An ISOT query about current Vermont replacing its newly independent historical self.
What if: Current Vermont ISOT to January 1777
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IOTL Vermont was an independent nation from 1777 until 1791 when it would become the 14th state.
How would things change if current Vermont replaced its historical self right at the beginning of the republics founding?
The states current political situation is quite soupy, how would it be reorganized in response to the new situation?
Will it join the burgeoning US and/or aid in its revolution? Or will it take on a more isolationist stance to not rock the boat to much and to retain power?
How would things change if current Vermont replaced its historical self right at the beginning of the republics founding?
The states current political situation is quite soupy, how would it be reorganized in response to the new situation?
Will it join the burgeoning US and/or aid in its revolution? Or will it take on a more isolationist stance to not rock the boat to much and to retain power?
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Politically I could see it go in a number of ways depending on how competent the initial response is.
It won't take long for people, especially on the border, to find out that something has happened, people with commutes out of state especially will be calling officials to ask what's going on. Quick search says Vermont produces a third as much as it Imports power wise, but has the lowest consumption level among the states, so after the initial black outs it shouldn't take too long for areas to get some level of power going again. Using what emergency communication is available the government will most likely direct people to stay in their homes and not leave the state.
After that its a toss up.
It won't take long for people, especially on the border, to find out that something has happened, people with commutes out of state especially will be calling officials to ask what's going on. Quick search says Vermont produces a third as much as it Imports power wise, but has the lowest consumption level among the states, so after the initial black outs it shouldn't take too long for areas to get some level of power going again. Using what emergency communication is available the government will most likely direct people to stay in their homes and not leave the state.
After that its a toss up.
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Vehicles would be very dicey. Vermont has no production or processing of petroleum. Most of the renewable power options would work alright, but vehicles need gasoline and diesel, neither of which were really being refined in significant quantities. Big oil wells and refineries wouldn't really become a thing for another 75 years give or take.
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- Location
- California
Well, I don't know if it's a net food exporter or importer, but that's going to be an issue--but Vermont has nearly 1/4 the total population of the 1777 United States.
On the other hand, Vermont knows how to stop smallpox and other infectious diseases in their tracks--remember this is actually before germ theory is really known at all, let alone accepted. The knowledge of how yellow fever is transmitted could help prevent some of the the massive outbreaks that would be endemic to the US and other regions, such as the 1793 Philadelphia outbreak.
On the other hand, Vermont knows how to stop smallpox and other infectious diseases in their tracks--remember this is actually before germ theory is really known at all, let alone accepted. The knowledge of how yellow fever is transmitted could help prevent some of the the massive outbreaks that would be endemic to the US and other regions, such as the 1793 Philadelphia outbreak.
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Medical tech is definitely liable to be te best bet for Vermont to acquire the resources it will need. Most medicines and medical knowledge we take for granted today would be worth their weight in gold (or more) in 1777. Assuming you can get people to believe in its effectiveness, you might as well have magic.
Sell penicillin (and ideally do your best to impart knowledge of antibiotic resistance and as much as you can about germ theory) and you could acquire most anything you need to begin the process of getting all the stuff you need to start doing Modern Society again
Sell penicillin (and ideally do your best to impart knowledge of antibiotic resistance and as much as you can about germ theory) and you could acquire most anything you need to begin the process of getting all the stuff you need to start doing Modern Society again
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- Location
- California
Yeah. I mean, these ISOTs have a bad habit of getting tht emilitary tech and IMO, that's boring. I'm more interested about the stuff that we don't really thinkj twice about but would have the locals going: WTF! I mean, imagine handing a 50 dollar Amazon Kindle to Franklin, with a selection of basic texts on science!
Hard agree here, plus this is an interesting flex point, the founding of a nation, and showing every problem, legal decision, and future event ahead of time and seeing how they deal with it.
Slavery is going to be a huge issue here, but even though you can't impart morality into them the fact that the nation will descend into Civil war over the issue and that it will both tarnish their legacies and not even be profitable in a century (and even less so now) could meet the issue at a head.
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- Great Khanate of Scotland
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- She/Her
I've seen a few "Modern Americans in 1776" scenarios, even toyed around with variations myself.
