The idea of colonialism as we know it was based on the lessons of taking over a ravaged continent. Making puppet states, taking over a city here or there, and swindling land from people happened before but without Spain making so much money they crashed the economy it will not in any way take the shape it did originally. Colonies for the sake of having more colonies then anyone else or not 'falling behind' just won't be as important and having local rulers under your sway or controlling trade hubs. Over time it would get worse but literal ship loads of gold warped Europe just as sure as smallpox warped the Americas.
The Native Americans were Immunized to European Diseases Before Invasion
- Thread starter Muhkat Lomorki
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The idea of colonialism as we know it was based on the lessons of taking over a ravaged continent. Making puppet states, taking over a city here or there, and swindling land from people happened before but without Spain making so much money they crashed the economy it will not in any way take the shape it did originally. Colonies for the sake of having more colonies then anyone else or not 'falling behind' just won't be as important and having local rulers under your sway or controlling trade hubs. Over time it would get worse but literal ship loads of gold warped Europe just as sure as smallpox warped the Americas.
Sol Zagato
senseless brute
I dunno. Portugal in Asia and the bucketloads of money that will be pouring through Panama (eventually) and from the Caribbean will still make for potent examples. I can even see Mexico being tantalizing- the Spanish probably conquer it for a year or two before they're kicked out. Maybe eventually conquered like India- piecemeal and through a lot of local alliances and treaties. Expect things like convert Tlaxcalan nobility being recieved in the courts of Europe.
The coast of Brazil up through Panama will be open to colonization because they'll be ripped apart by African diseases. A plantation economy feedback loop (import slaves -> more disease waves -> more land for planting) is likely.
The Incas are staying independent forever, but everybody's going to want a (trading colony)/ (leased port) on the coast to get a piece of the silver.
Americas north of Mexico gets some malaria, but not enough for a horror show. They're also primitive enough to be less attractive for conquest. Here, like in the southern cone of South America, the Natives will continue to run the show, but horses and muskets should set of an interesting series of wars, complete with European advisers and alliances. In the end, Darwinian selection for stronger state structures, but some areas depopulating. As per OTL, some plains Indians are going to get really good at imitating the Mongols for nomadic viciousness.
The west coast of N. America didn't have any protostates outside of the Tinglit, to my knowledge. As such, California may be vulnerable to colonization.
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- Location
- The Old Dominion
Eastern North America did have somethings that was considered extremely valuable to the Europeans, a prime example furs especially beaver furs which were in very high demand in Europe, there were entire brutal wars between the natives complete with ethnic cleansing to control the fur trade to the Europeans.
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- Location
- Brittany, France
- Pronouns
- He/Him
You're only citing the Aztec, but the posts you quoted talked about South and Central America. Huaynca Capac died of smallpox before the Incas had met a single conquistador, leaving his empire torn by a civil war between two brothers and opening the path to Pizarro - and that's even without counting the millions of death. Again, before conquest had even begun.
Sol Zagato
senseless brute
Right, but here they're thick enough on the ground that the Europeans (outside of a few adventurers and Metis) will mostly be limited to the coasts. Without disease die-offs, I don't see them having enough motivation to go inland. Maybe if you had a gold rush in a spot that had been genocided.
The negation of "no native states fall to European without smallpox" is "at least one native state falls to Europeans without smallpox". Making every dynamic of transatlantic exchange be entirely based on epidemics is absurdly reductionist.
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Those lessons are not uniquely European though. States and nations throughout the world learned the exact same lessons. The Chinese learned it so well that they regularly had the entirety of their periphery in some sort of tributary system
Ships is what made Europe dominant, and only because the only place really contesting European naval dominance in the early modern period were the ottomans, and eventually they lost, both ships and interest as ottoman economic systems were entirely different conceptuonally. They didn't get into mercantalism or bullionism the way the iberians did
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Personally I think it kind of goes against the spirit of the thread to just assume that if European diseases aren't a factor, they'd still just die from african diseases. The scenario, as I see it, is to just imagine that disease is a nonfactor in the columbian exchange and go from there.
I think that the internal division among the natives would probably prevent them from posing a major threat to european hegemony; and they may or may not end up in the position that China was in the 19th century; bullied and pried open to be a forced market for European goods. It's possible that colonization might take place, but it would be a situation closer to British India rather than what it was in OTL.
And, of course, the great powers would continue using the Americas to wage proxy wars on one another.
Modern America in the new timeline is decolonized eventually, finding itself in a slightly worse position than OTL after being bullied much more by europe than OTL USA; but it might end up becoming unified and still rise to be a great power; or several great powers if they can bury the hatchet. The USA is just too geographically perfect to avoid becoming a strong player on the world stage; the Mississippi civilization alone would be the rival of any european power by the late 20th century.
I think that the internal division among the natives would probably prevent them from posing a major threat to european hegemony; and they may or may not end up in the position that China was in the 19th century; bullied and pried open to be a forced market for European goods. It's possible that colonization might take place, but it would be a situation closer to British India rather than what it was in OTL.
And, of course, the great powers would continue using the Americas to wage proxy wars on one another.
Modern America in the new timeline is decolonized eventually, finding itself in a slightly worse position than OTL after being bullied much more by europe than OTL USA; but it might end up becoming unified and still rise to be a great power; or several great powers if they can bury the hatchet. The USA is just too geographically perfect to avoid becoming a strong player on the world stage; the Mississippi civilization alone would be the rival of any european power by the late 20th century.
Muhkat Lomorki
Draconic Sorcerer
And the Iroquois Confederacy? How'd they do? I imagine they would adopt a few European ideas. What, I don't know, but there is a chance that they would at least be interested in some of them.
