Speak of the Devil [Cross Post](Vertigo/PMMM Rebellion)

Heh

But narratively, having an epilogue deal with a character who died earlier interact with the Grim Reaper has a long tradition behind it. It's a completely legit narrative move.
Except in this instance, it doesn't. Like Ugolino said having us go from heavy emotional stuff to suddenly everything is fine BACK to heavy emotional stuff just janks the average reader around unnecessarily.

I think at this point, Aranfan, we're just running in circles. We who think its fine as it is have valid reasons for thinking its fine as it is. The ones who think that the last two chappies need to be swapped think that. We're not going to come to a conclusion or convert anyone at this point...especially when it seems like you're the only one on this forum going for the swap. Let's all drop this and talk about other things in the story, chyea?
 
I continue to disagree that it would "jank the average reader around", but fair enough. We aren't going to convince each other, and it's up to Winged Knight.

But what else is there really to discuss?
 
I continue to disagree that it would "jank the average reader around", but fair enough. We aren't going to convince each other, and it's up to Winged Knight.

But what else is there really to discuss?
The story as a cohesive whole, parts that stood out as really good, things the author could do better for the next story, chit chat about what the author might have planned for their next project, what was in the briefcase at the end of Pulp Fiction, and the meaning of life.

You know, the typical stuff.
 
I'm going to put my vote into the "the order works as it stands, and reversing the chapters would be counter-productive" camp.

The only thing I can vaguely think of improving it would be some sort of reference to how Madoka is returning to Homura at the end, and that only if it can be worked in in some natural fashion.

On the commentary level, I wonder if Lucy realizes the degree to which he and Homura are alike in having a towering degree of self-absorption and an unwillingness to be helped by anyone else. Admittedly, the causes are different (pride in his case, self-hate in hers) but there's enough resemblance that he might have noticed it.
 
I certainly wouldn't mind reading everyone's opinion on the story in general. What did you like? What didn't you like? This might just be the most popular piece of fan fiction I've ever written, especially considering it's grown to comparable size to my Fate/Stay Night story in just a few months while I've been writing that one for about two years. I'd love to know people's overall thoughts on this rambling tale of mine.

On the commentary level, I wonder if Lucy realizes the degree to which he and Homura are alike in having a towering degree of self-absorption and an unwillingness to be helped by anyone else. Admittedly, the causes are different (pride in his case, self-hate in hers) but there's enough resemblance that he might have noticed it.

That's one of the big reasons Lucifer was so offended by her, actually. They have some similarities, but ultimately Homura hated herself and felt guilty for her actions. Lucifer has never felt guilty for anything. Guilt taints and limits the strength of a person's will, and that's pretty much the entirety of what Lucifer is. So for her to have these similarities, and to compare herself to him, was something he took as an insult.
 
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In the non-story posts you touched on what the other Endless were up to and why they weren't showing up. I don't recall any mention of Desire or Destiny, though. I can understand Destiny's absence due to his non-interventionist stance, but where's Desire?

Also, major, major kudos for this piece. It's one of the most satisfying things I've read in a while.
 
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In the non-story posts you touched on what the other Endless were up to and why they weren't showing up. I don't recall any mention of Desire or Destiny, though. I can understand Destiny's absence due to his non-interventionist stance, but where's Desire?

Also, major, major kudos for this piece. It's one of the most satisfying things I've read in a while.

Before you is a woman of indescribable beauty, but as you turn your head you see that perhaps she is instead a man. You cannot tell, for the person's features are so wondrous and perfect that they encompass and transcend all genders. Mere human labels fall short of what this person represents. All that you know is that you have never wanted anything as much as you want the being before you, dressed immaculately in a white business suit that teased the senses with what it hid, while at the same time promising everything.

Desire smiles at you, its teeth immaculately white and straight, and you feel your heart clench.

"Why, for what reason would I ever get involved?" Desire asks, lazily smoking a cigarette and blowing the smoke in the air. The haze bends the light in just the right manner to give Desire's already impossible beauty an ethereal glow. "That whole universe has already been so sculpted by a million different little creatures indulging in their wants. That Homura girl, especially."

Desire lounges back on a couch that had not been there before, one arm hanging lazily behind while the other hand held its cigarette in just the perfect way. Because everything about Desire is perfect, even the smallest of its motions. That is what it meant to be the embodiment of need.

"No, I stayed behind in the temple that is myself and watched from afar. It was incredibly amusing, I must say. I'd written the place off as a lost cause and urged my siblings to just enjoy the view from a distance, but they simply had to get involved." Desire shrugs, wafting the smoke around itself like a curtain. "Ah, well. I suppose it all turned out for the best anyway, after a fashion. It's ever so much drearier now that things are back on the straight and narrow, but I guess that's better than complete dissolution. I hope that answers your question, little mortal."

Desire smiles again, giving you a wink before blowing you a little kiss.

"Ta ta. I'll be seeing you soon."
 
