Teach Me the Dark Soul

[AClassyBunny]

So, I've been playing Dark Souls for about a year and a half now and am absolutely fascinated by the world and lore. Gods and kings, demons and ancient dragons, manipulative religions and wierd giant clam things. Lots to learn and lots to comprehend.
The point is, while I love the series, I don't really have the time/motivation/skills to go through them hundreds of times to pick up every possible tidbit of lore. That's where you come in.
I ask any who are willing to teach me the deepest lore of Dark Souls. I want to know everything from grand tales of knights slaying monsters to your wacky theories of what the Nameless King gets up to on his mountain surrounded by dragons.

I've only played Dark Souls 1 and 3 once each and haven't finished either. That said, spoilers don't bother me and I actually find knowing the tragic backstory of the poor doggo I'm murdering makes the game better. I've heard Dark Souls 2 delves heavily into the whole Hollowing and the darkness of humanity, so don't hold back with that either.

I'll probably also use this as a place to post my theories and random nonsensical thoughts about the series as well, since it's a fun topic of discusion.


Also, sorry if this is the wrong place for this thread (although I can't see why it would be), I haven't really travelled far from the Quests forum, so I have yet to properly learn my way around.

 

[Hykal94]

Have you heard of our lord and saviour, VaatiVidya?

 

[AClassyBunny]

Ah, knew I was forgetting something in my opening post!

Vaati is great and probably the main reason I even comprehend 90% of the stuff I do. That said, while he is a great lore channel, No one knows everything. Besides, I've noticed Dark Souls lore isn't one fact agreed upon by everyone. I want to hear many different opinons and theories, and decide on things from there.

Also, he's focusing on Sekiro at the moment.

 

[Dream Logic]

Um, well what do you want to know? Gwyn and how he fucked up literally everything? How two is actually pretty interesting lore wise but not that great as a souls game. Could cover how the Demons had an actual civlization, what the usurpation of fire probably means in practice...um...there's alot of stuff but we need a direction to go in.

 

[RoyalNoises]

Let's start with the basic primer! It's got some headcanon in there but who cares it's fun.



Put the captions on too, it's worth it.

 

[Guessmyname]

If you have several hours to spare, there is Hawkshaw's timeline video. It's one-and-half hours long, and also has lengthy followups. But it does its best to assemble a complete timeline based off of evidence (notably, Izalith and Daemons are a lot more than they passingly seem).

 

[SeptimusMagisto]

If you want to read item description, you can see them at either of the wikis.

I didn't figure out how to read them on my first playthrough, so I stumbled through the game with almost zero context.

 

[AClassyBunny]

Let's start with the basic primer! It's got some headcanon in there but who cares it's fun.

Click to shrink...

Heh, love that video.

there's alot of stuff but we need a direction to go in.

Click to shrink...

I realise I probably should've specified how much I already know. I'm already familiar with most of what you said.

I guess this is more just for lore discussion than teaching the basics, since I know enough to have my own theories and such..

As for a direction, let's go with... Seath?
I know he created sorcery as one of him many mad attempts to become immortal and probably has something to do with almost every place in the first game to some form. Haven't really seen much about him beyond that though, so let's give the blind mad scientist Duke some love.

 

[Dream Logic]

Ok so first things first, Seethe was the only dragon that did not possess the scales of immortality. This is *complete conjecture based in nothing* but I like to think that he was the last dragon born and that the discovery of the first flame is why he is mortal.

We know that Seethe betrayed his kind but we don't actually know when. He might have helped Gwyn from the beginning or mid way through.

Obviously post Dragons he became a Duke and set about seeking immortality.

The first method we know of was sorcery but it seems that that was a dead end. Notice that sorcery unlike miracles doesn't have access to healing.

His next(?) Attempt was probably Priscilla. She's a half dragon hybrid who posseses the life hunt. That is to say a scythe that is pretty much anti-life and especially attuned for killing gods. Some people posit that Gwynevere was the mother but no such thing has been confirmed. It's possible that there was no mother in fact.

The last attempt we see was those half human hybrid singers. Combining both a fate worse then death and complete failure for his stated goals.

Also it should be noted that exposure to Seethe's library and knowledge seems to drive people insane. Whatever he worked on later in life was damned horrifying.

In dark souls 2 we meet two characters linked to Seethe directly. Scorpioness Nara(?) and the man spider Tarjic(?). Both are half human half insect hybrids ala Quaelog. Tarjic states that Nara went insane at some point but he himself is calm and rational. Speaking to him with a certain ring after killing her has him mention that she and his master will be reborn 'for his rage seethes eternally'.

