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The Enemy Within (WHF Witch Hunter Quest)

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Netos said:
Changing opinion. Ending the quest in the mines as Etelka Herzen collapses the mountain on us would be glorious, but overrated.
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Not to mention the fact, that Max might have a similar opinion (in addition to his dislike for mutants) and will refuse to follow Markus outside, since the tower is the safest possible place in defend from.

This witch and one gambler did refuse to follow our lead at some point, when they considered our plan stupid, therefore it might happen again.
 
[X] Reinforce the Mines

Max might be mad, but I doubt he fancies his chances against ??? of Chaos' second smelliest children alone. He'll follow.

And I firmly agree that we have a much better chance of fulfilling at least one of our win conditions by going to help the people we've been backing all along. If the witch escapes? Well, shit, that's a problem for tomorrow.

Let's not abandon our healer, if nothing else.
 
Sertorius said:
It matters little what will happen to the mutants. The Dwarfs have now 2 grudges to settle (one against Etelka and another against the mutants, that squat in their mine). Even if they survive this encounter, the Dawi will assault this place one day and slay all who inhabit it to reinforce their claim to the mine and it has nothing to do with who lives there. However, the Clan knows, that nobody will defend the mutants and their rights, therefore they will gladly seize the opportunity to attack them without repurcussions.
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I'm always kind of fascinated when I see posts like this, since they crop up with a fair degree of regularity in anything dwarf-related on SV, because they always seem to be based on the unspoken assumption that the law doesn't apply to dwarves.

As Markus figured out in the update, the dwarves have no legal claim to the mine at Black Peaks. It was theirs for generations, and then when they believed it was exhausted and tapped out, they sold it to Etelka Herzen, entirely legally and for an agreed upon fee. They later regretted that decision, but the facts of the matter don't change. If they reoccupy the mine in the future and kill those who object, that will in fact be theft and mass murder.

No other group gets accorded this kind of leeway in fandom circles. Just the dwarves.
 
I'm not sure it's quite leeway, I dont think people are calling it a good thing after all.

Just the assumption that a slighted Dwarf will fuck you up if they get any opportunity. And if they cant fuck you up, they fuck your descendants up.
 
Maugan Ra said:
I'm always kind of fascinated when I see posts like this, since they crop up with a fair degree of regularity in anything dwarf-related on SV, because they always seem to be based on the unspoken assumption that the law doesn't apply to dwarves.

As Markus figured out in the update, the dwarves have no legal claim to the mine at Black Peaks. It was theirs for generations, and then when they believed it was exhausted and tapped out, they sold it to Etelka Herzen, entirely legally and for an agreed upon fee. They later regretted that decision, but the facts of the matter don't change. If they reoccupy the mine in the future and kill those who object, that will in fact be theft and mass murder.

No other group gets accorded this kind of leeway in fandom circles. Just the dwarves.
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I think in this case his argument is that they'll get away with theft and mass murder because they'll be stealing from and mass murdering mutants, who no one cares about. The implication being that it'd be very different if they were normal humans.
 
Didn't the Dwarfs only arrive at the mine something like 30 years ago?

Besides. I don't think that post is meant to say that the Dwarfs would be in their right to do so, more that there isn't anything anyone will do to stop them. The villagers want to Dwarfs gone, the Dwarfs want the mountain because they've fixated on it both out of stubbornness and hope. We've just seen that the villagers won't lift a finger to defend the mutants. Something you confirmed as GM.

Unless something is happening in the background, Markus himself being here is the only thing that's stopping two dozen or so Dwarven warriors from marching up the mountain in the belief that it is theirs by right. But Markus cannot stay here forever.
 
Warmachine375 said:
Why can't they just buy it back from her? It's not like a difficult thing to do.
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Because Etelka didn't want to sell. She had plans for that land, generally along the lines of "this is a good place for me to set up a hidden cult base and mutant enclave".

Dutch said:
Didn't the Dwarfs only arrive at the mine something like 30 years ago?

Besides. I don't think that post is meant to say that the Dwarfs would be in their right to do so, more that there isn't anything anyone will do to stop them. The villagers want to Dwarfs gone, the Dwarfs want the mountain because they've fixated on it both out of stubbornness and hope. We've just seen that the villagers won't lift a finger to defend the mutants. Something you confirmed as GM.

Unless something is happening in the background, Markus himself being here is the only thing that's stopping two dozen or so Dwarven warriors from marching up the mountain in the belief that it is theirs by right. But Markus cannot stay here forever.
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Oh I'm certainly not saying that the mutants et all are in any kind of strong position (though with the trade ties Markus has helped them establish they're in a lot better of a place than they previously were), or that the dwarves are not a problem. I'm just noting that an argument founded in "these guys are going to get murdered and displaced from their homes sooner or later, so we shouldn't bother helping them now" is the sort of argument I literally only see applied when the ones doing the murdering and displacing are dwarves.
 
Andres said:
They're not going to give her money after she cheated them, especially for land that should be theirs anyway.
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Oh yeah true. It's like how the Dawi got cheated out of 3 more pennies they were supposed to have the exact amount before destroying the castle they built for the Imperial noble.

Maugan Ra said:
Because Etelka didn't want to sell. She had plans for that land, generally along the lines of "this is a good place for me to set up a hidden cult base and mutant enclave".
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Ah, okay then. Damn, this is gonna be a Splash Zone when the fighting begins.

