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And that, I would say, is the problem stated in the OP.
The Magical Girl Problem
- Thread starter ColdGoldLazarus
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And that, I would say, is the problem stated in the OP.
Jimmy C
Mostly Harmless
Nanoha deals with some very cruel people who inflict misery and suffering to the characters we care about. But that's the key, they are cruel people. Which means there's a clear path to ending the suffering, stop those people.
Also, Nanoha is impressive that it actually grew beyond being a magical girl show. Arguably, it began as early as the introduction of the TSAB in mid-S1. But a viewer could still ignore the implications and pretend it was just a magical girl show for the first two seasons.
By StrikerS, that would be no longer possible. Midchilda, occassionally mentioned in the previous seasons, was now the main setting. An advanced magic-using civilization. And Nanoha was just a magic-user in a magical civilization who happened to be female.
It was a fantasy action-adventure setting.
And the latest series in the setting, MGLN Vivid and Vivid Strike, can be described as slice-of-life and sports-focus series set in a magical world.
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You'd think Nanoha would score more debate
I mean, you went all tongue-in-cheek but thinking about Nanoha is somehow fresher than thinking about Madoka (and thematic discussion sounds far better than going through Madoka minutae) sooo
A lot of this has to do with the themes. Nanoha makes its themes crystal clear, though it has some elements that people perceive as too dark for your typical MG anime (because they have normally never watched one[1]), the themes have some pretty key overlapping- friendship, redemption, a sense of justice for those wronged, and growing up, and all these themes are crystal clear. Like, when you really think about it, Shinbo clearly did have some experience with the genre before making Nanoha because with adult trappings he does hit on most of what makes a MG show what it is. But I digress.
Madoka's themes are far less clear cut, to the point that we debate what the themes are at all. Is it a feminist work in some sense? Is it a commentary on Japanese culture? Is it simply a cruel depiction of children suffering? Is it that idealism is pointless and there's no reason to try? Is it a deconstruction? Is it a subversion? Is it just a dark MG show? I've seen pretty much all these takes made (and similar ones), often times articulately argued and the arguers citing various points of the show and interviews (though who cares about those lol). And if you can't agree on the themes, you can't really establish any sort of moral clarity on the show itself and are going to have ridiculously different takes on what characters were right and who were wrong and who deserved what and what-have-you. Like your take on what you want to take from the show thematically is going to radically change your perception, so because you have far more different takes, you get far more argument.
Like, nobody would make a case that Precia and Jail were somehow right, and with Graham it's largely a handful of contrarians. Because Nanoha, even after Shinbo leaves the project, has clear themes and morals that as a result it tends to be super obvious who the good guys and bad guys are, whose actions are largely moral and whose aren't. And that's faaaaaaaaar from a bad thing, but it tends to lessen the degree of debate.[2]
1. I mean honestly it isn't as visceral as Precia in Season 1, but you could absolutely slot Hotaru's treatment in Sailor Moon S under "child abuse".
2. Though judging from the length of the Nanoha thread, somehow they manage to find something to argue about.
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Yeah, why and how much Force sucks.2. Though judging from the length of the Nanoha thread, somehow they manage to find something to argue about.
Mmm, well in Nanoha carefully applied violence DOES work. And work quite well at that.
The important part is the aftercare, because things aren't solved that easily.
Personally the most thematically interesting part is the As finale, where after massive amounts of firepower, friendship and heart was applied...its still not enough to change reality, and Nanoha and Fate had to mercy kill Reinforce. Similarly, in season 1, Precia wasn't evil so much as batshit insane, and despite Fate's best efforts, effectively committed suicide with Alicia through the Dimensional Gap.
The world is saved, but the people still suffer.
Jimmy C
Mostly Harmless
Suffered. It's over with the end of the series. And that's the important part.
Dream Logic
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So I just want to double down on Starlight Revue feeling like the most magical girl thing ever for me.
