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Tau and Covenant switch places. Who does better?

Rhymehouse

Rhymehouse

The Tau are brought to the Halo Galaxy one year before the Human-Covenant War. The Covenant are brought to the 40k Milky Way two years before the Damocles Gulf Crusade. Both sides retain all of their assets and territories.

How do the Tau deal with the UNSC and the Flood? How do the Covenant deal with the Imperium and Tyranids and Orks and other 40k factions. Assume the Covenant are ignored by Chaos like the Tau are.
 
Halo vs WH40K is inevitably a loss for the Halo factions involved. The Forerunners and Precursors being the possible exception. 40K has more and bigger ships, more OP weapons, faster FTL...
 
Sandy River DL said:
Halo vs WH40K is inevitably a loss for the Halo factions involved. The Forerunners and Precursors being the possible exception. 40K has more and bigger ships, more OP weapons, faster FTL...
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  1. This is not a fight. This a switcheroo crossover between two factions.
  2. Excluding the Eldar and the Webway. I am not convinced that the FTL travel in 40k is faster than it is in Halo. 40k FTL is slow compared to many other sci-fi universes and is also very unreliable and potentially dangerous if warp FTL is used.
  3. The Tau are much smaller than the Covenant. They only have around 100 planets while the Covenant at their peak controlled thousands of solar systems.
 
Hm, not really sure how the Tau would react.

They'd probably recognize that the UNSC is not the Imperium (not enough skulls scattered about), but the fact that they're still dealing with humans would be a concern. They'd either jump straight to the violence in the assumption that these are humans like from their old universe, or try to play it slow and kind of diplomatically as they try to figure out what the hell is going on. Some of the Ethereals did want to exterminate humanity due to their warp presence, but the Warp doesn't really exist in Halo. Of course, it might take them awhile to even realize that...

They'll probably try to get the UEG to join them, maybe allying with/recruiting Insurrectionists if they can, since the Tau do occasionally like to play that divide and conquer game. Or they just actually attempt diplomacy, they have an entire caste largely dedicated to that task, after all.

There's even a chance they'll start with violence against the UEG, before calling a cease-fire due to realizing just how much of a case of mistaken identity that they're dealing with.

It'll be interesting seeing them attempting to recruit humans and then realizing that humans can interact with all these old super structures scattered through space that are actually competitive with the tech from their original universe, since they would have to rely on humans to interface with that technology unless they can reverse engineer it. If they find out about the rings, I can see some of the higher up Tau maybe deciding that trying to send them back to their home universe to wipe out the Warp/Chaos would be a good idea.

The Tau probably deal with the Flood better than the Covenant, because they won't have religious fanaticism blinding them to the dangers, and probably have experience dealing with things like Nurglites and Tyranids, which, while not direct analogues to the Flood, do kind of provide a baseline for how to deal with early stages of Flood infestation, and they might be able to contain it enough that it never develops into the scarier stages.

The Covenant are a bit more screwed, though. Ironically, they might be considered less offensive to the Imperium than the Tau, since the Covenant would just try to exterminate humans rather than recruit them. Much less of a sin, to humanity's eyes, I imagine. I'm... not sure if the Prophets would stop trying to claim that all humans are heretics if they realize that there are no Forerunner artifacts in this universe.

Regardless, like most factions interacting with either the Covenant or the Imperium, it probably ends in bloodshed.
 
Rhymehouse said:
  1. This is not a fight. This a switcheroo crossover between two factions.
  2. Excluding the Eldar and the Webway. I am not convinced that the FTL travel in 40k is faster than it is in Halo. 40k FTL is slow compared to many other sci-fi universes and is also very unreliable and potentially dangerous if warp FTL is used.
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The first issue would be that both the Tau and the Covenant are expansionist assholes, so there would be fighting ... except the Covenant would be getting their heads kicked in against any major 40K faction, and the Tau would be kicking down the UNSC's doors effortlessly (and not getting their heads kicked in by a few dozen supersoldiers).

