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The problem with Sauske Uchiha(And Shonen as a whole)

FortePlus said:
Yeah wrong. We were given several hints.

Orochimaru had to assume direct control and his version of Edo Tensei wasn't as strong as later uses. Technique use is less potent when the zombies have their personalities all the way under. This is backed up all the way when the same zombies with a more potent version of ET and better mediums go ham with extra cheese in the final arc.

Hashirama jammed the barrier full with one tech in the Leaf Crushing arc. We see Yamato going nuts with Wood Release. Hashirama was stated to be wilder than even that repeatedly.

Hashirama and Madara created the VotE in one fight, stated.

Hashirama subjugated all nine tailed beasts, stated.
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It's remarkable how most of your examples of 'hints' are 'later canon retroactively claims it is true'.

Meanwhile, in the actual attack on Konoha, we're hearing about how Sarutobi Hiruzen was 'the god of shinobi' and the, like, greatest Hokage ever (save possibly the fourth, who was his successor; critically, Hiruzen explicitly notices what is implied to be a coffin for the Fourth, and chooses to stop it over either the first or the second, implying that the first and the second are lesser threats than the fourth). Who knew every technique of the leaf and blah.

Like. 'Impure World Resurrection is later depicted as stronger, with a justification provided' isn't an example of a hint. It's an example of these things getting changed in often baffling ways, that could not be reasonably predicted as even plausible from the early arcs. Nobody is acting like the First and Second Hokage would be too much for Hiruzen at his peak- they're pretty explicit that if he wasn't over the hill, he'd have the chakra to use Shadow Clones to, you know, fight them three on one.

One can assume that they were stronger, but it's hugely inconsistent with everything we're told at the time and the themes of the next generation surpassing the old that were very consistent until some time after the timeskip. It basically requires you pay no attention to any part of the sequence to conclude that the Hokages essentially descended in power as you went up through the numbers.

'coincidentally', Naruto goes from consistently saying that The Youth Will Surpass The Old Guard to saying The Old Guard Is Eternally Better Than These Whippersnappers Who Just 100% Can Never Match Up as Kishimoto moved from an up and coming young whippersnapper to the old guard himself. Imagine that.

(like again post timeskip we were initially getting stuff like Kakazu praising himself as Older And Better and the story kicking his teeth in with 'no you aren't, you are a fossil, obsolete, already surpassed by the youth because you are old', and it's not til the general range of the Shinobi World War Arc that we reverse to 'yes actually all older ninja are better including that everyone is just a pale shadow of mega old ninja/ninja-like beings such as Kaguya'.)
 
Terrabrand said:
It's remarkable how most of your examples of 'hints' are 'later canon retroactively claims it is true'.

Meanwhile, in the actual attack on Konoha, we're hearing about how Sarutobi Hiruzen was 'the god of shinobi' and the, like, greatest Hokage ever (save possibly the fourth, who was his successor; critically, Hiruzen explicitly notices what is implied to be a coffin for the Fourth, and chooses to stop it over either the first or the second, implying that the first and the second are lesser threats than the fourth). Who knew every technique of the leaf and blah.

Like. 'Impure World Resurrection is later depicted as stronger, with a justification provided' isn't an example of a hint. It's an example of these things getting changed in often baffling ways, that could not be reasonably predicted as even plausible from the early arcs. Nobody is acting like the First and Second Hokage would be too much for Hiruzen at his peak- they're pretty explicit that if he wasn't over the hill, he'd have the chakra to use Shadow Clones to, you know, fight them three on one.

One can assume that they were stronger, but it's hugely inconsistent with everything we're told at the time and the themes of the next generation surpassing the old that were very consistent until some time after the timeskip. It basically requires you pay no attention to any part of the sequence to conclude that the Hokages essentially descended in power as you went up through the numbers.

'coincidentally', Naruto goes from consistently saying that The Youth Will Surpass The Old Guard to saying The Old Guard Is Eternally Better Than These Whippersnappers Who Just 100% Can Never Match Up as Kishimoto moved from an up and coming young whippersnapper to the old guard himself. Imagine that.

