The United States annexes Japan after World War II

[King Washington]

[Just to clarify this is purely a hypothetical, I don't support this blatant act of imperialism.]

By act of ASB/ROB, immediately after Japan's unconditional surrender the plans of the United States government shifts towards outright annexation, with Japan being cut up into american territories with plans for them to be directly brought in as states at some distant point in the future. This is generally supported by the american public (again, ROB/ASBs are involved). The entire imperial family gets exiled to some isolated part of Alaska and barred from returning to Japan ever again.

The mind control of the American government lasts until the mid-80s (or if the United States itself somehow collapses).

So realistically does this just turned into some sort of american version of French Algeria with all that entails? How does the inevitable attempts to "americanized" them effect to japanese as a culture? How bloody and widespread is the inevitable resistance to the occupation likely to be?

How does this likely effect internal american politics and the wider Cold War?

 

[Cybandeath]

A more realistic way of getting what you want here is an extended occupation of japan and greater emphasis on the whole MacArthur American Shogun thing with eventually an effective shogunate again serving as a colonial government with the US THAN being ASB mind controlled to make Japan long term annexed under the pretext of being unable to manage themselves. Essentially similar to the times Latin America cant manage itself only with a more direct long-term incorporation in mind with a more purposeful infusion of American culture into Japan possibly with an emphasis on older more traditional culture as well thats useful in the pacification process and as concessions to hardcore nationalist such as perhaps bringing back at least the status once granted to Samurai clans although in practice being a meaningless title it would have cultural implication and could be used to help keep the rest of Japan in line through management of the Clans.

It may also prove wise to emphasize the spiritual role of the Emperor over the rulership role further than ever as a sort of pope like figure with even less actual power as well utilizing religion to help keep Japan in line during the vital transformation of culture that would be rapidly happening especially with the willing help of the Emperor who lacked any real desire for power at this time.

These two aspects in my opinion would be vital in helping mold and keep control of the rapid cultural shift Japan was about to undertake and make a actual annexation of Japan even partly possible.

That being said communism with the Soviets gathering dissidents to combat American Imperialism would probably show up in Japan again properly with a notable change in a resumed worship of the Emperor similar to the religious nature of many communist movements in the middle east in continued veneration and use of Islam.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

[Just to clarify this is purely a hypothetical, I don't support this blatant act of imperialism.]

By act of ASB/ROB, immediately after Japan's unconditional surrender the plans of the United States government shifts towards outright annexation, with Japan being cut up into american territories with plans for them to be directly brought in as states at some distant point in the future. This is generally supported by the american public (again, ROB/ASBs are involved). The entire imperial family gets exiled to some isolated part of Alaska and barred from returning to Japan ever again.

The mind control of the American government lasts until the mid-80s (or if the United States itself somehow collapses).

So realistically does this just turned into some sort of american version of French Algeria with all that entails? How does the inevitable attempts to "americanized" them effect to japanese as a culture? How bloody and widespread is the inevitable resistance to the occupation likely to be?

How does this likely effect internal american politics and the wider Cold War?

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Does the US abandon the Phillipines too? It would seem pretty strange for them to abandon it while also annexing Japan.

 

[King Washington]

Does the US abandon the Phillipines too? It would seem pretty strange for them to abandon it while also annexing Japan.

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Yes they still let the Philippines go.

 

[Spartakrod]

America basically instantly loses any credibility it has as a force for liberation in Asia as well as any hope of a quiet occupation.

Also giving the vote to 70+ million Japanese people would cause very funni things to American race relations and would basically destroy the current American party system.

The UK and France are considerably more likely to take this as a carte blanche to do whatever they want to hold onto their own Empires and tell America to piss off if they try to interfere. Potentially to the point of outright fissioning as London recategorises America as simply the next would be usurper; especially if America doesn't let the UK have any of the spoils.

The Soviets are alarmed by this inexplicable act of imperialism and likely put greater priority on Asia while also butterflying the Sino-Soviet split (also as America will be too busy with the worst insurgency it has ever dealt with America's unlikely to get involved in Korea).

