And then, all it takes is one person to set the same thing in motion......
The Adverse of the Gods and Men (NO SV, You are gonna build a Civilization on a Deathworld, and you are going to like it!)
- Thread starter Cyberphilosipher
- Start date
Yup, unfortunately the pools of Darkness suicide attempt has already happened and she's lived thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands or even millions) of years alone with only Grimm to keep her company while she waited for Humanity to evolve but as long as we can gank Ozma's dumb ass or steal his relics once he's stupid enough to make the deal things should be fairly different.
- Location
- California,USA
Ohh...ABOUT THAT!!
You will be too far away, based on some interesting starting locations I'm writing up.
- Location
- California,USA
Better yet...Make your own.
Hey, that's not a bad idea. But how am I gonna do tha-Oh, right.
In my opinion the Gods were the symbol of the ying and Yang Both represent balance the Grimm to make sure the humans were not greedy enough and the humans to fight back at the Grimm so that they won't destroy them enough
Yeah, except the God of Light let his ego get in the way of his job, and instead of departing from the World with his brother, decided too have them Worship him while leaving his brother on his own.
Honestly i think it was partially out of boredom, until Salem noone had ever bothered to ask him for help (all just went to his brother) so he just.... made Grimm to pass the time and nobody ever thought of asking him to stop because he's a god.
SoixanteZio
Dead man walking
- Location
- anywhere
Perhaps a mother Goddess would do better?
- Location
- USA
or maybe a Father god like in RWBY Atlas quest
Odin, the trickster that gets on both of the immortals nerves by little pranks and actually believing in people?
- Location
- United States
eh father gods also do great in that department but i really depends i mean look at how the aztecs saw their version of mother earth literally a giant monster that wanted to eat them and had to be placated with sacrifice... or did they sacrifice to the sun to stop the earth from eating them? either way women can be dicks too, we're equal opportunity with our disappointment in deities here!
Lugh of the long arm was pretty baller though, if we wanna go that route god king anyone?
Why the gol said no to Salem was because if she got her way then what's says that other will come to ask for their dead to come back to them he was trying to make sure the balance does not go wild in that I mean human greed for more and more, GoD resurect ozma because this was his first follower and this for him was a special thing for him and in his mind just a one in a life time event that he would only do once Also when the GoL said that Salem went to him first it means that if he said no the other would say no if Salem went to the GoD first then the GoL would have not intervened or if he did a full out war between them would of happen and that in it self would be an interesting questline
Still poorly handled........
I mean, murder the guy you just revived, only to bring him back later?
And then there is the fact that they apparently decided to treat her the way they did, and why?
I mean, murder the guy you just revived, only to bring him back later?
And then there is the fact that they apparently decided to treat her the way they did, and why?
Then why did he not say that?
SoixanteZio
Dead man walking
- Location
- anywhere
Dunno. Shrugs
because he was interrupted by Salem he was explaining it before her outburst made him shut up
maybe it was in the pact after their feud was over and that punishment was to teach her the cycle of life and to get that selfishness out of her as she shown after Ozma died but she wasted it and tricked all of humanity to become immortal which force the gods to kill them there was no going back once human greed sits in its hard to get it out and also being immortal is a curse which the gods did not want humanity to have as it will upset their balance if you want to know the story look deeper used every line in the show to know what I mean
- Location
- California,USA
Calling the Vote [X]The Era of the Wandering Tribes:In the beginning Man born from dust.. Was strong, wise and resourceful, pushed into an unforgiving world by the uncaring drive of evolution and the Gods who have abandoned them. Drive forward into this brave new world, as the Grimm tide comes, man and Faunus must rise to meet it or be cast back into the void from whence they came. This is an Era where the Strong live and Die...as the laws of Nature work to cast them into oblivion once again. Build your tribe, unite your people and claw your way back from the oblivion that you hang above. (3000 BGW) wins.
I suspect they rival the 40K Emperor when it comes to social skills.......(maybe, emps had less reasons for things to go wrong)
"Everything was going great until it wasn't"
"Everything was going great until it wasn't"
It probably didn't help that in the quest to commit suicide she threw herself into the pools of destruction which left her part grimm.....