Later in that game we meet 'The Dukes dear freija' who is a giant two headed spider making her nest on the corpse of a giant spider. She was initially hinted to be one of the four bearers of the great/Lord souls (it has been so long that their names have been lost) and in NG+ the soul becomes 'old pale Drake's soul'.

I don't recall a ton of DS3 but Osiris was definitely transformed by the knowledge he found in Seethe's library. I wouldn't be shocked to find that Ocelot night have been a new vessel for Seethe.

Coincidentally in DS2 Aldia actually figured out perfect immortality but it turned him into a giant burning tree thing that is so removed from the cycle of light and dark 'killing' him doesn't drop souls and he narrates the ending anyways.

 

[AClassyBunny]

His next(?) Attempt was probably Priscilla. She's a half dragon hybrid who posseses the life hunt. That is to say a scythe that is pretty much anti-life and especially attuned for killing gods. Some people posit that Gwynevere was the mother but no such thing has been confirmed. It's possible that there was no mother in fact.

Click to shrink...

I certainly follow the idea that Priscilla is half dragon half god, but I feel like it's a bit of a stretch to say Gwyn would've allowed a dragon, even an ally, to ""get with"" his daughter. I presume she was conceived with magic to merge the two species.

The Lifehunt is an interesting point. I'm sure it's probably meant to be more of a lore thing than gameplay since the gods' response to a little girl with bleeding seems a bit extreme.
That said, what if it's meant to be some extreme form of hemophilia? Royalty has a real world history of it and the gods' could've been spooked by the idea of an injury never healing.

Also, what of Yorshka in DS3? She seems more human sized that Priscilla, so maybe she's half human instead of half god? I don't think her calling Gwyndolin "brother" (swear I heard her say it, but can't find it in her dialogue on the wiki) is a literal thing, more of an adopted brother. Maybe he found her in Seath's archives and took her in as a fellow abomination?

Speaking of Gwyndolin, could the snakes be a connection to the Duke? He claims to be hideous, possibly due to his feminine appearance and human-like size, but I can't really think of anything else. I heard he was pretty much an unwanted failure of a son, even to the point of not having any sign of worship or replacing the First Born after banishment.
So, what if he's not a son of Gwyn at all? His magic is very much related to darkness, so what if he's at least part human? Would explain Gwyn's apparent disliking of the child. (Wild thought, probably nonsense)

 

[DualFront]

Heh, love that video.



I realise I probably should've specified how much I already know. I'm already familiar with most of what you said.

I guess this is more just for lore discussion than teaching the basics, since I know enough to have my own theories and such..

As for a direction, let's go with... Seath?
I know he created sorcery as one of him many mad attempts to become immortal and probably has something to do with almost every place in the first game to some form. Haven't really seen much about him beyond that though, so let's give the blind mad scientist Duke some love.

Click to shrink...

The first method we know of was sorcery but it seems that that was a dead end. Notice that sorcery unlike miracles doesn't have access to healing.

Click to shrink...

I'm fairly certain that Seath originally developed Sorcery to fight the Dragons (as he seems to have lacked their natural breath weapons as well as their immortality), and only later pursued it as a possible path to immortality.

I certainly follow the idea that Priscilla is half dragon half god, but I feel like it's a bit of a stretch to say Gwyn would've allowed a dragon, even an ally, to ""get with"" his daughter. I presume she was conceived with magic to merge the two species.

Click to shrink...

The connection with Gwynevere is tenuous at best anyway. In fact, I think the only evidence towards it is that Priscilla is half-dragon/half-god, almost certainly related to Seath based on her appearance, and Gwynevere is the only female god seen on-screen in all of DS1 (for certain values of onscreen, given that she's actually an illusion). I personally find it unlikely for the same reason you do. Especially since Gwynevere was already in a relationship with another god.

The Lifehunt is an interesting point. I'm sure it's probably meant to be more of a lore thing than gameplay since the gods' response to a little girl with bleeding seems a bit extreme.
That said, what if it's meant to be some extreme form of hemophilia? Royalty has a real world history of it and the gods' could've been spooked by the idea of an injury never healing.

Click to shrink...

I think the Lifehunt is just supposed to be much scarier in lore than it is mechanically (granted that Bleed is one of the scarier status effects, but it's not the scariest). For example, the Lifehunt Scythe Miracle in DS3 does Dark damage and has lifesteal. The Dark aspect in particular would make it a lot scarier to the gods than just a bleed effect it is also totally useless but DS3 shafted Miracles hard in general.

