 269th Mechanized Infantry Brigade isn't some rear-echelon unit but a major combat formation strategically stationed around the outskirt of Taoyuan City, northern Taiwan. It is expected to bear the brunt of ground fighting to stop any invading Chinese troops from reaching the basin of Taipei, Taiwan's capital. If the 269th is in such bad material shape, how about the rest of the Taiwanese military?

"Tracked vehicles are the real nightmares. About 50 percent of the tanks and self-propelled artillery guns I've seen are in running conditions. But a tank that has engine and tracks running is no guarantee that it also has a functional gun."

Chen added: "If we are talking about something that resembles U.S. standards, I would say 30 percent of the tanks are in running conditions and have functional weapons."

I tend to think the team that hasn't sold all the parts for their tanks and artillery batteries on the black market will win.
 
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Tokyo's assimilated very quickly. Pre-WW2 militarized Japan now knows about nuclear weapons, how to make them, and how they were used against them in the future. Something tells me they'll be holding a grudge.

No COVID by fiat, but smallpox is still kicking around in the thirties. 'Least we know how to get rid of it this time, right? Medical technology - and the proof that vaccination on a massive scale works - is probably the one good thing to come out of the time travel. Hopefully, the flu doesn't spread and start a new pandemic.

Massive cultural clashes. Laws have changed a lot over the last century. LGBQ rights, women's rights, etc. Quite a few marriages are suddenly questionably legal, which would be a terrible thing to have happen, and WW2 was a massive turning point for women in the workforce - that is now solidly in the future. I'd hope that things would change quickly for the better, but the pessimist in me doubts it, especially considering everything else going on. The increased representation of women in political office might help, but . . . well, see next.

Massive political clashes. Most of those cities will basically be foreigners dropped into hostile territory. The ones that aren't are going to have many political hurdles, because - in America's case - the future electoral college has elected Biden and their actual current president has either just disappeared or has been sorta evicted from the White House. That's a massive constitutional crisis if I've ever seen one, and it won't be alone. Forget trying to spur progressive cultural change, regimes will be lucky to avoid outright rebellion. Litigation oft relies on precedent, too, and is it really precedent if it hasn't happened yet? Another one for the courts to solve.

Currency problems. Inflation has had a long time to do it's work, and currencies are way different, even if their funds were held locally, and this is a terrible time to be dependent on the government for welfare because the depression's kicking around. Chaos is generally bad for markets, but I'll hold judgement on that because I'm not an economist. However, something tells me that whatever money ISOT'd people have on hand won't magically become 100x as valuable.

Good news about WW2: Hitler's gonna get rekt as people test his time travel immunity and Berlin might sway Germany back from open support for the war. Bad news: I doubt it will alleviate the underlying pressures that started WW2, and considering the circumstances, there'll be many new wars on the horizon using more modern weaponry. They'll be lucky if nukes don't start flying around. I don't know if any ICBM silos were within the radius, but who knows what kind of plane dropped munitions are available, and anyone who doesn't want to be nuked is going to be scrambling to build nukes of their own.

I honestly think London might have the best time, but then again, Boris Johnson (joke.) They've had a relatively stable culture with (unless my public education has led me astray once more) fairly reasonable governments on either side of the temporal divide. They'll still have problems, sure, but at least they won't be in immediate danger of invasion.
 
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Not immediately on me. Also it might have changed since then.



The Municipality of Beijing is 70% the land area of the country of Israel (16.5k km^2 vs 20 km^2) or some such. Around 12k km^2 of the Beijing municipality is heavily mechanized farms. The municipality of Beijing is basically the country of Israel with three times more people. Taiwan's total land area is only slightly more than twice that of Beijing's (36k km^2) and like a third of Taiwan is mountains unsuitable for large scale habitation of agriculture.

There is also the fact that the PRC along with Japan is the world leader(s) in indoor farming, particularly in its T1 cities like Beijing.




Incorrect. AIUI both Taiwan and Beijing city are self-sufficient in staple grain production. They can both survive on starvation rations for a while. However, Taiwan will have to ship food from across the straits when 1937 China basically has no modern port facilities whereas Beijing is literally in the middle of China's wheat belt.



So does Beijing. Norinco has its HQ and some of its factories in the city itself. There are still 2 million industrial workers in the city and a ton of factories some of which make things like MLRS batteries. Additionally some of the nuclear weapons research institutes are in the city so if Taipei really presses the issue then the mushroom clouds come down. Game over.



