The dirt under your nails - ARCANE

[Ford Prefect]

But given how the narrative validates Vender I am pretty sure that is exactly what is going to happen.

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I think that the show demonstrates that he is, in many ways, a good father, but I don't think it necessarily takes his 'side' as such. Fundamentally, Vander did participate in the earlier conflict with Piltover, a conflict which he, and the undercity in general, lost. He doesn't want to try again because he knows that if it happens, a lot of people will die. In Act I, Vander is really torn between wanting to protect Violet, Powder and the boys while also knowing that if Piltover doesn't get what they want, they will come and take it, and people will die.

And like ... I don't think the show condemns this view because, in a lot of ways, it's fair. If he stages a revolt against topside, then the enforcers will come through and shoot however many people they need to make the revolt stop. There will be a lot of dead bodies, and a lot more orphans. But I don't think the show shies away from demonstrating how temporary, and how fundamentally fragile, the peace between both halves of the city really is. One little screw up by some kids almost plunged the city back into civil war.

 

[random_human]

I think that the show demonstrates that he is, in many ways, a good father, but I don't think it necessarily takes his 'side' as such. Fundamentally, Vander did participate in the earlier conflict with Piltover, a conflict which he, and the undercity in general, lost. He doesn't want to try again because he knows that if it happens, a lot of people will die. In Act I, Vander is really torn between wanting to protect Violet, Powder and the boys while also knowing that if Piltover doesn't get what they want, they will come and take it, and people will die.

And like ... I don't think the show condemns this view because, in a lot of ways, it's fair. If he stages a revolt against topside, then the enforcers will come through and shoot however many people they need to make the revolt stop. There will be a lot of dead bodies, and a lot more orphans. But I don't think the show shies away from demonstrating how temporary, and how fundamentally fragile, the peace between both halves of the city really is. One little screw up by some kids almost plunged the city back into civil war.

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No, I think Vander is obviously meant to be right. 'Vander has fair views' doesn't really work as a point against 'Real change by the oppressed is too hard and evil, better to just make friends with the people in charge.' I don't even think we're even meant to question if Vander is right or not, since Silco demonstrably makes things worse, is a drug lord creating addictions, and also tried to murder our protagonists multiple times for not going along with his plans. Certainly The attempted murder and the drugs also ties into the very related theme of "the people wanting to end oppression are worse for the oppressed than the actual oppressors," which is... what does it even say about our society and how propagandised it is that is keeps churning out these stories?

Also apparently Vi and Jinx are archenemies in the lore and I really hope that's not how it ends. If they had never reunited or reunited at a later point when it's too late to reconcile then okay, but they have already and it was really heartfelt and they only got separated by some really bad timing and luck and it'll feel really contrived. Really hoping they go off the rails.

 

[Ford Prefect]

No, I think Vander is obviously meant to be right. 'Vander has fair views' doesn't really work as a point against 'Real change by the oppressed is too hard and evil, better to just make friends with the people in charge.' I don't even think we're even meant to question if Vander is right or not, since Silco demonstrably makes things worse, is a drug lord creating addictions, and also tried to murder our protagonists multiple times for not going along with his plans. Certainly The attempted murder and the drugs also ties into the very related theme of "the people wanting to end oppression are worse for the oppressed than the actual oppressors," which is... what does it even say about our society and how propagandised it is that is keeps churning out these stories?

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You can't just say 'no,' this shit is literally in the show lol. Multiple characters, inclluding one of the protagonists, basically say 'our current situation is not sustainable.' It's not an unknown element in the story. moreover, in terms of presentation, Vander's backstory also includes attempted murder and betrayal of someone who was essentially his younger brother, while Silco has clearly quite sincere father-daughter relationship with Powder. At the same time, Vander is driven by a desire not to see more people die and to protect his children, while Silco is driven by a desire for his own power and is willing to threaten someone's daughter to get his way. They are hardly equivalent, and yes Silco is the bad guy of the piece, but equally the picture being painted isn't exactly black and white. There are layers to these conflicts.