 

[Spherical_Light]

There are many, many logistical issues with this scenario.

Distance is the biggest one.

Cultural integration is another wasp's nest entirely, as Japanese resentment will be a great deal more prevalent than original time frame.

I've read various threads on this in the past and generally, Japan is better off as its own country in the end.

Not to rain on the idea, but.... Yeah... It is far fetched.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

America basically instantly loses any credibility it has as a force for liberation in Asia as well as any hope of a quiet occupation.

Also giving the vote to 70+ million Japanese people would cause very funni things to American race relations and would basically destroy the current American party system.

Click to shrink...

There are many, many logistical issues with this scenario.

Distance is the biggest one.

Cultural integration is another wasp's nest entirely, as Japanese resentment will be a great deal more prevalent than original time frame.

I've read various threads on this in the past and generally, Japan is better off as its own country in the end.

Not to rain on the idea, but.... Yeah... It is far fetched.

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The only way it's remotely plausible is if no nukes are dropped and Operation Downfall is rightly seen as idiotic and a waste of lives, and instead Operation Starvation continues indefinitely until Japan finally surrenders after losing an enormous percentage of its total population and is in total political and social chaos.

Annexing a fully functional and united Japan just doesn't make sense for the US.

The only path for THAT would be if the US just kept the Philippines and also annexed japan, and just said, 'We imperialism now!'.

The US in that case would probably steal most of the colonies from the other collapsing Empires going forward.

 

[Spherical_Light]

Agreed with above person. Granted, even that has its own set of issues.

Japan kinda got into friendship with British Empire, everything from Navy ways to how the drive on the roads.

Part of the logistical nightmare would be enforcing the new method of driving...

"Drive American, don't drive British!" lol aka, drive on the RIGHT side of the road....

And converting to miles etc from the metric...

One of the few down the road benefits I could see would be a better awareness of earthquakes and if America didn't mess up too much with the cultural integration, I could see more engineers coming out of this.

I think the original negative still stands in the form of sheer distance. the American Public would likely prefer Japan to be re-integrated as a nation to itself in the long run. "We're here. One land. They are all the way over there, what's the point of keeping them tethered to us?"

I wouldn't be surprised if Hawaii went through some of this controversy before upgrading to statehood. I think I've maybe seen one Hawaii License plate on a car ever here on the main America myself...

Or, there's an alternative to that even. American basically pushes Philippines and Japan together as ONE state/Territory due to effective general ignorance, categorizing them as the Island Territories or Islandia the state. That would be a mess of itself, but interesting to read as a story.

How would the Japanese and Philipinno/e/s react to being lumped in the same kettle so to speak? Certainly not well....

 

[King Washington]

Not to rain on the idea, but.... Yeah... It is far fetched.

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The only way it's remotely plausible is if no nukes are dropped and Operation Downfall is rightly seen as idiotic and a waste of lives, and instead Operation Starvation continues indefinitely until Japan finally surrenders after losing an enormous percentage of its total population and is in total political and social chaos.

Annexing a fully functional and united Japan just doesn't make sense for the US.

The only path for THAT would be if the US just kept the Philippines and also annexed japan, and just said, 'We imperialism now!'.

The US in that case would probably steal most of the colonies from the other collapsing Empires going forward.

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You guys realize I posted this in Weird History for a reason, right? Literally what is the point of bringing up the scenario being impossible under normal circumstances given I specifically invoked an act of ASB/ROB?

 

[Cybandeath]

America basically instantly loses any credibility it has as a force for liberation in Asia as well as any hope of a quiet occupation.

Also giving the vote to 70+ million Japanese people would cause very funni things to American race relations and would basically destroy the current American party system.

The UK and France are considerably more likely to take this as a carte blanche to do whatever they want to hold onto their own Empires and tell America to piss off if they try to interfere. Potentially to the point of outright fissioning as London recategorises America as simply the next would be usurper; especially if America doesn't let the UK have any of the spoils.