You mean those same warlords and soldiers who defected en masse to both the Japanese and the Communists OTL? The same nationalist army where one of the warlords literally kidnapped Chiang to force him to make a United Front with the CPC?

I'm sure none of the extremely politically reliable KMT warlords and divisions will switch sides to the winning team just like they did in real life. Totally.



It cannot. The ROC military basically only exists on paper right now. The soldiers have to pay for essential equipment out of pocket and theft from the depots is endemic. Its own officers optimistic estimates of the percentage of functional capital assets is around 30% in the front line units of the ROC army.

Without a massive re-armament program, the ROC military can probably put maybe a few battalions across the straits and 1-2 squadrons of fast jets or helos in the air IMO. The PLA garrison in Hong Kong has 2 infantry brigades, a fighter squadron, and a rotating basis of South Sea fleet squadrons so if the ROC is unlucky one of the Carrier battlegroups will be sitting in the harbor during the ISOT.

foreignpolicy.com

Taiwan’s Military Has Flashy American Weapons but No Ammo

A young soldier’s suicide reveals the disastrous logistics of an undersupplied army.

So at least from my own knowledge as both an officer in a military, and in a military that is a semi-allied nation to Taiwan (even if they don't like us too much.)

The PRC garrison in Hong Kong is screwed. How far Taiwan could project beyond that is a much more open ended questions for the reasons you've stated but even taking a their optimistic idea and cutting it to 1/3rd still gives Taiwan a 3 to 1 advantage over the local garrison, along with significant Naval and Air force advantages. China's primary naval base nearby Is in Zhanjiang which is now gone, while Taiwan maintains its entire Airforce and Naval assets (which again even if we assume only 10-30% are functioning at 100% and the rest are in various states of disrepair) is still more then enough to flatten the Hong Kong Naval Surface to Sea Batteries and probably sail up to Japan and sink the old time IJN in harbour before they know what's happening.

Like yes the Taiwanese military is not anywhere near as powerful as it is on paper but against a 10,000 ish man garrison with minimal airsupport and unless it gets lucky with ships passing by, effectively no naval asserts, and even less capacity to replace its own lost ammunition, it will win. Even if it is a bloodier battle then the Taiwanese might hope for.

Not to mention the PRC garrison is potentially going to have to deal with the Hong Kong protests/riots round 2 now that they don't have a full state apparatus backing up the garrison.

Edit, this also doesn't account for the possibility of their being American warships or even a full on carrier task group coming along with Taiwan.

Hell that applies to any of the port cities, you could have warships from a dozen different countries coming along depending on who was parked in Tokyo harbour that day, or San Francisco, or etc.
 
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The PRC garrison in Hong Kong is screwed. How far Taiwan could project beyond that is a much more open ended questions for the reasons you've stated but even taking a their optimistic idea and cutting it to 1/3rd still gives Taiwan a 3 to 1 advantage over the local garrison, along with significant Naval and Air force advantages. China's primary naval base nearby Is in Zhanjiang which is now gone, while Taiwan maintains its entire Airforce and Naval assets (which again even if we assume only 10-30% are functioning at 100% and the rest are in various states of disrepair) is still more then enough to flatten the Hong Kong Naval Surface to Sea Batteries and probably sail up to Japan and sink the old time IJN in harbour before they know what's happening.

Like yes the Taiwanese military is not anywhere near as powerful as it is on paper but against a 10,000 ish man garrison with minimal airsupport and unless it gets lucky with ships passing by, effectively no naval asserts, and even less capacity to replace its own lost ammunition, it will win. Even if it is a bloodier battle then the Taiwanese might hope for.

You do realize that the distance between Hong Kong and Beijing is within transit range for the typical twin engine Flankerski the PLA flies let alone its imported Su-35s or 5th gen fighters? They also have tankers.

Minor other issue of Beijing responding to this by detonating a can of instant sunshine over Taoyuan and Taipei or even just conventional ballistic missile barrages/using their heavy bombers to fling anti-ship and cruise missiles.

Not to mention the PRC garrison is potentially going to have to deal with the Hong Kong protests/riots round 2 now that they don't have a full state apparatus backing up the garrison.

Most of the ultras have decamped to live in poverty in places like Britain or Australia. This isn't really an issue anymore.