It's like when Heimerdinger gets fired. Nothing Jayce says is actually wrong, and he is driven by a genuine desire to do right by the people of his city. Equally, Heimerdinger's fears around magic are hardly unwarranted, and he is also driven by a genuine desire to do right by the people of his city. There's a certain complexity to many of the interpersonal conflicts at play in this story. And, look, it's possible that Act III might drop the ball. Or it might not. A huge part of what makes the show compelling is the character interplay, and that's been genuinely pretty exceptional so far.

 

[Sara]

You can't just say 'no,' this shit is literally in the show lol. Multiple characters, inclluding one of the protagonists, basically say 'our current situation is not sustainable.' It's not an unknown element in the story. moreover, in terms of presentation, Vander's backstory also includes attempted murder and betrayal of someone who was essentially his younger brother, while Silco has clearly quite sincere father-daughter relationship with Powder. At the same time, Vander is driven by a desire not to see more people die and to protect his children, while Silco is driven by a desire for his own power and is willing to threaten someone's daughter to get his way. They are hardly equivalent, and yes Silco is the bad guy of the piece, but equally the picture being painted isn't exactly black and white. There are layers to these conflicts.

It's like when Heimerdinger gets fired. Nothing Jayce says is actually wrong, and he is driven by a genuine desire to do right by the people of his city. Equally, Heimerdinger's fears around magic are hardly unwarranted, and he is also driven by a genuine desire to do right by the people of his city. There's a certain complexity to many of the interpersonal conflicts at play in this story. And, look, it's possible that Act III might drop the ball. Or it might not. A huge part of what makes the show compelling is the character interplay, and that's been genuinely pretty exceptional so far.

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Yeah but it's also not THAT much like Heimerdinger getting fired for reasons you've pointed out in your post. When the show makes these characters conflicts revolve around a 'safe' topic like whether Heimerdinger's fears of magic justify his decisions both characters get to actually have sincere belief's in their positions and actually care about the people who live in the city in general. On the other hand when it comes to presenting characters who clash about whether it's okay to use violence to end oppression...

Only Vander get to be driven by a genuine desire to do right by the people of his city, whereas Silco as you admitted yourself is just power hungry and the fact that the best thing you can say about him is that he isn't literally a caricature of a human being with no one else he cares about doesn't really do much to ameroliate that. Whatever weight this sort of character conflict can have is always going to be muddied by the fact that we know one of them doesn't believe a word their saying and is out for themselves. Which, as people have pointed out, is just kind of how media like this always tend to portray characters who agitate for violence in these sorts of situations and it's just such a tired cliche at this point. Edit: People like SIlco in these sort of stories can never just be wrong or flawed people with sympathetic motivations, that always seem to have to literally be hypocrites who don't actually care about the problems they claim to want to fight to end and are only using the movements they influence for their own selfish ends, and I don't think the fact that keeps happening is a coincidence either.

You don't have to make him not a villain, but I genuinely think the story would be better served if they were actually more like the Heimerdinger/Jayce conflict, two flawed but sympathetic people with genuine interest in doing whats right whose value clashes lead them to conflict, and that said story would have been made worse if one of Jayce or Heimerdinger had just been self interested egoists who didn't REALLY care about the people their decisions impacted, yknow?

 

[Cetashwayo]

Sorry, in what way is Silco not doing what he thinks is best for Zaun? He maintains blackmail over Marcus to keep the enforcers off him and genuinely seeks ways to not fall behind the topsiders in a magical arms race. His conflict with Vander is not just that they both believe in revolution, it is that Vander does not and he has given up. Silco is power hungry, sure, but he is never really portrayed as a hypocrite or anything like that. He is genuinely sympathetic in moments like the baptism and his hug of Powder, and treats her more like a rebellious teenager than an expendable mook.

One of the ironies of Act 2 is that the way Silco is talking to Jinx is reminscient of the way Vander talked to Vi in Act 1.