Also, what of Yorshka in DS3? She seems more human sized that Priscilla, so maybe she's half human instead of half god? I don't think her calling Gwyndolin "brother" (swear I heard her say it, but can't find it in her dialogue on the wiki) is a literal thing, more of an adopted brother. Maybe he found her in Seath's archives and took her in as a fellow abomination?

Click to shrink...

There is basically no hard information on Yorshka, iirc. Like we know she showed up out of nowhere and Gwyndolyn took custody of her, and everything else is just speculation. I don't think it's even explicitly stated that she is half dragon. One of the most mysterious figures in the franchise.

Speaking of Gwyndolin, could the snakes be a connection to the Duke? He claims to be hideous, possibly due to his feminine appearance and human-like size, but I can't really think of anything else. I heard he was pretty much an unwanted failure of a son, even to the point of not having any sign of worship or replacing the First Born after banishment.
So, what if he's not a son of Gwyn at all? His magic is very much related to darkness, so what if he's at least part human? Would explain Gwyn's apparent disliking of the child. (Wild thought, probably nonsense)

Click to shrink...

Aside from using Sorcery, Gwyndolyn has no connections to Seath whatsoever that I can recall, nor does he actually have any Dark related abilities despite his name. Gwynodlyn's deal is that he's a god of the Moon and illusions, which were seen as feminine traits, so Gwyn raised him, treated him, and referred to him as a girl because it turns out that Gwyn was actually a raging jackass all along(but that's an entirely different line of discussion).

One more bit of possibly-connected-to-Seath-lore is Shira from DS3's Ringed City DLC; she is referred to as "The Daughter of the Duke" (which duke is not specified), and her head piece has a pearl from a Man-Eater Shell, which are almost exclusively (but not completely exclusively) found in Seath's crystal cave.

 

[AClassyBunny]

There is basically no hard information on Yorshka, iirc. Like we know she showed up out of nowhere and Gwyndolyn took custody of her, and everything else is just speculation. I don't think it's even explicitly stated that she is half dragon. One of the most mysterious figures in the franchise.

Click to shrink...

Doesn't she have a dragon tail though? It's even scaley if I remember correctly, which is even closer to dragon than th fluffy hug-magnet Priscilla has. She also has the same kind of look as Priscilla, I think.

Gwyn was actually a raging jackass all along

Click to shrink...

99% of the problems in Dark Souls summed up in one sentence. I've noticed most of the shitty thingsin DS1 besides Abyss stuff is either the fault of Gwyn or Seath. At least the big bads in DS3 are almost universally disliked in the world. Kind of hard to trust a big blob of man-eating goop or a dude brutally enslaving a city. Now that I think about it, DS3's world is somehow even grimmer than DS1. The end of the unending cycle of the Flame, as opposed to the beginning of the end.

One more bit of possibly-connected-to-Seath-lore is Shira from DS3's Ringed City DLC; she is referred to as "The Daughter of the Duke" (which duke is not specified), and her head piece has a pearl from a Man-Eater Shell, which are almost exclusively (but not completely exclusively) found in Seath's crystal cave.

Click to shrink...

Had no idea about this. Too busy having grumpy Santa deliver me pain for christmas. Now I have to beat the actual boss before I can get another shot at her. >.>

 

[DualFront]

Doesn't she have a dragon tail though? It's even scaley if I remember correctly, which is even closer to dragon than th fluffy hug-magnet Priscilla has. She also has the same kind of look as Priscilla, I think.

Click to shrink...

This is all true, and there's also a dead Painting Guardian in the same tower as Yorshka. There's certainly a lot of implication going on, but even fewer direct statements than is normal for Dark Souls lore. Not that I'm disagreeing with the notion that she's somehow related to Priscilla and Seath, but we've got next to no information about the nature of that relationship.

I've noticed most of the shitty thingsin DS1 besides Abyss stuff is either the fault of Gwyn or Seath.

Click to shrink...

Either that or the Witch of Izalith's. Even the Abyss stuff may be indirectly Gwyn's fault, given what we learn about the Abyss, the Dark, and the Darksign/Seal of Fire in the Ringed City.

 

[AClassyBunny]

Either that or the Witch of Izalith's.

Click to shrink...

Isn't all the shitty stuff with Izalith because Gwyn decided to invade and attempt genocide on them and their demons? They went freaky as a desperate attempt to fight Gwyn off, right?