Edit, this also doesn't account for the possibility of their being American warships or even a full on carrier task group coming along with Taiwan.

American warships haven't made port call in the ROC since Nixon went to China.
 
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You do realize that the distance between Hong Kong and Beijing is within transit range for the typical twin engine Flankerski the PLA flies let alone its imported Su-35s or 5th gen fighters? They also have tankers.

Minor other issue of Beijing responding to this by detonating a can of instant sunshine over Taoyuan and Taipei or even just conventional ballistic missile barrages/using their heavy bombers to fling anti-ship and cruise missiles.



Most of the ultras have decamped to live in poverty in places like Britain or Australia. This isn't really an issue anymore.



American warships haven't made port call in the ROC since Nixon went to China.

It depends on how far the ISOT box extends around the island. Since the free movement patrols tend to wander somewhat close to the coast lines.

Also sure, if Beijing has nuclear silos inside of the city borders itself then it can always drop a nuke, but even if we account for the Beijing air defense garrison your looking at 210-300 fighter aircraft spread across the entire Central command theater, of which depending on your borders of what counts as Beijing (does Tianjin come along with it or just Beijing proper?) Is down to very optimistically, 100 across 3-4 airbases. More likely a few dozen. Even if we go by the 10% estimate then the Taiwanese have ~40-60 fully working fighters operating much closer to their airports and backed up by surface to Air fire from their army and navy.
 
I'm sure the capitalist government of Putin's Russian Federation will integrate seamlessly into the state apparatus of the Soviet Union.

The USA in the Great Depression was literally burning grain because it couldn't be sold- a sudden influx of uptimers in DC and SF desperate to pay (or barter) for extra food will be an economic shot in the arm, and I suspect that downtime American civil and military infrastructure will be relatively willing to work with Biden.

man,that fucked was the great depression?

is funny when the stimulus check for the economy comes in the form of a ISOT
 
man,that fucked was the great depression?

is funny when the stimulus check for the economy comes in the form of a ISOT

Things were insane during the Great Depression, corn was literally cheaper than coal so people burned corn for fuel, businesses burned grain because the cost of storing it was higher than the cost of selling it, farmers killed their own livestock because the price of meat was so low that they weren't worth the feed to keep alive. There were deliberate efforts to destroy food on a large enough scale that it would reduce supply and drive prices up.

Meanwhile people were starving to death because they were unemployed and couldn't afford to buy food even at those prices.

Partly it was a symptom of the United States expanding its agricultural production during World War I in response to European agricultural production dropping due to so many farmers being drafted, but then the war ended, European production rose again, and tariff barriers prevented American exports from being competitive. Partly it was the industrial workers being laid of in large numbers so they didn't have money to spend on food, driving prices down.
 
So you'll need to couch this with the fact that the PLA is about as secretive as the Soviet military of yore so a lot of this is unconfirmed, however I will make the following notes.

It depends on how far the ISOT box extends around the island. Since the free movement patrols tend to wander somewhat close to the coast lines.

Also sure, if Beijing has nuclear silos inside of the city borders itself then it can always drop a nuke,

The Xuan Hua launch facilities are within the city limits of Beijing. These are slotted for DF-5 ICBM launchers which carry 5 megaton unitary nuclear warheads or a number of MIRV nuclear warheads. I am unsure what size force is garrisoning the base but presuming a full strength Rocket Force brigade it should be enough to turn Tokyo and all of Taiwan's major cities into radioactive glass if they cared to do so.

but even if we account for the Beijing air defense garrison your looking at 210-300 fighter aircraft spread across the entire Central command theater, of which depending on your borders of what counts as Beijing (does Tianjin come along with it or just Beijing proper?) Is down to very optimistically, 100 across 3-4 airbases. More likely a few dozen. Even if we go by the 10% estimate then the Taiwanese have ~40-60 fully working fighters operating much closer to their airports and


As per US DoD in this really shitty map that is hard to place stuff on (page 111), it looks like the US military believes the Central Theater command possesses 10 fighter/ground attack divisions. I am not sure if they've changed the number but traditionally PLA fast jet divisions contain around 80-120 combat aircraft. I think if we are generous if what counts as "Beijing" then they possess 4-5 fast jet divisions for somewhere between 320 to 600 fast jets.