Because it's about people changing for the better because they embrace their emotions and love for one another even as they compete for the same goal.
The main antagonist has good intentions and their defeat at the protagonists hands isn't what changes their mind. They already were on that track and seeing our protagonist surpass them just confirmed what they were already thinking, that they had been wrong. I don't even think they receive a speech on the subject, they just naturally came around to it.
It's a show where they outright say 'we are going to do the impossible and stop this tragedy from repeating'. Albeit that is performing a play together but god damnit it's a dramatic play.
Honestly some aspects feel like they were definitely inspired BY madoka but it's certainly not about Madoka.
It feels very affirmative of magical girl themes without strictly being about magical girls themselves since in many ways them being magical girls is just an extension of what they already want, Dream and do.
Because it's about people changing for the better because they embrace their emotions and love for one another even as they compete for the same goal.
The main antagonist has good intentions and their defeat at the protagonists hands isn't what changes their mind. They already were on that track and seeing our protagonist surpass them just confirmed what they were already thinking, that they had been wrong. I don't even think they receive a speech on the subject, they just naturally came around to it.
It's a show where they outright say 'we are going to do the impossible and stop this tragedy from repeating'. Albeit that is performing a play together but god damnit it's a dramatic play.
Honestly some aspects feel like they were definitely inspired BY madoka but it's certainly not about Madoka.
It feels very affirmative of magical girl themes without strictly being about magical girls themselves since in many ways them being magical girls is just an extension of what they already want, Dream and do.
I would also like to note that NotHomura gets told 'screw your self sacrifice bullshit' and it actually works.
That and when the villainous giraffe gives his entire speech about why he does the revues (to build the girls up and watch them fall into tragedy) the camera refuses to give him center stage because fuck him.
EDIT: Also forgot to mention that they change the ending to the play so that 1. It now includes 9 people so everyone's in it, 2. It involves the characters reuniting because FUCK FATE they earned their Happy Endings 3. Position Zero (center stage) is the last shot and it's left empty, everyone's moved on and it's ready for the next generation to make their mark
That and when the villainous giraffe gives his entire speech about why he does the revues (to build the girls up and watch them fall into tragedy) the camera refuses to give him center stage because fuck him.
EDIT: Also forgot to mention that they change the ending to the play so that 1. It now includes 9 people so everyone's in it, 2. It involves the characters reuniting because FUCK FATE they earned their Happy Endings 3. Position Zero (center stage) is the last shot and it's left empty, everyone's moved on and it's ready for the next generation to make their mark
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Jimmy C
Mostly Harmless
Don't forget what the giraffe represents, and what does that says about yourself?
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Nope. It's inspired by Utena.
The heavily symbology, the dense thematics, the surrealistic imagery, the Magical Girl feel without necessarily having the structure of a MG anime... I'm only 2 episodes in but in my eyes the Ikuhara influence is incredibly clear, though in some aspects more akin to Yuri Kuma Arashi than Utena- the heavy yuri text rather than subtext and the nature of the battles that frame the ends of episodes the main elements that come to mind.
Dream Logic
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Ok. I'm baaad at this but he has some representation to the audience (obviously) but while he seems to fundamentally want to see people fail so that the one can rise above it's pretty clear from early on that no one here deserves to suffer nor would them falling to despair be a satisfying conclusion. My understanding as well is that he only found a satisfying ending because they broke his storyline.
Also, fuck him. He fundamentally misunderstands the appeal of the genre he inhabits. The point of catharsis is them overcoming their problems not succumbing to it.
Also, fuck him. He fundamentally misunderstands the appeal of the genre he inhabits. The point of catharsis is them overcoming their problems not succumbing to it.
I keep forgetting Utena exists even as I see so much that was inspired by it. Was really thinking a few of the character designs and some later discussions feel like things that could have happened in Madoka if we saw more of their day to day lives and how it affected them.
Though I will agree that it owes much more to Utena the more I think about it.