Consider that while Vermont only has a few thousand Black people, our country is currently having a, um, very heated public debate about the status of Black people and the legacy of slavery.
And this is a time when slavery is a major part of the US economy. While the state government might try and get people to stay home, I can easily see Black people - or sympathetic White people! - from Vermont tearing off to go start slave revolts and damn the consequences. At the very least public opinion would be very much against slavery and the government of Vermont would pressure the US government to abolish it.
Maybe we could even see people preparing for an early Civil War, forming abolitionist militias like OTL's Wide-Awakes.
Consider also the expansion westward and the accompanying genocide of Native Americans, something some Vermonters might be keen on taking a hand in themselves. If only they had better weapons/tools/organization/knowledge...
Well, not saying any of those independent efforts would succeed but I think people would try - the present moment is a messy and divided one in American history and many people will see the ISOT as a chance to avert what they see as various sins we've comitted, sins that still lie in the future.
For that matter, consider that this is the home state of Bernie Sanders, a Jewish democratic socialist; lots of people will be very interested in preventing the excesses of the industrial revolution, from the oppression of workers to the trashing of the environment.
Basically, I expect the relationship between Vermont and the US to be a strained one as Vermont tries to steer the course of events.
Consider that while Vermont only has a few thousand Black people, our country is currently having a, um, very heated public debate about the status of Black people and the legacy of slavery.
And this is a time when slavery is a major part of the US economy. While the state government might try and get people to stay home, I can easily see Black people - or sympathetic White people! - from Vermont tearing off to go start slave revolts and damn the consequences. At the very least public opinion would be very much against slavery and the government of Vermont would pressure the US government to abolish it.
Maybe we could even see people preparing for an early Civil War, forming abolitionist militias like OTL's Wide-Awakes.
Consider also the expansion westward and the accompanying genocide of Native Americans, something some Vermonters might be keen on taking a hand in themselves. If only they had better weapons/tools/organization/knowledge...
Well, not saying any of those independent efforts would succeed but I think people would try - the present moment is a messy and divided one in American history and many people will see the ISOT as a chance to avert what they see as various sins we've comitted, sins that still lie in the future.
For that matter, consider that this is the home state of Bernie Sanders, a Jewish democratic socialist; lots of people will be very interested in preventing the excesses of the industrial revolution, from the oppression of workers to the trashing of the environment.
Basically, I expect the relationship between Vermont and the US to be a strained one as Vermont tries to steer the course of events.
- Location
- California
It's a major part, but it's not yet as totally integrated with Southern culture as it will be--this is before the near total co-opting of Souther Religious institutions . Most notably, this comes before the rise of "scientific" racism in the mid-19th century. Before that, while obviously racism existed, it wasn't nearly as codified as it would become. (I recall one ofthe minutes of parliament in the late 18th century where a Slave Trader was asked about that, and he was qauite open. They took slaves because they needed the labor. Nothing else came into it).
If Vermont can butterfly away scientific racism... It helps to butterfly away one of the great underpinnings of the colonial Empires--it quite literally changes teh world beyond recognition.
If Vermont can butterfly away scientific racism... It helps to butterfly away one of the great underpinnings of the colonial Empires--it quite literally changes teh world beyond recognition.
Yeah, its going to be a big splitting point for Vermont between those who essentially want USA 2.0 with them at the helm and those who want a blank slate do-over on everything.
I think ultimately it's going to be a violent end, as you'll have this struggle between Vermont essentially opening up westward expansion immediately (not just technology-wise, but also maps and other technical data) and there will be a huge number who'll have the financial incentive while also lacking the morals to care about repeating the crimes of the past; yet you'll also have this well armed, educated, well nourished, and funded people with the desire to stop the expansion from happening and to tear down slavery as soon as possible.
This is also with everyone radicalized by both the transportation to the past and the breakdown of some standards of modern living.
- Location
- California
It really depends on the leadership. If someone can rise who is charismatic enough to attract majority support and also knows what he's doing, you can see a more unified Vermont.