The Soviets are alarmed by this inexplicable act of imperialism and likely put greater priority on Asia while also butterflying the Sino-Soviet split (also as America will be too busy with the worst insurgency it has ever dealt with America's unlikely to get involved in Korea).

Click to shrink...

Agree with much of this except the sino soviet split part as from my understanding of the history politics etc involved the increased focus and overbearing nature of a shift to asia on the soviets part would actually accelerate the Sino soviet split but would be much more mild in less China warms up to America and more China goes the way of yugoslavia and tells to soviets to fuck off, likely sticking harder to Maoism after his eventually death.

Ironically this results in a stronger North Korea who would 100% play both the CCP and Soviets off each other for further aid, economic deals, alongside extra military supplies and expertise which will cause wacky things in South Korea as North Korea had a better economy up into the mid 70s and all this extra effort from Russia and China could prolong that and help properly industrialize and modernize North Korea at least until after the Soviets Collapse as I can see Korea easily start to fall behind afterwards but would easily have the potential to lack the whole famines problem as much of that is from a lack of modern agricultural machinery., with simular problems in their mining industry which is reliant on literal pickaxes.

Quite occupation I also think would continue as long as it went down the path I mentioned earlier with a "extended occupation" etc but I dont see it being AS quite neccessarily.

 

[Spartakrod]

Agree with much of this except the sino soviet split part as from my understanding of the history politics etc involved the increased focus and overbearing nature of a shift to asia on the soviets part would actually accelerate the Sino soviet split but would be much more mild in less China warms up to America and more China goes the way of yugoslavia and tells to soviets to fuck off, likely sticking harder to Maoism after his eventually death.

Ironically this results in a stronger North Korea who would 100% play both the CCP and Soviets off each other for further aid, economic deals, alongside extra military supplies and expertise which will cause wacky things in South Korea as North Korea had a better economy up into the mid 70s and all this extra effort from Russia and China could prolong that and help properly industrialize and modernize North Korea at least until after the Soviets Collapse as I can see Korea easily start to fall behind afterwards but would easily have the potential to lack the whole famines problem as much of that is from a lack of modern agricultural machinery., with simular problems in their mining industry which is reliant on literal pickaxes.

Quite population I also think would continue as long as it went down the path I mentioned earlier with a "extended occupation" etc

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I don't think there would be a South Korea, the North would just annex the South and America would be too busy trying to contain the eternal insurgency in Japan and would be too distrusted by Asia to bother intervening in the Korean peninsula. Which makes Korea completely unrecognisable as the Kim family only became so predominant in North Korean politics due to the Korean war basically wiping out all possible opposition; leading to Korea being a likely much more boring country. Though likely a major power as Chinese and Soviet investment and trade into it would be extensive as a counterbalance to American Japan and the two koreas joined together have a great deal of resources, educated personnel, and a merger of the great industrial base of the North and the Agricultural heartland of the south.

The complete collapse of trust in America would also likely lead to America having very little soft power in the rest of Asia. Everyone from India to Indonesia would be more trusting of the Soviets to finance decolonisation efforts against Western Europe which would likely further entrench itself to try and hold onto its colonies since if America is allowed to conquer whatever it likes; they have no reason to complain when European countries commit war crimes to hold onto their most lucrative colonies.

The collapse of the Warsaw Pact was down to very specific circumstances rather particular to the exact sequence of events that played out in the 80s OTL. It's by no means inevitable and with America likely being left something of a pariah state with no trust or confidence by the global South and being stuck in a brutal quagmire of trying to forcibly Americanise a country with half as many people as itself to make them not merely American aligned but outright American subjects would leave America in a more precarious spot.

This is literally the worst possible scenario for getting peace in post-war Japan. An imperial annexation of the country wins the support of virtually nobody in the country and makes an enemy of more or less the entire nation.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

I don't think there would be a South Korea, the North would just annex the South and America would be too busy trying to contain the eternal insurgency in Japan and would be too distrusted by Asia to bother intervening in the Korean peninsula. Which makes Korea completely unrecognisable as the Kim family only became so predominant in North Korean politics due to the Korean war basically wiping out all possible opposition; leading to Korea being a likely much more boring country. Though likely a major power as Chinese and Soviet investment and trade into it would be extensive as a counterbalance to American Japan and the two koreas joined together have a great deal of resources, educated personnel, and a merger of the great industrial base of the North and the Agricultural heartland of the south.