The second ... really depends on who you're talking about and which sources you're allowed to use. More to the point, however, how much faster or slower it is than "many other sci-fi universes" is utterly irrelevant; only the speed compared to the Covenant and UNSC is worth considering.
 
Well, y'know, anyone who played the games on Legendary (which I presume as canon) knows how Jackals can be an absolute dogshit pain in the ass. Now all the aliens are Jackals! And they have Jackal robots and Jackal tanks!

Also the game still has Elites and Brutes, except they're now even taller and have a long stick to hit you with. So really energy sword or melee or even shotgun are basically non-viable.
 
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Mak Taru said:
What about the Necron FTL drive?
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Necrons use the webway also. It is just more limited because they have to smash through the Webway before it closes off again to get from place to place.
Entropy Judge said:
The first issue would be that both the Tau and the Covenant are expansionist assholes, so there would be fighting ... except the Covenant would be getting their heads kicked in against any major 40K faction, and the Tau would be kicking down the UNSC's doors effortlessly (and not getting their heads kicked in by a few dozen supersoldiers).

The second ... really depends on who you're talking about and which sources you're allowed to use. More to the point, however, how much faster or slower it is than "many other sci-fi universes" is utterly irrelevant; only the speed compared to the Covenant and UNSC is worth considering.
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Tau and Covenant are similar in a lot of ways. They are both low-interstellar theocratic empires made of several alien species. A key difference is that the Tau try diplomacy and religious conversion with every faction while the Covenant just invade and colonize or even exterminate entire species if they committed religious heresy. That means the Covenant will initially handle the Orks and Tyranids and Necrons and Dark Eldar way better than the Tau did but the Covenant will probably be on the receiving end of many curbstomp battles when they antagonize the Imperium. Still, I think they will survive as a faction but be weakened by alien and human attacks. As for the Tau vs UNSC conflict, assuming they even fight instead of the Tau trying diplomacy and indoctrination, the Tau should be a lot stronger than the UNSC in ground battles but I'm not sure how dominant they would be in space battles. There is also no telling how the Tau would handle a Flood outbreak that can potentially spell the doom for them beyond Flood/Tyranid comparisons.

As for the FTL travel speed. I am not an expert on either faction. All I know is that the Imperium of Man's FTL travel speed isn't the greatest and the Tau's travel speed is noted to be five times slower than the Imperium's travel speed.

I forgot to mention. The transplanted Tau are the current 42nd millennium version. The transplanted Covenant are from their height (probably early Halo 2 era).

Edit: I did some browsing on Spacebattles. According to the highest estimates by various users there. IOM's FTL Travel speed is 100,000c (cross the Milky Way Galaxy in a year) which makes the Tau's FTL speed 20,000c. The Covenant could travel up to 900 light years a day which is 328,725c. The UNSC seem to have a travel speed of 3 light years a day which is 1096c. So the UNSC is way slower than the Tau travel-wise is while the Covenant should be way faster than the Imperium, Orks, and Tyranids.
 
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You know, a thought just occurred to me.

In the hypothetical situation that the Covenant and the Imperium work together...

Can you imagine what them attempting to tech share would look like?

Two factions with contradictory religious dogma-ridden technology, both frequently stay insular and secretive, trying to work together?

Of course, if Covenant technology responds to 40K humans the same way that it does to Halo humans, I can see the techpriests being extremely smug about the favor of the Omnissiah, to the Covenant's dismay.
 
Rhymehouse said:
That means the Covenant will initially handle the Orks and Tyranids and Necrons and Dark Eldar way better than the Tau did
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That's an incredibly low bar, because the Tau initially handled them by dying horribly. They still, AFAIK, die horribly against the Necrons and the Dark Eldar.