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Hey when you are immortal things get very lonely even if humanity is destroyed you just want to die and be over with it to me it seems Salem has narcissistic personality probably gotten from her dad and in here a weird alternate mental issue
Character Creation 1: The Birth of a Tribe
- Location
- California,USA
Character Creation 1: The Birth of a Tribe
How long have we lived in a World of Darkness, a world of shade and a world of agony.
We have lived and died following the herds, the fish in season, the birds.
We are a kind that has never known peace, only the struggle and the shadow of death.
Ruination falls upon us and the Grimm are innumerable. We are not…
We will go quietly as all the Tribes of the Past have.
NO...WE WILL NOT FALL AGAINST THE NIGHT!!
WE WILL NOT LET THE CRUEL CREATORS OF THIS WORLD HAVE US OR CONTROL US!! WE WILL SEE THE DAWN AGAIN!!
And with those words your tribe was born again, a stronger entity than before.
And hope for the first time was kindled and held aloft for all of Man to see.
It was not without struggle that you came from your former homeland to?:
[]A Small valley between two mountains near a river on the South Eastern side of the Continent (South Eastern Sanus)
[] A place between the coast and the mountains, a lush valley filled with life and game, and the mountains covered the eastern edges, it should be easy to find a river. (Western Sanus)
[] A dry mountain by the sea, A dry harsh environment that is harsh on the life that lives there a dedicated folly for all but the strongest (Eastern Anima)
[]An Island, A temperate place, filled with some game and suitable land. (South western Anima, the Crescent Island.)
[]The Ice Desert of the Northwestern contiant, Life is cruel here and we must be crueler than Life (Solitas)
[]The Nest of the Dark Lands, a Fertile Region between two vastly different places on the same contiant, it was still, as if something terrifying existed just beyond the mountains. (The Dark Continent)
[]The Mouth of the Dragon, The harbor in the Mouth of the Great Dragon, it was a damned and desolate place filled with unease and evil,as if a great tragedy had unfurled here so long ago. (The Northern edge of the Dark continent.)
Now that you have reached relative safety, what is the Name of your Tribe and the people that inhabit it?:
[]Write in the Name of your Tribe.
Who is a part of your tribe who makes up the children of it?:
(What race is your Tribe)
[]Humans
[]Faunus
[]A Mix of Both
Now..onto the Important issues of Boons and Curses:
(Note you must choose one boon and one curse, for every boon there must be a curse along with it, these will build your people and tribes foundation myth and explain a lot actually)
Boons:
[]The Light of the Stars: The Starlight of the Heavens has always been your guide above, sometimes when the tribe sleeps they hear laughter and whispers of a better age, and a possibility of what could be. (Start with 2 Sage/Piety AP as you get some help from friendly ghosts that want to help you for a time)
[]Children of the Broken Moon: When the Tribe was born it survived a great storm of stars in the valley of its creation, the star metal made the first weapons in Man's arsenal, you used them to fight the Grimm in the Battle of the Orange Meadows when Man finally told the Grimm that Extinction was no longer going to just happen in this day, they will fight long and forever against it. (You start with Iron weapons and the ability to make iron weapons from meteors and other exotic space metals. And yes, you use iron when some people still use copper and stones)
[] A Seafarers Child:Man has always been fascinated by the Sea, and its bounty, once your tribe had once mastered the great lake of Anima, you spread to the coast and then into the Seas themselves. No longer bound by the world beneath their feet. (Start with Advanced Navigation tools, and Boats, at least 10 of them)
[]The Child God's Wayfinder: It had come to your Sage's in a Dream, a Baby of an idea, a representation of possibility, they knew not what to make of it. But to follow the crys and prey to the little being inside of their mind that wants to awaken (You got a little spirit looking out for you, and it needs love and prayers to stay alive.)
[]Lord of Hope: You had been blessed with a great many things, a taller and stronger body, greater senses and feelings along with a dream of something resembling a stronger lifeforce, a longer lifespan perhaps, the oldest among the tribe is Forty? (Your tribe has an extended lifespan, are taller and stronger then average thanks to ...an incident in the ages past. This has made many enemies)
[]The Silverlights of the Starry Heavens: A Set of Silver Eyes grace your visage, a gift of unknown origin that has seen your tribe through the darkest of nights and Darkest of battles. It has been one of the finest gifts you have been given, and yet like things it comes with a price. (Silver Eyes, your tribe have a bunch of people with silver eyes and other people want them)
Curses:
[]The First Kinslayers: You've stained the Land and Slain your own Kin. This has stained your tribe forever, none will speak to you and may wish your tibe dead, all of them do, for a crime such as that cannot be forgiven. (You killed your kin, and now alot of people want to kill you horribly for it. Negotiating with people is a bit awkward if not dangerous.)
