Traveller charted space (traveller OTU) vs 40k

[andrewza]

The charted space The Traveller Map is drawn in to the 40k univers and is now next to the Tau.

All kingdoms, empires and nastions of charted space will remain independent from each other but ally against the larger threats that now surround them. Other than the k'kree but no one will cry if the militant vegans get wiped out.
The few remaining ancients (there are two known) will still stay hidden but understand the threat and help the charted space in subtle ways.


Win for charted space is the 3rd imperium remain independent and force peace treats with all facstion they can be at peace with.

The big issue here is the fact traveller jump drive is so slow and zero FTL comms.

 

[maskedanddanger]

The main thing to consider in ISOTing any faction into Imperial Space is "how quickly can the faction deal with the new status quo of the Imperium, Chaos, and the alien factions that can't be reasoned with like the Orcs, Tyranids, and Dark Eldar?"

The Third Imperium, being largely decentralized, would be in for a struggle because culturally it is close enough to the IoM that the Imperium's usual methods of reintegrating diasporan planets into their fold would allow them to go through their normal procedures: either slow integration via the Ordo Dialogos or quick at the end of a lasgun.

Militarily, the Third Imperium and it's fellow travellers (hah) would be able to put up good showings vs anything that the IoM can throw down, but the IoM always has resource and speed advantages.

All of this before you think about billions of psychics, like the Zhodani, who are used to a relatively "clean" noosphere getting instantly bombarded with Warp Bullshit (tm). I expect the Zhodani Consulate to collapse within days.

Mano e Mano, the Third Imperium rinces the Imperium of Man. However, the changed metaphysics of the setting have a very good chance of leaving Traveller looking unrecognizable by the end because they are not prepared for the constant array of bullshit.

On a plus, the Third Imperium would definitely be willing to make the Tau junior partners like the Aslanti and Vargyr.

 

[andrewza]

adpstiom tobthe new threat is the big danger.

how many traveller planets would want to join the IoM though. They would be giving a lot up unless they join up under special conditions. And that decentralised command might actually aid the imperium since they wont need some high command at capital input and can act on there own discretion. The 3rd impurem all so has engramed operatives that can take over a person to assess and deal with new strange events. This will give a rather consistent response since it will often be the same person handling every first contact.

Yes it will be a fight against a larger more strategically mobile force and I can see the IoM taking many worlds. I cam all so see the IoM go strait for a high technology industrial world and get bogged down.

So anti psionic tech is a thing and used but yes I can see the zhodian having a major issue. The 3rd imperium has a much tighter grip and a munch bigger focus on countering psionics than using them.

Yes it would be a major cataclysm. I did say both known ancients are active to. They might not rival chaos in the warp but will be able to deal with any crazy BS that the warp spits out.


Issue is both the Tau and imperium will try to absorb each other and start a fight. Though I can see both absorbing some of each other.

 

[maskedanddanger]

adpstiom tobthe new threat is the big danger.

how many traveller planets would want to join the IoM though. They would be giving a lot up unless they join up under special conditions. And that decentralised command might actually aid the imperium since they wont need some high command at capital input and can act on there own discretion. The 3rd impurem all so has engramed operatives that can take over a person to assess and deal with new strange events. This will give a rather consistent response since it will often be the same person handling every first contact.

Click to shrink...

Want isn't really a factor.

Let's say you live out on the frontier, somewhere like the Sword Worlds.

A dreadnought shaped like a cathedral appears in the sky, run by a man with a very big hat with five names and a "I can do what I want" charter. He trades beads with you, you think that was weird, and then he goes and sells the information on where your planet is to the Ministorum for a tidy profit. If your planet is lucky, that's that, your planet is misfiled. If you're not, then a decade down the line ships coming to demand the Imperial tithe come. They burn your religious idols, shoot your defense force, and steal your sons and daughters, install whatever wealthy family surrendered first as planetary governor, and you find your grandchildren are being worked to death as your planet's biosphere is destroyed in order to feed resources to some foundry world that will not receive what it being taken for a generation.

This happens again and again until the information reaches a sector lord who is able to send a ship to warn the Third Imperium. The fastest ship possible would be a Jump 6 drive, meaning it can travel 6 parsecs per jump with each jump taking a week, but X-boats are generally Jump-4 and play relay. The Traveller Wiki says that it takes 4 years for an X-boat relay to get from Regina, the trade hub of the Spinward Marches, to the Imperial Core.

Eventually, the Third Imperium and allies will get their shit together, but the main factor is time. Traveller does not have FTL comms, and it's FTL is slow.

Everyone other then the Imperium of Man (and Tau) in 40k is fast. Tyranids can devour entire systems in the time it would take to warn them it was coming, Dark Eldar can wander out of their black city basically at random, Necrons can go "I don't remember a planet being here" and delete it if they're having a good day. And of course, Chaos.

I'm not saying it's an impossible task, just one that is stacked against Traveller's setting. Teaming up with the Tau can delay, but 40k's gimmick is that everyone's on a doom spiral, and Traveller doesn't have a lot of hard counters to the things that make them succeptable to the same.