(like again post timeskip we were initially getting stuff like Kakazu praising himself as Older And Better and the story kicking his teeth in with 'no you aren't, you are a fossil, obsolete, already surpassed by the youth because you are old', and it's not til the general range of the Shinobi World War Arc that we reverse to 'yes actually all older ninja are better including that everyone is just a pale shadow of mega old ninja/ninja-like beings such as Kaguya'.)
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God, thank you. I don't think I've seen this complaint of that Naruto theme summed up so conclusively before.


I wonder how much the undermining of that theme was intentional, though, and how much of it comes down to Kishimoto writing with traditional shonen tropes. After all, the structure of a shonen battle manga means that our heroes must also be facing ever-stronger, ever-greater adversaries; it's what leads to the power creep. So, when Kishimoto reached the Shinobi War arc and he needed to up the power again, he did so by bringing back all the names which stories in-universe had hyped up, and then amped their powers up even more, even though doing that contradicted the theme he had previously been establishing and work within.

(I mean, it wouldn't be the first time, given how wildly astray the 'Genius vs Hard work' or 'You Can/Can't Fight Fate' themes went...)
 
Quiver said:
God, thank you. I don't think I've seen this complaint of that Naruto theme summed up so conclusively before.


I wonder how much the undermining of that theme was intentional, though, and how much of it comes down to Kishimoto writing with traditional shonen tropes. After all, the structure of a shonen battle manga means that our heroes must also be facing ever-stronger, ever-greater adversaries; it's what leads to the power creep. So, when Kishimoto reached the Shinobi War arc and he needed to up the power again, he did so by bringing back all the names which stories in-universe had hyped up, and then amped their powers up even more, even though doing that contradicted the theme he had previously been establishing and work within.

(I mean, it wouldn't be the first time, given how wildly astray the 'Genius vs Hard work' or 'You Can/Can't Fight Fate' themes went...)
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honestly, I don't think it can be boiled down to intentional or otherwise. I think it's simply that Kishimoto started out as an up and coming star trying to topple giants with his success in doubt, and so wrote what he knew, a protagonist doing the same, and then when he was the established old guard veteran type, he started writing them as the Naruto Equivalents on a narrative level, reversing his themes because of the change in his own position socially.

I suspect it's unintentional in the sense he didn't consciously intend to change that theme, but intentional in the sense that it's not actually coincidental that it maps to his own life. I similarly find it fairly likely that he pulled Naruto's Dad back into the story as a fairly primary character... around the time his own author's notes were mentioning his son.

Like. A lot of fiction has strong strands of just The Author Is Echoing Their Life, and I think many of these more bizarre reversals and shifts come down to that.

(though I also wouldn't be surprised if he just fell back on traditional shonen tropes- it is weirdly common to invoke sealed evils in cans or whatever who are pre-existently greater than the greatest greats rather than, like, having actual up and coming villains or the like to parallel our heroes, who could actually be a lot more narratively threatening because if they're similarly powerful and old to our heroes... maybe our heroes can't just keep training montaging their way past the power of the old greats)
 
Terrabrand said:
It's remarkable how most of your examples of 'hints' are 'later canon retroactively claims it is true'.

Meanwhile, in the actual attack on Konoha, we're hearing about how Sarutobi Hiruzen was 'the god of shinobi' and the, like, greatest Hokage ever (save possibly the fourth, who was his successor; critically, Hiruzen explicitly notices what is implied to be a coffin for the Fourth, and chooses to stop it over either the first or the second, implying that the first and the second are lesser threats than the fourth). Who knew every technique of the leaf and blah.
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I mean the way it happened in pretty much any version, in both manga and anime, it appears that he didn't even realize what those were until the third one started rising? Like he choose to try to stop the third one because that one hadn't completely appeared yet.
 
Cadis said:
I mean the way it happened in pretty much any version, in both manga and anime, it appears that he didn't even realize what those were until the third one started rising? Like he choose to try to stop the third one because that one hadn't completely appeared yet.
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There was no third one in the manga.