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Soooooo...I'd like to say that something funny happened on my way to review these new chapters, but the simple truth is that I've been busy and I'm also a procrastinator so I really don't have any good excuses to offer. With that said, hopefully better late than never, so I'll get started with the criticisms and then move on from there.

"I'm concerned as well," Mami said. She pulled Nagisa up into a hug, and the little kid squeaked in surprise. Mami held the little girl close, burying her face in Nagisa's hair. "You've brought so much joy into my life, and I don't want to think about what might happen if you're not there once all this is over."

Something about the way this is worded struck me as off the first time I read it. This is only a minor nitpick and it flows better the second time, but I feel as though Mami (as hypocritical as it may be) should have said something about Nagisa's age and how it isn't safe for her to be there or what not.

I hesitated a moment, but nodded in acceptance. He was right, though I did not like that he was suffering so. But even still, how could I get past the dancers? There were too many, and no matter how I moved they followed and barred my path.

My shoulders slumped, and I was about to fall to my hands and knees when someone else came up softly behind me. It was another paper figure, but this one looked like me. She laid a gentle hand on my shoulder, and her painted lips were upturned in a quiet smile.

I think a slightly longer description (maybe another sentence or two?) of Madoka's efforts to get past the Clara Dolls might be called for here. The shift to her nearly falling to her hands and knees seems a bit sudden, and Madoka is not the type of person to give up on something easily.

"It's okay," I said. "Whatever it is, it doesn't matter. Everything will be all right?"

Shouldn't that last sentence end with an exclamation mark rather than a question mark?

Madoka's chapter also felt slightly perfunctory to me in terms of the flow from one action and development to the next, though that might be because I'd read the draft and knew what to expect. If you have the time and inclination, you might want to take a second look at the chapter and see if there are any places where you can liven up and strengthen the metaphorical connective tissues between paragraphs and scenes, but overall the chapter holds together coherently enough and (as I stated above) I suspect my perspective is skewed here.

Anyway, those are pretty much my only criticisms of note. I have my own opinions concerning Homura's motivations and reasoning that don't necessarily match what you presented here, but I can understand your own perspective and if I let alternative character interpretations get in the way of enjoying a good story virtually the only fan fics I'd like would be my own...and that would be terrible since I'm such a slow writer.

Focusing on the many positives, Kyoko's chapter was excellent. You wrote her POV with so much energy and gusto I'm surprised that there seems to have been a genuine possibility her narrative wouldn't have been featured in the story. That would have been a loss, in my opinion, as your depiction of Kyoko was so compelling and genuinely fun to read it nearly overshadowed Madoka in the climax.

Madoka's journey through the darkness with Lucifer was the highlight of her own chapter, and I like how you altered the scene with the Clara Dolls. Having them dance around Madoka was a clever reference to their Nutcracker Suite theme and a neat callback to Homura dancing at the start of the story.

Homura's concluding installment was very well written (possibly one of the best written installments in the story), and offered many thoughtful insights. Your take on Death was interesting and fits with what little exposure I've had to the character, and her placing Homura's hand in Madoka's was a truly heartwarming moment (and possibly necessary too, considering Homura had mucked things up badly enough that her soul might have been outside the Law of Cycles). As a piece of advice, though, I'd recommend putting Homura's installment with Madoka's in the archived version because it feels too short to be a chapter on its own.

And then there's the epilogue. I see there's been some discussion about chapter order, and I personally agree with GoukaRyuu, Ardion, and the others who feel that Lucifer and Madoka's meeting makes a satisfying bookend to the story. Putting this before Homura's meeting with Death would have had me scratching my head wondering why Madoka seems so calm and composed despite Homura's apparent demise.

Moreover, it offers an enjoyable resolution. Almost since I read the first chapter, I had wondered what Lucifer's role in this story would be: a mere catalyst who comes and goes without any changes to himself, or would he gain something from this experience? He's still the same person at the end as he was in the beginning, but I feel as though he's richer because of what he went through and the people he met. So, well done on your part in managing to portray this while keeping Lucifer true to himself.

And that's that, I suppose. Thanks for seeing this idea through to its conclusion and sharing the results with all of us. I very much enjoyed reading this and plan on adding it to my favorites over at Fanfiction.net.
 

Once again you give me a fantastic review! Seriously, you really do give me some of the best food for thought.

These are decent criticisms, and I'll be sure to keep them in mind when I'm touching up the chapters before putting them on FF.net. I appreciate you pointing out any issues. It helps make the work as a whole even better.

I'm happy you enjoyed Kyouko's chapter. It was interesting to use her because while she's just as much in the dark as almost anyone in that scene, she's also really brash and tends to cover up her anxiety with bravado. So playing with that kind of personality was fun. And, you know, that moment of stark terror when she realizes Lucifer is actually, you know, Lucifer. That's a bit of a shock.