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Furukawa Tomohiro, the director of Revue Starlight, is an Ikuhara understudy. He was senior staff in both Mawaru Penguindrum and Yuri Kuma Arashi.
Honestly with that resume it seems actually kind of surprising how good Revue Starlight is.
Dream Logic
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That history on Yuri Kuma Arashi makes sense. Might just be common elements of the genre+setting but I can see some similarity.
That and this felt a lot better executed.
That and this felt a lot better executed.
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I kind of liked Yuri Kuma Arashi.
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Yuri Kuma Arashi owns.
Sightedjt
Everlasting Flames
About revue, having just finished it so it's fresh in my mind but so my thoughts may not be the most coherent as this is raw writing.
Is roughly my thoughts.
TLDR- giraffe isnt actively malicious IMO, and the series as a whole goes very MG in the messaging by rejecting the idea of suffering.
I also adore it for how the characters are rivals, not enemies, frequently gain something even when they lose (both very magical girl things), the lovely OST and the visuals as well. The [I AM REBORN] transformation sequence is particularly nice IMO, with perfect thematic fitting, a lovely hint of ominousness with the "fuel for the fire" labels and whispering, and a very nice design in general.
-E- but what is tendo maya
While the giraffe is the metaphor for audience in a way as was fairly blatant... I wouldn't say he wants to see the girls fail. Still a bit of a twat, but not actively working against them.
He wants to see the most spectacular show possible, the stars of stars making the best performance they can. The fact that in his way, those who didnt make it suffer is not a goal in and of itself ala the bunnycat. It was just a by product, a necessary thing for the shine he wanted. Something he was apathetic to.
And for all Hikari suffered in her stage, that was the stage she chose. She chose to take the suffering for everyone.
But then here comes karen, who completely shatters the idea of there needing to be tragedy involved in the performance, even willing suffering. Her performance is one built off nothing but love and passion for the performance. There will still be long nights, aching practice, blood sweat and tears. But none of it will be suffering- the change to the script of the play + leaving the book behind in the sand reflect that it is absolutely possible to have a wonderful performance without suffering or tragedy.
And what does the giraffe think when he sees this performance, Karens refutation of the idea that suffering is part of art in the final [I AM REBORN] scene?
He thinks it's the most lovely thing he's ever seen.
He wants to see the most spectacular show possible, the stars of stars making the best performance they can. The fact that in his way, those who didnt make it suffer is not a goal in and of itself ala the bunnycat. It was just a by product, a necessary thing for the shine he wanted. Something he was apathetic to.
And for all Hikari suffered in her stage, that was the stage she chose. She chose to take the suffering for everyone.
But then here comes karen, who completely shatters the idea of there needing to be tragedy involved in the performance, even willing suffering. Her performance is one built off nothing but love and passion for the performance. There will still be long nights, aching practice, blood sweat and tears. But none of it will be suffering- the change to the script of the play + leaving the book behind in the sand reflect that it is absolutely possible to have a wonderful performance without suffering or tragedy.
And what does the giraffe think when he sees this performance, Karens refutation of the idea that suffering is part of art in the final [I AM REBORN] scene?
He thinks it's the most lovely thing he's ever seen.
Is roughly my thoughts.
TLDR- giraffe isnt actively malicious IMO, and the series as a whole goes very MG in the messaging by rejecting the idea of suffering.
I also adore it for how the characters are rivals, not enemies, frequently gain something even when they lose (both very magical girl things), the lovely OST and the visuals as well. The [I AM REBORN] transformation sequence is particularly nice IMO, with perfect thematic fitting, a lovely hint of ominousness with the "fuel for the fire" labels and whispering, and a very nice design in general.
-E- but what is tendo maya
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About revue, having just finished it so it's fresh in my mind but so my thoughts may not be the most coherent as this is raw writing.
While the giraffe is the metaphor for audience in a way as was fairly blatant... I wouldn't say he wants to see the girls fail. Still a bit of a twat, but not actively working against them.