Also Hiruzen was mentioned not to be at full power since he wasn't in his prime. Orochimaru was messing around.

Also Hiruzen was stated to be most powerful Kage of his time.
 
Terrabrand said:
honestly, I don't think it can be boiled down to intentional or otherwise. I think it's simply that Kishimoto started out as an up and coming star trying to topple giants with his success in doubt, and so wrote what he knew, a protagonist doing the same, and then when he was the established old guard veteran type, he started writing them as the Naruto Equivalents on a narrative level, reversing his themes because of the change in his own position socially.

I suspect it's unintentional in the sense he didn't consciously intend to change that theme, but intentional in the sense that it's not actually coincidental that it maps to his own life. I similarly find it fairly likely that he pulled Naruto's Dad back into the story as a fairly primary character... around the time his own author's notes were mentioning his son.

Like. A lot of fiction has strong strands of just The Author Is Echoing Their Life, and I think many of these more bizarre reversals and shifts come down to that.

(though I also wouldn't be surprised if he just fell back on traditional shonen tropes- it is weirdly common to invoke sealed evils in cans or whatever who are pre-existently greater than the greatest greats rather than, like, having actual up and coming villains or the like to parallel our heroes, who could actually be a lot more narratively threatening because if they're similarly powerful and old to our heroes... maybe our heroes can't just keep training montaging their way past the power of the old greats)
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Well a lot of the time it is because having it be an ancient evil means that it can bring the threat it poses across to everyone. Like hell, Orbito used this in story by adopting the identity of Madara.
Shiva12 said:
There was no third one in the manga.

Also Hiruzen was mentioned not to be at full power since he wasn't in his prime. Orochimaru was messing around.

Also Hiruzen was stated to be most powerful Kage of his time.
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I can get a better image when I'm not at work.
 
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Wait, doesn't Boruto follow the next generation being stronger than the last one theme?

Also, isn't Naruto's generation the one to actually fucking solve the universe that was fucked up by a bunch of old men? Wasn't the ancient progenitor of all ninjutsu a shitheel tyrant who they beat?
 
LSkullD said:
Wait, doesn't Boruto follow the next generation being stronger than the last one theme?

Also, isn't Naruto's generation the one to actually fucking solve the universe that was fucked up by a bunch of old men? Wasn't the ancient progenitor of all ninjutsu a shitheel tyrant who they beat?
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Technically the progenitor of Ninjutsu was a good guy. They beat his mother, who he had needed help to defeat.

Aside from that, Naruto and Sasuke are the strongest Ninja in history. Even Madara could only compete with them by obtaining powerups he'd never had during his lifetime
 
Cadis said:
I mean the way it happened in pretty much any version, in both manga and anime, it appears that he didn't even realize what those were until the third one started rising? Like he choose to try to stop the third one because that one hadn't completely appeared yet.
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It's unclear honestly, the sequence of events is

1. Orochimaru shouts the name of the technique out.
2. He raises the first coffin.
3. Sarutobi thinks 'is he really using those spirits?' and begins a counter technique.
4. Orochimaru raises the second coffin.
5. Sarutobi thinks that it's important he stop the third coffin and completes his technique.
6. Orochimaru notes that the third coffin has been stopped.
7. Sarutobi is glad he stopped the third one but thinks the battle will remain difficult.
 
Delirium said:
It's unclear honestly, the sequence of events is

1. Orochimaru shouts the name of the technique out.
2. He raises the first coffin.
3. Sarutobi thinks 'is he really using those spirits?' and begins a counter technique.
4. Orochimaru raises the second coffin.
5. Sarutobi thinks that it's important he stop the third coffin and completes his technique.
6. Orochimaru notes that the third coffin has been stopped.
7. Sarutobi is glad he stopped the third one but thinks the battle will remain difficult.
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Only in the anime. In the Manga there is no third coffin at all
 
That said, in the situation they're in, I'd consider the Fourth to be the most dangerous as well.
It's a small enclosed space, so the guy who can teleport around is a bigger threat than the ones who can't use their AoE because Orochimaru is in there as well.
 