[]Cursed By Darkness and the Light: Your tribe once met two brothers and spurned them for rude and obstructive behavior, a sense of arrogance they possessed drove your tribe to cast them out. That was the final mistake your predecessor ever did as he was completely obliterated by the concept of Entropy and Life energy making him long for death so badly that he jumped into a volcano...you think he's finally dead.But the point stood that you antagonized something very powerful and they are out to get you. You think for amusement of some amount of slighted pride for not respecting the authority of guest rights, the host is the master of the hall not the guest. (You antagonized the Gods when they came to check on things and they want you to suffer for a thousand moons (At least 20 years), for a frankly petty reason, your sages even pointed out he was in the right and they didn't care, because you made them look bad...something about authority being challenged.)
[]Greed of the Undivided Sun: You made terrible mistakes, coveting another man's possessions, several times...it got to the point where the tribe was not welcome to the great gathering on fear of stealing everything not tied down,now that's ridiculous, we only steal from people we don't like. (Your tribe are known as bandits, thieves and brigands to even the most spread out of places, some details were messed up and they think your greedy grimm, or something dumb like that.)
[]The Beasts Folly: Maybe killing that Faunus Tribe was a bad idea, how were you supposed to know they were going to go to the ends of the earth and make sure your tribe was synonyms to monster in their kind...you only killed a lot of them shit. (You killed some faunus...okay you killed alot of Faunus, and now you are hated by them for fear that you will go after them, and if we were faunus...well they consider you cannibals.)
[]The Kinstrife of the First Sunrise: Your tribe has suffered a bit of bad luck as of late...and by bad luck you mean nearly annihilated by about 2 other greater tribes that wanted your land, food, children and daughters, you father objected to that...and much of your tribe went to make peace after winning a battle. That was the worse mistake they ever made as Three quarters of your tribe was murdered under a symbol of peace, and you were forced to flee with what remained of the tribe...never go to a peace deal without wearing armor. (You lost 3/4s of your population to a betrayal under a peace banner, and you have to deal with that mess now.)
[]The Evertide of Darkness: The Grimm really want to kill you, its like they love the taste of your blood and bones...this is awful...GO KILL SOMEONE ELSE YOU SOULLESS BASTARDS!! (The Grimm want to kill your tribe specifically, like they want you dead before something happens.)
AN: These are strange and unusual enjoy and plan format please.
How long have we lived in a World of Darkness, a world of shade and a world of agony.
We have lived and died following the herds, the fish in season, the birds.
We are a kind that has never known peace, only the struggle and the shadow of death.
Ruination falls upon us and the Grimm are innumerable. We are not…
We will go quietly as all the Tribes of the Past have.
NO...WE WILL NOT FALL AGAINST THE NIGHT!!
WE WILL NOT LET THE CRUEL CREATORS OF THIS WORLD HAVE US OR CONTROL US!! WE WILL SEE THE DAWN AGAIN!!
And with those words your tribe was born again, a stronger entity than before.
And hope for the first time was kindled and held aloft for all of Man to see.
It was not without struggle that you came from your former homeland to?:
[]A Small valley between two mountains near a river on the South Eastern side of the Continent (South Eastern Sanus)
[] A place between the coast and the mountains, a lush valley filled with life and game, and the mountains covered the eastern edges, it should be easy to find a river. (Western Sanus)
[] A dry mountain by the sea, A dry harsh environment that is harsh on the life that lives there a dedicated folly for all but the strongest (Eastern Anima)
[]An Island, A temperate place, filled with some game and suitable land. (South western Anima, the Crescent Island.)
[]The Ice Desert of the Northwestern contiant, Life is cruel here and we must be crueler than Life (Solitas)
[]The Nest of the Dark Lands, a Fertile Region between two vastly different places on the same contiant, it was still, as if something terrifying existed just beyond the mountains. (The Dark Continent)
[]The Mouth of the Dragon, The harbor in the Mouth of the Great Dragon, it was a damned and desolate place filled with unease and evil,as if a great tragedy had unfurled here so long ago. (The Northern edge of the Dark continent.)
