Uniting All Under Heaven (Kingdom AU CK2 Quest)

if someone else knows more about these four religions in the context of the manga, let me know and I may be persuaded

Yeah, I can tell you now that religion does not come up much within Kingdom. Only recently, as in the last few chapters, has anything remotely involving it came up, and that was mostly about how the King Ei Sei believed that a united China should be ruled. Which was under a legalistic perspective where all were equal under the law and that even the conquered would be treated no differently than the conquering Qin. Though he also seems to reference Confucianism when he states that humanity is light in his argument with Ryofui, so I am unsure of what that says about his religious beliefs.

Your piety option is not mutually exclusive, you are not becoming a disciple of the religion you are learning about. You can eventually study all four if you want to. Right now you are simply choosing a philosophy which you believe would benefit you to learn. You might be able to later dedicate yourself to one of these philosophies, or even form your own if you have a high enough piety, but that time is not now.

Also, in regards to Taoism and Confucianism. Keep in mind that both of them are in their early stages so what you know of them now will not be what they are currently in the quest. For example, Taoism is very different from how it is today in that it hasn't formed an organized religion yet and only two of its important texts have been written, the Tao Te Ching and the I Ching.

Just something to let you all know.

[X] Continue with Sword

I am not sure if you meant for this to be a double down or not, because while you can do double training with the sword, the second time will have a higher difficulty chance than the first.
 
[X] Plan For The Absolute

Looks good to me.

Has everthing i want in it. The only thing i don´t like is the two hobbys (they are going to eat time not only now, but also in the future when we want to get better at it).
 
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@Japanime, yeah I was planning on Double Downing on it mostly because we might not be able to get a good enough roll for the first one. Not to mention that if we do somehow manage to get double benefits for it, well then shit. We'd be ripping things apart in our first fight.

Nothing says "boost my army's morale" like being a monster on the battlefield
 
@Japanime, yeah I was planning on Double Downing on it mostly because we might not be able to get a good enough roll for the first one. Not to mention that if we do somehow manage to get double benefits for it, well then shit. We'd be ripping things apart in our first fight.

Nothing says "boost my army's morale" like being a monster on the battlefield

That works for me, I was just unsure what your vote was trying to aim for.

If you get another crit though...well I'm glad that you will have plenty of worthy enemies.
 
Your piety option is not mutually exclusive, you are not becoming a disciple of the religion you are learning about. You can eventually study all four if you want to. Right now you are simply choosing a philosophy which you believe would benefit you to learn. You might be able to later dedicate yourself to one of these philosophies, or even form your own if you have a high enough piety, but that time is not now.
Good to know. In that case, I wouldn't object to swapping out my Piety vote for something else. Legalism, for instance, would help us ingratiate ourselves with our peers and other nobles in Qin, since Legalism has the greatest support in our own kingdom. On the other hand, I do like Confucianism's boost to our interactions with commoners -- especially if we're 'exploring the city' for random encounters, that bonus will become increasingly useful. I'll keep it as-is for now, but I'm much more willing to change if someone has strong feelings on the matter.
 
The only thing i don´t like is the two hobbys (they are going to eat time not only now, but also in the future when we want to get better at it).
My hope for picking up two hobbies this early on, is that it would allow us to familiarize ourselves with both disciplines so that in future, even if we specialize in Engineering (most likely), we're still capable of working with metal, we still instinctively understand the strengths and limits of metal as a material, and we can borrow insights and techniques from the one to apply to the other. I think that would be a lot harder to do if we only developed one hobby then much later in life started working on a second.

So yes, it is time-consuming, but I'd prefer to spend the time on it while we're still young.
 
Does [INSERT INTENSE FEELINGS FOR THE MATTER] count as a valid attempt to change your mind @Publicola ?
I was looking for more along the lines of "These are all the reasons why we desperately need to secure our position with the Qin bureaucracy first and I will not vote for any Plan that does not provide for that", but sure, whatever floats your boat. :p

<strong feeling intensifies>
 
My hope for picking up two hobbies this early on, is that it would allow us to familiarize ourselves with both disciplines so that in future, even if we specialize in Engineering (most likely), we're still capable of working with metal, we still instinctively understand the strengths and limits of metal as a material, and we can borrow insights and techniques from the one to apply to the other. I think that would be a lot harder to do if we only developed one hobby then much later in life started working on a second.