Flectarn
Uphold Kali Akuno Thought
- Location
- Queen City of the Ohio
Depends on what you want to eat, Vermont produces nearly 3 billion pounds of milk, 40 million pounds of apples, 60 million eggs and 2 million gallons of maple syrup, plus smaller amounts of miscellaneous/less commodified crops and livestock. So, it won't be the world's most balanced diet, but they won't starve.
Flectarn
Uphold Kali Akuno Thought
- Location
- Queen City of the Ohio
Looks like it's closer to half, which still isn't great. The good news is that almost all of Vermont's internal generation capacity is renewables, mostly hydro, so they won't be losing that in the short term.
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- USA
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- She/Her
So as a Vermonter I can speak to a lot of this. Yes we import a lot of electricity but that's mostly because we shut down our nuclear power plant a couple years ago. Depending on the situation with the fuel rods & etc it could be started back up again with some effort. We also majorly underutilize a lot of our hydroelectric dams. They're there, but not generating power at maximum capacity.
And it isn't like we can't build more. Vermont has a pretty robust green power industry that's constantly making more solar and wind farms. And it isn't like we're going to have a problem with electronics. Global Founderies, what used to be IBM Burlington is still a major manufacturer of microchips and has a large population of chip engineers so that we could design and build new devices as needed. It isn't a 6nm line like AMD is doing over in Taiwan, but non-cutting-edge electronics manufacturing is better than NO electronics manufacturing. Biggest obstacle there is going to be the loss of the chemical imports for things like photo-resist and all the acids used in the various tools. Most of those were imported from out of state, but UVM has a pretty solid chemical engineering department so it isn't like the institutional knowledge would all be lost. Power is another issue as from what I remember, that chip fab accounts for something like 12% of the power consumption for the entire state. I'd expect it to be declared a strategic resource and limited to producing solar panels and a supply of replacement electronics for things like the hospital infastructure and military electronics.
From a military standpoint, Vermont is briefly the new superpower. We may not have a huge population, even for the era, but we have massively overpowered force projection capabilities thanks to the VTANG and their shiny new F35 squadron. A couple of C-130s and Blackhawk helicopters also base out of BTV. We also have a smattering of tanks spread out across the state at various places like the Lyndonville armoury and Camp Johnson. General Dynamics has a presence up in Jehrico where he 10th Mtn Div bases out of, but I can't speak to how much R&D they do there, I think it is mostly just weapons testing. Granted this is a force with a very short half-life due to logistical constraints, but just a couple F-35 show-of-force strikes against the British could well force a surrender because the Brits wouldn't know that they're basically a bluff. Although it is worth mentioning that said air guard base has its own fuck-huge fuel tank for the jets, although how long that would last and at what operational tempo is not something that I can answer.
Also in terms of crop production we make a boatload of corn, but it mostly gets turned onto silage for the dairy cattle. With the need to balance our dietary regimen, a lot of that could easily just be swapped over to eating instead.
And it isn't like we can't build more. Vermont has a pretty robust green power industry that's constantly making more solar and wind farms. And it isn't like we're going to have a problem with electronics. Global Founderies, what used to be IBM Burlington is still a major manufacturer of microchips and has a large population of chip engineers so that we could design and build new devices as needed. It isn't a 6nm line like AMD is doing over in Taiwan, but non-cutting-edge electronics manufacturing is better than NO electronics manufacturing. Biggest obstacle there is going to be the loss of the chemical imports for things like photo-resist and all the acids used in the various tools. Most of those were imported from out of state, but UVM has a pretty solid chemical engineering department so it isn't like the institutional knowledge would all be lost. Power is another issue as from what I remember, that chip fab accounts for something like 12% of the power consumption for the entire state. I'd expect it to be declared a strategic resource and limited to producing solar panels and a supply of replacement electronics for things like the hospital infastructure and military electronics.