Now that you have reached relative safety, what is the Name of your Tribe and the people that inhabit it?:
[]Write in the Name of your Tribe.
Who is a part of your tribe who makes up the children of it?:
(What race is your Tribe)
[]Humans
[]Faunus
[]A Mix of Both
Now..onto the Important issues of Boons and Curses:
(Note you must choose one boon and one curse, for every boon there must be a curse along with it, these will build your people and tribes foundation myth and explain a lot actually)
Boons:
[]The Light of the Stars: The Starlight of the Heavens has always been your guide above, sometimes when the tribe sleeps they hear laughter and whispers of a better age, and a possibility of what could be. (Start with 2 Sage/Piety AP as you get some help from friendly ghosts that want to help you for a time)
[]Children of the Broken Moon: When the Tribe was born it survived a great storm of stars in the valley of its creation, the star metal made the first weapons in Man's arsenal, you used them to fight the Grimm in the Battle of the Orange Meadows when Man finally told the Grimm that Extinction was no longer going to just happen in this day, they will fight long and forever against it. (You start with Iron weapons and the ability to make iron weapons from meteors and other exotic space metals. And yes, you use iron when some people still use copper and stones)
[] A Seafarers Child:Man has always been fascinated by the Sea, and its bounty, once your tribe had once mastered the great lake of Anima, you spread to the coast and then into the Seas themselves. No longer bound by the world beneath their feet. (Start with Advanced Navigation tools, and Boats, at least 10 of them)
[]The Child God's Wayfinder: It had come to your Sage's in a Dream, a Baby of an idea, a representation of possibility, they knew not what to make of it. But to follow the crys and prey to the little being inside of their mind that wants to awaken (You got a little spirit looking out for you, and it needs love and prayers to stay alive.)
[]Lord of Hope: You had been blessed with a great many things, a taller and stronger body, greater senses and feelings along with a dream of something resembling a stronger lifeforce, a longer lifespan perhaps, the oldest among the tribe is Forty? (Your tribe has an extended lifespan, are taller and stronger then average thanks to ...an incident in the ages past. This has made many enemies)
[]The Silverlights of the Starry Heavens: A Set of Silver Eyes grace your visage, a gift of unknown origin that has seen your tribe through the darkest of nights and Darkest of battles. It has been one of the finest gifts you have been given, and yet like things it comes with a price. (Silver Eyes, your tribe have a bunch of people with silver eyes and other people want them)
Curses:
[]The First Kinslayers: You've stained the Land and Slain your own Kin. This has stained your tribe forever, none will speak to you and may wish your tibe dead, all of them do, for a crime such as that cannot be forgiven. (You killed your kin, and now alot of people want to kill you horribly for it. Negotiating with people is a bit awkward if not dangerous.)
[]Cursed By Darkness and the Light: Your tribe once met two brothers and spurned them for rude and obstructive behavior, a sense of arrogance they possessed drove your tribe to cast them out. That was the final mistake your predecessor ever did as he was completely obliterated by the concept of Entropy and Life energy making him long for death so badly that he jumped into a volcano...you think he's finally dead.But the point stood that you antagonized something very powerful and they are out to get you. You think for amusement of some amount of slighted pride for not respecting the authority of guest rights, the host is the master of the hall not the guest. (You antagonized the Gods when they came to check on things and they want you to suffer for a thousand moons (At least 20 years), for a frankly petty reason, your sages even pointed out he was in the right and they didn't care, because you made them look bad...something about authority being challenged.)
[]Greed of the Undivided Sun: You made terrible mistakes, coveting another man's possessions, several times...it got to the point where the tribe was not welcome to the great gathering on fear of stealing everything not tied down,now that's ridiculous, we only steal from people we don't like. (Your tribe are known as bandits, thieves and brigands to even the most spread out of places, some details were messed up and they think your greedy grimm, or something dumb like that.)
[]The Beasts Folly: Maybe killing that Faunus Tribe was a bad idea, how were you supposed to know they were going to go to the ends of the earth and make sure your tribe was synonyms to monster in their kind...you only killed a lot of them shit. (You killed some faunus...okay you killed alot of Faunus, and now you are hated by them for fear that you will go after them, and if we were faunus...well they consider you cannibals.)