So yes, it is time-consuming, but I'd prefer to spend the time on it while we're still young.

I vote for the Architecture and Engineering combo for a reason. The Synergie is much better than Engineering and Metalworking.

The first helps us when we siege citys and helps us to build our own fortifications in way that we could´t do without that combo.
The latter is not nearly as good, because first metal is more than just a bit expensive in that time. To work it is time consuming and to learn how to do it right takes decades.
Futhermore i don´t think that metalworking will help that much and seems to me more like a wasted action if you don´t do it to the end.
 
Yeah, I can tell you now that religion does not come up much within Kingdom. Only recently, as in the last few chapters, has anything remotely involving it came up, and that was mostly about how the King Ei Sei believed that a united China should be ruled. Which was under a legalistic perspective where all were equal under the law and that even the conquered would be treated no differently than the conquering Qin. Though he also seems to reference Confucianism when he states that humanity is light in his argument with Ryofui, so I am unsure of what that says about his religious beliefs.

Your piety option is not mutually exclusive, you are not becoming a disciple of the religion you are learning about. You can eventually study all four if you want to. Right now you are simply choosing a philosophy which you believe would benefit you to learn. You might be able to later dedicate yourself to one of these philosophies, or even form your own if you have a high enough piety, but that time is not now.

Also, in regards to Taoism and Confucianism. Keep in mind that both of them are in their early stages so what you know of them now will not be what they are currently in the quest. For example, Taoism is very different from how it is today in that it hasn't formed an organized religion yet and only two of its important texts have been written, the Tao Te Ching and the I Ching.
Helping to clarify(being raised as nominally a Taoist).

Chinese religion is a pretty big blend:
-Confuscianism is the cultural moral code. It lays no claims to the supernatural, only that this is the basic nature of humanity, and that we should nurture it. Nearly everyone follows it to some extent, though, as someone blatantly in violation(kinslaying, treason or rebellion) are simply not honorable to associate with.
--Ancestor worship is tied to it for obvious reasons of filial piety, it's very important to keep track of and paying respects to all your forebears, and to make sure that your descendants keep the torch going.

-Legalism/Mohism is something closer to the code of chivalry or the Hippocratic Oath. It's something only really held by scholars and nobility(aka the people who advise the laws and set the laws). It's promoted for the purpose of bringing order to a chaotic world, as an entirely practical element. Both schools lay claim to "this is how we fix the world".

-Taoism is the belief in the natural and supernatural world, how to influence it, and how to deal with it influencing you. It contains much of the foundations of chinese astronomy, weather forecasting, chemistry, metallurgy, herbology, architecture etc.
--This early in the timeline, it had not yet picked up a lot of the later animistic baggage and deification, but while the philosophy itself is only really dedicated to by academics and the elite, the practical gains of someone making a study of things like predicting when floods happen and things of everyday value like building your homes in ways that raiders will find difficult to attack(this advice survives to the modern day in the form of Feng Shui, but originally it's immensely practical to have a wall just inside your main gate and avoid having roads leading directly to your door, not because it stops ghost intruders, but because it prevents raiders from just charging into your open courtyard before you can muster a defense) or treating illnesses...well that sort of thing makes for happy peasants believing in taoist sorcery/miracles.

Most of the common people simultanously believe in Confuscianism and Taoism. Buddhism hadn't arrived yet, or they'd believe in all three at once.
 
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@veekie I like your plan, but any chance that you could change to learning about Legalism or Confusianism?

I just feel that we could get more from them than from other religions.
 
Confuscianism is the cultural moral code
Legalism/Mohism is something closer to the code of chivalry or the Hippocratic Oath
Taoism is the belief in the natural and supernatural world, how to influence it, and how to deal with it influencing you
I suppose my question for @Japanime would be: how much of this will be incorporated into the quest? As Skjadir points out:
Also from the rewards taoism and confucianism are almost the same.