Considering that the Central Theater command is the strategic reserve for all other TCs it and its predecessor the Beijing MR possesses the most advanced toys in the PLA toy box outside of the forces slated for Taiwan straits crisis gone hot, we will be looking at late model Chinese Flankerskis, Su-35s, J-10s, and possibly stealth fighters.

For reference, the ROCAF entire can surge somewhere around 375 fast jets. Most of which are obsolescent and many of which will be inoperable likely because the soldiers stole the parts and shit to sell. There are like 30 F-5s and 50 Mirage 2000s which are 2 generations behind PLAAF 4th gen fast jets. AIUI only a few of the ROCAFs F-16s have been upgraded to V specs with AESA radars. So it will basically be a massive turkey shoot for the PLAAF especially when stealth fighters are thrown into the mix.

backed up by surface to Air fire from their army and navy.

The Taiwanese navy is a complete non-threat to the PLAAF. Their most advanced AAW combatants are a few Kidd-class destroyers originally slated for the Imperial Iranian navy armed with 1960s vintage SM-2 launchers. They also do not have AESA radar arrays on their naval "capital" ships. Their SAM batteries are more potent but these are too short ranged to help if the PLAAF decides to interdict strike packages headed towards Hong Kong or just bomb any ROC troops trying to push into the mainland.

I am generally of the opinion that the PLA forces immediately garrisoned in HK and Beijing alone can reunify the mainland by force and guile (i.e. getting KMT warlords to defect) and keep the Taiwanese contained on their island (assuming they don't just nuke the shit out of it).
 
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So you'll need to couch this with the fact that the PLA is about as secretive as the Soviet military of yore so a lot of this is unconfirmed, however I will make the following notes.



The Xuan Hua launch facilities are within the city limits of Beijing. These are slotted for DF-5 ICBM launchers which carry 5 megaton unitary nuclear warheads or a number of MIRV nuclear warheads. I am unsure what size force is garrisoning the base but presuming a full strength Rocket Force brigade it should be enough to turn Tokyo and all of Taiwan's major cities into radioactive glass if they cared to do so.




As per US DoD in this really shitty map that is hard to place stuff on (page 111), it looks like the US military believes the Central Theater command possesses 10 fighter/ground attack divisions. I am not sure if they've changed the number but traditionally PLA fast jet divisions contain around 80-120 combat aircraft. I think if we are generous if what counts as "Beijing" then they possess 4-5 fast jet divisions for somewhere between 320 to 600 fast jets.

Considering that the Central Theater command is the strategic reserve for all other TCs it and its predecessor the Beijing MR possesses the most advanced toys in the PLA toy box outside of the forces slated for Taiwan straits crisis gone hot, we will be looking at late model Chinese Flankerskis, Su-35s, J-10s, and possibly stealth fighters.

For reference, the ROCAF entire can surge somewhere around 375 fast jets. Most of which are obsolescent and many of which will be inoperable likely because the soldiers stole the parts and shit to sell. There are like 30 F-5s and 50 Mirage 2000s which are 2 generations behind PLAAF 4th gen fast jets. AIUI only a few of the ROCAFs F-16s have been upgraded to V specs with AESA radars. So it will basically be a massive turkey shoot for the PLAAF especially when stealth fighters are thrown into the mix.



The Taiwanese navy is a complete non-threat to the PLAAF. Their most advanced AAW combatants are a few Kidd-class destroyers originally slated for the Imperial Iranian navy armed with 1960s vintage SM-2 launchers. They also do not have AESA radar arrays on their naval "capital" ships. Their SAM batteries are more potent but these are too short ranged to help if the PLAAF decides to interdict strike packages headed towards Hong Kong or just bomb any ROC troops trying to push into the mainland.

I am generally of the opinion that the PLA forces immediately garrisoned in HK and Beijing alone can reunify the mainland by force and guile (i.e. getting KMT warlords to defect) and keep the Taiwanese contained on their island (assuming they don't just nuke the shit out of it).

The list I found placed iirc 14 fighter divisions in the Central Theater, of which 3-4 were in the Beijing area, several more in Tainjin and the rest in bases well outside Beijing. Which was where I got my numbers from. And most of their aircraft were listed as the older J-7s and J-8s. With the newer ones generally put in bases outside the city itself.