We do have self-interested egoists in Piltover, namely the entire council besides Heimerdinger. Jayce is immediately inculcated into the web of blatant corruption by Mel. Viktor is pushed consistently by Jayce's own complete obliviousness and drinking of the Political Kool Aid into pursuing much less ethical means of science. Jayce is basically a rope being pulled backwards and forwards by Viktor and Mel as he is way out of his depth and his morality is weaker than his ego, which Mel flatters.

 

[Gul Damar]

Also, really hoping the plot of this city isn't just another rehash of "Revolution is bad and enacting real change is too messy. Do nothing and hope that the people in charge will grant you some token symbolic gesture in the vague direction of change". But given how the narrative validates Vender I am pretty sure that is exactly what is going to happen.

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I find that to be extremely rare in fiction, where instead revolutions violently overthrowing the existing order always work out fine and only good governments and good societal changes happen as a result.

 

[BossFight]

I find that to be extremely rare in fiction, where instead revolutions violently overthrowing the existing order always work out fine and only good governments and good societal changes happen as a result.

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Can you recommend these stories where violent revolutions overthrow the existing order and everything works out? Because that sounds right up my alley.

 

[Xepheria]

I don't think the show shies away from showing the excesses of Piltoverian corruption and decadence and the extreme way that they maintain the current social order, or that the current situation between the two cities is inherently unsustainable.

Silco is, in my opinion, very much the hero of his own story. He sees this disparity, and elects not to bother with peaceful methods, because in his view (and probably correctly), they do not work. So long as the current disparity in power exists, there can never be a conversation or a peaceful resolution to the conflict, and the people of Zaun will never be afforded the respect that they are due.

('It's a bit crude, the base violence necessary for change.')

One of his driving goals in the show is to equalise that power disparity, seeking an edge for the Zaunites, any edge, regardless of morality. Because when it comes down to it it, the conflict is not fair, and time and time again Piltover has been shown to cast off the veneer of fairness and progress in brutal crackdowns to maintain the hierarchy, and their privilege. Silco is not an unsympathetic villain, nor is he presented as one by the show - his motivations are fundamentally understandable. Even the lengths to which he'll go are reasonable from a certain perspective - abandoning the rules and restrictions of decency that the 'enemy' only pays lip service to until it's inconvenient to do so.

On the flip-side, Vander's perspective is also completely understandable - he lead a failed revolution, and got a staggering number of people killed, people that he knew and loved. To not want such a thing to occur again, to not want the weight of more death laid upon his shoulders, to not want more orphans made by his own hands is a reactionary view, but I don't think it's wrong. Violent revolution sucks for those innocents caught in the crossfire.

Arcane is a story of duality and contrast, and there's no 'right' answer here, I think.

 

[10ebbor10]

Silco is, in my opinion, very much the hero of his own story. He sees this disparity, and elects not to bother with peaceful methods, because in his view (and probably correctly), they do not work. So long as the current disparity in power exists, there can never be a conversation or a peaceful resolution to the conflict, and the people of Zaun will never be afforded the respect that they are due.

('It's a bit crude, the base violence necessary for change.')

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For all that Silco talks about the "base violence necessary for change", he doesn't really provide much of either.

The Lanes under Silco are pretty much the same as they were under Vander, even to the point that he replicated the deal Vander made with the enforcers. Probably no coincidence that the person he happens to make said deal with happened to be former's chiefs "though-on-crime" underling.

Both speak much harder than they act.

 

[Xicree]

Sorry, in what way is Silco not doing what he thinks is best for Zaun? He maintains blackmail over Marcus to keep the enforcers off him and genuinely seeks ways to not fall behind the topsiders in a magical arms race. His conflict with Vander is not just that they both believe in revolution, it is that Vander does not and he has given up. Silco is power hungry, sure, but he is never really portrayed as a hypocrite or anything like that. He is genuinely sympathetic in moments like the baptism and his hug of Powder, and treats her more like a rebellious teenager than an expendable mook.

One of the ironies of Act 2 is that the way Silco is talking to Jinx is reminscient of the way Vander talked to Vi in Act 1.