The complete collapse of trust in America would also likely lead to America having very little soft power in the rest of Asia. Everyone from India to Indonesia would be more trusting of the Soviets to finance decolonisation efforts against Western Europe which would likely further entrench itself to try and hold onto its colonies since if America is allowed to conquer whatever it likes; they have no reason to complain when European countries commit war crimes to hold onto their most lucrative colonies.

The collapse of the Warsaw Pact was down to very specific circumstances rather particular to the exact sequence of events that played out in the 80s OTL. It's by no means inevitable and with America likely being left something of a pariah state with no trust or confidence by the global South and being stuck in a brutal quagmire of trying to forcibly Americanise a country with half as many people as itself to make them not merely American aligned but outright American subjects would leave America in a more precarious spot.

This is literally the worst possible scenario for getting peace in post-war Japan. An imperial annexation of the country wins the support of virtually nobody in the country and makes an enemy of more or less the entire nation.

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A unified communist Korea would be especially interesting if they don't go crazy and play China and the USSR off each other to develop faster than and get a higher GDP per capita than both.
The USSR will only continue to rot while China is busy smashing itself into the ground with Mao's insanity, but neither of those are neccessarily the case for Korea.

 

[Spartakrod]

With Japan essentially being a colony of America and a long, slow-burning conflict in the islands, Korea absolutely takes Japan's place as the wealthiest and most developed country in Asia. And with its industry untouched by war, Korea will likely offer to assist with developing China in exchange for more trade relations regardless of whatever the Soviets think.

So Korea and China are generally better off while Japan is likely going to be a significantly poorer and less stable part of the world for a long time.

 

[Xerres]

Pretty much the only way I can see this going is if the soviets and the maoists just win the Chinese civil war with favorable relations in like 46. with the soviets invading like Hokkaido which is beaten back by American occupation forces but stalemating in a conventional war. Used as an excuse to increase occupational forces . Only works without nuclear weapons and the soviets not declaring on Western Europe

tldr: sino-soviets control mainland asia north of the Chinese frontier and US continues pacifc occupation to prevent communism. Also ignores Nukes and Europe

 

[TaleMaster Redux]

One thing I can see is that the Partition of India never happens or is less bloody as the UK is in no hurry to decolonise unlike in OTL as the US pressure to decolonise is greatly diminished or the UK just ignore its pointing to Japan all the time.

This is important as the UK might prop up India as whole against a much more united CCP and USSR, and acknowledge Taiwan as the legitimate Chinese Government here. Might even intervene in the Sino-Indo wars to keep the balance in the region and keep China in check.

The British might even sell most of its Carriers to India and any of its nearby Nations and prevent both the Chinese and Americans from gaining a foothold in the Indian Ocean which is part of a vital global sea trade network and allows UK to exert influence in the Pacific via Australia and other nearby South-East Asian Nations.

 

[Spherical_Light]

Well, it certainly fits the section. It just seems like its doomed to fail in the long term, Japan being a permanent state/territory of the US I mean....

 

[Tahu1809]

Arguably something that might work better is garter, and earlier Japanese immigration to the US. Like 19th century Irish levels of immigration.
You would arguably get a similar cultural effect, just mines the insane imperialism. Really that does like a more interesting story. And depending on the time could lead to a funny joke about Civil Wars. "Who side was your family you on?" "In which civil war?"

 

[Xerres]

Arguably something that might work better is garter, and earlier Japanese immigration to the US. Like 19th century Irish levels of immigration.
You would arguably get a similar cultural effect, just mines the insane imperialism. Really that does like a more interesting story. And depending on the time could lead to a funny joke about Civil Wars. "Who side was your family you on?" "In which civil war?"