And, yes, the Tau do try diplomacy first, but they're both impatient and supremacist - humans are not the equal of Tau, and they're quite willing to conduct orbital bombardment to make their point. As for space combat ... okay, so the UNSC ODPs fire a 3,000 ton projectile at either 4% or 40% of lightspeed; the ship-mounted versions are substantially weaker. Imperium of Man broadside weapons fire 1,000 ton projectiles at something like 5600 kilometers per second, for about 3.7 gigatons per barrel. But, again, broadside weapons, with up to twelve barrels per battery, and multiple batteries per side on some ships .... Now, the Tau aren't the IoM's equals in ship design (their best purpose-built warship is 'only' about as good as a Lunar-class Cruiser, IIRC), but they aren't instantly deleted when going up against them, either. Now, yes, you can argue lower yields based on various statements and observations in other books, but you can also get higher yields. Which is right? Yes, yes is right.

FTL travel also depends on what source you're using; for example:
Imperial Guard 2nd Edition Codex said:
... Ten thousand light years can be traversed within 10-40 days by warp-capable spacecraft....
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Rogue Trader: Slaves of Darkness said:
... The warp is also an important factor in the surivvla of the human race. spacecraft, capable of voyaging thousands of light years in a matter of days, travel across the warp.
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Adeptus Titanicus said:
... By doing so [warp drive], a spacecraft can move hundreds of thousands of light years in only a few hours.
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Other statements and travel times require the IoM to have speeds in at least the 90,000c - 140,000c range for 'average' speeds. And at least some Tau ships have improved Warp engines:
Some Tau Ship Name I Can't Remember said:
... Its reactors were a fraction of the size of the Explorer's power plant but were capable of reaching a third of average warp speed, essential to bind together the emergent Tau empire.
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Rhymehouse said:
You are talking about the Oldcrons before they got retconned. The new Necrons use Dolmen Gates.
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The inertialess drive still exists, it's just not the only (and perhaps not the standard) method for Necrons to get around anymore.
 
Sir Bill said:
You know, a thought just occurred to me.

In the hypothetical situation that the Covenant and the Imperium work together...

Can you imagine what them attempting to tech share would look like?

Two factions with contradictory religious dogma-ridden technology, both frequently stay insular and secretive, trying to work together?

Of course, if Covenant technology responds to 40K humans the same way that it does to Halo humans, I can see the techpriests being extremely smug about the favor of the Omnissiah, to the Covenant's dismay.
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The very idea of the Covenant and Imperium working together sounds ridiculous; even in the face of greater and more genocidal foes like the Tyranids or Chaos! It is literally the doctrine of both of their religions to annihilate the other side. The Imperium will honestly have an easier time trying to team up with the Orks than the Covenant.

If they were mind controlled to help each other, then in like most 40k crossovers the Imperium gains faster and more reliable FTL travel. The Imperium also gains some Forerunner technology I guess. The Covenant on the other hand gains better small arms, way better land vehicles, and larger spaceships. Covenant won't be able to access the warp at all however.
 
Since I doubt the Tau are going to seem as immediate an existential threat to the UNSC as the Covenant were (though they doubtless will be in the long term), I wonder if the insurrection that the UNSC originally created the Spartan program for will actually kick off in earnest without the unifying threat of extinction.
 
Rhymehouse said:
The very idea of the Covenant and Imperium working together sounds ridiculous; even in the face of greater and more genocidal foes like the Tyranids or Chaos! It is literally the doctrine of both of their religions to annihilate the other side. The Imperium will honestly have an easier time trying to team up with the Orks than the Covenant.
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"Wait, you guys want to kill all humans? Wow, well we want to kill everyone who isn't human!"

"Holy shit, small world! Hey, you guys wouldn't happen to be religious fanatics would you? With the skulls and stuff?"

"How did you know? Are we just, like, totally in sync or what?"

"Yeah, it feels like we really vibe, y'know? Like, just click together."

*BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG*
 
I think there's an important factor not being touched upon here: the religious crisis the Covenant faces when they realize they're not in the same universe anymore. The Great Rings are gone. The entire purpose and goal of their civilization is now impossible. They can't get to heaven anymore.
 
Rhymehouse said:
Necrons use the webway also. It is just more limited because they have to smash through the Webway before it closes off again to get from place to place.