Obligatory Team Four Star reference.
 
Andres said:
They're not going to give her money after she cheated them, especially for land that should be theirs anyway.
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She didn't cheat them thought, and challenging it should not be that difficult if there existed a deal. The Dwarves and Empire have coexisted for several thousand years, i find it extremely difficult to believe that this is a situation that can't be solved by just asking the nearest hold what the fuck do these dwarves think they are doing.

Because if no such solution exists, Karaz Ankor and Empire should've destroyed each other aeon or two ago and t he entire setting makes no sense.
 
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pucflek said:
The Dwarves and Empire has coexisted for several thousand years
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The long-lasting alliance between the Empire and Dawi happened when Sigmar was just going for a very enthusiastic walk and saved High King Kurgan Ironbeard from the Orcs, which the latter gave him Ghal Maraz as a gift and then they team up together to win at the First Battle of Black Fire Pass.

And the Dawi gave the Runefangs to Sigmar and his comrades who became the first of the Elector Counts of the Empire.
 
Well in that case they should be clapped in irons i guess. Just gotta find someone high enough on the totem pole to see about that, because stealing land is a fairly grave offense, especially in pseudo feudal society where ownership of land is the basis for power and wealth.
 
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pucflek said:
She didn't cheat them thought, and challenging it should not be that difficult if there existed a deal. The Dwarves and Empire has coexisted for several thousand years, i find it extremely difficult to believe that this is a situation that can't be solved by just asking the nearest hold what the fuck do these dwarves think they are doing.
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To be fair, in theory she might've cheated them. Using magic and other trickery to ensure that you get a good deal is something you can do, and we don't really have a good grasp on what kind of spells Etelka can and cannot do. Maybe she really did muddle the minds of the dwarves she struck a deal with!

Of course, we don't have any evidence to suggest that she did this. And more importantly, neither do the dwarves.
 
Maugan Ra said:
No other group gets accorded this kind of leeway in fandom circles. Just the dwarves.
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Like others said, we are not talking about the law, but the Dawi mindset. They were cheated (or so they say) and might think the deal to be null and void.
Maugan Ra said:
"these guys are going to get murdered and displaced from their homes sooner or later, so we shouldn't bother helping them now" is the sort of argument I literally only see applied when the ones doing the murdering and displacing are dwarves.
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Because they will.

It will take a day, a week, a month or a 100 years. But it will happen one day, unless their grudge is settled without spilling blood. You say, that the Dwarfs act like the law doesn't apply to them. This is obviously not true. They have lived in the Empire for many, many generations and have adapted well. But their cultural imperative, which is recording and avenging grudges is always there. They are simply programmed to do so, like a predator is destined to hunt and kill in order to survive. I assumed, that they will notice the obvious opportunity of settling their grudge by using the limbo they are in right now and a lack of authority, that might be able to stop them. Is this against the law? Of course it is. Yet such things do happen and there is a criminal element among the Dwarfs as well, they are not saints at all. Like you said, Dawi are not reasonable, most of the time.

This is your Quest and you will do as you please. I just thought that is what they might possibly do.
 
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Warmachine375 said:
Oh yeah true. It's like how the Dawi got cheated out of 3 more pennies they were supposed to have the exact amount before destroying the castle they built for the Imperial noble.
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The event as listed in the Empire army book's timeline works great as a joke or as the mythologisation of an actual event, but poorly as something that literally happened. However, there was a similar fight in a White Dwarf article over a similarly small sum of money (12 gc), but the surrounding context makes more sense. Specifically, warnings and sustained oath-breaking over multiple years were involved.

pucflek said:
She didn't cheat them thought, and challenging it should not be that difficult if there existed a deal.
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The dwarfs think she cheated them, which is all that matters insofar as whether or not they're willing to buy back the land off of her.
 
Sertorius said:
Like others said, we are not talking about the law, but the Dawi mindset. They were cheated (or so they say) and might think the deal to be null and void.

Because they will.

It will take a day, a week, a month or a 100 years. But it will happen one day, unless their grudge is settled without spilling blood. You say, that the Dwarfs act like the law doesn't apply to them. This is obviously not true. They have lived in the Empire for many, many generations and have adapted well. But their cultural imperative, which is recording and avenging grudges is always there. They are simply programmed to do so, like a predator is destined to hunt and kill in order to survive. I assumed, that they will notice the obvious opportunity of settling their grudge by using the limbo they are in right now and a lack of authority, that might be able to stop them. Is this against the law? Of course it is. Yet such things do happen and there is a criminal element among the Dwarfs as well, they are not saints at all. Like you said, Dawi are not reasonable, most of the time.

This is your Quest and you will do as you please. I just thought that is what they might possibly do.
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All the more reason to defend the mutants and uphold the laws protecting them.

[X] Reinforce the Mines
You will break through the encircling beastmen and join Elvyra and the mutants in the mines. This will concentrate your forces in a single defensible location, but will also surrender all initiative and render you a clustered target for Etelka's spells, assuming she is willing to draw close enough to find line of sight.
 
If the dwarves are so inherently unreasonable, then we should eliminate them to spare their victims, their descendants victims, etc.
 
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