We do have self-interested egoists in Piltover, namely the entire council besides Heimerdinger. Jayce himself is immediately inculcated into the web of blatant corruption by Mel. Viktor is pushed consistently by Jayce's own complete obliviousness and drinking of the Political Kool Aid into pursuing much less ethical means of science. Jayce himself is basically a rope being pulled backwards and forwards by Viktor and Mel as he is way out of his depth and his morality is weaker than his ego, which Mel flatters.

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Silco's Analogue in Piltover is very much Jayce.

And this show tells its stories via mirroring situations.

Ie. Silco is very much someone who STARTED from the premise 'This is what is best for Zaun'... and ended up where we find him today. Still telling himself that what he is doing is 'For the Best'... but is also mired deep in the corruption inherent while Grasping the power needed to change the system. And that he is someone who has tried it other ways first (Ie the Protest/Combat at the bridge)... only to be shattered by the experience.

For all that Silco talks about the "base violence necessary for change", he doesn't really provide much of either.

The Lanes under Silco are pretty much the same as they were under Vander, even to the point that he replicated the deal Vander made with the enforcers. Probably no coincidence that the person he happens to make said deal with happened to be former's chiefs "though-on-crime" underling.

Both speak much harder than they act.

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Because, as I point out. Silco's Mirror in Piltover is Jayce.

He came to power WANTING to change things... but then bit by bit the very means of gathering that power overtook the REASON for doing so.

Ie much like Jayce for various reasons which seemed completely logical to him at the time accepted and allowed the corruption of the council to carry on, it seems that Silco has done the same. Thus settling back into the comfortable status quo despite his entire reason for going after power... was to break it.


Frankly the story is very much a case study in all the ways the well meaning can end up perpetuating systems of injustice because the very process of becoming Able to attack the system tends to draw you at least somewhat into it's grip.

 

[BossFight]

The problem with that is well...

Jayce has made Piltover a better place? The hexgates have given Piltover even more peace, prosperity and income then ever before. Since he has come to power, Piltover has only become better.

Silco, by contrast has made the undercity demonstrably worse. Its darker, more violent, more drug ridden then ever.

Like, just look at their framing:
When Jayce comes to power we get Progress Day. A grand celebration of how much better things have gotten and where everyone is happy.

When Silco takes over we get... well whorehouses and drug addicts.

And that's not even going into how these introductions treat our viewpoint characters. In Progress day Jayce is happy, Viktor is happy, Mel is happy. Everyone is living their best life.

In Silco's undercity... well the focus is very much on how his rule has brought everyone we care about down low. Vi was in prison, the short goblin lady is a Brothel owner now, the glasses guy is a drug addict who'd sell out Vi for another hit, Jinx is in the middle of a nervous breakdown.

If the two were really supposed to be mirrors of each other, then it feels weird that there hasn't been any focus on the people Jayce has hurt? There should be runoff from his magic experiments tainting the lower city (in the same way Silco's drugs do), there should be a growing criminal element arising as a direct result of him allowing corruption into the hexgates, there should be something that shows he is actively making things worse.

But there isn't.

 

[Xepheria]

Frankly the story is very much a case study in all the ways the well meaning can end up perpetuating systems of injustice because the very process of becoming Able to attack the system tends to draw you at least somewhat into it's grip.

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I absolutely agree, and this is something echoed in the writing and design of the show. If you pay attention, you'll notice that, despite Silco's desire to upend the power dynamics of Piltover, and win respect for Zaun and it's people as its own entity, he ends up defining himself by them. Amidst all the chaos and asymmetry of the Undercity, Silco and later, his goons outside the Last Drop are the only people that adopt the same highly symmetrical, well-cut fashions seen in Piltover. His methods also take a turn for the Piltoveran once he seizes the position of leadership from Vander - less focused on direct, violent revolution and more on social and economic control afforded to him by his position and connections. The same system he wishes (or wished?) to break has him ensnared within its grasp.

 

[Mook]

The problem with that is well...