He wants to see the most spectacular show possible, the stars of stars making the best performance they can. The fact that in his way, those who didnt make it suffer is not a goal in and of itself ala the bunnycat. It was just a by product, a necessary thing for the shine he wanted. Something he was apathetic to.
And for all Hikari suffered in her stage, that was the stage she chose. She chose to take the suffering for everyone.
But then here comes karen, who completely shatters the idea of there needing to be tragedy involved in the performance, even willing suffering. Her performance is one built off nothing but love and passion for the performance. There will still be long nights, aching practice, blood sweat and tears. But none of it will be suffering- the change to the script of the play + leaving the book behind in the sand reflect that it is absolutely possible to have a wonderful performance without suffering or tragedy.
And what does the giraffe think when he sees this performance, Karens refutation of the idea that suffering is part of art in the final [I AM REBORN] scene?
He thinks it's the most lovely thing he's ever seen.
Is roughly my thoughts.
TLDR- giraffe isnt actively malicious IMO, and the series as a whole goes very MG in the messaging by rejecting the idea of suffering.
I also adore it for how the characters are rivals, not enemies, frequently gain something even when they lose (both very magical girl things), the lovely OST and the visuals as well. The [I AM REBORN] transformation sequence is particularly nice IMO, with perfect thematic fitting, a lovely hint of ominousness with the "fuel for the fire" labels and whispering, and a very nice design in general.
-E- but what is tendo maya
I think you hit the nail on the head here. I just binged the whole damn show last weekend and I'm in love with it. The message I got for the most part was that artists don't have to tear each other down to be good at what they do and that performances are better when you lift each other up instead of stomping someone down. There is rivalry, but it is a friendly rivalry, which made me super happy. Even when the auditions got almost literally cut-throat, all of the girls were friends who supported each other.
Also, like you said: suffering is not required for art. There will be struggle and hard work and you might face difficulty and pain but suffering, actual suffering? Not necessary. That's why you have your fellow performers, to help hold you up when you feel like you can't keep going, to remind you that you don't need to suffer to produce good art.
Also, like you said: suffering is not required for art. There will be struggle and hard work and you might face difficulty and pain but suffering, actual suffering? Not necessary. That's why you have your fellow performers, to help hold you up when you feel like you can't keep going, to remind you that you don't need to suffer to produce good art.
Honestly I fell in love with this show and its music. I want everyone to watch it but everyone I know seems to be sleeping on it.
Sightedjt
Everlasting Flames
Mm, it's such a good show, probly the best mahou show I've seen in years and it does such a good job of merging mahou themes with the art direction.
I have been recommending it to my friends who watch anime as well, using long rambling explanations that burn my throat out. Not as a reason why they should watch it, as a threat for if they don't
I have been recommending it to my friends who watch anime as well, using long rambling explanations that burn my throat out. Not as a reason why they should watch it, as a threat for if they don't
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Part of the problem is that Hidive still has no PS4 app and I literally didn't know it existed until I went to watch Revue Starlight.
Well Hidive is coming to VRV next month and that has a PS4 app but that is 10 buck a month while hidive by itself is 5. But yeah Hidive is a mess as far as apps go. The big reason I have never tried it out is because they don't have a roku app.
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Yeah paying 5 bucks a month for Hidive is one thing but paying another 10 for ANOTHER service just so I can watch it on the TV? I'll just get an extra HDMI cable.
The 10 bucks includes Hidive but yeah it is still an extra 5 bucks a month if you care about any of the other things on Vrv. The only solution is to nationalize anime.
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Something to note about Revue Starlight is that it is very specifically an elaborate critique of the Takarazuka Revue, and while it has hint of magical girl in it, it's not really a 'magical girl show.'
no.
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If we impose stringent aesthetic restrictions on what counts as a MG show, we remove much more good shows than bad ones. I'd rather have a murky genre than one where trash like Prisma Ilya and Raising Project and Site make up half the works.