Even the Abyss stuff may be indirectly Gwyn's fault, given what we learn about the Abyss, the Dark, and the Darksign/Seal of Fire in the Ringed City.

Click to shrink...

Is this refering to Filianore's slumber perpetulating the age of fire (causing the age of dark to warp)? I don't really remember much from the ringed City beyond Gwyn using it as a glorified prison for Humans and Pygmies.
I've always thought the Abyss was an extremity of humanity's dark nature, not humanity's nature itself. Hollowing is reverting back to their pre-First Flame forms and whatnot.

 

[DualFront]

Isn't all the shitty stuff with Izalith because Gwyn decided to invade and attempt genocide on them and their demons? They went freaky as a desperate attempt to fight Gwyn off, right?

Click to shrink...

More accurate fan translations of Izalith lore suggest that the Witch created the Chaos Flame purposefully and out of ambition (not to prolong or replace the First Flame), and that the transformation of her subjects into Demons was both consensual and Working As Intended from the beginning.

Is this refering to Filianore's slumber perpetulating the age of fire (causing the age of dark to warp)? I don't really remember much from the ringed City beyond Gwyn using it as a glorified prison for Humans and Pygmies.
I've always thought the Abyss was an extremity of humanity's dark nature, not humanity's nature itself. Hollowing is reverting back to their pre-First Flame forms and whatnot.

Click to shrink...

The Ringed City reveals that the Darksign is actually a Seal of Fire created by Gwyn as his "gift" to humanity for helping fight the Dragons, and it was designed to cut Humanity off from their own Darkness so they could never be a threat to the gods. The unintended consequence was that the Dark became trapped in human bodies, accumulating over time until it violently escapes the Seal, as seen with the Pus of Man enemies in DS3 (the hollows that turn into giant sludge monsters), and why DS3 lore makes constant references to flaying and bloodletting undead to drain the Dark from their bodies. Oolacile and New Londo are the same phenomena on larger a scale, caused by extremely large concentrations of the Dark Soul in one or a few individuals, and the Chaos Flame is likely a similar phenomena as expressed through the Witch's Lord Soul instead of the Dark Soul. Before the Seal of Fire (during the Dragon War), the Abyss was safe enough (at least for humans) that they could forge their weapons and armor within it, a process which can take weeks or months for each individual piece assuming real-life forging techniques.

This event is also the First Sin referred to by Aldia's title "The Scholar of the First Sin" ("Once, the Lord of Light banished Dark, and all that stemmed from Humanity. AND MEN ASSUMED A FLEETING FORM.")

TL;DR: Gwyn created the Darksign, and the Darksign caused the Dark and the Abyss to become violent instead of restive, thereby ruining everything.

 

[AClassyBunny]

TL;DR: Gwyn created the Darksign, and the Darksign caused the Dark and the Abyss to become violent instead of restive, thereby ruining everything.

Click to shrink...

Basically, Gwyn's attempts to prolong his age caused it to crumble even more violently. He hated and feared humanity so much that he doomed his own world.
Ironic that what's left of the ancient dragons managed to adapt to the new reality when the gods that ushered it in failed to do so themselves.

 

[wetodet]

...Except that the concept of hollowing as being a result of too much Dark goes against what we see in the first game, where that rather clearly made the bloatheads from the Artorias DLC, not hollows, and Kaathe, upon granting you the Dark Hand - which allows one to steal the Dark from others for themselves - tells you, in as many words, that it will aid you to stave off hollowing, which makes no sense under the DkS3 assertion that hollowing is caused by excess Dark.

 

[DualFront]

...Except that the concept of hollowing as being a result of too much Dark goes against what we see in the first game, where that rather clearly made the bloatheads from the Artorias DLC, not hollows, and Kaathe, upon granting you the Dark Hand - which allows one to steal the Dark from others for themselves - tells you, in as many words, that it will aid you to stave off hollowing, which makes no sense under the DkS3 assertion that hollowing is caused by excess Dark.

Click to shrink...

Considering that DS3 is inconsistent with itself on the subject of hollowing, this shouldn't come as a surprise.

 

[wetodet]

Also, the idea of hollowing being the high-Dark state doesn't mesh with DkS1 mechanically, either - bonuses from having 'liquid' Humanity [i.e. Humanity in the counter next to the health bar] only apply while in the 'human' state, not while hollowed, a feature which was retained in Remastered despite its being released after 3 and its assertion of hollowing originating from excess Dark, as was Kaathe's line about the Dark Hand.