Jayce has made Piltover a better place? The hexgates have given Piltover even more peace, prosperity and income then ever before. Since he has come to power, Piltover has only become better.

Silco, by contrast has made the undercity demonstrably worse. Its darker, more violent, more drug ridden then ever.

Like, just look at their framing:
When Jayce comes to power we get Progress Day. A grand celebration of how much better things have gotten and where everyone is happy.

When Silco takes over we get... well whorehouses and drug addicts.

And that's not even going into how these introductions treat our viewpoint characters. In Progress day Jayce is happy, Viktor is happy, Mel is happy. Everyone is living their best life.

In Silco's undercity... well the focus is very much on how his rule has brought everyone we care about down low. Vi was in prison, the short goblin lady is a Brothel owner now, the glasses guy is a drug addict who'd sell out Vi for another hit, Jinx is in the middle of a nervous breakdown.

If the two were really supposed to be mirrors of each other, then it feels weird that there hasn't been any focus on the people Jayce has hurt? There should be runoff from his magic experiments tainting the lower city (in the same way Silco's drugs do), there should be a growing criminal element arising as a direct result of him allowing corruption into the hexgates, there should be something that shows he is actively making things worse.

But there isn't.

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Did you miss that bit where Jayce calls out Heimdigger for allowing corruption and shit into the system right after partaking in a whole bunch of political corruption himself and then follows it up by putting the squeeze on the undercity in the name of security?

That scene where a bunch of Enforcers deck themselves out in full Stormtrooper gear and load live ammunition before setting up a blockage in a direct homage to the massacre that started off the first episode wasn't exactly subtle. And it's pretty clearly that his actions there is going to be the spark that sets the cities on fire.



Not to mention that it's telling that so far all the people Jayce have made happy with his tech are people who already had everything but when he and Viktor work on stuff that will benefit the working class that's when he finally started listening to the rodent about safety and taking it slow.

If he and Victor split as seems inevitable then he's pretty much locked into a path where he makes Hextech something exclusive and highly restricted and actively used it to fight against the people of the undercity instead of helping them.

 

[10ebbor10]

Did you miss that bit where Jayce calls out Heimdigger for allowing corruption and shit into the system right after partaking in a whole bunch of political corruption himself and then follows it up by putting the squeeze on the undercity in the name of security?

That scene where a bunch of Enforcers deck themselves out in full Stormtrooper gear and load live ammunition before setting up a blockage in a direct homage to the massacre that started off the first episode wasn't exactly subtle. And it's pretty clearly that his actions there is going to be the spark that sets the cities on fire.

Not to mention that it's telling that so far all the people Jayce have made happy with his tech are people who already had everything but when he and Viktor work on stuff that will benefit the working class that's when he finally started listening to the rodent about safety and taking it slow.

If he and Victor split as seems inevitable then he's pretty much locked into a path where he makes Hextech something exclusive and highly restricted and actively used it to fight against the people of the undercity instead of helping them.

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I think the impression comes from the fact that the Lanes don't seem to have their own, native genuine reformer. They're certainly capable of scientific innovation, the show shows us how the drug that was developed allows for advanced prosthetics and rapid healing potions, but it's portrayed almost entirely in a negative light and the scientist behind it gets major mad scientists vibes.

So, while on the side of Pilltover you have multiple genuine people who are either shackled or being slowly corrupted by the system, on the side of the Lanes you don't have any of them at all. The closest is Vi, but she's merely looking out for her sister and seems poised to switch to the side of Pilltover and join the Enforcers..

I don't think it's flaws. Not everything needs to be paralleled. You can make a good story where reform is something idly considered by the rich and privileged, while the oppressed can only chose survival.

 

[Ford Prefect]

Jayce has made Piltover a better place? The hexgates have given Piltover even more peace, prosperity and income then ever before. Since he has come to power, Piltover has only become better.

Silco, by contrast has made the undercity demonstrably worse. Its darker, more violent, more drug ridden then ever.

Click to shrink...