I'll concede the naval one since it seems Taiwan hasn't actually put any new AAMs on their Oliver Perrys
 
Alright, let's take a crack at this. OP says "before or after the pandemic" but truth be told even after the pandemic COVID will still exist for some time. More likely we're looking at pre-pandemic, when the US is led by...oh.

So, yes, the USA has just lost its government and while DC circa 2019 probably has a full government, outside of DC proper and San Francisco[1], not a single American voted for any of those officials...so, while perhaps some emergency or transitional government could be negotiated, the hand at the wheel is not exactly the most stable, so who's to say how bad things could get? Or who the downtimers will be able to assemble to negotiate on their behalf?

Shit, maybe San Francisco wouldn't even want to rejoin the Union, given the culture clash[2] - DC residents are also majority Black and overwhelmingly vote Democrat so they would have some really strong objections to the state of affairs, but DC's cultural and political importance make city-state status a non-seller. That said...looks at sustained race riots in DC throughout the past year. Well, it would be interesting.

On the other hand, this is the Great Depression and the communist movement in America is very strong...one could see leftists from DC and SanFran moving among the masses, trying to organize and influence events, even uptime politicians who've lost their home states might schlep around trying to restart their careers.

London, as mentioned, may be the most immediately stable. There may be some issues, as with America, as to elected officials not actually being elected, and there might be problems with the Royal Succession if a member of the Royal Family was outside London at the time, but the UK could probably hold elections quicker than the US and Greater London has more than enough clout to get a favorable deal. Of course the problem will be culture clash, not only issues of race and gender but the fact that London comes from a post-Empire world...while some fools may try and keep the Empire or "reform" it in some way, I think most Londoners, especially those of African or Indian descent will have some...objections.

And they might lodge those objections in the voting booth, or in their time-shifted homelands. Those ventures probably won't be extraordinarily successful - they'll have as much culture clash as the Brits - but it will conplicate things.

Paris is similar to London; different ethnicities and cultures, different government. Maybe they'll have a revolution just for kicks. France probably also has problems with the Imperial question, I'm not sure who would have an easier time holding on to theirs.

Berlin is going to do everything to keep the Nazis out of power. They could probably take power in the unstable Weimar Republic, and honestly if there's one place I'm optimistic about it's Germany; then again, for historical and alternate-historical reasons they will be Concerned about Russia so I can see some form of intervention there, as neither the Soviets nor Putin seem like they'd make good neighbors.

Moscow has been discussed a bit, but I want to stress that governments are not the only actors here - and there are modern Russians who oppose Putin who even have nostalgia for the USSR - and this is a USSR that has yet to make certain historical mistakes, no less[3].

Beijing, Hong Kong, and Taiwan have been discussed at length; China was not a stable part of the world and is unlikely to remain that way.

As for Tokyo, we have the same problem as London where both the elected government and the monarchy are of dubious legitimacy, and while modern Japan has some...history, Tokyo has just accidentally'd into their own empire once again and whatever direction the new government takes, they will have to think very hard about Japan's place in the world. I should also say that modern Tokyo will have as many issues on gender, race, and so on as London, Paris, or Berlin.

It's probably worth address that tension - will modern social values be embraced or rejected? Will progress, as we see it, be greatly advanced, or will it be smothered? Will great mistakes of history be avoided, or will new and worse ones be made?

Ultimately I think it will be both, in various places[4]. Some places will move forward remarkably quickly, or the ISOT could provide the spark for a transformative wave of liberation across the world...while in other places modern technology just entrenches unjust regimes even further, or the shock of the ISOT wipes away whatever progress may be had.

Here are but a few possibilities:

- the British Empire dissolves, partly due to intense pressure from London and partly due to economic and political chaos making colonial campaigns difficult; decolonization is still messy, but a few uptimers are trying doggedly to bootstrap the former colonies. Some descend into bloody conflict, but India isn't partitioned as a different set of nationalists come to prominence. Other empires try and fill the vacuum, and the UK tries to find its way in the world.

- France experiences a revolution and the new liberal-nationalist govenrment attempts to reform the empire into a federation; Indochina is given up as a bad job, but Francophone Africa gets some investment. The result will be a regime that is both all-inclusive and all-oppressive, using the best of 21st Century social controls to assimilate Black Africans into French culture. Some African elites (and educated uptimers of African descent) will benefit, so long as they're properly Francified.