 

[AClassyBunny]

Not particularly a lore thing, but kinda relevant to the Dark and Abyss:
Manus and Kalameet are meant to be the hardest bosses in DS1, right? Because I just beat them both on my second attempt.
An I actually good at this game? No, that's impossible, it must've been dumb luck.

 

[Delirium]

This thread is of interest to me.

More accurate fan translations of Izalith lore suggest that the Witch created the Chaos Flame purposefully and out of ambition (not to prolong or replace the First Flame), and that the transformation of her subjects into Demons was both consensual and Working As Intended from the beginning.

Click to shrink...

I'm not a huge fan of a lot of Hawkshaw's version of the lore because it often feels like he finds one bit of evidence and then spins it into a whole story mentioned exactly nowhere else. The evidence is extremely thin on the ground that anyone was enjoying their time in Izalith after the birth of the Chaos Flame but he sort of glosses over all the evidence contrary to his opinion while he's explaining it. Like he'll often say one thing and then move on to another topic that indirectly contradicts what he just said without mentioning it. It makes sense for him to do this in the context of trying to prove his personal theories in a court of public opinion but the way he presents it feels extremely manipulative to me for that reason. Maybe it's just a matter of two fairly deep headcanon's clashing but I struggle to recommend him to people on that basis.

For example his evidence that the whole demon thing is consensual is almost laughable and amounts to 'well only half the children turned into deformed, murderous beasts, look there's this one who's normal! Please ignore the literal infestation of soul devouring bugs going on and the city engulfing (but not that kind of engulfing, it's an emotional engulfing!) lava coming your way.' Izalith is a burnt out husk of a city, every character we ever speak to tells us how bad it is and how everything went wrong, the item descriptions say it, the visual language of the creatures say it, but the secret story is that actually the demons were totally misunderstood the whole time? It's a no from me.

 

[AClassyBunny]

For example his evidence that the whole demon thing is consensual is almost laughable and amounts to 'well only half the children turned into deformed, murderous beasts, look there's this one who's normal! Please ignore the literal infestation of soul devouring bugs going on and the city engulfing (but not that kind of engulfing, it's an emotional engulfing!) lava coming your way.' Izalith is a burnt out husk of a city, every character we ever speak to tells us how bad it is and how everything went wrong, the item descriptions say it, the visual language of the creatures say it, but the secret story is that actually the demons were totally misunderstood the whole time? It's a no from me.

Click to shrink...

This is what I was refering to when I said they went freaky.

The way I understand it from what I've seen, read and watched, the attempt to create a new Flame went wrong and everyone became horrible abominations. That said, the demons clearly aren't entirely horrible existances. The brother still clearly loves his sisters going by his reaction to you desicrating his sister's grave. The way Quelaag almost gently strokes her spider half gives the impression they share a symbiotic relationship instead of a parasitic one (although it could also be taken as just "have the sexy lady make sexy movements"). The Fair Lady clearly cares dearly for her demon offspring to the point of suffering extreme agony for them on top of her already painful existance. There's also Grana and Kirk, who can live amoung the demons safely. The Caprah demon even shows they're capable of taming normal animals as pets or companions.
Even the Chaos Bug noming on Solaire's brain could be considered reasonable. They're only found in that one spot from what I've seen, meaning Solaire is very likely intruding on their nest. His madness is even a blissful one, he finally found the sun he could never do otherwise.

I've always imagined the city went to shit after they were turned to demons, not because of it. Just because Izalith's lfe is warped, semi-parasitic life, it's still life. And life always adapts, no matter the situation.
As Vaati put it in his revised Prepare to Cry: This is not a place ruined by Chaos, it is a place defined by it.


This is why I made this thread though: discussion of differing opinions. Both helps provide other possible truths and lets you reinforce your own beliefs through debate. We learn either way.

 

[Daniel Estacado]

The Witch of Izalith's attempt at creating a new flame succeeded, there is a trope on TV Tropes called Gone Horribly Right, and it fits the situation.

 

[AClassyBunny]

Gone Horribly Right

Click to shrink...

That's it, that's the zone's lore in a nutshell.
In fact, that's kinda what every success in Dark Souls is...

 

[Roland-Hur]

Have you heard of our lord and saviour, VaatiVidya?

Click to shrink...

I know that VaatiVidya is the most well known among the Dark Souls community for his lore analysis and with good reason, but I personally think that Jerks Sans Frontieres has one of the most well put together videos on Dark Souls III and deserves a little recognition for that.



Just a few things to keep in mind that this video made before the release of The Ringed City, so a few things may be wrong or incorrect. Still well worth watching.