Piltover rising as Zaun falls isn't some kind of moral polemic about how good Piltover is, it's a depiction of the twin cities' material relationship lol

 

[Mook]

I think the impression comes from the fact that the Lanes don't seem to have their own, native genuine reformer. They're certainly capable of scientific innovation, the show shows us how the drug that was developed allows for advanced prosthetics and rapid healing potions, but it's portrayed almost entirely in a negative light and the scientist behind it gets major mad scientists vibes.

So, while on the side of Pilltover you have multiple genuine people who are either shackled or being slowly corrupted by the system, on the side of the Lanes you don't have any of them at all. The closest is Vi, but she's merely looking out for her sister and seems poised to switch to the side of Pilltover and join the Enforcers..

I don't think it's flaws. Not everything needs to be paralleled. You can make a good story where reform is something idly considered by the rich and privileged, while the oppressed can only chose survival.

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We were talking about moral parallels here weren't we?


In terms of reformers we've shown literally in the first scene in the show that the primary reason Zaun doesn't have any positive reformers is because Piltover actively kills them when they try to enact change.

Plus Viktor is a Zaun side reformer and scientist who wants to bring positive change to everyone and keeps getting blocked by the Piltover system.



And I don't get why Zaun should have a bunch of positive scientist. A big point of the place is that everyone there is poor and poorly educated. They don't have the resources of Piltover so of course they can't achieve the same kind of wonders that the people with rich sponsors can.

 

[BossFight]

Did you miss that bit where Jayce calls out Heimdigger for allowing corruption and shit into the system right after partaking in a whole bunch of political corruption himself and then follows it up by putting the squeeze on the undercity in the name of security?

That scene where a bunch of Enforcers deck themselves out in full Stormtrooper gear and load live ammunition before setting up a blockage in a direct homage to the massacre that started off the first episode wasn't exactly subtle. And it's pretty clearly that his actions there is going to be the spark that sets the cities on fire.

Click to shrink...

He didn't call Heimdinger out for corruption, but for not working fast enough.

And that's the big difference. Jayce's immoral actions (which we have seen considerably less of, have not hurt characters we are emotionally invested in, have seen no negative side effects for) are all contrasted with his geniune desire to do good and the the actual material good he has accomplished.

The lanes don't get that. Silco pays lip service to the idea of making the lanes better, but so far everything he has done has made the lanes actively worse. He hasn't done anything to improve their lives. There is no nuance there.

You can argue that Jayce is by and large improving piltover if at a cost.

Silco has done nothing but hurt the lanes.

 

[MinorGryph]

The lanes don't get that. Silco pays lip service to the idea of making the lanes better, but so far everything he has done has made the lanes actively worse. He hasn't done anything to improve their lives. There is no nuance there.

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Silco's ultimate goal was and still appears to be a violent uprising against Piltover in flagrant disregard of the cost to human life this endeavor will take.

 

[Xicree]

Silco's ultimate goal was and still appears to be a violent uprising against Piltover in flagrant disregard of the cost to human life this endeavor will take.

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Because as he sees it, and he's not fully wrong, Piltover has already left them to die a SLOW death... so what does it matter if he spends lives to make things better?

 

[CatOnTheWeb]

Now, I don't particular mind that Silco is a villain. He's a good villain and it works. However, there's very clear differences between how he's shown in Arc 1 vs Arc 2.

In Arc 1, he's someone working in the shadows, taking advantage and opportunity as they come. He feel pragmatic, someone doing what he feels is necessary but not seeking mindless evil. Heck, him pressuring Deckard into taking Shimmer is when he's doing his whole Power monologue, how you have to scrape and struggle if you want to effect change.

But then we get Arc 2, and a lot of the things he's doing are destructive and unhelpful for Zaun. We see the Last Drop, an open bar that has a cluttered chaos with how many people are let in, turned into an exclusive night club with strobing lights, blaring music. The entire undercity is decayed, louder and more dangerous. In the introductory shot in Episode 4, we see a clear wealth gap between the Zaunites themselves. If this sticks to canon those are the likely candidates for the Chembarons and their lackeys.