[]The Kinstrife of the First Sunrise: Your tribe has suffered a bit of bad luck as of late...and by bad luck you mean nearly annihilated by about 2 other greater tribes that wanted your land, food, children and daughters, you father objected to that...and much of your tribe went to make peace after winning a battle. That was the worse mistake they ever made as Three quarters of your tribe was murdered under a symbol of peace, and you were forced to flee with what remained of the tribe...never go to a peace deal without wearing armor. (You lost 3/4s of your population to a betrayal under a peace banner, and you have to deal with that mess now.)
[]The Evertide of Darkness: The Grimm really want to kill you, its like they love the taste of your blood and bones...this is awful...GO KILL SOMEONE ELSE YOU SOULLESS BASTARDS!! (The Grimm want to kill your tribe specifically, like they want you dead before something happens.)
AN: These are strange and unusual enjoy and plan format please.
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[X] Plan: The Silver Lining
Location:
[X]The Nest of the Dark Lands, a Fertile Region between two vastly different places on the same contiant, it was still, as if something terrifying existed just beyond the mountains. (The Dark Continent)
Tribe:
[X] The Astra Tribe
Race:
[X]A Mix of Both
Boons:
[X]The Light of the Stars: The Starlight of the Heavens has always been your guide above, sometimes when the tribe sleeps they hear laughter and whispers of a better age, and a possibility of what could be. (Start with 2 Sage/Piety AP as you get some help from friendly ghosts that want to help you for a time)
[X]The Silverlights of the Starry Heavens: A Set of Silver Eyes grace your visage, a gift of unknown origin that has seen your tribe through the darkest of nights and Darkest of battles. It has been one of the finest gifts you have been given, and yet like things it comes with a price. (Silver Eyes, your tribe have a bunch of people with silver eyes and other people want them)
Curses:
[X]Cursed By Darkness and the Light: Your tribe once met two brothers and spurned them for rude and obstructive behavior, a sense of arrogance they possessed drove your tribe to cast them out. That was the final mistake your predecessor ever did as he was completely obliterated by the concept of Entropy and Life energy making him long for death so badly that he jumped into a volcano...you think he's finally dead.But the point stood that you antagonized something very powerful and they are out to get you. You think for amusement of some amount of slighted pride for not respecting the authority of guest rights, the host is the master of the hall not the guest. (You antagonized the Gods when they came to check on things and they want you to suffer for a thousand moons (At least 20 years), for a frankly petty reason, your sages even pointed out he was in the right and they didn't care, because you made them look bad...something about authority being challenged.)
[X]The Evertide of Darkness: The Grimm really want to kill you, its like they love the taste of your blood and bones...this is awful...GO KILL SOMEONE ELSE YOU SOULLESS BASTARDS!! (The Grimm want to kill your tribe specifically, like they want you dead before something happens.)
Location:
[X]The Nest of the Dark Lands, a Fertile Region between two vastly different places on the same contiant, it was still, as if something terrifying existed just beyond the mountains. (The Dark Continent)
Tribe:
[X] The Astra Tribe
Race:
[X]A Mix of Both
Boons:
[X]The Light of the Stars: The Starlight of the Heavens has always been your guide above, sometimes when the tribe sleeps they hear laughter and whispers of a better age, and a possibility of what could be. (Start with 2 Sage/Piety AP as you get some help from friendly ghosts that want to help you for a time)
[X]The Silverlights of the Starry Heavens: A Set of Silver Eyes grace your visage, a gift of unknown origin that has seen your tribe through the darkest of nights and Darkest of battles. It has been one of the finest gifts you have been given, and yet like things it comes with a price. (Silver Eyes, your tribe have a bunch of people with silver eyes and other people want them)
Curses:
[X]Cursed By Darkness and the Light: Your tribe once met two brothers and spurned them for rude and obstructive behavior, a sense of arrogance they possessed drove your tribe to cast them out. That was the final mistake your predecessor ever did as he was completely obliterated by the concept of Entropy and Life energy making him long for death so badly that he jumped into a volcano...you think he's finally dead.But the point stood that you antagonized something very powerful and they are out to get you. You think for amusement of some amount of slighted pride for not respecting the authority of guest rights, the host is the master of the hall not the guest. (You antagonized the Gods when they came to check on things and they want you to suffer for a thousand moons (At least 20 years), for a frankly petty reason, your sages even pointed out he was in the right and they didn't care, because you made them look bad...something about authority being challenged.)