 

[andrewza]

So navy couriers are jump 5 or jump 6 and there are jump 7 ships so the news would travel a bit fast once a naval base gets word. All each sector is able to defend it self with out the ships held in resver are not concentrated at core only

the sword worlds are not defenceless and the slow moving imperium means it may take time for a large force to be musted. the 5th frontier war put the sword world navy at

battleship 1st clall 21
Battleship Second Class 4
Battle cruiser 7
Command cruiser 15
Heavy cruiser 34
missile cruiser 7
light cruiser 22
Heavy destroyer 71
destroyer 137
missile destroyer 14
frigate 75
para/raider 8

This ignores civilian ships that can be pressed into combat and non-jump defence ships. And even though most of this fleet could not tough a rouge trader a sword world battle cruiser for example still has a meson spinal gun

no one is winning 40k. it is more can the charted space even survives in it. Sure a dark Eldar raid on some agri world could not be stopped but the IoM can not stop the dark Eldar from raiding random agri worlds and a 3rd imperium Agri world could put up a better fight after those Eldar land on the world.

 

[Vehrec]

So navy couriers are jump 5 or jump 6 and there are jump 7 ships so the news would travel a bit fast once a naval base gets word. All each sector is able to defend it self with out the ships held in resver are not concentrated at core only

the sword worlds are not defenceless and the slow moving imperium means it may take time for a large force to be musted. the 5th frontier war put the sword world navy at

battleship 1st clall 21
Battleship Second Class 4
Battle cruiser 7
Command cruiser 15
Heavy cruiser 34
missile cruiser 7
light cruiser 22
Heavy destroyer 71
destroyer 137
missile destroyer 14
frigate 75
para/raider 8

This ignores civilian ships that can be pressed into combat and non-jump defence ships. And even though most of this fleet could not tough a rouge trader a sword world battle cruiser for example still has a meson spinal gun

no one is winning 40k. it is more can the charted space even survives in it. Sure a dark Eldar raid on some agri world could not be stopped but the IoM can not stop the dark Eldar from raiding random agri worlds and a 3rd imperium Agri world could put up a better fight after those Eldar land on the world.

Click to shrink...

That's maybe a sector fleet of the Imperium though. And the imperium of Man's battleships are like, a thousand times bigger? 200,000 tons for a battleship is going to put it at 1/25th the mass of a Cobra-class destroyer, with a Luna-class cruiser being 140 times the mass of a 1st class battleship.

And the Imperium is by far, the least worrisome thing around because it's so big dumb and slow. Tyranids, Necrons, Votann mining clans who will stake your planet and crack it open to mine the core, even Tau-these are all serious space powers who have ships so big it's unclear if meson-weapons, normally the go-to answer to Traveler space war against other factions, would work!

 

[andrewza]

That's maybe a sector fleet of the Imperium though. And the imperium of Man's battleships are like, a thousand times bigger? 200,000 tons for a battleship is going to put it at 1/25th the mass of a Cobra-class destroyer, with a Luna-class cruiser being 140 times the mass of a 1st class battleship.

And the Imperium is by far, the least worrisome thing around because it's so big dumb and slow. Tyranids, Necrons, Votann mining clans who will stake your planet and crack it open to mine the core, even Tau-these are all serious space powers who have ships so big it's unclear if meson-weapons, normally the go-to answer to Traveler space war against other factions, would work!

Click to shrink...

The sword world fleet is all so half the size of a 3rd imperium sector fleet and 3rd imperium planets if wealthy all so often have there own powerful fleets. All so IoM has more ships but it cant just pull ships away from other important jobs.

The size difference between the ships is big but ships are often giant frying cities. For there size a 40k ship does not have a lot of guns. A 100 000 ton battle ship would often have 500 guns and be able to fire 600 missile per volley. The big trump card traveller ships have of course is the meson weapons that ignore shields and armour and detonate in side a ship and all so give every one not protected lethal levels of radiation.

so yes if a rouge trader does rock up and act dumb I do not think his big ship will ensure he survives. Though he could if he is smart get a lot out of it.

And yes there are big issues than the IoM the biggest would be the necrons once they find out the third imperium can transfer a digital mind into a organic body.

 

[Vehrec]

Those are the same guns that appear on 10 ton fighters and freighters, because traveler is a system made for RPG play and all the ships are built to the same scale. An imperial warship might have thousands of autocannons for point-defense, or hundreds of Vulcan Mega-bolters, and it's main guns are going to toss shells at least the size of a bus. A nova cannon shell or a torpedo is the size of a small skyscraper.

The problem with meson guns is well, you're trying to kill an elephant with a needle. You can pierce the skin, even the organs, but can you do lethal damage before the elephant clobbers you with it's trunk and tusks? The bulk of 40k ships will provide quite a lot of protection from radiation simply by thickness of material, and size of the mass to irradiate. And Void Shields don't work like Traveler shields do so they might absorb the relativistic particles (which do exist) when they strike.