And as you yourself indicated:
Your piety option is not mutually exclusive, you are not becoming a disciple of the religion you are learning about. You can eventually study all four if you want to. Right now you are simply choosing a philosophy which you believe would benefit you to learn. You might be able to later dedicate yourself to one of these philosophies, or even form your own if you have a high enough piety, but that time is not now.

So the difference between the four philosophies is at this point mostly related to mechanics -- and Confucianism gives the same mechanical bonuses but without the drawback of being unpopular in our home kingdom of Qin, as Taoism is.

That said, I'm not sure the Piety vote is a hill I wish to die on, and I have indicated my willingness to change that vote if voters feel strongly about it.


As for @Skjadir, I haven't forgotten about your earlier post.
I vote for the Architecture and Engineering combo for a reason. The Synergy is much better than Engineering and Metalworking.

The first helps us when we siege citys and helps us to build our own fortifications in way that we could´t do without that combo.
The latter is not nearly as good, because first metal is more than just a bit expensive in that time. To work it is time consuming and to learn how to do it right takes decades.
Futhermore i don´t think that metalworking will help that much and seems to me more like a wasted action if you don´t do it to the end.
So pretty much everyone's in agreement, that engineering is the obvious pick for our first hobby.

My initial reasoning for picking 'metalworking' was the prospect of designing new & improved weaponry -- perhaps including rockets, hopefully including the stirrup, definitely including some of the more advanced weapons and military tech we can borrow OOC from other cultures around the world.

I agree, however, that if metals are scarce & expensive, and if the metalworking skill take ages to develop fully, then it might be better to pick something else. Japanime, can you clarify?

I also agree that picking Architecture as our second option would open a lot of doors for fortification & building construction, which would give us a major defensive bonus. Plus we could make things pretty, which gives us a cultural edge on everyone else....

I'm going to be afk for the rest of the day, but I'll continue to think about it, and I look forward to hearing others' thoughts.
 
[X] Plan Great Wall

-[X] Continue Training with the Sword
-[X] Read the Art of War
-[X] Horseback Riding

Mostly self explanatory. I prefer Art of War over Go, because increased Martial and tactical aptitude will make us better able to use the advanced strategies unlocked by Go. Basics first, gotta walk before you can run.

-[X] Rhetoric Training (Persuasion)
-[X] Rhetoric Training (Oratory)

Developing a good relationship with our fellow nobles and future colleagues is critical, and I want our diplomacy as high as possible before we go for it.

-[X] Managing Your Finances
-[X] Demesne Development

We're a noble, we need to learn how nobles use money before we branch out into merchant stuff.

-[X] Stealth
-[X] Underworld Knowledge (Assassins)

Stealth is very useful, both personally and in conjunction with our Martial. I chose Assassins because it seems like the most important thing to know about, though I'm not married to the idea.

-[X] Mohism

This seems like it would be the most useful to learn early, as we'll have more time to use that bonus to learning about fortifications and sieges, synergising with our existing boosts. We can grab a second philosophy after this, as we're currently like 5, and we're not liable to be dealing with bureaucrats and peasantry just yet.

-[X] Education

Locked is locked.

-[X] Engineering

-[X] Metalworking

-[X] Architecture

I'm going all in on personal learning. I'm not married to Metalworking, but Engineering and Architecture are great things to learn, and they mesh with Mohism very well.
 
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So the difference between the four philosophies is at this point mostly related to mechanics -- and Confucianism gives the same mechanical bonuses but without the drawback of being unpopular in our home kingdom of Qin, as Taoism is.
...but Taoism isn't unpopular? It's actually stated to be quite popular amongst the people, but rulers don't tend to pursue it because it recommends against excessive capital punishment and aggressive expansionism, and advises to focus on enriching your fief/measured expansion.

Not that they pursue Confucianism with much enthusiasm either, but they are in theory in favor of a philosophy that says to obey your boss is virtuous when they seek to be the boss.
 
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