I enjoyed writing Madoka's segment. It really allowed me to get into the meat of the universe collapsing. And, you know, demonstrate just how much power Homura was holding back. A lot of this mayhem was her acting unconsciously, after all. If she and Lucifer had really gotten fully into their fight, it would have been pretty bad news for the planet. Not to mention, of course, all the issues that arose when Homura stopped focussing on ensuring the universe kept running. When you're making a conscious effort to ensure the gears don't grind, it's bad to take your eyes off them.

I like that you caught on that Death placed Homura's hand in Madoka's. You hit the nail on the head there, because as it was Homura was indeed beyond Madaka's reach at that point. Death did say she was there to help, after all. I think that might have been my favorite chapter to write. Because we've seen all the highs and lows, and we know that Homura's life has been horrible and she's done some pretty awful things. But Death isn't about judgement. She's about things ending, moving on from one major aspect of existence to the next. So Homura doesn't need to fight any more, doesn't need to suffer or hate herself. That's finished, and she can finally rest.

I myself wonder if Lucifer really grew by the end of this story, or if perhaps he merely just became more clearly focussed about what he already was. If that makes any sense. Lucifer is a hard character to write well. He's arrogant and prideful, so you'd think he'd never help anyone. But it's because of that arrogance that he can't stand being in someone's debt, so he'll go through great pains to ensure all things are in balance. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. He's very complex and multifaceted.

So again, I'm not sure if the Morningstar had actual growth by the end of the story, or if what he is just became more clear. What do you all think? The Lightbringer changed the world around him, but was he himself changed at all? What did you think of his interactions with the rest of the cast? Was he true to the character Mike Carey wrote so well? I'm curious as to if I handled the character properly, as well as how capably he mixed with the overall themes and setting of Madoka Magica.
 
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I myself wonder if Lucifer really grew at the end of this story, or if perhaps he merely just became more clearly focussed about what he already was. If that makes any sense. Lucifer is a hard character to write well. He's arrogant and prideful, so you'd think he'd never help anyone. But it's because of that arrogance that he can't stand being in someone's debt, so he'll go through great pains to ensure all things are in balance. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. He's very complex and multifaceted.

So again, I'm not sure if the Morningstar had actual growth by the end of the story, or if what he is just became more clear. What do you all think? The Lightbringer changed the world around him, but was he himself changed at all? What did you think of his interactions with the rest of the cast? Was he true to the character Mike Carey wrote so well? I'm curious as to if I handled the character properly, as well as how capably he mixed with the overall themes and setting of Madoka Magica.

If anything I would point to his interaction with Nagisa and at the end with Madoka. He may realize that what he quests for is impossible, even if he would be too proud to ever admit it, but he might become more accepting of the "journey being more important than the destination" type of advice Nagisa gave him. I think he did grow a little in this story.
 
So again, I'm not sure if the Morningstar had actual growth by the end of the story, or if what he is just became more clear. What do you all think? The Lightbringer changed the world around him, but was he himself changed at all? What did you think of his interactions with the rest of the cast? Was he true to the character Mike Carey wrote so well? I'm curious as to if I handled the character properly, as well as how capably he mixed with the overall themes and setting of Madoka Magica.

Sadly Mornigstar can't change himself ever without giving away what truly define him - his Pride. He was created that way, his Pride was part of him from the moment the Creator willed Him into the Existence. Morningstar is an Angel - which means he don't have a Soul nor free will. What he has is a Pride and Will of Iron - he would never change his path, will never withdraw and never change. He was created according to Dream to bring the Light into the Darkness wasn't he? His true Fall was the Arrogance that was born from his Pride. He wanted the Creator to be proud of him but the Creator doesn't posses the Pride, or if he has it he is proud of all things equally. Lucifer wanted to be unique and in time to be on par with the Creator. He became jealous of the Mankind because they have what he and other angels don't and he defined himself as Evil so he could be something that didn't exist before. He failed - the Mankind showed him that free will can make them better at Evil than an Angel would ever be so he left. He is trying to get away from his Creator and his Creation so he could be Uniqe and on his own, but he will fail as well - he is part of Creation and so he is carrying his Creator where ever he goes. That is his Curse and Blessing - to carry the Light of Creation into the Darkness so the God could cry 'Be a Light!'
 
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Actually, that's not quite accurate here. Lucifer rebelled because he resented Yahweh for having created him, which is a debt he could never repay. Essentially, Lucifer desires to be his own creator. That way he would be bound by nothing save himself. As he said to Yahweh when they spoke outside of Creation: "You still made me. That doesn't get any easier to bear."

And then, of course, there was their brief talk about Son Goku and the Buddha.


 
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So what would make Lucifer happy is if he could somehow create the Creator himself? Even that would probably not be enough ...
 
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Hey everyone! Just doing a bit of thread revival to share this excellent piece I commissioned from @TheOneMoiderah! He made a fantastic rendition of Lucifer mockingly kneeling before Homura, and I wanted to share it with you all! Be sure to send kudos his way, because this is seriously great work.
 
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Having just gone back through this, I found one thing I'm surprised neither myself nor anyone else appears to have noticed: that at the end, Madoka gave Lucifer hope. There's just something appropriate about that.
 
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