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im Pretty sure that the immigration thing is the unstated backstory to big hero 6. unless it takes place in the high castle timeline that is hahaha

 

[Tahu1809]

im Pretty sure that the immigration thing is the unstated backstory to big hero 6. unless it takes place in the high castle timeline that is hahaha

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Never thought about that, but that could be a logical explanation. Really My only question is what could have pushed some many people to A: cross the Pacific ocean, and B: skip Hawaii. Because historically that's were they would go...

Actually doing a bit of wiki reading historically Japanese people made up a large minority of the population of the Hawaiian Islands.
So yeah you would just need a reason why the immigrant population was bigger, and why they contained to the continent.

 

[Xerres]

Never thought about that, but that could be a logical explanation. Really My only question is what could have pushed some many people to A: cross the Pacific ocean, and B: skip Hawaii. Because historically that's were they would go...

Actually doing a bit of wiki reading historically Japanese people made up a large minority of the population of the Hawaiian Islands.
So yeah you would just need a reason why the immigrant population was bigger, and why they contained to the continent.

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Something like a major crop failure in Asia and the National Origin act(bans immigration from Asia) failing to pass could do it

 

[Guardsman_Sparky]

I don't see the US exiling the Imperial family to Alaska. For one, the IJA and the IJN were fully prepared to keep fighting even after the second Bomb was dropped on Japan; it was the Emperor who stepped in and declared that the war was over and that Japan would surrender unconditionally. Even then, elements of the IJA tried to enact a coup to kidnap the Emperor and seize control of the government, so that they could keep fighting to the death with each and every man, woman, and child. They failed because of a combination of an air raid blackout throwing them into disarray, and the people they were counting on to side with the coup staying loyal to the Emperor even under threat of horrific death. You don't punish the guy who helped end the war in favor of your side, especially when he commands such loyalty from his people *and* is being fully cooperative.

Second, MacArthur himself used the Emperor to keep Japan in check during the occupation; he would not shoot himself in the foot by exiling the Emperor and his family.

Third: why would we exile the Japanese Imperial Family, when we did no such thing to the Hawaiian royal family when the US annexed Hawaii? (Look it up, they're still around too).


As for Japan becoming a territory/state of the US, the most likely way I see that happening is if a major earthquake hit Japan shortly before or after the US occupation was set to end, with damages and casualties matching or surpassing those from the Great Kanto Earthquake of 1923 (which, incidentally, was one of the major catalysts that led to Japan going from a WWI ally to WWII enemy, and the Japanese military gaining enough political clout to more or less run the government by the 1930s).

At any given point during the occupation, there were about 1 million American troops stationed in Japan. With the military bases set away from the cities (not to mention the sailors aboard ships in harbor/at sea), the American military would survive the earthquake and its aftermath to become the largest intact organization in the Kanto region. Being the bleeding hearts that we Americans are, the US troops immediately go into search and rescue mode. As the rescue efforts proceed apace, plans to extend aid and manpower to Japan begin to be made.

And that's when politics rears its ugly head.

Some America First/McCarthyist politician gets wind of the relief plans and starts raising a stink. He, and other like-minded politicians, begin to demand an accounting of why all these resources are being set aside for non-Americans, as well as demanding that the de-occupation continues as scheduled.

And unfortunately, these politicians begin to gain momentum and support.

In a private meeting with the Japanese Emperor, the American ambassador explains what's happening in Congress, and the anti-aid politicians gaining political ground. When asked why they would rescind the aid offered for the earthquake recovery, the ambassador replies: "As ugly as it is, you guys just aren't Americans."

The Emperor gets an idea. He summons the leaders of the Diet, commanding them to petition to become a Territory of the United States, and thus become Americans. The Diet complies, because even the most ultranationalist among them isn't about to tell the Emperor "no."

And in 1952, Japan successfully petitions the US Congress to become a territory of the United States of America.

The rest, as they say, is history.

 

[Tahu1809]

And that's when politics rears its ugly head.

Some America First/McCarthyist politician gets wind of the relief plans and starts raising a stink. He, and other like-minded politicians, begin to demand an accounting of why all these resources are being set aside for non-Americans, as well as demanding that the de-occupation continues as scheduled.