Now, there's nothing wrong with having Silco only adding to Zaun's problems, crab-buckets are a thing and history is filled with crime lords hurting their community. But Silco isn't being presented as someone with a point by Arc 2's narrative.

Think about how he's framed in episode six, when he's confronting Vi. He's surrounded by fawning beggars, vials of Shimmer in hand like they're treats to tease a dog with.

Silco had a whole lot of 'okay you have a point' elements in Arc 1, but a lot of that has gone away in Arc 2, where he has a measure of power and the means to effect a degree of change.

 

[Mook]

And that's the big difference. Jayce's immoral actions (which we have seen considerably less of, have not hurt characters we are emotionally invested in, have seen no negative side effects for) are all contrasted with his geniune desire to do good and the the actual material good he has accomplished.

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Why the heck do you think I brought up the Stormtroopers? Jayce's actions are clearly being set up to cause death and destruction on a similar scale to that opening sequence. I wouldn't be surprised if his actions there end up causing more death and misery than everything Silco has done in part 1 and 2 combined.

You can argue that Jayce is by and large improving piltover if at a cost.

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And I don't get this. You go on about how Jayce hasn't hurt people we're emotionally invested in but then praise him for helping people we also aren't emotionally invested in.


The faceless masses of Piltover are "you think these people ever go hungry?" and don't really need help. Meanwhile the people we have seen Jayce directly help are basically villains that cause emotional investment in the form of wanting to see them taken down.

Jayce helps the corrupt and uncaring politicians who are directly responsible for all the suffering that has befallen the people we're emotionally invested in. Silco wouldn't even be a villain if not for the council that Jayce is illegally helping become even more powerful.

The council that heard about a scientist storing unstable explosives in his home and decided he could be given a slap on the wrist but wanted to throw a group of kids directly into jail for a simple theft and kept sending stormtroopers to stomp on the little people to get it done. All while placing a higher priority on punishing the thieves than they did on actually locating the stolen goods that were supposedly so dangerous that they justified such a response.

Piltover rising as Zaun falls isn't some kind of moral polemic about how good Piltover is, it's a depiction of the twin cities' material relationship lol

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Also this. If anything Jayce is a better foil precisely because he helps Piltover. Because ultimately he's just helping it enrichen itself even more at Zaun's expense and widening the class divide. Something that Silco even points out in the show. And something that is strongly visualed in the scene where Jayce's orders leads to the Death Corps of Krieg completely cutting off the only access point between the rich and the poor. With the guns very much being pointed in the direction of the poor.

 

[Xicree]

Silco had a whole lot of 'okay you have a point' elements in Arc 1, but a lot of that has gone away in Arc 2, where he has a measure of power and the means to effect a degree of change.

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Like I've been saying, that's kinda the point.

The very methods of Clawing enough power together needed to affect change has in its course also shaped him into a Very callous and ruthless person. His entire philosophy revolves around becoming Callous and Ruthless enough that NO body will want to cross you, that No one would try to stop you from having your way. That this is the lesson he's learned from his time on the bottom.

Ie he sank lower for power, and it's Showing on his character. Its not an indictment on his cause, it's an indictment on the entire system which pushed more reasonable minds from being able to affect change, leaving people like him to become the ones who gain and hold power.

 

[Cetashwayo]

And that's the big difference. Jayce's immoral actions (which we have seen considerably less of, have not hurt characters we are emotionally invested in, have seen no negative side effects for) are all contrasted with his geniune desire to do good and the the actual material good he has accomplished.