From a military standpoint, Vermont is briefly the new superpower. We may not have a huge population, even for the era, but we have massively overpowered force projection capabilities thanks to the VTANG and their shiny new F35 squadron. A couple of C-130s and Blackhawk helicopters also base out of BTV. We also have a smattering of tanks spread out across the state at various places like the Lyndonville armoury and Camp Johnson. General Dynamics has a presence up in Jehrico where he 10th Mtn Div bases out of, but I can't speak to how much R&D they do there, I think it is mostly just weapons testing. Granted this is a force with a very short half-life due to logistical constraints, but just a couple F-35 show-of-force strikes against the British could well force a surrender because the Brits wouldn't know that they're basically a bluff. Although it is worth mentioning that said air guard base has its own fuck-huge fuel tank for the jets, although how long that would last and at what operational tempo is not something that I can answer.
Also in terms of crop production we make a boatload of corn, but it mostly gets turned onto silage for the dairy cattle. With the need to balance our dietary regimen, a lot of that could easily just be swapped over to eating instead.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I was just reminded of this thread and thought of several more things that haven't been brought up yet.
Burton Snowboards. Iconic for their boards but they also make a wide variety of cold-weather gear of exceptional quality. Imagine instead of Valley Forge, Washington can conduct a winter campaign thanks to his modern cold-weather clothing for his troops (and with the aforementioned F35 support).
Blodgett Ovens, Fairbanks Scales and Vermont Precision Tools: important metalworking capabilities and tooling to help build up the industrial capabilities of both the state and the Union.
King Arthur Flour: buy grain from out of state, mill it into flour, also they are a pretty big bakery in their own right.
Vermont Tech has a dental school. UVM is both a huge hospital complex and has a huge medical school. This will revolutionize medical practices and knowledge centuries early.
Rock of Ages quarry in Barre. Having access to top tier granite makes for a nice export product. Not nearly as important stategically as most of the stuff here, but worth mentioning.
Also given how shitty the 1777 roads coming into the state are going to be and how much we'd want to ship in and out of the state, I fully expect Lake Champlain and the port of Burlington to get super busy as all the stuff we're buying and selling comes in via the St Lawrence Seaway down the river to the lake and from there across VT's highways.
On a related note, VT will become one of the banking centers of the world thanks to electronic same-day transactions and settlement being a service no other bank can match. If telephone/cable/fiber lines to other major east coast cities aren't a high priority for the ISOT'd state, I'll eat my hat.
Hell, access to electricity, clean running water, modern sewage systems and the like probably drive a huge immigrant boom all on their own.
Also modern chicken, cattle, and crop breeds are vastly more productive than what was historically available. Expect those to be top dollar export items to farmers in the surrounding state areas, and for the productivity of those farms to increase commensurately.
Burton Snowboards. Iconic for their boards but they also make a wide variety of cold-weather gear of exceptional quality. Imagine instead of Valley Forge, Washington can conduct a winter campaign thanks to his modern cold-weather clothing for his troops (and with the aforementioned F35 support).
Blodgett Ovens, Fairbanks Scales and Vermont Precision Tools: important metalworking capabilities and tooling to help build up the industrial capabilities of both the state and the Union.
King Arthur Flour: buy grain from out of state, mill it into flour, also they are a pretty big bakery in their own right.
Vermont Tech has a dental school. UVM is both a huge hospital complex and has a huge medical school. This will revolutionize medical practices and knowledge centuries early.
Rock of Ages quarry in Barre. Having access to top tier granite makes for a nice export product. Not nearly as important stategically as most of the stuff here, but worth mentioning.
Also given how shitty the 1777 roads coming into the state are going to be and how much we'd want to ship in and out of the state, I fully expect Lake Champlain and the port of Burlington to get super busy as all the stuff we're buying and selling comes in via the St Lawrence Seaway down the river to the lake and from there across VT's highways.
On a related note, VT will become one of the banking centers of the world thanks to electronic same-day transactions and settlement being a service no other bank can match. If telephone/cable/fiber lines to other major east coast cities aren't a high priority for the ISOT'd state, I'll eat my hat.
Hell, access to electricity, clean running water, modern sewage systems and the like probably drive a huge immigrant boom all on their own.
Also modern chicken, cattle, and crop breeds are vastly more productive than what was historically available. Expect those to be top dollar export items to farmers in the surrounding state areas, and for the productivity of those farms to increase commensurately.