Tau and Covenant are similar in a lot of ways. They are both low-interstellar theocratic empires made of several alien species. A key difference is that the Tau try diplomacy and religious conversion with every faction while the Covenant just invade and colonize or even exterminate entire species if they committed religious heresy. That means the Covenant will initially handle the Orks and Tyranids and Necrons and Dark Eldar way better than the Tau did but the Covenant will probably be on the receiving end of many curbstomp battles when they antagonize the Imperium. Still, I think they will survive as a faction but be weakened by alien and human attacks. As for the Tau vs UNSC conflict, assuming they even fight instead of the Tau trying diplomacy and indoctrination, the Tau should be a lot stronger than the UNSC in ground battles but I'm not sure how dominant they would be in space battles. There is also no telling how the Tau would handle a Flood outbreak that can potentially spell the doom for them beyond Flood/Tyranid comparisons.

As for the FTL travel speed. I am not an expert on either faction. All I know is that the Imperium of Man's FTL travel speed isn't the greatest and the Tau's travel speed is noted to be five times slower than the Imperium's travel speed.

I forgot to mention. The transplanted Tau are the current 42nd millennium version. The transplanted Covenant are from their height (probably early Halo 2 era).

Edit: I did some browsing on Spacebattles. According to the highest estimates by various users there. IOM's FTL Travel speed is 100,000c (cross the Milky Way Galaxy in a year) which makes the Tau's FTL speed 20,000c. The Covenant could travel up to 900 light years a day which is 328,725c. The UNSC seem to have a travel speed of 3 light years a day which is 1096c. So the UNSC is way slower than the Tau travel-wise is while the Covenant should be way faster than the Imperium, Orks, and Tyranids.
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Tau should do pretty well. They have the advantage of being able to integrate humans from the UNSC and help the Insurrectionists against the UNSC. Since unlike the Covenant it will be harder for the humans to have a rally moment since the Tau aren't genocidal like the Covies are. Also why do you think the Tau are a theocracy? They don't seem to have a religion they force people to join, the greater good is a philosophy to make everyone join up, it's like saying the Soviet Union was a theocracy. It doesen't make sense.
 
I'm several editions out of date on the Tau but iirc they're kind of like the British Empire in how they behave/expand (complete with class caste system! Though a lot less capitalistic obvs). I can see UNSC relations being frosty but not all-out religious extermination war levels. The Halo rings might get investigated/prodded by them in the 'is this weird alien megastructure how we got here?' sense, dunno if that would wake the Flood up though.

What did activate/release the Flood in Halo 1? I can't remember.
 
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Guessmyname said:
I'm several editions out of date on the Tau but iirc they're kind of like the British Empire in how they behave/expand (complete with class caste system! Though a lot less capitalistic obvs). I can see UNSC relations being frosty but all-out religious extermination war levels. The Halo rings might get investigated/prodded by them in the 'is this weird alien megastructure how we got here?' sense, dunno if that would wake the Flood up though.
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They'd probably be constantly trying to flip border planets to join them by supporting independence movements, TBH. It'd lead to tensions which might boil over into conflict but it'd never rise to genocide. That said, they do seem to be fairly authoritarian in the newer editions and give people mood-stabilizing drugs.

What did activate/release the Flood in Halo 1? I can't remember.
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IIRC, the Covenant exploring the ring and opening doors.
 
prometheus110 said:
They'd probably be constantly trying to flip border planets to join them by supporting independence movements, TBH. It'd lead to tensions which might boil over into conflict but it'd never rise to genocide. That said, they do seem to be fairly authoritarian in the newer editions and give people mood-stabilizing drugs.
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Yeah there was a 'not' missing in my post, sorry about that =_=
IIRC weren't the Tau actually fairly idealistic at first before ramming face first into the rest of the 40K galaxy? The Damocles Gulf crusade was the Imperium's first attempt at wiping them out, wasn't it?

prometheus110 said:
IIRC, the Covenant exploring the ring and opening doors.
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Huh, if it was that simple then yeah the Tau would probably release them by accident as well.