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Did you miss the scene where his bro Viktor who he threw to the side in his pursuit of power is literally dying for science while he has sex with the most powerful woman in piltover, in an extremely unsubtle scene contrasting their character arcs

By the time Jayce came around it was already becoming too late for Viktor. He's going to do science no matter what they say and he'll turn to crazy dudes to do it. And that's the point of Piltover - it is profoundly villainous but sheathes that in a golden, pristine steampunk aesthetic. Let's go over Piltover's characters:

• Mel - extreme girlboss but also the literal nexus of corruption in the city
• Heimerdinger - hopelessly disconnected from the human experience but at least potentially well-meaning, which is lost in how he behaves towards Viktor (you don't tell a living person that the fastest flames burn brightest as if his death is already foredained)
• Other councilors - increasingly corrupt people made more corrupt by the hextech, think about how when Jayce was first put on trial the idea of him doing magic was a moral outrage and the robot councilor was like my people got destroyed by magic, and now suddenly they all love it when it makes them money and are willing to vote out heimerdinger for it
• Jayce - the biggest mook of them all, an egoist who believes he has the sole right to dispense with and control the hextech, well-meaning to be sure but always fascinated in himself and what he can do and his responsibility more than helping other people
• Viktor - actively turning away from Piltover and Jayce directly because of Jayce's choices and his inability to actually appreciate or help other people, which is underlined by his class perspective versus viktor who is a zaunite
• Caitlyn - actively has to go against her superiors, who are all wildly corrupt, to do anything (including forging documents), sheltered and naive person who knows she is and hates it
• Marcus - hyper corrupt self-hating man who knows what he is and literally let Vi go to prison for years, an absolute coward of a person
• Grayson - pragmatic dealmaker who nevertheless was forced by the councilors in their literal ivory tower to secure a pound of flesh which led to the entire escalation towards the end of ep3

Who am I missing here because it seems to me like the only good Piltover characters are those who are either being actively fucked by Piltover or have to go against it in order to do anything...?

It honestly feels like people are being somewhat distracted by the aesthetic of Zaun and Piltover and ignoring what's actually going on in the show.

 

[Xicree]

(you don't tell a living person that the fastest flames burn brightest as if his death is already foredained)

Click to shrink...

To be fair, he is as you said PROFOUNDLY disconnected from the Human experience.

When he says something like that, its literally because it's something that he has in all his time observed... and he believes in speaking the truth and stating the facts of a matter.

 

[random_human]

Now, I don't particular mind that Silco is a villain. He's a good villain and it works. However, there's very clear differences between how he's shown in Arc 1 vs Arc 2.

In Arc 1, he's someone working in the shadows, taking advantage and opportunity as they come. He feel pragmatic, someone doing what he feels is necessary but not seeking mindless evil. Heck, him pressuring Deckard into taking Shimmer is when he's doing his whole Power monologue, how you have to scrape and struggle if you want to effect change.

But then we get Arc 2, and a lot of the things he's doing are destructive and unhelpful for Zaun. We see the Last Drop, an open bar that has a cluttered chaos with how many people are let in, turned into an exclusive night club with strobing lights, blaring music. The entire undercity is decayed, louder and more dangerous. In the introductory shot in Episode 4, we see a clear wealth gap between the Zaunites themselves. If this sticks to canon those are the likely candidates for the Chembarons and their lackeys.

Now, there's nothing wrong with having Silco only adding to Zaun's problems, crab-buckets are a thing and history is filled with crime lords hurting their community. But Silco isn't being presented as someone with a point by Arc 2's narrative.

Think about how he's framed in episode six, when he's confronting Vi. He's surrounded by fawning beggars, vials of Shimmer in hand like they're treats to tease a dog with.

Silco had a whole lot of 'okay you have a point' elements in Arc 1, but a lot of that has gone away in Arc 2, where he has a measure of power and the means to effect a degree of change.

Click to shrink...

This. And honestly Silco only has a point if you start sympathetic to his point, which most people aren't given the litany of works with the exact opposite message. If you don't, his evolution is Act 2 is only a natural extension of what was already there.

Arguably he isn't made to be sympathetic by his care for Jinx, given that he tries to murder Vi to keep Jinx and Jinx breaking free of him in the episode six is framed triumphantly and leads to good.

EDIT: "The base level of violence necessary for change" is said when referring to murdering Vander. It's not meant to be something you're sympathetic to.