[X]The Evertide of Darkness: The Grimm really want to kill you, its like they love the taste of your blood and bones...this is awful...GO KILL SOMEONE ELSE YOU SOULLESS BASTARDS!! (The Grimm want to kill your tribe specifically, like they want you dead before something happens.)
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[X] Plan: The Silver Lining
[X]The Nest of the Dark Lands, a Fertile Region between two vastly different places on the same contiant, it was still, as if something terrifying existed just beyond the mountains. (The Dark Continent)
[X] The Astra Tribe
[X]A Mix of Both
[X]The Light of the Stars: The Starlight of the Heavens has always been your guide above, sometimes when the tribe sleeps they hear laughter and whispers of a better age, and a possibility of what could be. (Start with 2 Sage/Piety AP as you get some help from friendly ghosts that want to help you for a time)
[X]The Silverlights of the Starry Heavens: A Set of Silver Eyes grace your visage, a gift of unknown origin that has seen your tribe through the darkest of nights and Darkest of battles. It has been one of the finest gifts you have been given, and yet like things it comes with a price. (Silver Eyes, your tribe have a bunch of people with silver eyes and other people want them)
[X]Cursed By Darkness and the Light: Your tribe once met two brothers and spurned them for rude and obstructive behavior, a sense of arrogance they possessed drove your tribe to cast them out. That was the final mistake your predecessor ever did as he was completely obliterated by the concept of Entropy and Life energy making him long for death so badly that he jumped into a volcano...you think he's finally dead.But the point stood that you antagonized something very powerful and they are out to get you. You think for amusement of some amount of slighted pride for not respecting the authority of guest rights, the host is the master of the hall not the guest. (You antagonized the Gods when they came to check on things and they want you to suffer for a thousand moons (At least 20 years), for a frankly petty reason, your sages even pointed out he was in the right and they didn't care, because you made them look bad...something about authority being challenged.)
[X]The Evertide of Darkness: The Grimm really want to kill you, its like they love the taste of your blood and bones...this is awful...GO KILL SOMEONE ELSE YOU SOULLESS BASTARDS!! (The Grimm want to kill your tribe specifically, like they want you dead before something happens.)
[X]The Nest of the Dark Lands, a Fertile Region between two vastly different places on the same contiant, it was still, as if something terrifying existed just beyond the mountains. (The Dark Continent)
[X] The Astra Tribe
[X]A Mix of Both
[X]The Light of the Stars: The Starlight of the Heavens has always been your guide above, sometimes when the tribe sleeps they hear laughter and whispers of a better age, and a possibility of what could be. (Start with 2 Sage/Piety AP as you get some help from friendly ghosts that want to help you for a time)
[X]The Silverlights of the Starry Heavens: A Set of Silver Eyes grace your visage, a gift of unknown origin that has seen your tribe through the darkest of nights and Darkest of battles. It has been one of the finest gifts you have been given, and yet like things it comes with a price. (Silver Eyes, your tribe have a bunch of people with silver eyes and other people want them)
[X]Cursed By Darkness and the Light: Your tribe once met two brothers and spurned them for rude and obstructive behavior, a sense of arrogance they possessed drove your tribe to cast them out. That was the final mistake your predecessor ever did as he was completely obliterated by the concept of Entropy and Life energy making him long for death so badly that he jumped into a volcano...you think he's finally dead.But the point stood that you antagonized something very powerful and they are out to get you. You think for amusement of some amount of slighted pride for not respecting the authority of guest rights, the host is the master of the hall not the guest. (You antagonized the Gods when they came to check on things and they want you to suffer for a thousand moons (At least 20 years), for a frankly petty reason, your sages even pointed out he was in the right and they didn't care, because you made them look bad...something about authority being challenged.)
[X]The Evertide of Darkness: The Grimm really want to kill you, its like they love the taste of your blood and bones...this is awful...GO KILL SOMEONE ELSE YOU SOULLESS BASTARDS!! (The Grimm want to kill your tribe specifically, like they want you dead before something happens.)
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Some interesting boons here.
Spirit that could become god?
Silver eyes, the anti-grimm superweapon.
And this? don't know