And unfortunately, these politicians begin to gain momentum and support.

In a private meeting with the Japanese Emperor, the American ambassador explains what's happening in Congress. When asked why they would rescind the aid offered for the earthquake recovery, the ambassador replies: "As ugly as it is, you guys just aren't Americans."

The Emperor gets an idea. He summons the leaders of the Diet, commanding them to petition to become a Territory of the United States, and thus become Americans. The Diet complies, because even the most ultranationalist among them isn't about to tell the Emperor "no."

And in 1952, Japan successfully petitions the US Congress to become a territory of the United States of America.

The rest, as they say, is history.

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That still a big stretch. More plausible by a long shot, but still a big stretch. It would be a major black eye for the US. The country being so heartless that they would only help a broken people when they more or less ask to be conquered. You also still have the other problem of the US's allies taking this as a go ahead to hold onto their colonial holdings.

Though I can see one slogan being floated in favor of this being "We had to break it, so we gotta own it." Yes I am aware of the uncomfortable implications that phrase would bring.

I'm also now imaging decades down the line in this timeline that there is a joke that the King/Queen of England pawned off it "Amarien problem child" off to the Emperor of Japan. Likely dragging poor Canada into the joke somehow.

 

[Guardsman_Sparky]

That still a big stretch. More plausible by a long shot, but still a big stretch. It would be a major black eye for the US. The country being so heartless that they would only help a broken people when they more or less ask to be conquered.

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Ah, I unfortunately left a bit unclear (I shall fix it when I get home). In my scenario, the anti-aid politicians were gaining ground and it looked like they might succeed, which was what the meeting with the Emperor was about. The Emperor then decided to preempt/sidestep the anti-aid politicians by taking away their biggest weapon (that the Japanese weren't American, and thus didn't deserve so much help).

You also still have the other problem of the US's allies taking this as a go ahead to hold onto their colonial holdings

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Well, yes, but also no. The colonial powers might see it as Carte Blanche to keep their holdings, but the process of decolonization had already begun. Britaon had already given Canada, Australia, and New Zealand independence in the 1920s, and India and Pakistan followed in 1947 (5 years before my hypothetical 2nd Great Kanto Earthquake). The French were also seeing a lot of revolts in their colonies from the 1870s - 1960s, so the end of French colonialism is going to happen eventually whether the French want it to or not.

 

[Xerres]

Ah, I unfortunately left a bit unclear (I shall fix it when I get home). In my scenario, the anti-aid politicians were gaining ground and it looked like they might succeed, which was what the meeting with the Emperor was about. The Emperor then decided to preempt/sidestep the anti-aid politicians by taking away their biggest weapon (that the Japanese weren't American, and thus didn't deserve so much help).


Well, yes, but also no. The colonial powers might see it as Carte Blanche to keep their holdings, but the process of decolonization had already begun. Britaon had already given Canada, Australia, and New Zealand independence in the 1920s, and India and Pakistan followed in 1947 (5 years before my hypothetical 2nd Great Kanto Earthquake). The French were also seeing a lot of revolts in their colonies from the 1870s - 1960s, so the end of French colonialism is going to happen eventually whether the French want it to or not.

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Canada was a dominion till 47 and did stop using it in it bureaucracy until 1987. New Zealand was also declared defacto independent in 47 but that was more uk changing laws meaning no Independence Day. the partition of India happened more because of the quit India movement and the more armed insurgencies and the British and French lacking the manpower to enforce there empires

 

[Tahu1809]

Ah, I unfortunately left a bit unclear (I shall fix it when I get home). In my scenario, the anti-aid politicians were gaining ground and it looked like they might succeed, which was what the meeting with the Emperor was about. The Emperor then decided to preempt/sidestep the anti-aid politicians by taking away their biggest weapon (that the Japanese weren't American, and thus didn't deserve so much help).

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No I got what you ment just fine. My point being what would compel the anti aid faction to agree with annexing Japan?