 

[andrewza]

Those are the same guns that appear on 10 ton fighters and freighters, because traveler is a system made for RPG play and all the ships are built to the same scale. An imperial warship might have thousands of autocannons for point-defense, or hundreds of Vulcan Mega-bolters, and it's main guns are going to toss shells at least the size of a bus. A nova cannon shell or a torpedo is the size of a small skyscraper.

The problem with meson guns is well, you're trying to kill an elephant with a needle. You can pierce the skin, even the organs, but can you do lethal damage before the elephant clobbers you with it's trunk and tusks? The bulk of 40k ships will provide quite a lot of protection from radiation simply by thickness of material, and size of the mass to irradiate. And Void Shields don't work like Traveler shields do so they might absorb the relativistic particles (which do exist) when they strike.

Click to shrink...

A 10 ton fighter can not carry a barrbet and it is smaller than a bay weapon system. The larger bay is 500 tons and the smallest spinal is 3500 tons. The new rules have very much made large ship and capital war ships more powerful so they stand out. Yes a smaller ship can carry one but it is now built around that weapon.

Meson dont pierce armour through being realtvistic, that's railgun and particel weapons. Mesons ignor armour and shield due to how mesons work. And yes a 40k ship is big but mesons can be pretty accurate where they explode accurate enough to explode inside a gun deck or power plant maybe the bridge. So it might be a needle but it is going through the eye in to the brain

 

[Vehrec]

A 500 ton weapons bay (I don't see 'larger' on the wiki descriptions of ships, I just see 'hardpoints' or 'spinal hardpoints' on battleships) is still quite small compared to something that shoots houses at you. A 3500 ton gun is maybe equal to a macrocannon, you know, the things imperial ships mount dozens of in their broadsides to rapid fire barrages of shells, lasers, or plasma at the enemy?

No, you're not shooting the 'eye into the brain' you're shooting blindly at a behemoth you don't understand. And it's shooting back. Meson's don't actually ignore armor and shields 'due to how mesons work' there are very specific reasons and they do physically exist. So since they are actual particles traveling at relativistic speeds, by their own in-universe descriptions, there's no reason they *shouldn't* trip the void shields and be shunted into warp space. But even if you are hitting an Imperial ship on every shot, the problem is that lots of things stop radiation. Things like, oh, metal bulkheads several meters thick. Which these ships have, so you would need to shoot them a LOT to kill enough crew to leave the ship a hulk.

 

[Ford Prefect]

Meson's don't actually ignore armor and shields 'due to how mesons work' there are very specific reasons and they do physically exist. So since they are actual particles traveling at relativistic speeds, by their own in-universe descriptions, there's no reason they *shouldn't* trip the void shields and be shunted into warp space.

Click to shrink...

This runs both ways: sometimes you can just drive through void shields, they don't stop visible light, etc. It's possible that they could stop a meson gun but given that even in 40k all kinds of stuff just sort of bypasses void shields it wouldn't be terribly surprising if they couldn't.

 

[andrewza]

A 500 ton weapons bay (I don't see 'larger' on the wiki descriptions of ships, I just see 'hardpoints' or 'spinal hardpoints' on battleships) is still quite small compared to something that shoots houses at you. A 3500 ton gun is maybe equal to a macrocannon, you know, the things imperial ships mount dozens of in their broadsides to rapid fire barrages of shells, lasers, or plasma at the enemy?

No, you're not shooting the 'eye into the brain' you're shooting blindly at a behemoth you don't understand. And it's shooting back. Meson's don't actually ignore armor and shields 'due to how mesons work' there are very specific reasons and they do physically exist. So since they are actual particles traveling at relativistic speeds, by their own in-universe descriptions, there's no reason they *shouldn't* trip the void shields and be shunted into warp space. But even if you are hitting an Imperial ship on every shot, the problem is that lots of things stop radiation. Things like, oh, metal bulkheads several meters thick. Which these ships have, so you would need to shoot them a LOT to kill enough crew to leave the ship a hulk.

Click to shrink...

Small does not mean weak. Seeing how 5 3rd imperium warships where able to remove all life from a planet with out the need of there spinal and those 5 ships combined where smaller than a IoM ship I dont see why the size matters. A traveller ship is firing a rail gun every 6 seconds where the IoM use manual loaders on some ships.

The traveller wiki is a bit out dated. Ships have hardpoints but different weapons have weight requirements alongside the hardpoint and these hard points are for ship weapons. You could strap even more vechile scale weapons but they only use full in dogfight range.

In traveller mesom ignore armor and shields, this is how they can shoot through moons and fire from platforms buried kilometers under ground. There is nothing showing a void shield can stop them and there are plenty of showings of similar weapons ignoring void shields.

The radiation is just a after effect of the meson. I bring it up mostly since 40k crew are not seen wearing any protections.


All so ships are massive and there bridge and gun bays are kind of easy to figure out. And of course it wont be easy both sides would take losses the point more is if a lone rouge trader rocks up he will end up dead if he starts being to stupid or aggressive. I can see rouge traders exploiting charted space but he would need to be smart about it.