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- Challenge God? y/n
Specific polities within the americas would do worse or better depending on circumstances obviously; I don't know enough about the subject to properly comment on it. The Mississippi are just HUGE. They covered the eastern half of the continent all along the river's banks and produced a ridiculous amount of food for their gigantic population, a trend which would likely continue in the new timeline; and any large, well fed population with access to river trade routes is going to do pretty damn well.
Sol Zagato
senseless brute
That makes them boring supermen that will be used to colonize Africa very early. Just give them European immune systems.
- Location
- Challenge God? y/n
"Will be used to colonize Africa" implies that
A: Europeans will want Africa to be run by Native Americans
and
B: Have some way of compelling them to do that.
Sol Zagato
senseless brute
A) Mercenaries, you use the tools you have. The fact that they'd have a different culture than the locals makes them less likely to sympathize with the locals than, you know, local hires would. Being immune to diseases that kill many Africans and kill even more non-Africans will be noted for use when an opportunity arises. It could even start small, like garrisoning mainland assets like El Mina.
B) God, gold and politics.
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I don't think that will work dude.
Sol Zagato
senseless brute
Edited for more substantial response.
- Location
- Challenge God? y/n
The second part is honestly the one that makes the least sense dude. And you've still failed to answer why Europeans would want American mercenaries running their african colonies. They might start getting ideas like "I'm the one doing all the hard work here, I'm the one who's running all the risks here, why am I giving these people the spoils of my labor when I could just be running this shit myself?
- Location
- Brittany, France
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Well, that's not a new problem, nor an issue that hasn't arisen before.
Sol Zagato
senseless brute
Stratigo. Seriously. How do you comprehend history if it's all a big cartoon caricature? They thought badly of each sometimes, and for different reasons. Some reasons which won't be there ATL.
Dom Justo Takayama - Wikipedia
Gee, helping an ally and parter in conquest, and potential source of future profits...
Or the Congolese bishop of Utica that was slated to attend the Council of Trent. They must have thought very little of him
Kingdom of Kongo - Wikipedia
And more about that Kongo... a place the Portuguese supported for awhile that helped them enslave Africans. Whoah, whaddaya know, profit motive!
Abyssinian–Adal war - Wikipedia
Hey, those nasty Euros going around thinking everyone is beneath them again.
Based off the above, and the popular notion of Native Americans being good mercenaries... if you control the shipping lanes, why not bring your disease-immune conversos from the New World to take a few chunks of the Old World south of the Sahara? Especially if there's gold or souls to be taken.
The Big Winner is Tawantinsuyu. Without the civil war caused by small pox, they basically sit on the most easly defended patch of land in the Americas while having a relatively staple and effective enough government with a pretty united people.
Combine it with their road systems and their storehouse network, the Quecha stand the greatest chance of not being conquered. As is, their historical comquest was basically Murphy's Law taking a mean look at them. Remove the circumstances that made it possible, it is significantly harder to conquer them.
Likely what happens after the first few failed attempts is the Spanish start to heavily trade with Tawantinsuyu. Would not be surprising if the Inca tries to control the trade so trade only happens woth his administration. But the effectiveness of this is likely to not be great. Expect illicit trade of european goods in return for Quecha Products. And there to be several suspiciously european blacksmiths appearing in the peripheries of the empire.
For those who have no clue what the hell is Tawantinsuyu, it is the actual name the Quecha called their nation. Inca was a word used to refer to their ruler.
Combine it with their road systems and their storehouse network, the Quecha stand the greatest chance of not being conquered. As is, their historical comquest was basically Murphy's Law taking a mean look at them. Remove the circumstances that made it possible, it is significantly harder to conquer them.
Likely what happens after the first few failed attempts is the Spanish start to heavily trade with Tawantinsuyu. Would not be surprising if the Inca tries to control the trade so trade only happens woth his administration. But the effectiveness of this is likely to not be great. Expect illicit trade of european goods in return for Quecha Products. And there to be several suspiciously european blacksmiths appearing in the peripheries of the empire.
For those who have no clue what the hell is Tawantinsuyu, it is the actual name the Quecha called their nation. Inca was a word used to refer to their ruler.
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Sol Zagato
senseless brute
That point has been made earlier in the thread, though without the detail you've brought. Agreed, they're never ever ever getting conquered. They're the Ethiopia of South America.
He's seriously. The difference between working with a local as intermediary and appointing som one from one continent to oversee another continent is really fucking vast. It boggles the mind that you think Europeans will go "yes, put these babariams in charge of these other barbarians after shipping them over the Atlantic. Genius!" The Europeans (largely northern) were willing to work with local leaders as long as a pound of flesh was given, but the idea that, outside some few outliers, they'd send natives to oversee African colonies is ridiculous
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- The Old Dominion
Some of the spanish conquistadors were black and they were apparently rewarded by the rulers of Spain for their services from what I understand.
Juan Garrido for instance served 30 years of military service taking part in the invasions of Porto Rico and Cuba and later joined Cortes's invasion of Mexico, he apparently had a chapel built in 1520 and was the first person to grow wheat for commercial services in the new world after he settled down in Mexico City.
Juan Garrido for instance served 30 years of military service taking part in the invasions of Porto Rico and Cuba and later joined Cortes's invasion of Mexico, he apparently had a chapel built in 1520 and was the first person to grow wheat for commercial services in the new world after he settled down in Mexico City.
- Location
- Luton Airport
The Portuguese were quite happy to employ Japanese mercs across Asia as well.
RyRy
putting the PRO in Protracted People's War
- Location
- the bay and the bayou
Basically, if this were true, there'd be far fewer non-indigenous people in the Western Hemisphere. I highly doubt Europeans would have penetrated too far into the continent, which changes the whole dynamic of colonization (most English settlers left for the nearly infinite amount of cheap land, without a devastated indigenous nation this wouldn't be possible).