- Japan skipped liberalism and went straight to neoliberalism. They're imperialistic (although it's an empire of economic and political puppets), they tried to get involved in China and ate shit, but they did get to be top dog in the Pacific. Socially actually kind of nice, and the GEACPS has more staying power since it's built on "alliances". Some people are getting very rich. It probably still won't last. Has nukes.

- Germany ultimately shoots ahead on social norms, actually improving on us in some ways, European Jewry flourishes (outside France). On the flip side, Germany and the USSR fight over Eastern Europe and that snowballs into WW2. Some things never change.

- Right, the USSR. A coalition of anti-Putin uptimers and downtime Soviets managed to put the country together. The USSR managed to avoid some Mistakes (and made some others). They're a lot saner economically, sort of okay socially, but they're very aggressive and nationalistic. Not as oppressively paranoid as OTL, still very optimistic and into scientific progress. Think the ISOT was done by communist aliens.

- China's civil war got a lot messier after the ISOT, and although Taiwan made a real go of it with Japanese assistance (which may not have completely helped their case), the PRC wound up uniting the place. Currently they are struggling hard to bootstrap the country up to the point where they can make themselves a serious player. Hong Kong got really ugly but some other countries have made good use of the Hong Konger Diaspora. Trying to buddy up with the USSR, though the USSR is put off by their I Can't Believe It's Not Communism![5] and the nationalist side sees them as a threat. Has nukes and wishes they'd wasted Japan before they got nukes.

- Taiwan is a member of the GEACPS, but in a very "France and Germany in the EU" relationship - definitely an actual player. After losing the Chinese Civil War a new government came to power that officially declared itself the Republic of Taiwan and surrendered any claims to the mainland. That probably won't help them any.

- The USA had problems. There was no coordinated repsonse among the downtimers with coalitions of state governors butting heads, the military stepping in, the uptime government having no idea who they were even supposed to get the support of, and 45 not...helping... Add in the residents of DC proving to be extremely stubborn and hey presto, it's Civil War 2. Uptime leftists managed to forge a coalition of urban unions (promising worker control of industry), African-Americans (promising an end to Jim Crow), and bankrupt farmers (promising an end to debt), and only recently swept up the pieces of the old regime. Things look, and feel, pretty bright for the Union of American Soviets, and while some things got messed up, they have kept their promises. That said, Japan managed to snatch the Philippines and Hawaii away as puppets, Canada is looking nasty, and there are bigger stormclouds on the horizon...

Other stuff:

- the Spanish Civil War broke out a few years early and was won for the commies

- someone (probably the Germans) ganked Mussolini and a new government styling itself off of France is getting owned by an Ethiopia that someone (probably the Americans) gave uptime weapons

- Canada and Australia are really pissed at Britain for leaving them, really scared of the UAS/Japan, respectively, and turning pretty fascist as a result

- South Africa has an ongoing civil war

- India is doing well, they're trying to copy Nasser

- the Middle East is a mess, with Egypt trying to unite North Africa and kick out the French, a Hashemite-backed Pan-Arab movement, and a Persia that went communist; the Republic of Palestine is shaky - three governments have come and gone, but the current one is secular, and while the Kibbitzim are actually doing fairly well, the Zionist movement has been a bit chilled for now

- things actually happened in Latin America; Brazil and Argentina went fascist, invaded Chile, and are looking at the rest of the continent greedily; the Banana Republics were toppled and Mexico and Peru are increasingly friendly with the Comintern; if Peru jumps ship as well, there will be blood

- vaccination programs are making good headway, the League of Nations was dissolved with no replacement (except maybe the Comintern), and the Great Depression has ended

- uptime technology and information has been widely disseminated; only Europe and Japan have teched up enough to reproduce even a 1970s level of technology, although the UAS, USSR, and PRC are working hard to catch up. More than that, uptime ideas have flourished, from women's liberation and uptime insurgency techniques to governments picking up propaganda, social controls, and counterinsurgency techniques, and of course a mania for uptime pop culture.

...

- China and France hate Japan. The Cominterm - the UAS, USSR and allies - keeps gaining members. Germany and Russia hate each other. The Japanese and French want to keep expanding their empires. The fascists, though strangled in the crib in Europe, have taken half of South America, and are on the verge of victory in Canada and Australia. Africa is a patchwork of colonies, communists, nationalists, warlords, and others. China and Japan have nukes, and who knows what other countries aren't far behind?