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Pidl said:
That said, in the situation they're in, I'd consider the Fourth to be the most dangerous as well.
It's a small enclosed space, so the guy who can teleport around is a bigger threat than the ones who can't use their AoE because Orochimaru is in there as well.
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And then it turned out the Second Hokage had his own inferior version of that technique so... :V
 
LSkullD said:
Wait, doesn't Boruto follow the next generation being stronger than the last one theme?

Also, isn't Naruto's generation the one to actually fucking solve the universe that was fucked up by a bunch of old men? Wasn't the ancient progenitor of all ninjutsu a shitheel tyrant who they beat?
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'the older generation was bad evil people who were bad' is not at all exclusive with 'the old generation was far more powerful than the current'. Moreover, though I cannot comment on Boruto since I could never motivate myself to actually check it out, Shinobi World War Arc does a bunch of things that basically make Old Better Than New. Lemme lay out some examples;

  • Kaguya is so hideously powerful that our heroes even for the final fight need to four~ one one her to have the ability to win at all and even then cheap shot her to pull it off.
  • Naruto and Sasuke are super ultra beyond the impossible powerful... Because of Chakra Ghosts Or Something from ancient Ninja. Retroactively, there are several bits provided about how only Naruto could possibly challenge Sasuke from this ancient natural ability thing.
  • Aside Naruto and Sasuke and their Chakra Ghosts Or Whatever, it's basically all Old As Better Than New; the Impure World Resurrected Raikage is, like. 'take the current Raikage, only on top of existing advantages, give him so much toughness that he can literally fight a thousand+ strong army without a scratch because he is all but invincible and also can fight the Eight Tails and only get injured by his own super piercing attack'. An attack that, retroactively, is the inspiration for Kakashi's lightning blade, making even one of the most impressive current generation techniques a relic of the past.
  • Madara is treated as Flatly Better Obito most of the time by the narrative. Indeed, Obito is painted as dangerous by being a pale shadow of Madara rather than anything else.
  • Most of the best techniques are now asserted to be Old. Impure World Resurrection is initially possible to take as invented by Orochimaru, with no evidence to the contrary, but in the Shinobi World War Arc is unambigiously stated to be invented by the Second. Raikiri, as noted earlier, is now a knock off of a Dead Raikage's technique. More insidiously, we go from Naruto having had a Demon sealed in him by the brilliant Fourth Hokage (earliest canon) to Jinchuuriki being literally as old as Ninja in general and so Naruto's special thing is now wholly traditional. Similarly, a lot of Orochimaru's more impressive tricks go from being indicated to be invented by his Science! To being Totally Traditional Sage Mode Stuff.
  • The Hokages basically flatly rank as Older Is Better when they all get resurrected. Including they are, like, all better than Tsunade.
Like. There's a ton of stuff like this, but where early canon tends to lean into ideas like 'Sound Genin boasting about their futuristic next gen ninjutsu are basically right that this stuff is better', later canon tends to make the clash of Tradition vs Innovation and Youth And Vigor vs Age And Experience fall pretty hard on the tradition/age side, and often makes formerly indicated to be innovative stuff expressly aping the older, with a side order of an indication that any advantage you gain through youth is basically still putting you as worse than That Old Dude Was when he was your age.

There are very few things that don't lean somehow in that direction by the Shinobi World War arc, which is a stark contrast with things I was noting earlier like how Kakazu tries to pull the I'm Old So I'm From The Age Of Legends And Better Than You card and the story/Kakashi basically goes 'Nah You're Old And So Behind The Times And Obsolete'.

And then Kakazu basically gets chumped where in the Shinobi World War arc they throw a hilarious number of bodies at Madara to get any results.
 
Why doesn't it even matter? It's such a minor thing that it's not even important.

Also isn't this supposed to be about Sasuke?
 
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