Where that gets interesting is that, in the absence of a genocidal war, there's no real reason for anyone from the UNSC to be there on Halo at the same time (and, similarly, no reason for the Tau to realise the humans are the Forerunners). I wonder what that would look like from an outside perspective.
 
prometheus110 said:
They'd probably be constantly trying to flip border planets to join them by supporting independence movements, TBH. It'd lead to tensions which might boil over into conflict but it'd never rise to genocide. That said, they do seem to be fairly authoritarian in the newer editions and give people mood-stabilizing drugs.


IIRC, the Covenant exploring the ring and opening doors.
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The Tau's authoritarianism has been there from day one. Ignoring the more recent blatant grimdarkening of them, they're still bastard colonizers with an undemocratic caste system intent on making "lesser societies" bend the knee in the name of The Greater Good. It's just that, in the greater context of 40k, merely being bastard colonizers is a good deal less terrible than anyone else.

But outside that context, they're hardly good guys. Yes they're willing to engage in diplomacy, but it's hardly in good faith. The Tau don't offer an equal partnership to their "helpers", they offer subservience to the Tau.
 
But they can be negotiated with. I think you'd end up with a Human-Tau Cold War. Humans trying to steal Tau tech, Tau encouraging UNSC worlds to join them. They'll demonstrate effectiveness of their tech against Insurrectionists who resist at first. So the Humans are the Soviets and the Tau are the USA. The Tau are much more likely to recognise the danger of the Halo array and destroy them (for them to be able to prove effective at 40K levels they should have ship-mounted weaponry capable of destroying Halos, since 1 fusion explosion was sufficient to destroy any single Halo).
 
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Brainarius said:
But they can be negotiated with. I think you'd end up with a Human-Tau Cold War. Humans trying to steal Tau tech, Tau encouraging UNSC worlds to join them. They'll demonstrate effectiveness of their tech against Insurrectionists who resist at first. So the Humans are the Soviets and the Tau are the USA. The Tau are much more likely to recognise the danger of the Halo array and destroy them (If they play in 40K levels they should have ship-mounted weaponry capable of destroying Halos, since 1 fusion explosion was sufficient to destroy any single Halo.
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Why would they use their technology on insurrectionists who want to leave the UNSC and would like support and not on the aggressively expansionistic humans who'd be the most likely to trigger a border conflict?
 
prometheus110 said:
Why would they use their technology on insurrectionists who want to leave the UNSC and would like support and not on the aggressively expansionistic humans?
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Insurrectionists who want to be independent and fire on the Tau first will be made an example of. Some of them have also taken to space piracy to support themselves. And how are the UNSC particularly expansionist? They never gave me that impression in the books. Just rather authoritarian which for a species from WH40K will be considered perfectly normal governance.
 
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Brainarius said:
Insurrectionists who want to be independent and fire on the Tau first will be made an example of. Some of them have also taken to space piracy to support themselves. And how are the UNSC particularly expansionist? They never gave me that impression in the books. Just rather authoritarian which for a species from WH40K will be considered perfectly normal governance.
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Why would they fire on the Tau? You've basically gone "the Tau will shoot back at people who shoot them" and, like, yeah they would, but why would the Insurrectionists shoot the Tau in the first place? An isolated incident of pirates doing something dumb is possible, sure, but it's unlikely to even be seen by the UNSC, let along matter in the long term or impact the Tau view of Insurrectionists.

Far more likely is that the UNSC won't appreciate the Tau trading with restive border worlds and demand that they stop since it's bolstering insurrectionist efforts. That could easily brew up into a limited conflict since the UNSC would likely use force to stop Tau traders from landing if the Tau refused to agree (which, given their typical approach, they wouldn't) and the Tau would then escalate. The insurrectionist movement really doesn't matter here except as something the Tau can use to break up and absorb the UNSC one planet at a time.


The UNSC aren't, like, a super expansionistic empire or anything, but they colonized way too many worlds to easily control and that would backfire in this situation.
 
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