There will be a World War 2. And something will be born from the ashes. A new world. A better one? Perhaps. Perhaps not.

There are many possibilities.

[1] Ironically I think Nancy Pelosi is the sole member of the Federal Government who actually has voters...go figure...

[2] Not that the I believe the past is inherently more bigoted - Weimar Germany had a thriving LGBT scene and some pioneering work on transgender people was being done, before the Nazis, and IIRC the Soviets had yet to criminalize homosexuality either. Many downtimers will be amenable to modern social norms! But well, this is pre-Jim Crow, after all...

[3] Although some mistakes may be unavoidable at this point...and much of the nostalgia for the USSR in modern Russia has less to do with communism and more with nationalist admiration for a Russia that stood tall on the world stage...

[4] Okay, ultimately this is pure imagination and as a writer I can decide this goes any way I want. If I want this scenario to produce Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism, I can find a way to justify it, and if I want soul-crushing grimdark or the early triumph of multicutural liberal democracy, I could do that, too.

[5] Mao was ganked, the communists rallied to Beijing's red banner, and between that, Xi Jinping Thought, and some True Believers, things got ideologically spicy.
 
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The list I found placed iirc 14 fighter divisions in the Central Theater, of which 3-4 were in the Beijing area, several more in Tainjin and the rest in bases well outside Beijing. Which was where I got my numbers from. And most of their aircraft were listed as the older J-7s and J-8s. With the newer ones generally put in bases outside the city itself.

I'll concede the naval one since it seems Taiwan hasn't actually put any new AAMs on their Oliver Perrys

I would check the date on your list. AIUI most of the 2nd gen fighters have been retired and the map I showed was from 2019-2020 estimates by the Pentagon. Of course the Pentagon map also notes that there were like 10 brigade size formations unaccounted for in their CTC map so maybe that is where is the discrepancy is from?

Berlin is going to do everything to keep the Nazis out of power. They could probably take power in the unstable Weimar Republic, and honestly if there's one place I'm optimistic about it's Germany; then again, for historical and alternate-historical reasons they will be Concerned about Russia so I can see some form of intervention there, as neither the Soviets nor Putin seem like they'd make good neighbors.

With what army? The Bundeswehr like the ROC military exists only on paper and Moscow retains its nuke equipped ABM system and its nuclear missile silos to this day. If Berlin so as much puts a single soldat on Soviet territory then whoever is in charge in Moscow turns Germany into radioactive parking lot.

www.dw.com

German military hit by damning report – DW – 01/29/2019

The German Bundeswehr is still underequipped, understaffed and overly bureaucratic, a new parliamentary report has revealed. Opposition politicians also say it is ignoring its problem with far-right extremism.

nationalinterest.org

Is Germany's Military Dying?

It won't be a loss on the battlefield that destroys Berlin's armed forces, but rather massive underfunding.

The German Navy and Air Force received a total of 357 Tornado aircraft. Their numbers reduced after the Cold War, Germany plans to keep the remainder in service until 2025 or beyond. Like other German weapon systems the Tornados are underfunded and of August 2014, only 38 of 89 were operational.

West Germany procured 2,125 Leopard IIs — enough to equip nearly twelve panzer (tank) and panzergrenadier (mechanized infantry) divisions. The end of the Cold War and declining defense budgets caused Germany to shed nearly 90% of its tank force, and today the Bundeswehr has just 225 Leopard II tanks.

Last February, Panzergrenadier Battalion 371, based in Marienburg, was participating in a NATO exercise in Norway. News quickly spread that the battalion, part of NATO's Rapid Reaction Force, suffered from a shortage of pistols and night vision goggles. A shortage of MG3 machine guns meant broomsticks were painted black and pressed into service to simulate them. A new report states that the situation was even worse: Panzergrenadier Battalion 371 had to borrow 14,371 pieces of equipment from a total of 56 other Bundeswehr units… and it was still short on equipment.

I don't think you want to gamble on the 1st Guards Tank Army garrisoned in Moscow vs whatever skeleton formations got ISOTed with Germany. I highly doubt the efficacy of broomsticks against the latest and greatest in 2020 Russian military hardware.

Trying to buddy up with the USSR, though the USSR is put off by their I Can't Believe It's Not Communism![5] and the nationalist side sees them as a threat.