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- Location
- Great Khanate of Scotland
- Pronouns
- She/Her
You now there's enough ideas here that you could probably write a pretty decent timeline, or at least a series of oneshots.
Vulpine Fury
in socks
There's an "unfortunate" issue that a LOT of land has absentee Californian owners. Thus, a lot of that farmland is going to be "eminent domain-ed".
And, speaking of the livestock issue, UVM has or had (I'm not sure of the current state of things) exceptional breeding stock of Morgan horses. Thus the breed exists 12 years early. They would be the equivalent of luxury tractors, I think. Or roughly, an extremely good generalist horse. Good looking, and suited to pull a plow or a carriage in equal measure. In the 1777 time frame, they are also excellent race horses, given the courses are road races instead of flat tracks.
And, speaking of the livestock issue, UVM has or had (I'm not sure of the current state of things) exceptional breeding stock of Morgan horses. Thus the breed exists 12 years early. They would be the equivalent of luxury tractors, I think. Or roughly, an extremely good generalist horse. Good looking, and suited to pull a plow or a carriage in equal measure. In the 1777 time frame, they are also excellent race horses, given the courses are road races instead of flat tracks.
enbylvania
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- some other dimension
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- They/She/He
I am doing a similar project, thought people who watch this thread might be interested. I could definitely use the help of people who actually are from Vermont.
Vermont 2016? Early Modern
Vermont 2016? Early Modern
I expect Vermont to suffer and go through rationing due to the standard ISOT shock. Afterwards, Vermont will effectively rule the United States and can have the upgraded USA rule the world. There will be no civil war in this timeline. Canada might also become annexed.
enbylvania
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- some other dimension
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- They/She/He
I think Vermont will join the Revolution purely because it is such a powerful moment in the modern American collective consciousness that they'd feel obligated to do so. Vermonters would not want to rule the other provinces. The technological advantages and uptime information Vermont brings about the ultimate success of the revolution and of the US could swing many loyalists to the cause and lead to an early surrender of Britain to prevent unnecessary waste of manpower and money crushing on a revolution that had already succeeded. Nova Scotia would definitely be a part of the Union, and possibly the Province of Quebec (and thus all of British Canada at that point) as well. The war would end before the Spanish even join it, leaving Florida in Spanish hands.
Vermont can probably negotiate a prevention of the fleeing of Loyalists and the confiscation of their properties, leaving the US in a much better economic shape at the end of the war. They'd probably make too much demands regarding the end of slavery and end up being left independent of the new US due to refusal to compromise on moral issues where a compromise is necessary to keep the southern colonies.
Knowledge of the future would make the founders choose a neutral ground capital outside of Philadelphia earlier, but further north than Washington DC due to having more northern borders. Perhaps the area where Pennsylvania, New Jersey and Delaware all meet?
A new constitution would be adopted early, influenced both by the US constitution, the subsequent amendments, by the 21st century knowledge of its failures and by some other modern constitutions.
Vermont can probably negotiate a prevention of the fleeing of Loyalists and the confiscation of their properties, leaving the US in a much better economic shape at the end of the war. They'd probably make too much demands regarding the end of slavery and end up being left independent of the new US due to refusal to compromise on moral issues where a compromise is necessary to keep the southern colonies.
Knowledge of the future would make the founders choose a neutral ground capital outside of Philadelphia earlier, but further north than Washington DC due to having more northern borders. Perhaps the area where Pennsylvania, New Jersey and Delaware all meet?
A new constitution would be adopted early, influenced both by the US constitution, the subsequent amendments, by the 21st century knowledge of its failures and by some other modern constitutions.
Up, until the late 1800s, almost all farm work was done with oxen or people power. Horses were for riding for the vast majority who could afford them. The actual "horses as tractors" period was much shorter than people think, and was very quickly replaced with tractors.
Horses were the equivalent of a commuter vehicle at this time.
As someone who worked in historical farming as a job, unless you have someone who very specifically knows how to train and drive a horse team for farming, you are SOL using them for tractor uses. Unless there is a clear collection of patents or physical examples of horse tractor equipment, it would be very difficult to build new versions.
However, as cavalry is still a bit part of armies at this time, the horses could be good for those tactics.