Questionable assumption; The 2021 Russian Communist party is closely linked to the Chinese Communist party. Here is Secretary General Gennady Zyuganov as a guest of honor in Beijing in 2008 arguing if the Soviet Communist Party had learned from their southern neighbors earlier the USSR would still be around.


One other questionable assumption is that the uptimer Russian nationalists would axiomatically view Communist China as a threat. Here is a poll indicating that <1/3 of Russians view themselves as European anymore with the percentage of Russians under 35 viewing themselves as European declining massively. Public opinion in Russia at the grassroots is that Russia's future is as a Russian or Eurasian entity and surveys on China as the 21st century rolls on are getting warmer and warmer.

www.levada.ru

Политическое участие и отношения с государством в России

Интерес россиян к политике является более-менее постоянной величиной и носит преимущественно пассивный («зрительский») характер. Лишь 3% россиян готовы участвовать в активной политической деятельности. Вместе с тем вера россиян в возможности влиять на власть заметно усилилась. Значительно...

TL;DR if United Russia or the Uptimer Russian Communists manage to retain control of the USSR then you bet your ass Comintern 2.0 is a go.

- uptime technology and information has been widely disseminated; only Europe and Japan have teched up enough to reproduce even a 1970s level of technology, although the UAS, USSR, and PRC are working hard to catch up. More than that, uptime ideas have flourished, from women's liberation and uptime insurgency techniques to governments picking up propaganda, social controls, and counterinsurgency techniques, and of course a mania for uptime pop culture.

Disagree. Only Paris, Berlin, China (both ROC and PRC), Moscow, and Tokyo will have managed to up tech assuming no one gets nuked or conquered. London, Washington, San Francisco are all post-industrial cities with no factories. So these will be the cities that fail to rebuild their tech base by default.
 
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From what I've gathered Washington DC industries are largely tech, paper, publishing and engineering centered industries while San Francisco largely has biotech, high technology and medical research industries with a side order of a very small high tech manufacturing industry that employs a few thousand people along with a number of regional, national and international headquarters for various corporations in each city.

That would likely point to the possession of knowledge of how to do things and what would be needed even if they don't have the physical ability to build everything and knowledge is power.
 
From what I've gathered Washington DC industries are largely tech, paper, publishing and engineering centered industries while San Francisco largely has biotech, high technology and medical research industries with a side order of a very small high tech manufacturing industry that employs a few thousand people along with a number of regional, national and international headquarters for various corporations in each city.

That would likely point to the possession of knowledge of how to do things and what would be needed even if they don't have the physical ability to build everything and knowledge is power.

i mean,having a modern industrial center + a modern research and high tech can catapult the US technologically by a shiton in the following decades
 
From what I've gathered Washington DC industries are largely tech, paper, publishing and engineering centered industries while San Francisco largely has biotech, high technology and medical research industries with a side order of a very small high tech manufacturing industry that employs a few thousand people along with a number of regional, national and international headquarters for various corporations in each city.

That would likely point to the possession of knowledge of how to do things and what would be needed even if they don't have the physical ability to build everything and knowledge is power.

i mean,having a modern industrial center + a modern research and high tech can catapult the US technologically by a shiton in the following decades

It's more a comparative thing. DC and San Francisco's industrial bases are not self-contained and rely heavily on intermediate inputs from other parts of America or from foreign suppliers that are gone. The only self-contained industry in the ISOT American cities as someone who has lived in DC is some of the weapons factories in the DC area. Whereas in Beijing or Moscow or Berlin or Tokyo have fully self-contained industrial chains that can turn raw materials into finished products.

DC and San Francisco will need to import a lot of intermediate products from the Germans or Japanese as they rebuild the rest of the supply chain is what I am saying. If you look at the problems the US is having reshoring supply chains from Asia IRL rn then you'll realize that the US side will have to spend like a decade rebuilding basic supply chains and intermediate manufacturing while the other industrial cities like Tokyo or Beijing or Moscow push ahead.

It is also a matter of population. San Francisco and DC combined have a population of 2 million following strict city limits. If you include the San Francisco Bay Area which is an official Metropolitan subdivision of the USA, then the combined uptime US population is around 5.5 million. The population of Tokyo proper alone is 13 million rising to 35 million if you include the Tokyo Metropolitan area for instance.
 
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On the other hand, China and Russia in 1930 are considerably less developed and wealthy (even considering the great depression) than the USA.
 
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